The Run Game

[reed20]

I honestly think that it has been enough time.. call me crazy and desperate for a run game.

[Crabcakes&Football]

I'd love to see it Rice finish his career here with dignity 1st, and help our team win 2nd; but unfortunately that ship has long since sailed.

[K-Dog]

Ray was pretty awful his last season here.

Just another point to consider. 

Also I reckon there is more than just one reason he is still available. 

[Moderator 3]

There's already a thread on The Run Game.  This belongs there.

[reed20]

Im all for Dixon like the rest of you but the majority of the blame falls on the O line.

[jdynamite]

Well I was a bit too optimistic last week lol.  After 2 weeks of football, this rushing offense looks similar to the old Manning Colts teams Post -Edgerrin James years. When Addai, D.Brown tip toeing to the line from shotgun. And when they finally got real handoffs they ran east-west rather than north-south. 

If the offense had any actual rhythm during drives then maybe those shotgun runs could be effective after spreading out the defense. But the offense kind of sputters along. 

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

I want to ask a real question here. 

WHY DO WE HAVE A FULLBACK?

I am being serious here, and I like Juice too. 

When you have a fb, dont you normally use one as a lead blocker in the run game? I formation, right? To jam him up the gut to take out the backer, and open a hole, right?

How often do we actually do that? 

Anytime he is out there, its to throw to him as checkdown, right? 

Why do we not use him as a traditional lead blocker, and help the run game? 

[The Raven]

9 minutes ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

I want to ask a real question here. 

WHY DO WE HAVE A FULLBACK?

I am being serious here, and I like Juice too. 

When you have a fb, dont you normally use one as a lead blocker in the run game? I formation, right? To jam him up the gut to take out the backer, and open a hole, right?

How often do we actually do that? 

Anytime he is out there, its to throw to him as checkdown, right? 

Why do we not use him as a traditional lead blocker, and help the run game? 

Because having a fullback on the field adds no statistical advantage to a team's average yard per carry.

Seriously. Teams tend to have the same YPC in 11 personnel as they do in 21 and 12. It's a common misconception that a fullback actually helps. In fact, sometimes they make things worse. If an offense comes out in 11 personnel, there's six defenders in the box. If they come out in 21, there's seven defenders in the box. It clogs the running lanes more. The fewer bodies, the more open space in the box. 

What a fullback provides these days is a potential mismatch as a receiving threat. Juice can outrun many backers and bowl over most safeties. I'd like to use him more at tight end or in the slot to improve our unpredictability and utilize him more. If you can frequently utilize a FB as a receiver and demonstrate that you can pass effectively out of the I-formation, it could help things, but a fullback just doesn't help things that much. Juice just gives us the ability to have a few more personnel groupings that defenses have to prepare for.

Edited September 19, 2016 by The Raven

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

4 minutes ago, The Raven said:

Because having a fullback on the field adds no statistical advantage to a team's average yard per carry.

Seriously. Teams tend to have the same YPC in 11 personnel as they do in 21 and 12. It's a common misconception that a fullback actually helps. In fact, sometimes they make things worse. If an offense comes out in 11 personnel, there's six defenders in the box. If they come out in 21, there's seven defenders in the box. It clogs the running lanes more. The fewer bodies, the more open space in the box. 

What a fullback provides these days is a potential mismatch as a receiving threat. Juice can outrun many backers and bowl over most safeties. I'd like to use him more at tight end or in the slot to improve our unpredictability and utilize him more. If you can frequently utilize a FB as a receiver and demonstrate that you can pass effectively out of the I-formation, it could help things, but a fullback just doesn't help things that much. Juice just gives us the ability to have a few more personnel groupings that defenses have to prepare for.

I hear you. But it would seem to me, tgat if we actually used him more as a lead blocker, it would possibly make us more unpredictable in the passing game. Why not just leave him in a series, with 28 or 29, try and get the running game going with him, then play action off that. 

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

I would like the backs to actually get into some kind of rhythm, I think keeping Juice in there instead of constantly shuffling in different packages every play, might be something worth doing.

[terps85]

Forsett is a strict zone stretch back.  He has incredible vision, but cannot create anything.  Dixon should come back and be the lead guy no question.  Still think Forsett is cut for real if Dixon didn't get hurt.

I like West a lot, but he seems like just a plodding back.  At least he makes a guy miss every once in a while though.

The offense has SO much exciting young talent with Dixon, Perriman, Moore, Crockett, Maxx, and even Aiken.

[The Raven]

19 minutes ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

I hear you. But it would seem to me, tgat if we actually used him more as a lead blocker, it would possibly make us more unpredictable in the passing game. Why not just leave him in a series, with 28 or 29, try and get the running game going with him, then play action off that. 

Trust me I hear you on that. I'm an advocate for using your base personnel in a variety of different ways and formations. When you have backs like Juice, West, and Forsett, with tight ends like we have, I think we need to utilize them more. Juice could be a much bigger weapon than he is imo.

[Inqui]

Two weeks in and we're at 3.0ypa so far. Over the next two or three weeks that'll start to even out to show what we're really like (no way the Raiders end the season with 6.4ypa) and Dallas are at 3.4ypa so we don't necessarily need to hit the panic button and blow up the OL yet, but I still think we need to look at upgrading Zuttah if we can. The rookies should improve and I think the jury's still out on Wagner, but I'd like to see if Jensen's an upgrade over Zuttah.

I know Forsett's getting a bit of hate atm, but he's logging 3.3ypa this season against 4.2ypa last year. I know he's 30, but he hasn't had an awful lot of carries in his career so a drop-off that dramatic suggests something's going on up front. Fwiw, Terrance West is averaging 3.2ypa, so I think Joe (understandably) playing a little tentative and giving himself up will knock the average a little too.

[RayRocks]

Using Flacco in the shotgun has definitely helped him to get the ball out faster, but I think it's also a major reason the run game is struggling.  The (stupid) pitch plays that they're running take too long to develop AND don't fool the defense at all.  

I think the obvious correction here is to start putting Flacco under center more, so we can start using the play action and Juice for 5-10 snaps a game at his true position (FB).  This will help make the offense more unpredictable.

I think there's a chance that for the first few games, they wanted to get him in the shotgun as much as possible to get him comfortable playing again, but there's no way they can expect to have him playing out of the shotgun this often for the entire season.

[terrynjulia03]

Forsett had 4.8 ypc last year but he also only had 2 TDs in 10 games. Averaging 3.3 this year. Shouldn't have brought him back. Once Allen is ready I think he gets the starts with West as the 2, or should say that's what needs to happen. 

[GrimCoconut]

What run game?

[Jonah DeVito]

Seeing the running game struggle is very concerning for me. Does anyone know what we will do with Talieferro when he gets off the PUP list? Or if he is healthy yet? If he can stay healthy I believe he can be a huge weapon for the Ravens, that man is a bruiser. I have not heard anything about him since being put on regular season pup, however. 

[jboy19]

15 minutes ago, Jonah DeVito said:

Seeing the running game struggle is very concerning for me. Does anyone know what we will do with Talieferro when he gets off the PUP list? Or if he is healthy yet? If he can stay healthy I believe he can be a huge weapon for the Ravens, that man is a bruiser. I have not heard anything about him since being put on regular season pup, however. 

I expect he'll just go on IR unless something happens to West or Forsett. 

[ALPHA]

Nobody should be surprised our run game is bad, we replaced KO with a 4th round rookie.

[rmcjacket23]

6 minutes ago, ALPHA said:

Nobody should be surprised our run game is bad, we replaced KO with a 4th round rookie.

And for the gigantic price difference between the two, we made the right decision.

Plus, he's one of five offensive lineman. No offensive lineman on the planet is single handily good enough to carry a rushing attack.

 

Edited September 22, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[jazz1988]

8 hours ago, ALPHA said:

Nobody should be surprised our run game is bad, we replaced KO with a 4th round rookie.

Even last year the run game wasn't all that great and K.O was still on the team..I think Trestman can be too predictable at times when calling run plays.Marshal Yanda himself said The Ravens offensive line isn't using  the zone blocking scheme as heavy as they have in the past and I guess he meant when Gary Kubiak was around . The Ravens rushing attack was one of the best in the league when the offense line  use primarily the zone blocking scheme in 2014.

I don't get why Juan Castillo wouldnt stick with what works .

[Inqui]

21 minutes ago, jazz1988 said:

Even last year the run game wasn't all that great and K.O was still on the team..I think Trestman can be too predictable at times when calling run plays.Marshal Yanda himself said The Ravens offensive line isn't using  the zone blocking scheme as heavy as they have in the past and I guess he meant when Gary Kubiak was around . The Ravens rushing attack was one of the best in the league when the offense line  use primarily the zone blocking scheme in 2014.

I don't get why Juan Castillo wouldnt stick with what works .

Despite the injuries we had 3.9ypa last year, where 4.0ypa would have gotten us tied for 16th in the league. Not taking the league by storm for sure, but not dismal by any stretch.

[ALPHA]

14 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

And for the gigantic price difference between the two, we made the right decision.

Plus, he's one of five offensive lineman. No offensive lineman on the planet is single handily good enough to carry a rushing attack.

 

Did we? we have no discernible ground game and barely beat the Browns. I'm not arguing for or against KO I'm saying our oline has been downgraded.

[Ravens4Real]

The Ravens were one of the teams that excelled at the zone blocking scheme because cut blocking at the line was still allowed. Now that you can no longer cut on the back side, our run game has gone down the tubes.

[January J]

On 9/18/2016 at 11:35 PM, terrynjulia03 said:

Forsett had 4.8 ypc last year but he also only had 2 TDs in 10 games. Averaging 3.3 this year. Shouldn't have brought him back. Once Allen is ready I think he gets the starts with West as the 2, or should say that's what needs to happen. 

Once Allen is ready? You know he's healthy right? I'm assuming you meant Dixon. 

[rmcjacket23]

4 hours ago, ALPHA said:

Did we? we have no discernible ground game and barely beat the Browns. I'm not arguing for or against KO I'm saying our oline has been downgraded.

Did you not expect it to be downgraded? Did you think replacing one of the better Guards in the league in a single offseason would be easy? 

This sounds more like a personal expectation problem than anything else. We turned over 40% of our offensive line with two rookies and people are just not noticing that maybe, just maybe, the offensive line isn't quite as good?

All comes back to reasonable expectations and cost. 

Edited September 23, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[Ravensuperfan1]

our running game is awful

[ALPHA]

12 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Did you not expect it to be downgraded? Did you think replacing one of the better Guards in the league in a single offseason would be easy? 

This sounds more like a personal expectation problem than anything else. We turned over 40% of our offensive line with two rookies and people are just not noticing that maybe, just maybe, the offensive line isn't quite as good?

All comes back to reasonable expectations and cost. 

I'm not debating any position I'm saying our problems stem from a huge downgrade in talent.

[rmcjacket23]

9 hours ago, ALPHA said:

I'm not debating any position I'm saying our problems stem from a huge downgrade in talent.

Can't really say that definitively... especially after two games. Center, where we've had the same player for years, has been our biggest weakness thus far by far. The drop off in ONE offensive lineman production at LG isn't anywhere big enough to warrant these kinds of struggles alone.

Changes in cut blocking rules has had a major impact I think, as well as just pure execution of blocking techniques by the entire offensive line.

I wouldn't say talent downgrade would top even the top 2-3 reasons why we can't run the ball.

[The Raven]

So, a recent Sun article quoted John Ogden and Wally Williams as saying that we're running more gap scheme and "tight zone," and less stretch zone.

This is problematic for a number of reasons.

Tight zone is inside zone, and it's just the way it sounds. It's tight. The "wide zone" stretches a defense, the inside zone not so much. There's less room for cutbacks and the holes aren't as wide. The tight zone attacks the A or B gaps, depending on the defensive front. Naturally, it's totally dependent on quality center play. We all know how I feel about our center play. Because the holes are tighter, there's less room for error. Any penetration at all, and the play is wrecked. We could use more double teams to prevent penetration.

Tight zone is also more effective if you're running wide, too, to keep the defense guessing.