The Run Game

[Davesta]

We avg 3.3 yards on 24 (real) carries. Are you guys worried about our run game? Did Rex do stuff to stop the run first? How do you guys see us fixing it and which RB will emerge to take the lead back role? 

[The Raven]

I'm very afraid. Wagner did not look good. Alex Lewis has to make progress. Yanda had an off day but I'm not concerned with him otherwise. Zuttah is a bum.

If we keep struggling, I wouldn't be surprised to see us blow up the line and try something. Stanley - Urschel - Jensen - Yanda - Lewis is a lineup that I think has some potential if Wagner and Zuttah keep holding us back. With Wagner in a contract year and Zuttah chronically falling short of expectations, I wouldn't be shocked if this was our lineup next year.

Obviously we need to wait a couple weeks before making concrete conclusions, but what I saw was a continuation of last year's horrid run game. I don't know what the issue is, because everyone on this line has shown promise, but something just isn't gelling. Part of me is thinking Trestman is trying too hard to make us a gap scheme running team. Wagner and Zuttah ain't built for that.

[Tru11]

3 hours ago, The Raven said:

I'm very afraid. Wagner did not look good. Alex Lewis has to make progress. Yanda had an off day but I'm not concerned with him otherwise. Zuttah is a bum.

If we keep struggling, I wouldn't be surprised to see us blow up the line and try something. Stanley - Urschel - Jensen - Yanda - Lewis is a lineup that I think has some potential if Wagner and Zuttah keep holding us back. With Wagner in a contract year and Zuttah chronically falling short of expectations, I wouldn't be shocked if this was our lineup next year.

Obviously we need to wait a couple weeks before making concrete conclusions, but what I saw was a continuation of last year's horrid run game. I don't know what the issue is, because everyone on this line has shown promise, but something just isn't gelling. Part of me is thinking Trestman is trying too hard to make us a gap scheme running team. Wagner and Zuttah ain't built for that.

you think it might be related to the new cut block rules?

[BALTIMOREFLACCO]

Wait til Dixon plays

[RaineV1]

4 hours ago, BALTIMOREFLACCO said:

Wait til Dixon plays

This is the same attitude I have right now. I think Dixon is the future of our running game, and the guy that can make the most out of his attempts.

[The Raven]

20 hours ago, Tru11 said:

you think it might be related to the new cut block rules?

Definitely. Cut blocks made it easier for weak linemen to seal the backside, which is a necessity in the zone game.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

Pound it up the gut, again, and again, till they dont want it anymore. When the safeties start creeping into the box, burn them deep, suck them in, and play action, screens when we stretch the field, and safeties are deep, keep the audibles coming Joe, take what the D gives you.

[balfan23]

35 minutes ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

Pound it up the gut, again, and again, till they dont want it anymore. When the safeties start creeping into the box, burn them deep, suck them in, and play action, screens when we stretch the field, and safeties are deep, keep the audibles coming Joe, take what the D gives you.

Ha ... you are really trying to live up to your name with that game plan ...  That's an old school smash ball approach right there!

[AppStRavenfan]

Not really, this is a real case where stats don't tell the full story

I saw Forsett gashing off nice runs through some nice gaps and some not-so-nice gaps - he averaged over 4 per carry. West was ok, he's a hit and miss runner, he'll break off a 7 yarder then get stopped for no gain, he's bull ahead for tough yards, then get tackled for a loss.

To be honest we didn't run THAT much, 24 over 4 different players is miniscule for what we usually do and for some reason we gave Forsett less carries than West which I don't get at all since he was doing better from the start. Considering we only carried two backs into the game I don't think we ever had any intention on running the ball much - Also don't sleep on the Bills' front 7, even without Dareus they're pretty darn solid up front and we were starting two rookies and the other three all had bad games, even Yanda. Our run game should be fine if we're smarter about it, Forsett should be getting more carries than West and we should be running more often regardless to open up the play action. Also, I swear if Trestman keeps running runs from the shotgun I am going to go nuts, seriously it felt like those were the runs that really cost our average - I don't remember a single time one of those runs was particularly successful.

Edited September 14, 2016 by AppStRavenfan

[Maryland]

On 9/13/2016 at 2:03 AM, BALTIMOREFLACCO said:

Wait til Dixon plays

I'm thinking Dixon becomes that smooth receiver-like RB that Trestman had at Chicago. West and Forsett really aren't great receivers; they each seem kind of awkward/slow catching the ball.

[jdynamite]

I'm not worried about the run game early on both West and Forsett had decent gains on runs, but it seemed like a lot of runs were on 2nd and long, during the game feed I remember saying well it's 2nd and 10, bet it's another shotgun run. 

I looked at the play-by-play to see how many shotgun runs we actually had and what we did on them.

10 actual shotgun runs ( 1 holding penalty would have been 11th )   Figured avg of 4.0 ypc is reasonable expectation  

3 runs went for 0 gain 

4 runs went for less than 4 yards (3,3,2,3) 

3 runs went for more than 4 yards (6,10,5)

West - 6 car. 24 yds ( 4.0 )

Forsett 4 car. 8yds ( 2.0) 

Surprise me that west had better average. 

Never really went to any power running to me, probably could have helped the Oline settle in better if they got to knock some guys off the ball early running...  

 

Plus when Dixon returns he'll also be a boost to the run game. 

 

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

19 hours ago, jdynamite said:

 

19 hours ago, jdynamite said:

Never really went to any power running to me, probably could have helped the Oline settle in better if they got to knock some guys off the ball early running... 

 

Exactly....what do O lineman like to do?  Knock Dlineman and backers off the ball....it clearly looked to me like we were afraid to pound it right down their throat, not even with Juice on a 3rd and 1, I thought that was weak....lets man up the run game fellas, stop trying to run sideways all the time

 

 

 

 

[The Raven]

18 minutes ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

 

Exactly....what do O lineman like to do?  Knock Dlineman and backers off the ball....it clearly looked to me like we were afraid to pound it right down their throat, not even with Juice on a 3rd and 1, I thought that was weak....lets man up the run game fellas, stop trying to run sideways all the time

 

 

 

 

Yeah, let's run the ball hard hard, and if that doesn't work, let's run the ball harder.

[jdynamite]

10 hours ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

 

Exactly....what do O lineman like to do?  Knock Dlineman and backers off the ball....it clearly looked to me like we were afraid to pound it right down their throat, not even with Juice on a 3rd and 1, I thought that was weak....lets man up the run game fellas, stop trying to run sideways all the time

 

 

 

 

Yeah all the lateral running drives me crazy, even after short passes guys don't seem to run North/South.  

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Zone running is real difficult now thanks to cut blocking being eliminated. 

We have built for a few years with a zone scheme in mind, that same scheme is now becoming obsolete. 

The players we brought along are not good at the other option, which is man power schemes. 

We need a more powerful center and Wagner needs to get back to old form.

[Edgar]

On 9/12/2016 at 10:34 PM, The Raven said:

I'm very afraid. Wagner did not look good. Alex Lewis has to make progress. Yanda had an off day but I'm not concerned with him otherwise. Zuttah is a bum.

If we keep struggling, I wouldn't be surprised to see us blow up the line and try something. Stanley - Urschel - Jensen - Yanda - Lewis is a lineup that I think has some potential if Wagner and Zuttah keep holding us back. With Wagner in a contract year and Zuttah chronically falling short of expectations, I wouldn't be shocked if this was our lineup next year.

Obviously we need to wait a couple weeks before making concrete conclusions, but what I saw was a continuation of last year's horrid run game. I don't know what the issue is, because everyone on this line has shown promise, but something just isn't gelling. Part of me is thinking Trestman is trying too hard to make us a gap scheme running team. Wagner and Zuttah ain't built for that.

The line change you suggest is interesting. It always struck me that Lewis was drafted to replace Wagner....next year. provided he would hold up on the right side (Lewis),

I like that line-up. side note; 

I would like to see Stanley stay on back side blocks a little longer going forward. I've noticed guys coming across and getting in on tackles when he initially has them sealed.

[Tiznut]

On September 12, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Davesta said:

We avg 3.3 yards on 24 (real) carries. Are you guys worried about our run game? Did Rex do stuff to stop the run first? How do you guys see us fixing it and which RB will emerge to take the lead back role? 

Nope. Not worried because it's just one game and the running game wasn't the focus of the game plan. 

[ellicottraven]

Trust Forsett to carry the majority of the load. He's good enough to break a few long ones and keep the average up. He's got the best vision of the entire group right now. Split carries now between Forsett, West and Allen in this ratio: Forsett 50, West 30 and Allen 20. Once Dixon gets back split carries in this ratio: Forsett 40, Dixon 40, West 20. And we'll be good as gold.

[Somerset Ravens]

I think our run game getting off to a slow start has more to do with our starters playing so little in the preseason. I understand our concern for injuries but it restricts our offensive efficiency at the beginning of the season. We will get better.

[The Raven]

6 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Zone running is real difficult now thanks to cut blocking being eliminated. 

We have built for a few years with a zone scheme in mind, that same scheme is now becoming obsolete. 

The players we brought along are not good at the other option, which is man power schemes. 

We need a more powerful center and Wagner needs to get back to old form.

Well, the interesting thing to me is that Alex Lewis - in my view - is a much better fit for the gap scheme. He doesn't have the super quick feet that you like to see in zone guys, but he has power to his game. Jensen, too, is a better gap scheme guy to me. I think we got lucky with Stanley, because I'm convinced he can do both zone and gap.

I prefer gap scheme -- it makes life easier for running backs. It lets them go north south more easily. However, it makes life a lot harder for offensive lines. Gap scheme runs are easier to blow up, because there aren't designed cut back lanes. If you run Iso and the defense calls an A gap blitz, well, you better pray that your full back can plow a guy. Blitzes also cause confusion for the blocking scheme. Gap schemes block every front differently. Zone blocking keeps the assignments the same, it's just different footwork. 

I also have concerns that college linemen aren't big and strong enough to adequately run gap schemes. I mean, look at Urschel and Wagner. They aren't the road graders you need in a gap scheme.

Edited September 15, 2016 by The Raven

[JoeyFlex5]

On 9/15/2016 at 4:23 PM, The Raven said:

Well, the interesting thing to me is that Alex Lewis - in my view - is a much better fit for the gap scheme. He doesn't have the super quick feet that you like to see in zone guys, but he has power to his game. Jensen, too, is a better gap scheme guy to me. I think we got lucky with Stanley, because I'm convinced he can do both zone and gap.

I prefer gap scheme -- it makes life easier for running backs. It lets them go north south more easily. However, it makes life a lot harder for offensive lines. Gap scheme runs are easier to blow up, because there aren't designed cut back lanes. If you run Iso and the defense calls an A gap blitz, well, you better pray that your full back can plow a guy. Blitzes also cause confusion for the blocking scheme. Gap schemes block every front differently. Zone blocking keeps the assignments the same, it's just different footwork. 

I also have concerns that college linemen aren't big and strong enough to adequately run gap schemes. I mean, look at Urschel and Wagner. They aren't the road graders you need in a gap scheme.

we drafted lewis after the rule change was announced so that may have played factor, we may have figured that its time to get back to road grading powerful linemen, which we have had for most of our existence, but when castillo came and implemented the zone we changed our philosophy in linemen, you can see it with guys like urschel and zuttah, robert myers may have been an experimental pick thinking his footwork was a good foundation for zone blocking. 

we arent far off, stanley is adequate but lacks the real mauling ability, not a slouch though, alex lewis can become a very good road grader at either guard or maybe even RT depending on how he improves his pass pro, yanda obviously although we need to begin to prepare for his exit, and then wagner who was an incredible zone RT but just doesnt get the same push in a gap scheme and i wonder if the lisfranc has anything to do with it, he may not feel comfortable on the balls of his feet anymore. 

next year, if lewis shows he is a legit RT, and jensen gets his inconsistencies worked out, then we will have a nasty mauling line, and with the awesome interior OL class next draft im thinking we really stock up on some guys and let wagner and zuttah go and let urschel walk when his contract is due as well, i could see 2 G/C prospects drafted in rounds 2-4 and another free agent signing. if things pan out, id LOVE to see a line of stanley-jensen-pocic(LSU)-yanda-lewis. the weakest spot on that line would be the LG pass protection but he is bookended by great pass protectors, there is no weakness in the run game there.

i know, too early to look at the draft... but i do anyway lol

[The Raven]

Finally got around to watching last week's game with sober eyes, and I put our run game struggles on two guys primarily: Alex Lewis and Jeremy Zuttah. Both of  them were frequently blown into the backfield, both missed blocks, and both failed to move their guys. Poor performance from those two.

[The Raven]

5 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

we drafted lewis after the rule change was announced so that may have played factor, we may have figured that its time to get back to road grading powerful linemen, which we have had for most of our existence, but when castillo came and implemented the zone we changed our philosophy in linemen, you can see it with guys like urschel and zuttah, robert myers may have been an experimental pick thinking his footwork was a good foundation for zone blocking. 

we arent far off, stanley is adequate but lacks the real mauling ability, not a slouch though, alex lewis can become a very good road grader at either guard or maybe even RT depending on how he improves his pass pro, yanda obviously although we need to begin to prepare for his exit, and then wagner who was an incredible zone RT but just doesnt get the same push in a gap scheme and i wonder if the lisfranc has anything to do with it, he may not feel comfortable on the balls of his feet anymore. 

next year, if lewis shows he is a legit RT, and jensen gets his inconsistencies worked out, then we will have a nasty mauling line, and with the awesome interior OL class next draft im thinking we really stock up on some guys and let wagner and zuttah go and let urschel walk when his contract is due as well, i could see 2 G/C prospects drafted in rounds 2-4 and another free agent signing. if things pan out, id LOVE to see a line of stanley-jensen-pocic(LSU)-yanda-lewis. the weakest spot on that line would be the LG pass protection but he is bookended by great pass protectors, there is no weakness in the run game there.

i know, too early to look at the draft... but i do anyway lol

I think we saw Kelechi Osemele 2.0 with Robert Myers. A big massive man with surprising athleticism and movement ability. It's a shame we lost him because I think he could have prospered under Castillo.

 I think we are indeed looking back at getting the maulers, but it's tough to tell right now. I worry that there aren't a whole lot of gap blockers left to draft these days.

We're in a weird time where the zone scheme is becoming less effective but gap/man blocking linemen are harder to find. And the maulers that are out there are somewhat immobile, making it difficult to get to the second level or run any kind of outside run. As defenses are always getting faster, you can see why this would be an issue.

As for Urschel, I could see him as a gap blocking guard. He's effective as a puller, and I remember his ability to trap block impressed me in college. But I would prefer Jensen there, with some mean SOB at center.

Edit: It says a lot to me that Urschel is a healthy scratch today, giving the start to the rookie Alex Lewis.

Edited September 18, 2016 by The Raven

[The Raven]

After today's game it's evident to me that we need to see more gap blocking. We were terrible on zone runs today. Our best runs came off power runs, particularly when Yanda pulled or trapped.

[JoeyFlex5]

Forsett and predictability is our problem. 

Forsett to the bench, run gaps between the guard and tackle, not zuttah, start pulling blockers like you do in a true power scheme, stop using TEs for misdirection and use them for blocking. That 3rd and 2 run where they pulled maxx to the backside was the dumbest play I've ever seen, too much fancy nonsense that does absolutely nothing.

[The Raven]

1 minute ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Forsett and predictability is our problem. 

Forsett to the bench, run gaps between the guard and tackle, not zuttah, start pulling blockers like you do in a true power scheme, stop using TEs for misdirection and use them for blocking. That 3rd and 2 run where they pulled maxx to the backside was the dumbest play I've ever seen, too much fancy nonsense that does absolutely nothing.

It does more than you think. It's a staple of the zone scheme. The offensive line moves one way, and the tight end trap blocks the end man on the opposite side. If executed quickly and with precision, it opens up a huge cut back lane. The issue was the execution, not the scheme.

[Militant X 1]

2 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Forsett and predictability is our problem. 

Forsett to the bench, run gaps between the guard and tackle, not zuttah, start pulling blockers like you do in a true power scheme, stop using TEs for misdirection and use them for blocking. That 3rd and 2 run where they pulled maxx to the backside was the dumbest play I've ever seen, too much fancy nonsense that does absolutely nothing.

I agree!  What I've been seeing from Forsett is unacceptable.  In a term that many cats in here love to use...."He's not the answer!"

[reed20]

He's available. Im just saying..

[757RavensFan]

He would be behind Forsett, West, and Dixon.  Just no. 

[reed20]

Just now, 757RavensFan said:

He would be behind Forsett, West, and Dixon.  Just no. 

We would never sign rice again but even if we did it would never be to back up 3 players