The annual Fire Dean Pees thread; 2016 edition

[52520Andrew]

10 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

Pees isn't bad but he's not great, IMO. It's like food. You just got a burger from some fast food joint. Now, the burger's not bad but it's not your favorite burger either, and if a better, tastier burger came around you'd probably want to throw the fast food burger away and go for that tasty burger. Well, Dean Pees is that fast food burger, but the Ravens (the organization) seem to really like that fast food restaurant. Let's call Dean Pees Wendy's. I think that's a good example. You know, square shape and all. Anyway, I digress. I really wanted to upgrade that Wendy's burger into, I don't know, like a Red Robin or a Shake Shack (I don't see them as fast food) or even a freaking In-n-Out. You could even say Dean Pees is a Five Guy's burger if you want. Don't get caught up in semantics! 

The point is I want a better damn burger but this will do. I really wanted that Wade Phillips burger but we never went to the store to buy it.

Yeah now you just have me hungry for In n Out

A Wade Phillips burger would be great but at least ours is edible. I think the Rex Ryan burger has gone bad. 

[cobrajet]

12 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

so, what it looks to me is this... nobody seems to understand what the hell the anti-pees people are frustrated about. 

its not about the depth of the corners in a 2 minute drill, its not about press coverage, its not about his coordinating throughout the game, its his tendency to ALWAYS get overly conservative at key moments. i get it, you dont wanna give up a big play, but if you didnt give up a big play in 3 whole quarters, did you suddenly lose all faith in your players  for no apparent reason? he overthinks it at the end of the game/half, and always has.

the first thing you pro-peesers shout is "PLAYERS FAULT!" but in reality they were executing the gameplan the whole time, they begin to have issues when the gameplan changes and puts far too much pressure on the secondary, because instead of pressuring the qb which was working great, we dropped our guys into shallow coverage, put the secondary in deep zone, and left big open spots on the field for them to find a rhythm and start moving the ball, which they did, just like nearly every other team who needs 1 score at the end of the game when facing us. 

its not 1 specific thing, its just a general change in philosophy at the end of games, and i understand you have to dial it back some in that situation, but the difference between regular dean pees defense and late game dean pees defense is night and day, he dials it back way tooo much and it comes back to bite us quite often.

I have to agree with JoeyFlex5 on this, but I am very aggressive to begin with when it come to defense. I rather take my chance giving up a big play and losing the game than play conservative and give them the middle of the field and get too close for my comfort trying to keep them out of the end zone. If we did not give up a big play for 3 quarters, than I would expect my team to do the same on the last drive. I am the complete opposite in aggressiveness on offense. I rather kick the field goal or pin them back on a punt then go for it on fourth down, unless we are really behind late in a game. I just don't feel our o-line is good enough yet, but that is a topic for another thread.

[GrimCoconut]

3 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I like Wendy's a hell of a lot more than I like Red Robin...

Lol yeah they're overrated but I said don't get caught up on semantics haha

[BmoreBird22]

37 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

Lol yeah they're overrated but I said don't get caught up on semantics haha

It's not even that Wendy's is good; just the Red Robin by me serves like 1 star burgers.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

Dean Pees deserves one of the game balls for the adjustments he made yesterday and for seeing the wisdom to make the transition from the booth to the sidelines. Dean's problem yesterday was the same one he faced last year --- He's darned if he calls a blitz and he's darned if he doesn't. Our front four and our secondary is just not good enough to sack the QB and/or cover downfield when we blitz. Yesterday, it was obvious that our secondary was victimized multiple times in blitzing situations. With the return of Smith, Dumerville and Urban, perhaps the pass rush will improve. Hope springs eternal. Let's end this thread on a high note.  

[usmccharles]

4 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I haven't been a forsett fan since kubiak left. 

As bad as he's been so far he's just validating my dislike for him as a player. He seems like a good guy and all, but he's been really bad so far this year and going out of bounds yesterday was the icing on the cake for me.

I can understand that and all, but calling him an idiot for his lack of performance isn't justified imo

[Gtown Purple]

I have to put more on the players than Pees. The gameplan really didn't change through out the game, our guys just played better. The long TD to Coleman came over top Jimmy and Coleman was out of bounds anyway so in reality it should not have counted. I do think Jimmy gets star treatment to a certain degree around here but he does get beat more than a "star" cb should. I think we underestimated Coleman.....

 

The long TD run was just getting out schemed/played. Hue Jackson always gets us when we face him whether with the bengals or browns. The long run came off a formation where we were shaded right and they ran left. They pulled so they had a hat on a hat up until the second level then weddle and webb both whiffed on a tackle. Somebody has to beat a 1-1 block or weddle or webb need to man up and make an open field tackle. Other than that run not much else on the ground so we must have tightened up.

 

The second coleman td was shareece wright flat out getting beasted. He was giving 8-9 yards on a play at the 12 yard line and gets stiff armed at the 7 on a smoke screen basically.

 

The play calling at the end I understand completely. The situation is to not give up anything long as the browns needed a td. Everything executed well except the pryor pass and the fortunate taunting penalty. Otherwise we forced them into checkdowns which ran over 2 minutes off the clock. It worked.....

[BmoreBird22]

8 minutes ago, Gtown Purple said:

I have to put more on the players than Pees. The gameplan really didn't change through out the game, our guys just played better. The long TD to Coleman came over top Jimmy and Coleman was out of bounds anyway so in reality it should not have counted. I do think Jimmy gets star treatment to a certain degree around here but he does get beat more than a "star" cb should. I think we underestimated Coleman.....

That was Shareece Wright...

Also, on the run play by Crowell, that was Webb taking a poor angle and whiffing on the open field tackle. Actually, watching it again, Wright also had a piss poor angle and whiffed on a tackle. Wow, two really bad angles by DB's on that run. Should not have happened there.

Edited September 19, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[JoeyFlex5]

27 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

I can understand that and all, but calling him an idiot for his lack of performance isn't justified imo

Well it was an idiotic decision. 

I have no reason to attack him personally I just don't think he should see the field. His decision was what I meant to call idiotic in the first place. 

[usmccharles]

18 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Well it was an idiotic decision. 

I have no reason to attack him personally I just don't think he should see the field. His decision was what I meant to call idiotic in the first place. 

I got you.  Yea I was pretty wrong with him, I was happy to have him coming back but he is not looking the same as two years ago.  We need Dixon.

[Tru11]

4 hours ago, Willbacker said:

Can you end the game on 4th and 4?? I'm sure its pretty apparent tackles aren't always made. Should they be? Yes but the bottomline is youre still giving them a chance to fling a hail mary which you know I guess those plays never work. Or do they

You can also show press and then bail. No need to jam. Or better yet play 6 or 7 yds off and then you gotta chance to come up and make the quick tackle.

On your last sentence the highest % of success is stopping somebody on 4th down not saying here get the 1st I make the tackle and run more clock.

stopping somebody on 4th down with the risk of giving up a touchdown is not the highest % of play.

wright could not tackle coleman even when being put in the perfect position to do so.

he already got torched on a long TD in the first quarter not to mention got out muscled on a jump ball late in the game.

quite frankly coleman had wrights numbers in every way possible.

that simple fact alone should tell you what you are suggesting would be a recipe for disaster.

however im quite sure if pees did what you said and it failed you would be over here anyways saying the opposite of what you have been saying.

[Gtown Purple]

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

That was Shareece Wright...

Also, on the run play by Crowell, that was Webb taking a poor angle and whiffing on the open field tackle. Actually, watching it again, Wright also had a piss poor angle and whiffed on a tackle. Wow, two really bad angles by DB's on that run. Should not have happened there.

Your right, I have it backwards. The long play to coleman was wright plus a saftey late. The stiff arm was on jimmy.

 

You are also right on the running play weddle didn't whiff but wasn't near the play either.

[Willbacker]

36 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

stopping somebody on 4th down with the risk of giving up a touchdown is not the highest % of play.

wright could not tackle coleman even when being put in the perfect position to do so.

he already got torched on a long TD in the first quarter not to mention got out muscled on a jump ball late in the game.

quite frankly coleman had wrights numbers in every way possible.

that simple fact alone should tell you what you are suggesting would be a recipe for disaster.

however im quite sure if pees did what you said and it failed you would be over here anyways saying the opposite of what you have been saying.

You know darn well I'm a straight up shooter. My main problem as you should know by now I'm only talking bout the last 2 minutes of each half is where he dials it back every time. They could have had the ball at the 10 and if that foul is only cuz of the flip then that was a total bs call and they would have had time for 2 maybe 3 balls to chuck a 10 yd completion to beat us. No I'm not ok with the prevent to win D in these situations. I do wonder tho if a LB was supposed to cover that short flat tho on the 4th down play and possibly blew it.

34 minutes ago, Gtown Purple said:

Your right, I have it backwards. The long play to coleman was wright plus a saftey late. The stiff arm was on jimmy.

 

You are also right on the running play weddle didn't whiff but wasn't near the play either.

Weddle was blocked on a great block by the FB and all 3 TDs were given up by the players not the call. It was a run blitz that got broken thru and the deep help whiffed on their tackles. It should have only a 12-15 yd run.

[Tru11]

9 minutes ago, Willbacker said:

You know darn well I'm a straight up shooter. My main problem as you should know by now I'm only talking bout the last 2 minutes of each half is where he dials it back every time. They could have had the ball at the 10 and if that foul is only cuz of the flip then that was a total bs call and they would have had time for 2 maybe 3 balls to chuck a 10 yd completion to beat us. No I'm not ok with the prevent to win D in these situations. I do wonder tho if a LB was supposed to cover that short flat tho on the 4th down play and possibly blew it.

Weddle was blocked on a great block by the FB and all 3 TDs were given up by the players not the call. It was a run blitz that got broken thru and the deep help whiffed on their tackles. It should have only a 12-15 yd run.

i would not call bringing pressure dialing it back.

if he would have really dialed it back you would have seen 3 man rushes from the start of the drive.

i dont think many of you understand prevent defense tbh.

no way that pryor catch should be made against a prevent defense.
 

[Willbacker]

1 hour ago, Tru11 said:

i would not call bringing pressure dialing it back.

if he would have really dialed it back you would have seen 3 man rushes from the start of the drive.

i dont think many of you understand prevent defense tbh.

no way that pryor catch should be made against a prevent defense.
 

Well since he's now on the sideline I don't think he's allowed to use 3 man pass rushes anymore lol. Its been bleachbit from the playbook.

[BmoreBird22]

3 hours ago, Gtown Purple said:

Your right, I have it backwards. The long play to coleman was wright plus a saftey late. The stiff arm was on jimmy.

 

You are also right on the running play weddle didn't whiff but wasn't near the play either.

Poor display of tackling on several occassions on Sunday.

Coleman touchdown, TD run, fourth quarter final drive, and more

[DomMcRaven]

22 hours ago, K-Dog said:

Am I the only one that thinks holding ANY team in the NFL scoreless for three quarters is impressive? 

Nope. They couldn't do it for FOUR quarters. All or nothing. #firepees #fireharbaugh #fireozzie #cutflacco

[usmccharles]

2 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Poor display of tackling on several occassions on Sunday.

Coleman touchdown, TD run, fourth quarter final drive, and more

Coleman looks like a beast...great.

AJ green

Brown and the rest

Coleman and Pryor, not to mention they get Josh Gordon back. 

We really need to work on this secondary for the future.  or now, that would be cool

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, usmccharles said:

Coleman looks like a beast...great.

AJ green

Brown and the rest

Coleman and Pryor, not to mention they get Josh Gordon back. 

We really need to work on this secondary for the future.  or now, that would be cool

With Coleman, I saw two things that he does well- jump balls and deep routes. That's pretty much what he did at Baylor. 

I don't think you have to worry about him yet if you can put a lid on him over the top.

[usmccharles]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

With Coleman, I saw two things that he does well- jump balls and deep routes. That's pretty much what he did at Baylor. 

I don't think you have to worry about him yet if you can put a lid on him over the top.

Not yet, but it was his second NFL game and I liked what I saw.  Luckily, the Browns don't have a young up and coming QB. 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

On 9/18/2016 at 2:40 PM, JoeyFlex5 said:

He called a brilliant game for 2 quarters and 13 minutes, and then blew it at the end, like he has done a million times.

1

 

*has opportunity to draft potential future Pro Bowler Carson Wentz*

*screws up majorly by trading back to get a WR and drafts Cody Kessler, a QB that shouldn't have been drafted until far later, in the third*

[Maryland]

19 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Pees apparently once was way in Jimmy's face asking if he wanted to play press man. I don't know where it came from, probably a Sound FX from NFL Network, and it was a few years ago, but a few posters have actually said he wants corners to get up in the receivers face.

But what 3rd and long are you referring to?

From RSR

Quote

(Q2, 13:24) 3/12, PR16: McCown threw complete to Pryor (14 + 2 YAC) well in front of Jimmy Smith who was much too soft for the situation.

There was a 3rd and short where he gave up a 1st down on a rec by... Hawkins (?) but it seemed like a good play design by Hue, and a very difficult assignment for Jimmy.

 

And I just have to assume it's coaching if guys are playing too far behind the sticks on third down, but I'm sure it's on the players too, at least some of the time. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Maryland

[arnie_uk]

15 hours ago, frozen joe flacco fan said:

Dean Pees deserves one of the game balls for the adjustments he made yesterday and for seeing the wisdom to make the transition from the booth to the sidelines. Dean's problem yesterday was the same one he faced last year --- He's darned if he calls a blitz and he's darned if he doesn't. Our front four and our secondary is just not good enough to sack the QB and/or cover downfield when we blitz. Yesterday, it was obvious that our secondary was victimized multiple times in blitzing situations. With the return of Smith, Dumerville and Urban, perhaps the pass rush will improve. Hope springs eternal. Let's end this thread on a high note.  

Die by the sword. I can at least live with that

[hen826957]

7 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Coleman looks like a beast...great.

AJ green

Brown and the rest

Coleman and Pryor, not to mention they get Josh Gordon back. 

We really need to work on this secondary for the future.  or now, that would be cool

More than anything next year is the secondary. That's the first thing Ozzie should focus on improving. But hey, why think next year when there this year. I think we'll be fine.

[Maryland]

And I agree with the original point of this thread: going full-prevent when you're only up 7 or less is not the best strategy. I think it's better to keep playing the defensive scheme that you were playing--the defense that shut them out for the previous 2 quarters and 13 min--for just a little longer. Pees' 2-minute defense worked this time, but the Browns were going to have some shots to the endzone were it not for a penalty. I understand the logic of preventing the big play and allowing the opposing offense to use time completing easy underneath routes, but the DBs either need to tighten-up just a little or Pees needs to initiate his current prevent defense just a little later, since it's too soft to stop competent teams from getting into scoring range with 2 minutes left. What Pees does do well, however, is blitz a minimum of 4 guys during his 2-minute defense. Sending 3 is an automatic surrendering of a completion, whereas sending 4 actually can generate some pressure, and he understands this.

Pees isn't the only one to do this though. A lot of DCs get too conservative on defense to end games. Dom Capers actually makes Pees look like an awesome end-game DC by comparison when you see the way he ends games, sending 3 and giving the softest coverage you'll ever see. 

[Tank 92]

Bottom line. No matter the play call/coverage players have to execute to make it work. Period.

[ravensdfan]

18 hours ago, frozen joe flacco fan said:

Dean Pees deserves one of the game balls for the adjustments he made yesterday and for seeing the wisdom to make the transition from the booth to the sidelines. Dean's problem yesterday was the same one he faced last year --- He's darned if he calls a blitz and he's darned if he doesn't. Our front four and our secondary is just not good enough to sack the QB and/or cover downfield when we blitz. Yesterday, it was obvious that our secondary was victimized multiple times in blitzing situations. With the return of Smith, Dumerville and Urban, perhaps the pass rush will improve. Hope springs eternal. Let's end this thread on a high note.  

Yes it only took him how many seasons of crappy defense to finally come down to the sidelines? Check any Pees thread after 2012 and it's something I saw as part of the problem way back then. Which makes me wonder if it wasn't his call.

I don't know why some feel the need to defend Pees for everything. He DOES get way too conservative in the 2 minutes at the end of a half or game. That is just fact and you can go and watch any game from now back to 2012 and see it. So tired of hearing "well it is bend but don't break. that's how it works>" Yes we all know this but no need to give them 20 yd cushions and hardly a great plan when we've done nothing but break in those circumstances since 2013. The only difference in this last game is we actually didn't break and give up the TD like we have been for years on end. Substitute the Steelers, Bengals, Pats in for the Browns and do you truly believe we win that game with that defensive game plan?

It isn't just situational football, you also must make adjustments based on your opponent. Now perhaps Pees will do that this season, we can't know that yet. All we have to pass judgement right now is his history which shows he will institute that same conservative stuff against better teams with better discipline and we will lose because of it.

I'm sure I can find any play (even a successful one) and point out where a player didn't execute perfectly or even well. One can defend even the worst coordinator playing that game. The fact remains that the common denominator is not players, it is the DC. It's great the defense finally held in the 4th (with a lot of help from a controversial taunting call) but that isn't going to cut it against real teams.

You wanted to end on a high note though so here it is. Given the opportunity, the offense managed to stay on the field and end the game in Week 1 and the defense managed to not break in the 4th and held on for the win in Week 2.

Edited September 20, 2016 by ravensdfan

[BmoreBird22]

4 hours ago, Maryland said:

From RSR

There was a 3rd and short where he gave up a 1st down on a rec by... Hawkins (?) but it seemed like a good play design by Hue, and a very difficult assignment for Jimmy.

 

And I just have to assume it's coaching if guys are playing too far behind the sticks on third down, but I'm sure it's on the players too, at least some of the time. 

I think maybe I'm thinking of the Hawkins one where it was a zone and two players stacked and released on the same route, just on different depths. It was a damned if you do, damned if you don't because there was going to be a reception; Jimmy just stopped the longer one and broke down on the shorter.

It's gonna be the play call. On a lot of these zones, there should be a safety or linebacker covering the flat, but they just aren't fast in getting there.

[BmoreBird22]

One thing I will say about people calling this a "prevent defense" (which it is not) is that as Ravnesfan23 pointed out, the Browns got like 25 yards on four plays and took over a minute off the clock. Really, had the Ravens just tackled Corey Coleman in bounds (we're talking about Mosley and Wright both missing), we're probably not even in a position where the Browns may have a shot at the end zone at all. 

I say this frequently, but most of you don't hate the play call; you hate the execution by the players. Truthfully, it wasn't a bad play call at all by Pees because the Browns were getting maybe three or four yards at a time if the players tackle immediately or near immediately and each play is gonna run off maybe 15 seconds. In that situation, you need to stop them about eight times (assuming every time is 15 seconds exactly) and you're talking about a team getting maybe 40 yards. 

Hell, nothing wrong with the way Pees called that; players just really needed to step up and make crucial tackles and they did not.

[BmoreBird22]

"They shouldn't have to, though. Baltimore rolled out the only coverage that Cleveland's receivers could beat: press man. It backfired twice when Josh McCown found rookie Corey Coleman in the end zone, and coordinator Dean Pees might want to avoid it going forward."

Interesting snippet from Chris Simms, one of the analysts at the game.