Should Jensen and Urschel replace Lewis and Zuttah respectively?

[AppStRavenfan]

On 9/23/2016 at 2:17 PM, hen826957 said:

I think that the Ravens should've sign Josh Sitton when we had the chance because he would've help the running game, Zuttah, and even Stanley. He would've been a great veteran at LG. 

....as if we can sign literally anyone no matter what - Sitton signed with the first team he visited. Can hardly say we "should've" signed a player we never had a chance at signing in the first place.

[BmoreBird22]

46 minutes ago, AppStRavenfan said:

....as if we can sign literally anyone no matter what - Sitton signed with the first team he visited. Can hardly say we "should've" signed a player we never had a chance at signing in the first place.

As soon as I heard the Bears were interested, I knew he was going there. Why pass up a chance to play your former team twice a year?

[The Raven]

I'm not sure why, but Alex Lewis did not finish the game at LG. Ryan Jensen did. Did I miss an injury? If not, looks like Lewis got benched. He had a rough game.

[Cawtious]

Concussed?

Edited September 26, 2016 by Cawtious
Punctuation

[The Raven]

Just now, Cawtious said:

Concussed

Thanks, somehow I missed that. 

Still, I think Jensen played better. Our run game got a tad better with Jensen in.

[Moderator 3]

1 minute ago, The Raven said:

Thanks, somehow I missed that. 

Still, I think Jensen played better. Our run game got a tad better with Jensen in.

Or the Jags defense finally wore down a little.

[OUravensfan]

Our offense should have a big day vs Oakland next week, figure it out 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

I wonder if we could possibly pull of a trade for Steven Wisniewski? Hes a good zone blocking center and cant possibly be any worse than Zuttah, as he was better than he was the past two seasons. Why he took a job in Philly where he was a backup is astounding to me. Great in pass pro. Id send over a fourth rounder or something. 

 

Then again im not a GM for a reason. 

[The Raven]

11 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

I wonder if we could possibly pull of a trade for Steven Wisniewski? Hes a good zone blocking center and cant possibly be any worse than Zuttah, as he was better than he was the past two seasons. Why he took a job in Philly where he was a backup is astounding to me. Great in pass pro. Id send over a fourth rounder or something. 

 

Then again im not a GM for a reason. 

Tell ya what, Geoff Schwartz is out there in free agency. Once upon a time he was a mauler. I say it might be worth kicking the tires on him for LG. At least a workout. Injuries have kept him down the past two years and I guess he's not fully recovered but it may be worth a shot. 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

1 minute ago, The Raven said:

Tell ya what, Geoff Schwartz is out there in free agency. Once upon a time he was a mauler. I say it might be worth kicking the tires on him for LG. At least a workout. Injuries have kept him down the past two years and I guess he's not fully recovered but it may be worth a shot. 

It is. But we need another center just as bad. Im fine with Stanley. The right side might need work too.

[JoeyFlex5]

Lewis stepped down for jensen today. Weird. Coaching staff must not trust jensens ability to snap the ball or call assignments and they figured the best move would be to add some power next to zuttah to mask his deficiencies. Hope it works. 

I think lewis will be a better RT than a guard, he looks the part for that position once Wagner leaves. Maybe jensen fulfills his potential at guard.

[rmw10]

7 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Lewis stepped down for jensen today. Weird. Coaching staff must not trust jensens ability to snap the ball or call assignments and they figured the best move would be to add some power next to zuttah to mask his deficiencies. Hope it works. 

I think lewis will be a better RT than a guard, he looks the part for that position once Wagner leaves. Maybe jensen fulfills his potential at guard.

Lewis was injured.  No word on what it was, but a couple of reporters noted that he was on the sidelines being worked on.

[Filmstudy]

15 hours ago, rmw10 said:

Lewis was injured.  No word on what it was, but a couple of reporters noted that he was on the sidelines being worked on.

Reported as in the concussion protocol today.  It must have happened on the interception return by Gibson, when he took a big hit.

Lewis had a good game.  The Ravens need him back ASAP.

[PurpleCity5]

12 hours ago, Filmstudy said:

Reported as in the concussion protocol today.  It must have happened on the interception return by Gibson, when he took a big hit.

Lewis had a good game.  The Ravens need him back ASAP.

I agree, Lewis was good today. I kinda change my mind about subbing him out. It's good for us long term if he continues to start, he's a good pass blocker and could develop into a good run blocker. 

[ALPHA]

On 26/09/2016 at 9:39 AM, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

I wonder if we could possibly pull of a trade for Steven Wisniewski? Hes a good zone blocking center and cant possibly be any worse than Zuttah, as he was better than he was the past two seasons. Why he took a job in Philly where he was a backup is astounding to me. Great in pass pro. Id send over a fourth rounder or something. 

 

Then again im not a GM for a reason. 

As far as I know we never made an offer to Wis. Hes a beast though, hes no Yanda or Sitton but can play power or zone and all three interior spots. I thought he would be a no brainer this offseason but the FO still had faith in Zuttah I guess.

[Filmstudy]

It looks like the injury to Lewis happened on Gibson's interception return (Q4, 5:31) from a helmet-to-helmet hit from Skuta near the right sideline.  Lewis sat up then got up under his own power and walked to the sidelines with change of possession.

[jazz1988]

On 9/25/2016 at 7:39 PM, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

I wonder if we could possibly pull of a trade for Steven Wisniewski? Hes a good zone blocking center and cant possibly be any worse than Zuttah, as he was better than he was the past two seasons. Why he took a job in Philly where he was a backup is astounding to me. Great in pass pro. Id send over a fourth rounder or something. 

 

Then again im not a GM for a reason. 

The Ravens offensive line may still use some zone blocking but I  can tell they trying  use more gap schemes which may be called the power blocking scheme. it's one of the reason why I think Zuttah and others have struggled with run blocking . I think The Ravens should get back to their zone blocking scheme but overall a guy like Wiskniweki won't help if he's better suited for the zone blocking scheme only.

[Rav'n Maniac]

I feel our coaches need to take the same approach as Adam Gase is with his players. It's either perform or park it on the bench. It's been 3 bad games now for Zuttah, with the last one being the worst. He's not getting better, time to make the move. Get Jensen in there before Joe gets hurt again.

[rmcjacket23]

24 minutes ago, Rav'n Maniac said:

I feel our coaches need to take the same approach as Adam Gase is with his players. It's either perform or park it on the bench. It's been 3 bad games now for Zuttah, with the last one being the worst. He's not getting better, time to make the move. Get Jensen in there before Joe gets hurt again.

Main problem I have with this is that fans seem to assume that replacing a bad starter with a backup automatically leads to an upgrade. 

Frankly, I'm not sure what that basis for that logic is, and would love for somebody to explain it to me.

3 weeks ago, Jensen wasn't as good as Zuttah at center, as we know because he didn't win the camp battle for that job. So just wondering what has happened in the last three weeks for fans to be so sure that Jensen is an upgrade? (this is when I typically hear fans using vague, irrelevant phrases like "nastier" or "tougher", which mean nothing). 

Basically comes back to the idea of the coaching staff seeing 100% of the things you see and 100% of the things you don't see. Coaches aren't in the business of intentionally putting inferior players out there when better players exist on the roster... doesn't benefit them in any possible way. So for me, if the coaching staff hasn't pulled the trigger yet, it should tell ALL fans something. In fact, it may say more about Jensen than it does about Zuttah.

Edited September 28, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[RayRocks]

17 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Main problem I have with this is that fans seem to assume that replacing a bad starter with a backup automatically leads to an upgrade. 

Frankly, I'm not sure what that basis for that logic is, and would love for somebody to explain it to me.

3 weeks ago, Jensen wasn't as good as Zuttah at center, as we know because he didn't win the camp battle for that job. So just wondering what has happened in the last three weeks for fans to be so sure that Jensen is an upgrade? (this is when I typically hear fans using vague, irrelevant phrases like "nastier" or "tougher", which mean nothing). 

Basically comes back to the idea of the coaching staff seeing 100% of the things you see and 100% of the things you don't see. Coaches aren't in the business of intentionally putting inferior players out there when better players exist on the roster... doesn't benefit them in any possible way. So for me, if the coaching staff hasn't pulled the trigger yet, it should tell ALL fans something. In fact, it may say more about Jensen than it does about Zuttah.

While I agree with you, we do know that coaches do sometimes give the nod to a guy with more experience even if the younger player may show more promise. When it comes to center play, one or two bad snaps can completely change the outcome of a game, and you also count on your center to make line calls to make sure they have the right protection.  Both of these things may be the reason Zuttah is still starting over Jensen or Urschel, even if that means that Urschel and Jensen may be better blockers than Zuttah is at this time.

[rmcjacket23]

22 minutes ago, RayRocks said:

While I agree with you, we do know that coaches do sometimes give the nod to a guy with more experience even if the younger player may show more promise. When it comes to center play, one or two bad snaps can completely change the outcome of a game, and you also count on your center to make line calls to make sure they have the right protection.  Both of these things may be the reason Zuttah is still starting over Jensen or Urschel, even if that means that Urschel and Jensen may be better blockers than Zuttah is at this time.

I'd say they typically give experienced players the nod if they competition is relatively equal, but that doesn't appear to be the case here.

I'm not saying a change won't happen or shouldn't happen, I'm just struggling to understand why fans just assume that depth players are better than bad starters.

[jazz1988]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Main problem I have with this is that fans seem to assume that replacing a bad starter with a backup automatically leads to an upgrade. 

Frankly, I'm not sure what that basis for that logic is, and would love for somebody to explain it to me.

3 weeks ago, Jensen wasn't as good as Zuttah at center, as we know because he didn't win the camp battle for that job. So just wondering what has happened in the last three weeks for fans to be so sure that Jensen is an upgrade? (this is when I typically hear fans using vague, irrelevant phrases like "nastier" or "tougher", which mean nothing). 

Basically comes back to the idea of the coaching staff seeing 100% of the things you see and 100% of the things you don't see. Coaches aren't in the business of intentionally putting inferior players out there when better players exist on the roster... doesn't benefit them in any possible way. So for me, if the coaching staff hasn't pulled the trigger yet, it should tell ALL fans something. In fact, it may say more about Jensen than it does about Zuttah.

 

Both Juan Castillo(offensive line coach) and Todd Washington(assistant offensive line coach) come from  a man blocking scheme  back ground. Zuttah last year was rated the 8th best center  before being placed on i.r so I'm not sure  if he just playing hurt  or if it's just him having   bad days on game day.  One thing for sure Zuttah excels better in a zone blocking scheme which is something The Ravens right now seem to be getting away from since Kubiak left.  Jensen fits what Castillo  is looking for either out of  a guard or center because he's physical/pretty strong  and plays nasty while a guy like Zuttah isn't weak but he's at his best when able to use his athleticism which is what the zone blocking scheme maximizes.

 

.

 

[jboy19]

My issue with the "Bench Zuttah No Matter What" people is that they don't realize the tradeoff that the offense has to face with (a) a younger, inexperienced player calling out the schemes and (b) the danger of snap inconsistency. I'd much rather have a center getting pushed around a little than one calling out bad protections and making bad/incorrect snaps. 

[Rav'n Maniac]

30 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Main problem I have with this is that fans seem to assume that replacing a bad starter with a backup automatically leads to an upgrade. 

Frankly, I'm not sure what that basis for that logic is, and would love for somebody to explain it to me.

3 weeks ago, Jensen wasn't as good as Zuttah at center, as we know because he didn't win the camp battle for that job. So just wondering what has happened in the last three weeks for fans to be so sure that Jensen is an upgrade? (this is when I typically hear fans using vague, irrelevant phrases like "nastier" or "tougher", which mean nothing). 

Basically comes back to the idea of the coaching staff seeing 100% of the things you see and 100% of the things you don't see. Coaches aren't in the business of intentionally putting inferior players out there when better players exist on the roster... doesn't benefit them in any possible way. So for me, if the coaching staff hasn't pulled the trigger yet, it should tell ALL fans something. In fact, it may say more about Jensen than it does about Zuttah.

First and foremost, I never stated that Jensen would be an upgrade. They're your words! I used his name only because he "is" the backup center as listed on the depth chart.

To be honest, I could care less who they would decide to use. The important factor is they need to make an effort to fix the problem. Obviously, they have enough tape on Zuttah to know he is not the answer considering he hasn't made any progression in rectifying his issues to this point.

There is certainty that they can't "upgrade" the position unless they try someone else, in real game situations, since game situations is all they have left.

I agree that they see 100% of the things I/we don't see and i'm sure they didn't foresee his veteran play dropping off as much as it has. But, if he is our best/only option to continue, we are in big, big trouble.

Look man, I only want our players to play well, win more and remain healthy. Nothing more, nothing less. If my fandom offends you, that's your problem, not mine.

 

[Cawtious]

56 minutes ago, Rav'n Maniac said:

First and foremost, I never stated that Jensen would be an upgrade. They're your words! I used his name only because he "is" the backup center as listed on the depth chart.

To be honest, I could care less who they would decide to use. The important factor is they need to make an effort to fix the problem. Obviously, they have enough tape on Zuttah to know he is not the answer considering he hasn't made any progression in rectifying his issues to this point.

There is certainty that they can't "upgrade" the position unless they try someone else, in real game situations, since game situations is all they have left.

I agree that they see 100% of the things I/we don't see and i'm sure they didn't foresee his veteran play dropping off as much as it has. But, if he is our best/only option to continue, we are in big, big trouble.

Look man, I only want our players to play well, win more and remain healthy. Nothing more, nothing less. If my fandom offends you, that's your problem, not mine.

 

If you invested a couple of million dollars in a player for the season, vs. 600k, what do you think the front office wants?  Sit the multimillion dollar player for an ERFA?  I think this has some bearing on who is starting at C.  Jensen was a center most of his FB career.  He moved to Tackle only when he hit college.  I think he will be the Ravens center moving forward.  They've not let him settle at any position since he got here, so it doesn't surprise me that they view him as more valuable as a backup, because he can help them in at least four positions if need be.  His stock is on the rise, and I believe that when he is an RFA at the end of this year, the Ravens will look to lock him up. 

I think no one had chance to dethrone Zuttah because of the experience and the money they are paying him vs. what they are paying Urschel and Jensen.

 

JMHO.

[The Raven]

3 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Main problem I have with this is that fans seem to assume that replacing a bad starter with a backup automatically leads to an upgrade. 

Frankly, I'm not sure what that basis for that logic is, and would love for somebody to explain it to me.

3 weeks ago, Jensen wasn't as good as Zuttah at center, as we know because he didn't win the camp battle for that job. So just wondering what has happened in the last three weeks for fans to be so sure that Jensen is an upgrade? (this is when I typically hear fans using vague, irrelevant phrases like "nastier" or "tougher", which mean nothing). 

Basically comes back to the idea of the coaching staff seeing 100% of the things you see and 100% of the things you don't see. Coaches aren't in the business of intentionally putting inferior players out there when better players exist on the roster... doesn't benefit them in any possible way. So for me, if the coaching staff hasn't pulled the trigger yet, it should tell ALL fans something. In fact, it may say more about Jensen than it does about Zuttah.

If you think nastiness is irrelevant to oline play I'm convinced you don't know what the hell you're talking about on that subject.

"Nasty" is why we chose to pay Yanda and not Grubbs.

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, Rav'n Maniac said:

First and foremost, I never stated that Jensen would be an upgrade. They're your words! I used his name only because he "is" the backup center as listed on the depth chart.

To be honest, I could care less who they would decide to use. The important factor is they need to make an effort to fix the problem. Obviously, they have enough tape on Zuttah to know he is not the answer considering he hasn't made any progression in rectifying his issues to this point.

There is certainty that they can't "upgrade" the position unless they try someone else, in real game situations, since game situations is all they have left.

I agree that they see 100% of the things I/we don't see and i'm sure they didn't foresee his veteran play dropping off as much as it has. But, if he is our best/only option to continue, we are in big, big trouble.

Look man, I only want our players to play well, win more and remain healthy. Nothing more, nothing less. If my fandom offends you, that's your problem, not mine.

 

So you want Jensen in over Zuttah (which you did say), but you don't necessarily think he would be an upgrade?

So why are we putting him in again? Why would we bench somebody for another player if we don't think the other player is at least as good if not better?

What does that accomplish? Change just to appease the fans?

Sorry, don't get the logic there.

[The Raven]

1 hour ago, jazz1988 said:

 

Both Juan Castillo(offensive line coach) and Todd Washington(assistant offensive line coach) come from  a man blocking scheme  back ground. Zuttah last year was rated the 8th best center  before being placed on i.r so I'm not sure  if he just playing hurt  or if it's just him having   bad days on game day.  One thing for sure Zuttah excels better in a zone blocking scheme which is something The Ravens right now seem to be getting away from since Kubiak left.  Jensen fits what Castillo  is looking for either out of  a guard or center because he's physical/pretty strong  and plays nasty while a guy like Zuttah isn't weak but he's at his best when able to use his athleticism which is what the zone blocking scheme maximizes.

 

.

 

Castillo is a zone guy and always has been.

[Rav'n Maniac]

15 minutes ago, Cawtious said:

If you invested a couple of million dollars in a player for the season, vs. 600k, what do you think the front office wants?  Sit the multimillion dollar player for an ERFA?  I think this has some bearing on who is starting at C.  Jensen was a center most of his FB career.  He moved to Tackle only when he hit college.  I think he will be the Ravens center moving forward.  They've not let him settle at any position since he got here, so it doesn't surprise me that they view him as more valuable as a backup, because he can help them in at least four positions if need be.  His stock is on the rise, and I believe that when he is an RFA at the end of this year, the Ravens will look to lock him up. 

I think no one had chance to dethrone Zuttah because of the experience and the money they are paying him vs. what they are paying Urschel and Jensen.

 

JMHO.

I try to respect everyone's opinion all the time. This is yours, that's fine.

Just to clarify, you say that because a player has more experience and the team is paying them a larger amount of money that they are entitled to play, even though their performance is not meeting the teams expectations of the position.

OK

[rmcjacket23]

44 minutes ago, Cawtious said:

If you invested a couple of million dollars in a player for the season, vs. 600k, what do you think the front office wants?  Sit the multimillion dollar player for an ERFA?  I think this has some bearing on who is starting at C.  Jensen was a center most of his FB career.  He moved to Tackle only when he hit college.  I think he will be the Ravens center moving forward.  They've not let him settle at any position since he got here, so it doesn't surprise me that they view him as more valuable as a backup, because he can help them in at least four positions if need be.  His stock is on the rise, and I believe that when he is an RFA at the end of this year, the Ravens will look to lock him up. 

I think no one had chance to dethrone Zuttah because of the experience and the money they are paying him vs. what they are paying Urschel and Jensen.

 

JMHO.

In theory I'd agree, but no necessarily in this spot. I think the higher paid player gets the benefit of the doubt in the competition, but not necessarily once there's a sample size.

With somebody who you just invested guaranteed long-term money in, I agree with your premise. With a player like Zuttah, who is far, far, far from guaranteed to even be here next year, regardless of performance, I don't think the financial side plays much of a role.

After all, we're extremely likely to be giving more snaps to our two arguably cheapest RBs rather than to Forsett, who certainly costs more.