Should Jensen and Urschel replace Lewis and Zuttah respectively?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Plus, we're seeing Lewis in his 1st two games at LG. And he's played adequately. I'd say he's average starter level right now.

And if thats how hes performing with no experience, and without exactly the perfect build for the position (hes at a disadvantage when it comes to leverage) you can only expect him to improve. He's playing the a level on par if not better than id expect on average from Jensen or Urschel... the difference is Lewis only has room to grow. Both the others are young but have a ton more experience and have only reached similar heights in that time.

Zuttah has been bad. But we also know he's capable of being a pretty good player for us. He too is just returning from a season ending injury; and one thats going to effect your ability to latch on and move guys around.

We're giving Joe, Suggs, SSS, and others time to get back into the groove and play at their highest levels. Zuttahs been far below his norm, but i think you just create more weaknesses by trying to change things. Jensen may provide a better individual performance than Zuttah in a given week, but will the relationship between he and Joe be worse than Zuttahs? What about the ability to communicate protection to the rest of the line? His chemistry with the guys on either side of him?

I mean, if we get a lateral move at Center, but it negatively effects Joe, Yanda, and Lewis we're talking a net negative result there. I'm for sticking with the status quo a few more weeks and seeing if they can iron it out with the guys they have in there. I think theres more impacting the run game than just Zuttah getting pushed back.

[Cillmatic]

We might need to stick with Lewis for now. He's a rookie starting in between a rookie LT and a bad Center and he's not failing miserably. That alone is an achievement, we need to let him develop. I'm all for benching Zuttah though.

[Sami84]

7 hours ago, Cillmatic said:

We might need to stick with Lewis for now. He's a rookie starting in between a rookie LT and a bad Center and he's not failing miserably. That alone is an achievement, we need to let him develop. I'm all for benching Zuttah though.

 

 

his run blocking has been miserable. Jensens run blocking, when hes played, has been elite at times.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Sami84

[ALPHA]

Urschel was too concerned with his studies this offseason and it shows, thats not to say guys shouldn't have different pursuits but he's lost ground to people who live and breath this. Go be a professor.

[Cawtious]

18 hours ago, ALPHA said:

I wonder if theres another reason behind Jensen being on the bench.

I think part of the problem is they haven't let him settle in at a position since he got here.  First center, then out to guard, then they put him out at OT, then back to guard.  He played overall pretty well once they let him settle in for a few starts and finished the season last year, as I see it, pretty darn good.  Then he rolls into camp this year and give him NO chance at becoming the starting guard.  I thought he earned the shot.  Now back to center.........I don't know what he needs to do to earn a look at starting.  He, according to PFF (sorry Filmstudy) pulled some high praise and even the best scores of any OL in the league one week and better than average scores for a number of weeks.  He is fully capable of being a strong LG or C. 

He's in his last year as a ERFA.  They need to give him a realistic opportunity to become a starter.  I thought he earned it last year but apparently not.  Maybe the coaching staff doesn't like his demeanor on the field.  Hard to know why.......or its that the coaches evaluations line up differently than we the fans or the people doing the grading outside of the organization itself.

I don't think he's even approached his full potential.  Fourth year in the league and only 25......

You have to give credit where credit is due with Urschel and Lewis.    Jensen will just need to keep working hard and be ready for whatever or whomever will give him his opportunity.

[rmcjacket23]

4 hours ago, ALPHA said:

Urschel was too concerned with his studies this offseason and it shows, thats not to say guys shouldn't have different pursuits but he's lost ground to people who live and breath this. Go be a professor.

Well him being injured for like a month doesn't help either...

Kind of hard to compete with people when you're hurt.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

9 hours ago, Sami84 said:

his run blocking has been miserable. Jensens run blocking, when hes played, has been elite at times.

I dont get this.

Jensen gets a lot of hype for a guy that was one of the worst guards in football over a 3 game stretch, then graded really well over a 2 game stretch. Of course this is according to PFF but i like their individual grades for OL.

Why is the good, 2 game stretch more indicative of who he is as a player than the 3 game, awful stretch? I mean, if he looked so great at LG after last season, whyd the coaching staff not even put him in consideration for the job this year? He and Urschel switched positions, and Lewis beat them both out. And thats over a large sample size of the entire offseason, TC, and the PS.

A broken clock is right twice every day. Just because Jensen played 2 really good games over his, what, 4 year career now? doesnt mean thats the norm for him. Chances are if it was, he wouldve proven it playing alongside the guys hes competing with day in and day out for a couple months now.

[Cawtious]

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I dont get this.

Jensen gets a lot of hype for a guy that was one of the worst guards in football over a 3 game stretch, then graded really well over a 2 game stretch. Of course this is according to PFF but i like their individual grades for OL.

Why is the good, 2 game stretch more indicative of who he is as a player than the 3 game, awful stretch? I mean, if he looked so great at LG after last season, whyd the coaching staff not even put him in consideration for the job this year? He and Urschel switched positions, and Lewis beat them both out. And thats over a large sample size of the entire offseason, TC, and the PS.

A broken clock is right twice every day. Just because Jensen played 2 really good games over his, what, 4 year career now? doesnt mean thats the norm for him. Chances are if it was, he wouldve proven it playing alongside the guys hes competing with day in and day out for a couple months now.

He's been healthy for 1 of those three, broken foot, apnea, and 1 healthy season.  So that is three.  This is his fourth year, so let's be a little more accurate.

Does two games make Lewis a known quantity?  Has Lewis been asked to play four positions on the line?  Zuttah? Urschel?  Could they?

 

Guy is versatile but hasn't been allowed to settle into one.  He did have some under par games, but the more he played, the better he got. 

[BmoreBird22]

Apparently Zutah is a question mark for the game, so you may get your wishes with Jensen 

[Cawtious]

24 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Apparently Zutah is a question mark for the game, so you may get your wishes with Jensen 

What is making him a question mark?

[rmw10]

 

[PurpleHorseman]

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I dont get this.

Jensen gets a lot of hype for a guy that was one of the worst guards in football over a 3 game stretch, then graded really well over a 2 game stretch. Of course this is according to PFF but i like their individual grades for OL.

Why is the good, 2 game stretch more indicative of who he is as a player than the 3 game, awful stretch? I mean, if he looked so great at LG after last season, whyd the coaching staff not even put him in consideration for the job this year? He and Urschel switched positions, and Lewis beat them both out. And thats over a large sample size of the entire offseason, TC, and the PS.

A broken clock is right twice every day. Just because Jensen played 2 really good games over his, what, 4 year career now? doesnt mean thats the norm for him. Chances are if it was, he wouldve proven it playing alongside the guys hes competing with day in and day out for a couple months now.

A substandard C fighter can have a lucky round against an elite boxer. BUT you do not dominate top notch competition for 12 rounds on multiple occasions without him being legit. This is not a defender notching several coverage sacks. It is an offensive lineman that performed for 12 rounds and dominated. Just Curious, What teams did he dominate? When did he have a 3 game awful stretch? I never key in on him. But fans sure seem encouraged by his play. I don't think it would hurt  if the run blocking is again atrocious.

[BmoreBird22]

15 minutes ago, Cawtious said:

What is making him a question mark?

I just saw it worded that way in a tweet from Zriebac, but as rmw just pointed out, it wasn't an injury, apparently.

[Filmstudy]

1 hour ago, rmw10 said:

 

Here is a possible interpretation of this announcement:

1. The Ravens were previously on the fence about replacing Zuttah this week, probably more for issues of line communication and Urschel's health.

2. After watching Jensen (or Urschel) perform on Wednesday and Thursday, they have concluded he's ready.

3. The coaching staff conferred after practice Thursday and agreed they would make the move to Jensen.

4. They want to tell Zuttah and as a veteran give him the opportunity to process the change with a day off.  This also keeps it from being a distraction at practice.

5. They want Jensen to get the practice reps with the walkthrough.

6. Zuttah may or may not be active on game day.  If he is inactive, Hurst and Urschel will be the backup linemen.

If this is indeed how it's going down, I think the move is uncharacteristically fast for the Ravens.  I also think it comes with significant continuity risk for the offense, but I trust the staff has taken everything into consideration in making the move.

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by Filmstudy

[VermontRaven]

Jamison Hensley ESPN Staff Writer 

Ravens starting Jeremy Zuttah missed practice Friday, but coach John Harbaugh said it's not injury related. "You have to ask him," coach John Harbaugh said.

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into Harbaugh's statement, but to me that says that he is not too happy about why Zuttah was not at practice.

 

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, VermontRaven said:

Jamison Hensley ESPN Staff Writer 

Ravens starting Jeremy Zuttah missed practice Friday, but coach John Harbaugh said it's not injury related. "You have to ask him," coach John Harbaugh said.

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into Harbaugh's statement, but to me that says that he is not too happy about why Zuttah was not at practice.

 

Its a mystery at this point for sure. Could be some sort of personal issue with Zuttah that Harbaugh knows about but doesn't want to address himself.

I suspect we will find out soon enough.

[Filmstudy]

1 minute ago, VermontRaven said:

Jamison Hensley ESPN Staff Writer 

Ravens starting Jeremy Zuttah missed practice Friday, but coach John Harbaugh said it's not injury related. "You have to ask him," coach John Harbaugh said.

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into Harbaugh's statement, but to me that says that he is not too happy about why Zuttah was not at practice.

 

You're not reading too much into that.  If that's what was said, I would also interpret as Harbaugh is pissed.  Whatever the reason, this may accelerate personnel changes.

[hen826957]

I think that the Ravens should've sign Josh Sitton when we had the chance because he would've help the running game, Zuttah, and even Stanley. He would've been a great veteran at LG. 

[Moderator 3]

9 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Its a mystery at this point for sure. Could be some sort of personal issue with Zuttah that Harbaugh knows about but doesn't want to address himself.

I suspect we will find out soon enough.

Most likely this.

[Cawtious]

12 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

Most likely this.

And the thought plickens.......

[Cawtious]

5 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Well him being injured for like a month doesn't help either...

Kind of hard to compete with people when you're hurt.

Precisely.  The issue must have put John behind.  He's been participating fully as of late.  I would stay tuned to the regularly scheduled programming and see how this plays out by next week.

[Filmstudy]

Per Jeff Zrebiec:

Exact quote: "That would be a good question for Jeremy. There’s no injury there. Jeremy’s fine.”

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

3 hours ago, Cawtious said:

He's been healthy for 1 of those three, broken foot, apnea, and 1 healthy season.  So that is three.  This is his fourth year, so let's be a little more accurate.

Does two games make Lewis a known quantity?  Has Lewis been asked to play four positions on the line?  Zuttah? Urschel?  Could they?

 

Guy is versatile but hasn't been allowed to settle into one.  He did have some under par games, but the more he played, the better he got. 

Seriously? You're calling a whole season to sleep apnea? It was discovered in the offseason... we released him and then signed him to the PS. He never missed any time bc of it. 

He's had 3 full offseasons with the team, and almost 3 full regular seasons, going on his 4th. Its a 4 year career if hes been in the NFL going on his 4th year. I dont know whats inaccurate about that. If youre an 11 year vet youre an 11 year vet whether you missed a season or not. Youre still around the team, in the meeting rooms, studying film, and out at the practice field every day. Youre always learning and improving healthy or not.

Never said Lewis is a known commodity... and if anything only makes the point stronger. They felt more comfortable about Lewis with just one offseason than they did about having seen Jensen for 4 offseasons, and even having seen him play well in regular season games. Likely, because theyve seen him more often than not look like the guy who played poorly for the 3 game stretch last year.

I dont know how this is even a problem. Lewis literally got the job over him. I highly doubt they would do that if Jensen looked better. Theyre not going to put a weaker player on the field just cuz. 

And Lewis was asked to play LT, RT, and LG in the offseason and preseason. So no, only 3.

And id suggest, learning to play 1 position really well is more important than the ability to be 2nd, 3rd, or PS level at 4 positions.

 

I dont hate the guy. Im simply asking that since we've seen Jensen play far worse than Lewis for a pretty decent sample size... and seen him play really well for 2 games.... why is there a seeming majority of people who just "know" Jensens the better player? Flavor of the week?

Lewis is in his infancy, playing the position for the very first time, and has actually acquitted himself well. In fact, i imagine some of his struggles are due to Zuttah playing so poorly alongside him.

Zuttahs the only player on the line id consider switching at this point - and yea, id probably prefer Jensen there to Urschel at this point. But, im not shaking up what has shown promise to be a great left side of our line for the next 5-10 year just because a rookie in his 2nd game at the position has just been pretty good, and we have a guy who's played 2 really good games in his career behind him.

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

3 hours ago, PurpleHorseman said:

A substandard C fighter can have a lucky round against an elite boxer. BUT you do not dominate top notch competition for 12 rounds on multiple occasions without him being legit. This is not a defender notching several coverage sacks. It is an offensive lineman that performed for 12 rounds and dominated. Just Curious, What teams did he dominate? When did he have a 3 game awful stretch? I never key in on him. But fans sure seem encouraged by his play. I don't think it would hurt  if the run blocking is again atrocious.

Do you remember Gino Gradkowski looking dominant against Geno Atkins the last game of the regular season in 2012? Made us all feel great about Birk retiring. Then he was a complete disaster.

These guys are great athletes... and yes, even the career-substandard ones to play great games every now and again.

Not saying Jensen's awful - hes not. I like him, and hope he plays well if/when given the shot. Im just asking, what is the overwhelming evidence IN FAVOR of him being great, that negates the higher volume of evidence not in favor of it?

Thats a reasonable question... especially since hes got a 3 offseason head start on Lewis, and even with that headstart the coaching staff said Lewis is further ahead at the beginning of the season.

btw he was awful against STL, CLE, and SEA. Was good against KC and REALLY good against PITT, and then was back to average against CIN as i recall.

Edited September 23, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[Filmstudy]

Here is a graphical representation of scoring by my system for Urschel/Jensen/Zuttah in 2015 and Zuttah in 2016:

http://russellstreetreport.com/filmstudy-ravens-offensive-line-grades-by-game-2015/

http://russellstreetreport.com/offensive-line-grades-game-2016/

Zuttah outplayed both players in 2015 (I know Jensen's time was at LG) and that's part of the reason I am surprised by how quick the change is being made, but by all appearances, it will not be Zuttah Sunday.

[Cawtious]

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Seriously? You're calling a whole season to sleep apnea? It was discovered in the offseason... we released him and then signed him to the PS. He never missed any time bc of it. 

He's had 3 full offseasons with the team, and almost 3 full regular seasons, going on his 4th. Its a 4 year career if hes been in the NFL going on his 4th year. I dont know whats inaccurate about that. If youre an 11 year vet youre an 11 year vet whether you missed a season or not. Youre still around the team, in the meeting rooms, studying film, and out at the practice field every day. Youre always learning and improving healthy or not.

Never said Lewis is a known commodity... and if anything only makes the point stronger. They felt more comfortable about Lewis with just one offseason than they did about having seen Jensen for 4 offseasons, and even having seen him play well in regular season games. Likely, because theyve seen him more often than not look like the guy who played poorly for the 3 game stretch last year.

I dont know how this is even a problem. Lewis literally got the job over him. I highly doubt they would do that if Jensen looked better. Theyre not going to put a weaker player on the field just cuz. 

And Lewis was asked to play LT, RT, and LG in the offseason and preseason. So no, only 3.

And id suggest, learning to play 1 position really well is more important than the ability to be 2nd, 3rd, or PS level at 4 positions.

 

I dont hate the guy. Im simply asking that since we've seen Jensen play far worse than Lewis for a pretty decent sample size... and seen him play really well for 2 games.... why is there a seeming majority of people who just "know" Jensens the better player? Flavor of the week?

Lewis is in his infancy, playing the position for the very first time, and has actually acquitted himself well. In fact, i imagine some of his struggles are due to Zuttah playing so poorly alongside him.

Zuttahs the only player on the line id consider switching at this point - and yea, id probably prefer Jensen there to Urschel at this point. But, im not shaking up what has shown promise to be a great left side of our line for the next 5-10 year just because a rookie in his 2nd game at the position has just been pretty good, and we have a guy who's played 2 really good games in his career behind him.

 

Wasn't discovered in the Offseason.  Discovered after he was cut.  It along with poor play in the preseason landed him on the PS.  Fought his way back to the 53 by the last two games of that season.  What he lost was gameday opportunity,.  That was my point in all I said.  He's not had a season to settle in to a position

Fair enough on the remaining points ?

[sibelius]

Zuttah's quickly becoming the new Monroe.  

[The Raven]

I think Zuttah is a bad scheme fit now. As John Ogden and Wally Williams said in a recent Sun article, we're not running much stretch zone now. We're running more tight zone (which I don't like at all) and gap scheme (which is good). Jensen fits tight zone better than Zuttah. 

[flynismo]

On 9/23/2016 at 1:05 PM, rmw10 said:

 

Harbaugh probably locked him in the doghouse and threw away the keys

[ALPHA]

11 hours ago, The Raven said:

I think Zuttah is a bad scheme fit now. As John Ogden and Wally Williams said in a recent Sun article, we're not running much stretch zone now. We're running more tight zone (which I don't like at all) and gap scheme (which is good). Jensen fits tight zone better than Zuttah. 

Thats interesting, Ive always thought we give guys too much leeway for poor play but there must be more to this.