Should Jensen and Urschel replace Lewis and Zuttah respectively?

[Cawtious]

7 minutes ago, Rav'n Maniac said:

I try to respect everyone's opinion all the time. This is yours, that's fine.

Just to clarify, you say that because a player has more experience and the team is paying them a larger amount of money that they are entitled to play, even though their performance is not meeting the teams expectations of the position.

OK

I did not say they were entitled. Those are your words.  I believe it does factor into the decision, all things being close to equal.  No backup player is a complete lateral move.....each player has tendencies and abilities that may be different than the player in front of them.  People may want to see Jensen because he is perceived as being a better run blocker.  It doesn't mean that he is a better overall choice right now than Zuttah.  But in considering who is the starter, the money being paid is a consideration that could tip the nod to start in that player's favor.

 

 

[Rav'n Maniac]

1 minute ago, Cawtious said:

I did not say they were entitled. Those are your words.  I believe it does factor into the decision, all things being close to equal.  No backup player is a complete lateral move.....each player has tendencies and abilities that may be different than the player in front of them.  People may want to see Jensen because he is perceived as being a better run blocker.  It doesn't mean that he is a better overall choice right now than Zuttah.  But in considering who is the starter, the money being paid is a consideration that could tip the nod to start in that player's favor.

 

 

Got ya, now I understand what you were trying to say. Sorry I used the word entitled, i thought that's what you meant.

[Cawtious]

13 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

In theory I'd agree, but no necessarily in this spot. I think the higher paid player gets the benefit of the doubt in the competition, but not necessarily once there's a sample size.

With somebody who you just invested guaranteed long-term money in, I agree with your premise. With a player like Zuttah, who is far, far, far from guaranteed to even be here next year, regardless of performance, I don't think the financial side plays much of a role.

After all, we're extremely likely to be giving more snaps to our two arguably cheapest RBs rather than to Forsett, who certainly costs more. 

I can agree with your points.  But Zuttah has been paid for THIS season and quite well.  Stands to reason that you want to get your money's worth if you can.

[Rav'n Maniac]

58 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

So you want Jensen in over Zuttah (which you did say), but you don't necessarily think he would be an upgrade?

So why are we putting him in again? Why would we bench somebody for another player if we don't think the other player is at least as good if not better?

What does that accomplish? Change just to appease the fans?

Sorry, don't get the logic there.

Man, you really do love to play on words.

I would like to see Jensen, if only for a series or two, to determine if he can perform at a higher level than Zuttah has. No one, including the coaches, knows with any certainty how he would perform in real game situations in comparison without trying him.

There, happy now?

Edited September 28, 2016 by Rav'n Maniac

[jazz1988]

1 hour ago, The Raven said:

Castillo is a zone guy and always has been.

That doesnt make any sense especially if you take in consideration of what Marshal Yanda has said. Yanda himself said weeks ago that they using more than the  zone blocking scheme and haven't been a primarily a zone blocking offensive line since Gary Kubiak left. That doesn't sound like Castillo is azone guy and always been to me especially not primarily.

 

[rmcjacket23]

41 minutes ago, Rav'n Maniac said:

Man, you really do love to play on words.

I would like to see Jensen, if only for a series or two, to determine if he can perform at a higher level than Zuttah has. No one, including the coaches, knows with any certainty how he would perform in real game situations in comparison without trying him.

There, happy now?

Fans have the luxury to make these decisions... coaches don't. Coaches don't have the luxury of just tossing bench guys out there in real-game situations to see "how well they would do". Easily the kinds of decisions that can make a difference between a W and an L, and coaches aren't willing to gamble on that.

Coaches spend the entire offseason (literally) evaluating players. They watch them practice, they watch them play. That's typically the time teams make these determinations.

If they bench Zuttah, its literally because they think Jensen can't do any worse and is likely better. If they don't, it means they still think Zuttah is better, and they see these guys play a lot more than we do.

Have you ever seen an NFL team bench an offensive lineman for a series or two just to see if the backup is any good? 

Edited September 28, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, The Raven said:

If you think nastiness is irrelevant to oline play I'm convinced you don't know what the hell you're talking about on that subject.

"Nasty" is why we chose to pay Yanda and not Grubbs.

Or the guys that starting now is the "nastier" of the two to begin with, since we're talking about, by definition, an inherently subjective description of a player.

Subjective arguments from fans are always irrelevant...

[BmoreBird22]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Or the guys that starting now is the "nastier" of the two to begin with, since we're talking about, by definition, an inherently subjective description of a player.

Subjective arguments from fans are always irrelevant...

You're talking to someone who actually played OL in college, so with him, I don't think it's too irrelevant or subjective... I'd trust his assessment on this subject more than anyone else on the board.

[The Raven]

1 hour ago, jazz1988 said:

That doesnt make any sense especially if you take in consideration of what Marshal Yanda has said. Yanda himself said weeks ago that they using more than the  zone blocking scheme and haven't been a primarily a zone blocking offensive line since Gary Kubiak left. That doesn't sound like Castillo is azone guy and always been to me especially not primarily.

 

It is extremely well documented that Castillo is a zone guy.

If you want to know why we've transitioned away from the stretch, look at the guy who Castillo works for. You might know we've had an OC change.

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Or the guys that starting now is the "nastier" of the two to begin with, since we're talking about, by definition, an inherently subjective description of a player.

Subjective arguments from fans are always irrelevant...

It is definitely subjective, but so is the world of scouting. Even so, it doesn't take more than half a brain to make the simple observation that Jensen is a lot nastier than Zuttah. It was plainly obvious to anyone who paid attention that Yanda was and still is nastier than Grubbs. Having played the sport, I can tell you that nastiness does make a big difference in the trenches.

And, while generally I think the value of toughness in the sport is a tad overrated, nastiness is a legitimate trait that is valued in offensive linemen. After all, it's one of two positions in in football where your sole job is hitting people. Nastiness is important. It sets the tone. It wears down defenses. It makes defenders think twice about their pass rush moves and overall technique. It's particularly important in the run game, where, oh by the way, Zuttah's performance is poor.

The offensive line's only job is to hit people. If you're gonna be really good at it, you better enjoy hurting people and putting their butt on the turf.

You can dismiss my analysis as being subjective if you want, but why bother scouting, analyzing, and talking in a message board if being subjective is objectively wrong?

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

You're talking to someone who actually played OL in college, so with him, I don't think it's too irrelevant or subjective... I'd trust his assessment on this subject more than anyone else on the board.

OL in high school, but still  Thanks for the shout out. 

[BmoreBird22]

8 minutes ago, The Raven said:

OL in high school, but still  Thanks for the shout out. 

You played something in college and I still trust your judgement on the offensive line more than anyone else.

Question, though, regarding switching out Zuttah.

I posted this before, but in the Pro Bowl, we see the offensive lines get beat pretty bad because they do not have chemistry and just don't know how they think as a cohesive unit. Do you think this is the biggest hold up from switching out Zuttah for Jensen?

[The Raven]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

You played something in college and I still trust your judgement on the offensive line more than anyone else.

Question, though, regarding switching out Zuttah.

I posted this before, but in the Pro Bowl, we see the offensive lines get beat pretty bad because they do not have chemistry and just don't know how they think as a cohesive unit. Do you think this is the biggest hold up from switching out Zuttah for Jensen?

I think it's a significant hold up. Although with zone blocking you don't have to worry as much about changing blocking calls -- in the run or the pass game -- there's more chemistry needed in the actual blocking part. But again, I think Jensen's fine there. He plugged right in at LG last week and I noticed no drop off if any. 

I also think that Jensen has struggled with pass protection. With our OC being the pass happy nutcase that he is, I can understand why he'd rather have a better pass blocker in, even if it means sacrificing the run game.

Truth be told, I can't give a firm answer on why Jensen isn't in. The only think that makes sense to me is the chemistry/vet experience argument, but...

[BmoreBird22]

1 minute ago, The Raven said:

I think it's a significant hold up. Although with zone blocking you don't have to worry as much about changing blocking calls -- in the run or the pass game -- there's more chemistry needed in the actual blocking part. But again, I think Jensen's fine there. He plugged right in at LG last week and I noticed no drop off if any. 

I also think that Jensen has struggled with pass protection. With our OC being the pass happy nutcase that he is, I can understand why he'd rather have a better pass blocker in, even if it means sacrificing the run game.

Truth be told, I can't give a firm answer on why Jensen isn't in. The only think that makes sense to me is the chemistry/vet experience argument, but...

The chemistry portion is the only reason that I didn't think that Ozzie would explore a midseason trade, but at this point, I really want the run game to get going.

[The Raven]

1 minute ago, BmoreBird22 said:

The chemistry portion is the only reason that I didn't think that Ozzie would explore a midseason trade, but at this point, I really want the run game to get going.

Once we can run the ball, our pass game will take off in my opinion.

Honestly, I'd consider sliding Jensen in at LG. That's definitely not to say Alex Lewis has been bad, because he's been excellent, but if we're gonna stick with tight zone, we need someone with the phonebooth quickness that Lewis doesn't have.

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, The Raven said:

Once we can run the ball, our pass game will take off in my opinion.

Honestly, I'd consider sliding Jensen in at LG. That's definitely not to say Alex Lewis has been bad, because he's been excellent, but if we're gonna stick with tight zone, we need someone with the phonebooth quickness that Lewis doesn't have.

I suppose we'll get a pretty good look this week because I can't see Lewis coming out of the concussion protocol for this game, honestly.

And I know I've said it before, but he is so damn tall that I don't think the running game will get significantly better with he and Zuttah in there. Just a weak pair to try to run behind. The height/leverage issue is actually a big issue and worry I have with Pocic from LSU.

But with Lewis being a much more natural fit on the outside and Wagner playing really well this season (so far), have to wonder what the Ravens do next year with Wagner.

[The Raven]

2 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I suppose we'll get a pretty good look this week because I can't see Lewis coming out of the concussion protocol for this game, honestly.

And I know I've said it before, but he is so damn tall that I don't think the running game will get significantly better with he and Zuttah in there. Just a weak pair to try to run behind. The height/leverage issue is actually a big issue and worry I have with Pocic from LSU.

But with Lewis being a much more natural fit on the outside and Wagner playing really well this season (so far), have to wonder what the Ravens do next year with Wagner.

6'6 can work at guard, but one of two things have to happen:

1. You must be a freak like Kelechi Osemele or Alex Boone.

2. You have to be in a gap or power scheme where you don't need lateral agility.

I, too, am interested to see what could come of Lewis at RT. I suspect Wagner is not the future there.

Edited September 28, 2016 by The Raven

[BmoreBird22]

32 minutes ago, The Raven said:

6'6 can work at guard, but one of two things have to happen:

1. You must be a freak like Kelechi Osemele or Alex Boone.

2. You have to be in a gap or power scheme where you don't need lateral agility.

I, too, am interested to see what could come of Lewis at RT. I suspect Wagner is not the future there.

Aren't the Ravens trying to switch more to that, though? What's the issue then?

Why don't you think Wagner is the future?

[The Raven]

5 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Aren't the Ravens trying to switch more to that, though? What's the issue then?

Why don't you think Wagner is the future?

1. Honestly not sure. They're using more gap and man for sure but I'm not sure what the end goal is.Not sure for sure where they're going with it. It might just be a wrinkle, it might be a step towards a different system.

2. He is very good at not getting beat, but not very good at really moving guys at the line of scrimmage. I don't think he has been dominant enough to warrant investing top five money in, but he may get a top five RT deal. With the drafting of Alex Lewis and our ability to develop guys, on top of his averageness, I could see us moving on.

But, again, not sure what they value in RT or what scheme they see us in next year.

[BmoreBird22]

26 minutes ago, The Raven said:

1. Honestly not sure. They're using more gap and man for sure but I'm not sure what the end goal is.Not sure for sure where they're going with it. It might just be a wrinkle, it might be a step towards a different system.

2. He is very good at not getting beat, but not very good at really moving guys at the line of scrimmage. I don't think he has been dominant enough to warrant investing top five money in, but he may get a top five RT deal. With the drafting of Alex Lewis and our ability to develop guys, on top of his averageness, I could see us moving on.

But, again, not sure what they value in RT or what scheme they see us in next year.

What do you think is the single biggest issue facing the run game right now? I was watching the Rams-Bucs game and in the first half, the Rams used a lot of single back formations and running behind their guards and they were getting like 3 yards a carry. In the second, they used a lot more offset I and ran off the edges a lot more and Gurley got like 5 yards a carry. Think this would help the Ravens any?

I just want to know what direction they want to take the run game. I really think Trestman wants to run up the middle and punch a team in the mouth, but I don't think the Ravens are built for that right now. I would personally rather see them attack the edges.

With Wagner, apparently before the season the Ravens felt okay about his contract year because they really liked Wesley, so I can't imagine the Ravens are gonna value him super highly.

[The Raven]

2 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

What do you think is the single biggest issue facing the run game right now? I was watching the Rams-Bucs game and in the first half, the Rams used a lot of single back formations and running behind their guards and they were getting like 3 yards a carry. In the second, they used a lot more offset I and ran off the edges a lot more and Gurley got like 5 yards a carry. Think this would help the Ravens any?

I just want to know what direction they want to take the run game. I really think Trestman wants to run up the middle and punch a team in the mouth, but I don't think the Ravens are built for that right now. I would personally rather see them attack the edges.

With Wagner, apparently before the season the Ravens felt okay about his contract year because they really liked Wesley, so I can't imagine the Ravens are gonna value him super highly.

With the way we're built, I want us to go stretch zone with some inside zone as a compliment. That would suit our personnel best, across the board. That we're not using stretch is evidence to me that Trestman should have pursued his lawyer career instead of football.

The single biggest issue is center play. It is literally impossible to have a successful inside zone game without an adequate run blocking center. Inside zone is so dependent on center that it falls apart without a good one.

[BmoreBird22]

9 hours ago, The Raven said:

With the way we're built, I want us to go stretch zone with some inside zone as a compliment. That would suit our personnel best, across the board. That we're not using stretch is evidence to me that Trestman should have pursued his lawyer career instead of football.

The single biggest issue is center play. It is literally impossible to have a successful inside zone game without an adequate run blocking center. Inside zone is so dependent on center that it falls apart without a good one.

Wasn't Zuttah playing pretty well last year, though?

[Cillmatic]

I see Wagner walking after this season, dudes WAY to streaky. We're gonna have almost an entirely new line next season.

[The Raven]

37 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Wasn't Zuttah playing pretty well last year, though?

Still struggled in the run. Having KO masked the problems there

[VermontRaven]

1 hour ago, Cillmatic said:

I see Wagner walking after this season, dudes WAY to streaky. We're gonna have almost an entirely new line next season.

It'll definitely be interesting to see what Wagner gets on the open market.  My gut too says that he will be gone.  My guess is the Ravens offer him a reasonable, market value offer, but somebody opens up the checkbook and overpays them.  Not sure if it will be an entirely new line though, since I think 3 of the 5 current starters will be the same--Stanley, Yanda, and Lewis--although I see Lewis playing RT if Wagner does leave.  That would leave Jensen/Urshel and I'm sure some new faces competing for LG and C.

[jazz1988]

16 hours ago, The Raven said:

It is extremely well documented that Castillo is a zone guy.

If you want to know why we've transitioned away from the stretch, look at the guy who Castillo works for. You might know we've had an OC change.

 

You said it's extremely well documented that Juan Castillo is a zone guy but I'm not seeing that any where so far.Ross Tucker who is a former NFl offensive linemen stated him self that Castillo is not zone guy and thats not what he ran with The Eagles. If you want to hear more then please click here  links  and  the part where he's talking  about Castillo starts around the 19:43 mark.

Maybe Ravens fans don't remember but back in 2013 when Castillo was apart the coaching staff as the run game coordinator there was consistent talk about Castillo bringing a new blocking scheme and how the players struggled to adjust to it.The Ravens been running the zone blocking scheme way before Castillo was even part of the coaching staff so if the guy was purely a zone blocking coach it's no way what he was  teaching in 2013 should have been difficult for the players to get down.

Trestman  may be  the offensive coordinator but that doesn't mean Juan Castillo doesn't have any influence on what he wants the blocking scheme to be especially if John Harbaugh allows it. Honestly the blocking scheme now isn't really at all that different from 2013.

It's the same scheme bring off  the same results like in 2013 leaving us fans to blame Forsett and Zuttah for the troubles like we were blaming Rice and  Gradkowski. Castillo needs mean strong monster type offensive linemen to run his scheme to perfection and I think adding Jensen to the starting line up may help that cause but for most part this offensive line is at its best in  zone blocking . 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2016 by jazz1988

[Sami84]

2 hours ago, Cillmatic said:

I see Wagner walking after this season, dudes WAY to streaky. We're gonna have almost an entirely new line next season.

dont be shocked if our first pick is a center

 

i think it should be TBH

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

18 minutes ago, jazz1988 said:

You said it's extremely well documented that Juan Castillo is a zone guy but I'm not seeing that any where so far.Ross Tucker who is a former NFl offensive linemen stated him self that Castillo is not zone guy and thats not what he ran with The Eagles. If you want to hear more then please click here  links  and  the part where he's talking  about Castillo starts around the 19:43 mark.

Maybe Ravens fans don't remember but back in 2013 when Castillo was apart the coaching staff as the run game coordinator there was consistent talk about Castillo bringing a new blocking scheme and how the players struggled to adjust to it.The Ravens been running the zone blocking scheme way before Castillo was even part of the coaching staff so if the guy was purely a zone blocking coach it's no way what he was  teaching in 2013 should have been difficult for the players to get down.

Trestman  may be  the offensive coordinator but that doesn't mean Juan Castillo doesn't have any influence on what he wants the blocking scheme to be especially if John Harbaugh allows it. Honestly the blocking scheme now isn't really at all that different from 2013.

It's the same scheme bring off  the same results like in 2013 leaving us fans to blame Forsett and Zuttah for the troubles like we were blaming Rice and  Gradkowski. Castillo needs mean strong monster type offensive linemen to run his scheme to perfection and I think adding Jensen to the starting line up may help that cause but for most part this offensive line is at its best in  zone blocking . 

 

 

We were a man/power blocking team prior to 2013. Castillo started to implement a zone blocking scheme in 2013 and it was a disaster. It's part of the reason Kubiak was brought in,  to further implement it and surround the ZBS with an offense that would compliment it.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bthesite/bal-20-reasons-to-be-optimistic-about-the-rave-013-photo.html

To my knowledge (and I live in Philly), Castillo has always been a zone blocking guy. It's why the Eagles have always gone with the smaller, more athletic interior lineman. It's why they valued Danny Watkins (i think that was his name) the former fireman, OG that they reached for. Evan Mathis, Kelce, etc...

Westbrook with his vision, quickness and cut-back ability really excelled in that scheme as well. They had been running it for years. 

[Sami84]

26 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

We were a man/power blocking team prior to 2013. Castillo started to implement a zone blocking scheme in 2013 and it was a disaster. It's part of the reason Kubiak was brought in,  to further implement it and surround the ZBS with an offense that would compliment it.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bthesite/bal-20-reasons-to-be-optimistic-about-the-rave-013-photo.html

To my knowledge (and I live in Philly), Castillo has always been a zone blocking guy. It's why the Eagles have always gone with the smaller, more athletic interior lineman. It's why they valued Danny Watkins (i think that was his name) the former fireman, OG that they reached for. Evan Mathis, Kelce, etc...

Westbrook with his vision, quickness and cut-back ability really excelled in that scheme as well. They had been running it for years. 

 

I'd never put danny watkins in the same league of athletic ability of evan mathis.

[jazz1988]

57 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

We were a man/power blocking team prior to 2013. Castillo started to implement a zone blocking scheme in 2013 and it was a disaster. It's part of the reason Kubiak was brought in,  to further implement it and surround the ZBS with an offense that would compliment it.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bthesite/bal-20-reasons-to-be-optimistic-about-the-rave-013-photo.html

To my knowledge (and I live in Philly), Castillo has always been a zone blocking guy. It's why the Eagles have always gone with the smaller, more athletic interior lineman. It's why they valued Danny Watkins (i think that was his name) the former fireman, OG that they reached for. Evan Mathis, Kelce, etc...

Westbrook with his vision, quickness and cut-back ability really excelled in that scheme as well. They had been running it for years. 

The Ravens for  the most  part have been  running  a power/man blocking scheme since the start of the franchise but right around 2010 (I think is the same time Vonta Leach was signed)The Ravens implemented the zone blocking scheme . Of course hiring Kubaik helped even more because him and the Shanahan crew probably know how to run it better than any one 

Kubiak for the most part just used   the zone blocking scheme alot more and efficiently. When Danny Watkins was drafted in 2011 Juan Castillo was not the offensive line coach at the time because he was promoted to defensive coordinator . Howard Mudd was the offensive line coach and  I have a article that speaks about his coaching style/philosophy and how it differs from  Castillo. Link

Here is some information in which the article said from The Philadelphia Eagles official web page "Castillo had his tackles take deep, vertical sets with their feet in order to meet the defensive end about 3 or 4 yards behind the line of scrimmage. To do that, the tackles had to be huge, wide-bodied players with long arms which is why the Eagles consistently had one of the biggest offensive lines in the entire league. Mudd prefers rangier, more athletic linemen "

Overall Castillo didn't implement any zone blocking scheme but I doubt he doesn't have any knowledge of it especially since he worked with Kubaik for a year. The Ravens run blocking is suffering  because they are getting away from the zone blocking scheme which doesn't make sense to me and is why a guy like Zuttah is struggling.

Edited September 29, 2016 by jazz1988

[PurpleHorseman]

18 hours ago, The Raven said:

I think it's a significant hold up. Although with zone blocking you don't have to worry as much about changing blocking calls -- in the run or the pass game -- there's more chemistry needed in the actual blocking part. But again, I think Jensen's fine there. He plugged right in at LG last week and I noticed no drop off if any. 

I also think that Jensen has struggled with pass protection. With our OC being the pass happy nutcase that he is, I can understand why he'd rather have a better pass blocker in, even if it means sacrificing the run game.

Truth be told, I can't give a firm answer on why Jensen isn't in. The only think that makes sense to me is the chemistry/vet experience argument, but...

 

    Could the reasoning be Jensen is a free agent this spring? And ravens are not interested in driving up his value in the event he plays very well. I do not think his protection of Joe is bad at all. Could improve and it probably will. If Jensen plays well for 8 games he will be cheaper than if he plays very well for 16-19 games including playoffs. Lewis is considered the future at some position along the OL. And coaching prefers him getting experience.

 

If Jensen plays like he did late last year his pay could end up quite lucrative. Then if Wagner can pull it together and reclaim his 2014 form he would be expensive himself. Jensen and Wagner could play very well and even fix the run game. But ravens are then have the challenge of resigning 2 players on Joe's line with Lewis relatively unproven. If the case is he is beaten out for a job and rides the bench this season.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 hour ago, Sami84 said:

I'd never put danny watkins in the same league of athletic ability of evan mathis.

Danny Watkins was awful... what i was saying was that they were targeting guys in that mold - not your typical big, powerful guard - but smaller, quicker agile guards who can pull, move laterally, get out in space, etc...

Watkins was a bust - but they valued him more than most, if not all, of the league bc they felt what most saw as negatives (undersized mainly) projected well into their ZBS. He just flat out couldnt play.