The Run Game

[JoeyFlex5]

On 9/18/2016 at 5:42 PM, K-Dog said:

Ray was pretty awful his last season here.

Just another point to consider. 

Also I reckon there is more than just one reason he is still available. 

yeah ray rice was on thin ice long before the elevator debacle. people forget just how horrible he was in 2013, he couldnt separate himself from freaking bernard pierce and anthony allen, i understand he was hampered by an injury but he was also coming off of 4 straight workhorse-like seasons. it was to be expected. 

at the time of his contract i was very weary, although supportive. i dont believe in paying RBs with a lot of mileage blockbuster contracts.

[allblackraven]

6 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

yeah ray rice was on thin ice long before the elevator debacle. people forget just how horrible he was in 2013, he couldnt separate himself from freaking bernard pierce and anthony allen, i understand he was hampered by an injury but he was also coming off of 4 straight workhorse-like seasons. it was to be expected. 

at the time of his contract i was very weary, although supportive. i dont believe in paying RBs with a lot of mileage blockbuster contracts.

Our RBs were mostly hampered by awful O line in 2013.

[JoeyFlex5]

On 9/18/2016 at 9:31 PM, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

I want to ask a real question here. 

WHY DO WE HAVE A FULLBACK?

I am being serious here, and I like Juice too. 

When you have a fb, dont you normally use one as a lead blocker in the run game? I formation, right? To jam him up the gut to take out the backer, and open a hole, right?

How often do we actually do that? 

Anytime he is out there, its to throw to him as checkdown, right? 

Why do we not use him as a traditional lead blocker, and help the run game? 

fullbacks have a very narrow role. if youre looking for 4.5-5.5 YPC then full time fullbacks are counterproductive unless you run a pure power/gap formation with enough power up front to create a wide open gap, and even then you gotta hope the FB has enough power and awareness to keep the gap clear while picking the right defender at the 2nd level to block, otherwise whatever hole the OL may have opened up, is now clogged with a FB. also, a FB in the backfield typically means one more defender in the box, and makes it easier to get a hat on a hat for the defense and created more clutter. 

also, in a stretch zone scheme which we are (for some reason) still trying to use, a FB has almost no use at all, unless it is stay at the backside of the play and press the backside defender inside to allow for a clearer path to the far-backside lane. there is no designated gap for the FB to shoot in a stretch, its about forcing the overpursuit and the RB finding the crease that opens as a result, there is a huge range of possibility for where the RB could run. 

plain and simple, there is nothing we can do to improve this run game besides: changing personnel on the interior, being less predictable, calling smarter run plays(like running a power/gap scheme), or fielding better rbs because forsett is absolutely done. see if west can get a rhythm because forsett kills a drive every freaking time he touches the ball.

[JoeyFlex5]

4 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

Our RBs were mostly hampered by awful O line in 2013.

thats true and all, but ray rice was horrible in 2013 all on his own. he obviously didnt have his natural running ability due to the injury, but he was also very indecisive and played scared, wouldnt commit, wasnt making defenders miss even when given prime opportunity. 

[allblackraven]

1 minute ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

thats true and all, but ray rice was horrible in 2013 all on his own. he obviously didnt have his natural running ability due to the injury, but he was also very indecisive and played scared, wouldnt commit, wasnt making defenders miss even when given prime opportunity. 

Yep, he wasn't ready at all. He was too big and slow, I still believe due to injury that bothered him for quite a while but even if he was 100%, I don't think he'd do well behind McKinney, who checked out back in party bus with Sweet Pea, Gino, Oher and Shipley. KO was out with injury, too.

[Inqui]

1 hour ago, The Raven said:

So, a recent Sun article quoted John Ogden and Wally Williams as saying that we're running more gap scheme and "tight zone," and less stretch zone.

This is problematic for a number of reasons.

Tight zone is inside zone, and it's just the way it sounds. It's tight. The "wide zone" stretches a defense, the inside zone not so much. There's less room for cutbacks and the holes aren't as wide. The tight zone attacks the A or B gaps, depending on the defensive front. Naturally, it's totally dependent on quality center play. We all know how I feel about our center play. Because the holes are tighter, there's less room for error. Any penetration at all, and the play is wrecked. We could use more double teams to prevent penetration.

Tight zone is also more effective if you're running wide, too, to keep the defense guessing.

That's something I was getting at earlier in this thread. Upgrade Zuttah (ideally sooner rather than later) and that alone will get us closer to that 4.0ypa where you want your running game to be. Problem is that I think Urschel has similar weaknesses (mainly the lack of brute strength to match up against a NT) so he wouldn't be much of an upgrade. So our options before season's end are really to put Jensen in and hope he's able to do a better job, trade for someone like we did for Monroe or start sabotaging fax machines in the other 31 FOs.

[Inqui]

31 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

Yep, he wasn't ready at all. He was too big and slow, I still believe due to injury that bothered him for quite a while but even if he was 100%, I don't think he'd do well behind McKinney, who checked out back in party bus with Sweet Pea, Gino, Oher and Shipley. KO was out with injury, too.

You should know by now that swearing isn't allowed on these forums.  

[The Raven]

52 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

fullbacks have a very narrow role. if youre looking for 4.5-5.5 YPC then full time fullbacks are counterproductive unless you run a pure power/gap formation with enough power up front to create a wide open gap, and even then you gotta hope the FB has enough power and awareness to keep the gap clear while picking the right defender at the 2nd level to block, otherwise whatever hole the OL may have opened up, is now clogged with a FB. also, a FB in the backfield typically means one more defender in the box, and makes it easier to get a hat on a hat for the defense and created more clutter. 

also, in a stretch zone scheme which we are (for some reason) still trying to use, a FB has almost no use at all, unless it is stay at the backside of the play and press the backside defender inside to allow for a clearer path to the far-backside lane. there is no designated gap for the FB to shoot in a stretch, its about forcing the overpursuit and the RB finding the crease that opens as a result, there is a huge range of possibility for where the RB could run. 

plain and simple, there is nothing we can do to improve this run game besides: changing personnel on the interior, being less predictable, calling smarter run plays(like running a power/gap scheme), or fielding better rbs because forsett is absolutely done. see if west can get a rhythm because forsett kills a drive every freaking time he touches the ball.

1. We actually seem to be abandoning the stretch zone, instead focusing on tight zone.

2. It's not uncommon at all for a fullback to be used in a zone scheme. They have a use. Why else would Kubiak use one? Now, we could be smarter about how we use it. Like you suggest, using the fullback to seal the backside is a great idea, and it's something that could help offset the loss of cut blocks. It also helps set up the play action more when you bootleg out. It also tricks linebackers sometimes, acting like a misdirection. 

When I played fullback for a zone team in college, we usually used the fullback to clean up the backside, but sometimes to lead block. On inside zones, we would insert into the uncovered gap to "pick off" any leftover backers. On stretch, we hit the corner and went headhunting for the playside safety 

Just had a thought about the use of a FB in zone. Allows you to block a backer while offensive line focuses on doubles.

2 minutes ago, Inqui said:

That's something I was getting at earlier in this thread. Upgrade Zuttah (ideally sooner rather than later) and that alone will get us closer to that 4.0ypa where you want your running game to be. Problem is that I think Urschel has similar weaknesses (mainly the lack of brute strength to match up against a NT) so he wouldn't be much of an upgrade. So our options before season's end are really to put Jensen in and hope he's able to do a better job, trade for someone like we did for Monroe or start sabotaging fax machines in the other 31 FOs.

Yeh

[Steve0x]

The only way you'll have a successful running game is how well your O-Line is. You see it all depends how well each guy can block and create holes for him to run for yardage. If the O-Line cant protect Flacco what makes you think they can help Forsett to run for long yardage?

[usmccharles]

3 minutes ago, Steve0x said:

The only way you'll have a successful running game is how well your O-Line is. You see it all depends how well each guy can block and create holes for him to run for yardage. If the O-Line cant protect Flacco what makes you think they can help Forsett to run for long yardage?

This is like a John madden explanation 

[JoeyFlex5]

2 hours ago, The Raven said:

1. We actually seem to be abandoning the stretch zone, instead focusing on tight zone.

2. It's not uncommon at all for a fullback to be used in a zone scheme. They have a use. Why else would Kubiak use one? Now, we could be smarter about how we use it. Like you suggest, using the fullback to seal the backside is a great idea, and it's something that could help offset the loss of cut blocks. It also helps set up the play action more when you bootleg out. It also tricks linebackers sometimes, acting like a misdirection. 

When I played fullback for a zone team in college, we usually used the fullback to clean up the backside, but sometimes to lead block. On inside zones, we would insert into the uncovered gap to "pick off" any leftover backers. On stretch, we hit the corner and went headhunting for the playside safety 

Just had a thought about the use of a FB in zone. Allows you to block a backer while offensive line focuses on doubles.

Yeh

i was pointing out why we dont seem to use juice much as a lead blocker like he was suggesting, weve used mainly the stretch(with a bit of inside last year) for the past 2 years which is why he isnt out there playing like vonta leach. i know were using inside zone now which i think is basically a broken scheme that should be scrapped in most cases, also i think a FB is even less useful in a inside zone because they at least can have a legit role in a stretch(although that role is typically left for a TE) and in an inside zone it seems they would just bring a ton of clutter to an already cluttered play. like i just honestly dont see where a FB would be anymore than a hindrance in an inside zone, if you have 2 or 3 possible lanes you can take, which are likely very tight lanes, in a very tightly packed LoS area, that fullback would have to hope like hell he isnt plugging the wrong lane and hope he stays out of the RBs way for when a lane does open up, seems like it would be too much a guessing game, leave the FB to just plugging the backside or lead blocking in gap schemes in my opinion. 

also wanna say that i think we are only 1 good lineman away from being able to have success in both an inside zone(which i feel is tough to find success in) and a power gap scheme. say next season we find a really high end interior guy, whether a center or guard, and say ryan jensen finds consistency, and alex lewis moves to RT where i believe he will perform better than he does at G. currently, our C is playing horrible and very weak and is lost in a system that doesnt work for him, our LG is a rookie who is too tall to get the drive against DTs and NTs that he needs but has the footwork and power to be very successful at RT in either system, and our RT seems to lack the power to drive defenders off the ball.. wagner most likely leaving will put lewis out there at RT, find a good guard or center to replace lewis at LG, let jensen play C and get some nastiness in the middle and he has decent feet as well, suddenly were looking at a reshuffled line that fits our needs perfectly. dixon could be an elite inside zone runner, i think its without question his best scheme fit, the kid has vision and decisiveness and makes that cut as quickly as any back you can find and explodes upfield, but what separates him is that he can blast through arm tackles in a cluttered front seven when the lane isnt wide open and make defenders miss in the open field, west could be a monster in a power gap scheme because he doesnt have to think, just lower that shoulder and punish anyone who gets in the way, on those snaps where he gets a clear path to the safety at the 5+ yard mark, hes rarely gonna be stopped 1on1 in that situation. the difference a very good center or guard could make for this team is ridiculous, i really hope we find a way to improve these positions in a big way. 

[ALPHA]

^ I agree, for me it always boils down to talent, when you have one or more completely overmatched lineman no amount of work ethic can make up the difference. We flanked Zuttah with the best guard combo in football last season and managed to make up for the year long firesale at LT.

[The Raven]

9 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i was pointing out why we dont seem to use juice much as a lead blocker like he was suggesting, weve used mainly the stretch(with a bit of inside last year) for the past 2 years which is why he isnt out there playing like vonta leach. i know were using inside zone now which i think is basically a broken scheme that should be scrapped in most cases, also i think a FB is even less useful in a inside zone because they at least can have a legit role in a stretch(although that role is typically left for a TE) and in an inside zone it seems they would just bring a ton of clutter to an already cluttered play. like i just honestly dont see where a FB would be anymore than a hindrance in an inside zone, if you have 2 or 3 possible lanes you can take, which are likely very tight lanes, in a very tightly packed LoS area, that fullback would have to hope like hell he isnt plugging the wrong lane and hope he stays out of the RBs way for when a lane does open up, seems like it would be too much a guessing game, leave the FB to just plugging the backside or lead blocking in gap schemes in my opinion. 

also wanna say that i think we are only 1 good lineman away from being able to have success in both an inside zone(which i feel is tough to find success in) and a power gap scheme. say next season we find a really high end interior guy, whether a center or guard, and say ryan jensen finds consistency, and alex lewis moves to RT where i believe he will perform better than he does at G. currently, our C is playing horrible and very weak and is lost in a system that doesnt work for him, our LG is a rookie who is too tall to get the drive against DTs and NTs that he needs but has the footwork and power to be very successful at RT in either system, and our RT seems to lack the power to drive defenders off the ball.. wagner most likely leaving will put lewis out there at RT, find a good guard or center to replace lewis at LG, let jensen play C and get some nastiness in the middle and he has decent feet as well, suddenly were looking at a reshuffled line that fits our needs perfectly. dixon could be an elite inside zone runner, i think its without question his best scheme fit, the kid has vision and decisiveness and makes that cut as quickly as any back you can find and explodes upfield, but what separates him is that he can blast through arm tackles in a cluttered front seven when the lane isnt wide open and make defenders miss in the open field, west could be a monster in a power gap scheme because he doesnt have to think, just lower that shoulder and punish anyone who gets in the way, on those snaps where he gets a clear path to the safety at the 5+ yard mark, hes rarely gonna be stopped 1on1 in that situation. the difference a very good center or guard could make for this team is ridiculous, i really hope we find a way to improve these positions in a big way. 

I definitely agree that the inside zone is a broken -- or at least overly demanding -- scheme. What reasons do you have for it?

My big thing is that, in my opinion, interior runs require vertical movement, not just horizontal. Zone steps don't always put OL in the best position to do that. That was the issue we ran into in 2013 -- too much tight zone, not enough of anything else. And that year, too, we had a crappy center.

It's weird though, because the tight zone is hella successful in college. I just don't see it working as well in the NFL. You really need a Ryan Kalil type to make it work. If we had a quicker LG and a stronger C it'd work

Edited September 25, 2016 by The Raven

[PurpleCity5]

West should be the starter

[Rav'n Maniac]

Well, it was good to see Joe go under center and have the "I" formation set up behind him. Also to see West get 15 on the play.

 

Yes it was only one play and I know that there's little proof that a lead back helps us to gain more yardage. It was good to see though.

[rmcjacket23]

14 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

West should be the starter

I'm not sure the "starter" designation matters. Forsett only has one more carry than West on the season, and West isn't the kind of RB you want handling like 20 carries a game.

[Sami84]

frankly, with dixon, doom and waller on the verge of coming back i think forsett should be an inactive.

[berad]

A lot of things were wrong with Rice in 2013, his 'injury' was a topic all season even though it was pretty minor and it happened in Week 2. He looked heavy and slow, he spent too much time doing bicep curls and bulked up for some reason.

This years running game has a few different issues. The OL is not getting a good push, whether that is because of talent or scheme someone else will have to inform me - it sounds like both. Forsett is looking really bad, West looks more explosive and powerful. And Juice is not being used as much or in the same role.

[757RavensFan]

25 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I'm not sure the "starter" designation matters. Forsett only has one more carry than West on the season, and West isn't the kind of RB you want handling like 20 carries a game.

Curious to know why you feel this way...

[Cawtious]

Stanley - Jensen - Urschel - Yanda - Wagner versus the Raiders.  I think this gives us the lineup for best success right now.  Jensen and Urschel could switch up in this scenario.I would put Zuttah in relief of Jensen/Urschel.  We need more effective run game blocking.  We need a mauler in at LG/C. 

Edited September 26, 2016 by Cawtious
unsubstatiated information

[PurpleCity5]

35 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I'm not sure the "starter" designation matters. Forsett only has one more carry than West on the season, and West isn't the kind of RB you want handling like 20 carries a game.

I don't feel like Forsett has much to offer anymore. I've noticed this year on plenty of 2nd and 2 or 3rd and 3's that Forsett can't really get those extra yards that you need. He just seems to get stopped on first contact while West at least can lead the charge for a little extra. I know that "Starter" doesn't mean much since they have been splitting carries but I really think that its West who should be given more carries. I don't think Forsett would have been involved much yesterday if West didn't have to come out of the game.  

[PurpleCity5]

6 minutes ago, Cawtious said:

Stanley - Jensen - Urschel - Yanda - Wagner versus the Raiders.  I think this gives us the lineup for best success right now.  Jensen and Urschel could switch up in this scenario.  If Lewis is knicked (suspect he had a concussion based on some information I got) and isn't going to suit this game, I would put Zuttah in relief of Jensen/Urschel.  We need more effective run game blocking.  We need a mauler in at LG/C. 

I think Jensen will get the nod at Guard and could keep the job if he excels, but I don't see Urschel being thrown into the fray at C. I would like to see a replacement soon there but I think we would like to wait a bit longer. 

[rmcjacket23]

44 minutes ago, 757RavensFan said:

Curious to know why you feel this way...

Career sub-4 YPC back, and mostly an inside runner. Good complimentary piece, but don't see him making anybody miss. 

 

[rmcjacket23]

32 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I don't feel like Forsett has much to offer anymore. I've noticed this year on plenty of 2nd and 2 or 3rd and 3's that Forsett can't really get those extra yards that you need. He just seems to get stopped on first contact while West at least can lead the charge for a little extra. I know that "Starter" doesn't mean much since they have been splitting carries but I really think that its West who should be given more carries. I don't think Forsett would have been involved much yesterday if West didn't have to come out of the game.  

I agree... I think if Dixon comes back healthy he should largely be phased out of the offense.

I'm saying that, right now, I'm not sure I want West being a 20 carry a game guy and Forsett being like a 5-6 carry a game guy. I don't think you'd see a significant impact on our offense if that happened.

[RayRocks]

6 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I agree... I think if Dixon comes back healthy he should largely be phased out of the offense.

I'm saying that, right now, I'm not sure I want West being a 20 carry a game guy and Forsett being like a 5-6 carry a game guy. I don't think you'd see a significant impact on our offense if that happened.

Agree.  I think the best combination for our RB's would be 10-12 a game for West, 8-10 for Dixon and 5-10 for Forsett.  The biggest issue with phasing out Forsett a little is that I think he understands our pass protection scheme the most.  He still adds value to the offense because of that, but as a runner he just isn't where he was 2 years ago.

[Cillmatic]

 

Still haven't seen much life in the run game, little concerning.

[balfan23]

While neither West nor Forsett seem to be showing any flash, I am not sure Dixon is going to be able to come in and be the savior for the run game. The issue IMO is due to poor line play more so than it is an issue of a lack of explosion in the RB group. The o line issues are manifesting themselves beyond the run game ... late in yesterday's game, their inability to protect Joe and the costly penalties ... they are all indicators that the o line is not clicking. 

When you see Yanda having these issues shows that the entire line is just not functioning as it needs to. So while I'm excited for Dixon to return, I'm more interested in seeing if there will be any sort of shake-up on the o line (but not that we have a wide range of options). 

[Sami84]

10 minutes ago, balfan23 said:

While neither West nor Forsett seem to be showing any flash, I am not sure Dixon is going to be able to come in and be the savior for the run game. The issue IMO is due to poor line play more so than it is an issue of a lack of explosion in the RB group. The o line issues are manifesting themselves beyond the run game ... late in yesterday's game, their inability to protect Joe and the costly penalties ... they are all indicators that the o line is not clicking. 

When you see Yanda having these issues shows that the entire line is just not functioning as it needs to. So while I'm excited for Dixon to return, I'm more interested in seeing if there will be any sort of shake-up on the o line (but not that we have a wide range of options). 

 

wouldnt shock me if we did a mid season trade for a center..

maybe if the jets are out of contention we could get nick mangold?

[letitgosometimes]

Ravens will continue to develop their run-block game.  Expect to see Dixon lead the pack if he is healthy.  Power running out of the I-formation will allow the lead back to block versus the single back formation.   The team that can run the ball stands tall. 

[The Raven]

Alright