The annual Fire Dean Pees thread; 2016 edition

[JoeyFlex5]

so, what it looks to me is this... nobody seems to understand what the hell the anti-pees people are frustrated about. 

its not about the depth of the corners in a 2 minute drill, its not about press coverage, its not about his coordinating throughout the game, its his tendency to ALWAYS get overly conservative at key moments. i get it, you dont wanna give up a big play, but if you didnt give up a big play in 3 whole quarters, did you suddenly lose all faith in your players  for no apparent reason? he overthinks it at the end of the game/half, and always has.

the first thing you pro-peesers shout is "PLAYERS FAULT!" but in reality they were executing the gameplan the whole time, they begin to have issues when the gameplan changes and puts far too much pressure on the secondary, because instead of pressuring the qb which was working great, we dropped our guys into shallow coverage, put the secondary in deep zone, and left big open spots on the field for them to find a rhythm and start moving the ball, which they did, just like nearly every other team who needs 1 score at the end of the game when facing us. 

its not 1 specific thing, its just a general change in philosophy at the end of games, and i understand you have to dial it back some in that situation, but the difference between regular dean pees defense and late game dean pees defense is night and day, he dials it back way tooo much and it comes back to bite us quite often.

[Willbacker]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

Well, the difficult thing for right in a lot of these zone schemes is he is not a big corner, so it's not exactly easy for him to reroute his man. When his assignment is to be the deep third, it's because he is the last man on that side of the hash for deep coverage. If he gambles on pressing and his man gets by him, you're looking at 6.

I'm talking bout showing it first and just dropping back not jamming or trying to reroute.

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, Willbacker said:

I'm talking bout showing it first and just dropping back not jamming or trying to reroute.

On that, I am not sure. It might be that he's not confident in his speed to cover Corey Coleman down the field. Coleman is probably a good .15 seconds faster (going off combine times) and just chews up cushions in a jiffy. 

Coleman also had him beat a few times in the game (including a touchdown), so there is merit to his worry.

[BmoreBird22]

8 minutes ago, The Raven said:

Honestly I feel like offenses kill us in the flats and buzz zones. We always seem so vulnerable there

And then we're going to hear about the corners playing off and how it's their fault.

I think they probably drafted Correa with the intention to inject some speed into the drops. Right now, I actually think Weddle has been doing a really good job, but that still only takes care of one side of the field.

[Willbacker]

5 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

so, what it looks to me is this... nobody seems to understand what the hell the anti-pees people are frustrated about. 

its not about the depth of the corners in a 2 minute drill, its not about press coverage, its not about his coordinating throughout the game, its his tendency to ALWAYS get overly conservative at key moments. i get it, you dont wanna give up a big play, but if you didnt give up a big play in 3 whole quarters, did you suddenly lose all faith in your players  for no apparent reason? he overthinks it at the end of the game/half, and always has.

the first thing you pro-peesers shout is "PLAYERS FAULT!" but in reality they were executing the gameplan the whole time, they begin to have issues when the gameplan changes and puts far too much pressure on the secondary, because instead of pressuring the qb which was working great, we dropped our guys into shallow coverage, put the secondary in deep zone, and left big open spots on the field for them to find a rhythm and start moving the ball, which they did, just like nearly every other team who needs 1 score at the end of the game when facing us. 

its not 1 specific thing, its just a general change in philosophy at the end of games, and i understand you have to dial it back some in that situation, but the difference between regular dean pees defense and late game dean pees defense is night and day, he dials it back way tooo much and it comes back to bite us quite often.

Its not only at the end of the game but also under the 2 in the 1st half. This was corrected during the 2nd half of last season you know but..... but you know hamster in the wheel

2 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

On that, I am not sure. It might be that he's not confident in his speed to cover Corey Coleman down the field. Coleman is probably a good .15 seconds faster (going off combine times) and just chews up cushions in a jiffy. 

Coleman also had him beat a few times in the game (including a touchdown), so there is merit to his worry.

Can understand this but he was so ridiculously far back on that 4th and 4 that he gave the receiver time to have a move to juke him so he can get to the sideline. I know Clev was out of timeouts but on 4th down when you can end the game you just cant do that.

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, Willbacker said:

Its not only at the end of the game but also under the 2 in the 1st half. This was corrected during the 2nd half of last season you know but..... but you know hamster in the wheel

Can understand this but he was so ridiculously far back on that 4th and 4 that he gave the receiver time to have a move to juke him so he can get to the sideline. I know Clev was out of timeouts but on 4th down when you can end the game you just cant do that.

I'd have to go back and watch the play to actually tell you my specific thoughts, but my guess is that there was supposed to be some sort of hook to the flat from a linebacker or safety and it just didn't get there. 

[Willbacker]

1 minute ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I'd have to go back and watch the play to actually tell you my specific thoughts, but my guess is that there was supposed to be some sort of hook to the flat from a linebacker or safety and it just didn't get there. 

Well it was kind of a slant in play so I'm not sure. I need to get back to the GB game. Cant believe I posted so much lol but for future reference do you have DB experience. Good talk man.

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, Willbacker said:

Well it was kind of a slant in play so I'm not sure. I need to get back to the GB game. Cant believe I posted so much lol but for future reference do you have DB experience. Good talk man.

I have played enough to have answer your questions, if you ever have any. Unfortunately, due to the nature of having seven to eight guys in coverage with a lot of moving parts, it requires me to go back and actually focus in on a play before I can give my specific thoughts because usually during a game, I'm just watching for the end result and pick up some things here and there.

[DR32]

Not to say Pees is great but we sure put a lot of pressure on him at the end of games. In today's NFL giving any team 4 downs to move the ball in desperation time is hard to stop. I don't get why we don't play to win (score a TD and it's over) rather than just try to milk the clock. 

[JoeyFlex5]

We would've successfully milked the clock had idiot Justin forsett went down instead of going out of bounds.

[GrimCoconut]

3 hours ago, 52520Andrew said:

Overall, I don't like the way Pees calls games during the final drive and I have made that known for quite a while(dating back to the Chargers game in 2014). I still think it is too early to judge the defense after 2 games though and my opinion on Pees hasn't been swayed all that much yet from where it was last year(not a fan of him but we will see what he can do this year).

Pees isn't bad but he's not great, IMO. It's like food. You just got a burger from some fast food joint. Now, the burger's not bad but it's not your favorite burger either, and if a better, tastier burger came around you'd probably want to throw the fast food burger away and go for that tasty burger. Well, Dean Pees is that fast food burger, but the Ravens (the organization) seem to really like that fast food restaurant. Let's call Dean Pees Wendy's. I think that's a good example. You know, square shape and all. Anyway, I digress. I really wanted to upgrade that Wendy's burger into, I don't know, like a Red Robin or a Shake Shack (I don't see them as fast food) or even a freaking In-n-Out. You could even say Dean Pees is a Five Guy's burger if you want. Don't get caught up in semantics! 

The point is I want a better damn burger but this will do. I really wanted that Wade Phillips burger but we never went to the store to buy it.

[redrum52]

1 hour ago, flynismo said:

Unless you're Joe Haden. That coverage on the Perriman INT was sick

Sometimes people can't accept the other teams are paid to make plays too.  That Haden pick was an insane play by a good player.

[MTRavensFan]

True that. Haden played a phenomenal game all the way around.

[usmccharles]

50 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

We would've successfully milked the clock had idiot Justin forsett went down instead of going out of bounds.

Come on man,  your sounding like a certain other poster on here using names like that 

[PurpleCity5]

16 minutes ago, redrum52 said:

Sometimes people can't accept the other teams are paid to make plays too.  That Haden pick was an insane play by a good player.

Totally agree. 

[Tru11]

2 hours ago, Willbacker said:

Its not only at the end of the game but also under the 2 in the 1st half. This was corrected during the 2nd half of last season you know but..... but you know hamster in the wheel

Can understand this but he was so ridiculously far back on that 4th and 4 that he gave the receiver time to have a move to juke him so he can get to the sideline. I know Clev was out of timeouts but on 4th down when you can end the game you just cant do that.

wright responsibility on that play is to not get beat deep and keep the receiver from going out of bound.

had he made the tackle then this would have been a non issue.

however he failed and that is on him and not the play call.

you dont play press coverage or tight coverage in that situation cause if you fail to jamm the receiver properly or  the pressure does not get there you will risk giving up more yards as sticking tight to a receiver is about the hardest job in the NFL.

situational football you go with what gives you the highest % of success given that you execute like you should.

[Tru11]

3 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

so, what it looks to me is this... nobody seems to understand what the hell the anti-pees people are frustrated about. 

its not about the depth of the corners in a 2 minute drill, its not about press coverage, its not about his coordinating throughout the game, its his tendency to ALWAYS get overly conservative at key moments. i get it, you dont wanna give up a big play, but if you didnt give up a big play in 3 whole quarters, did you suddenly lose all faith in your players  for no apparent reason? he overthinks it at the end of the game/half, and always has.

the first thing you pro-peesers shout is "PLAYERS FAULT!" but in reality they were executing the gameplan the whole time, they begin to have issues when the gameplan changes and puts far too much pressure on the secondary, because instead of pressuring the qb which was working great, we dropped our guys into shallow coverage, put the secondary in deep zone, and left big open spots on the field for them to find a rhythm and start moving the ball, which they did, just like nearly every other team who needs 1 score at the end of the game when facing us. 

its not 1 specific thing, its just a general change in philosophy at the end of games, and i understand you have to dial it back some in that situation, but the difference between regular dean pees defense and late game dean pees defense is night and day, he dials it back way tooo much and it comes back to bite us quite often.

the anti pees crowd dont even understand what they are frustrated about.

players missing tackles or not being able to beat their man in 1 on 1 situations is not part of the game plan.

rushing 4 guys against 5 o-liners means 3 players are in 1 on 1 situations.

if they cant beat their man and get pressure , they are not executing and that is on them.

its actually pretty sad that a 4 man rush cant generate any pressure against 5 blockers.....

Edited September 19, 2016 by Tru11

[Ravensfan23]

32 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

do you really think its so black and white that you can say "the first few plays went for under 10 yards so youre wrong" ? 

when an offense starts completing pass after pass like that, things open up, youre letting them dictate the pace, your secondary isnt prepared to cover for 4+ seconds, the qb has a clean pocket so he can make all the throws he wants and your db's are sucking wind because the dc put them in a position to try to cover perfectly placed passes with free running wr's. thats why it starts with small plays and then bang bang 2 plays later theyre inside the 10 yard line and we caught a lucky break that brough them back with that bad flag. 

how many different secondary units do wue need to see this happen with before you guys realize? 

Yes it is that black and white because that's exactly what happened. For all the time McCown had on that drive to make plays down field, why didn't he do it? He threw the ball short for a reason. 5 plays, 27 yards and 2 minutes off the clock. You said they were picking up chunks, show me the chunks and i'll glad say I was wrong. 

Pass after pass like what? They used a full minute to complete 2 passes and move the ball 11 yards to start the drive. Remember they have to go 75 yards for a TD and you're telling me that Hue was on the sideline thinking he had the Ravens right where he wanted them after 2 plays, a full minute off the clock and you're still 64 yards away from the endzone? Hell even with :55 left with no TOs, they still had 48 yards to go. I can't speak to other games because each game situation is different. Your offense just gave you a 5 minute offensive drive that produced a 5 point lead your not worried about your DBs being tired. Again the yards don't matter, they have to get the ball into the endzone. You say Pees put them in position to cover passes with running WR, call me crazy but isn't that what their paid to do? 

The problem is you guys who want to bash Pees for the last drive still have a vivid picture of last year's team who would have given that game away. That's basically the same scenario from Week 2 last year vs the Raiders. In that game the Ravens had like two 15 yard penalties and a Int called back for a penalty. Again players determined the outcome, not scheme.. At some point players have to make plays. The same way CJ was in position to make the Int, Webb was in position to defend the Pryor pass, Wright was in position to make a tackle on Coleman in bounds, 

[Tru11]

6 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Yes it is that black and white because that's exactly what happened. For all the time McCown had on that drive to make plays down field, why didn't he do it? He threw the ball short for a reason. 5 plays, 27 yards and 2 minutes off the clock. You said they were picking up chunks, show me the chunks and i'll glad say I was wrong. 

Pass after pass like what? They used a full minute to complete 2 passes and move the ball 11 yards to start the drive. Remember they have to go 75 yards for a TD and you're telling me that Hue was on the sideline thinking he had the Ravens right where he wanted them after 2 plays, a full minute off the clock and you're still 64 yards away from the endzone? Hell even with :55 left with no TOs, they still had 48 yards to go. I can't speak to other games because each game situation is different. Your offense just gave you a 5 minute offensive drive that produced a 5 point lead your not worried about your DBs being tired. Again the yards don't matter, they have to get the ball into the endzone. You say Pees put them in position to cover passes with running WR, call me crazy but isn't that what their paid to do? 

The problem is you guys who want to bash Pees for the last drive still have a vivid picture of last year's team who would have given that game away. That's basically the same scenario from Week 2 last year vs the Raiders. In that game the Ravens had like two 15 yard penalties and a Int called back for a penalty. Again players determined the outcome, not scheme.. At some point players have to make plays. The same way CJ was in position to make the Int, Webb was in position to defend the Pryor pass, Wright was in position to make a tackle on Coleman in bounds, 

exactly.

its really a simple and easy to understand concept tbh.

lets say we go with pressure and send 5 or 6 guys at the QB.

that means we will have 5 to 6 guys to cover 4 to 5 receivers.

that means some receivers will be in single coverage.
all it then would take is 1 catch and a miss tackle to take it to the house.

give coleman and pryor speed and our inability to cover rbs and te , id say that would be a pretty dumb move on the last drive when all you have to do is stop the other team from scoring a TD....
 

[Maryland]

I dislike Pees because he coaches the DBs to generally always play too far off in coverage, but he coached a good game today. The 1st quarter failures were mostly on the players for not making plays. Wright was absolutely awful, easily the worst performer on the team today. Jimmy gave up a bad 3rd and long completion by not defending the line to go. Webb was... where was Webb? 

I like Pees because he really does get creative with blitzes at times and he's not afraid to send it; he usually understands that blitzing 4 is much more effective than sending 3 late-game; and he seems to do well vs the run for different reasons (mostly because he prioritizes stopping the run, but also because it's easier to pass on his weaker secondaries). He does have a problem with abandoning his game-plan during the final drive of a game and going full prevent-nothing defense, but a lot of coaches do that. It's a league-wide philosophical problem imo. 

Teams like the Vikings and Broncos have multiple high draft picks and big-name FAs invested in their secondaries, and it's paying off--they have great secondaries. In contrast, since the SB, we have not spent money well in the secondary, and our DB draft picks have busted. If the Ravens want to improve their secondary, then they need to acquire better talent, ideally through the draft (though Weddle is a nice FA addition). Scheme is only part of the problem. We haven't had the personnel to field a good secondary, not when Jimmy is hurt and not playing up to his contract, not when Webb is hurt and not playing up to his contract, and not when fielding a bunch of discarded DBs from other teams. The best way to improve this secondary is to spend draft picks on improving it, which is something we haven't done well lately. Yeah, Pees plays his corners too far off, but he hasn't exactly had a stellar secondary to work with, either. 

[BmoreBird22]

7 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

Pees isn't bad but he's not great, IMO. It's like food. You just got a burger from some fast food joint. Now, the burger's not bad but it's not your favorite burger either, and if a better, tastier burger came around you'd probably want to throw the fast food burger away and go for that tasty burger. Well, Dean Pees is that fast food burger, but the Ravens (the organization) seem to really like that fast food restaurant. Let's call Dean Pees Wendy's. I think that's a good example. You know, square shape and all. Anyway, I digress. I really wanted to upgrade that Wendy's burger into, I don't know, like a Red Robin or a Shake Shack (I don't see them as fast food) or even a freaking In-n-Out. You could even say Dean Pees is a Five Guy's burger if you want. Don't get caught up in semantics! 

The point is I want a better damn burger but this will do. I really wanted that Wade Phillips burger but we never went to the store to buy it.

I like Wendy's a hell of a lot more than I like Red Robin...

[BmoreBird22]

7 hours ago, redrum52 said:

Sometimes people can't accept the other teams are paid to make plays too.  That Haden pick was an insane play by a good player.

 

7 hours ago, MTRavensFan said:

True that. Haden played a phenomenal game all the way around.

You can't really be more textbook than that.

[BmoreBird22]

3 hours ago, Maryland said:

I dislike Pees because he coaches the DBs to generally always play too far off in coverage, but he coached a good game today. The 1st quarter failures were mostly on the players for not making plays. Wright was absolutely awful, easily the worst performer on the team today. Jimmy gave up a bad 3rd and long completion by not defending the line to go. Webb was... where was Webb? 

Pees apparently once was way in Jimmy's face asking if he wanted to play press man. I don't know where it came from, probably a Sound FX from NFL Network, and it was a few years ago, but a few posters have actually said he wants corners to get up in the receivers face.

But what 3rd and long are you referring to?

[JoeyFlex5]

7 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Come on man,  your sounding like a certain other poster on here using names like that 

I haven't been a forsett fan since kubiak left. 

As bad as he's been so far he's just validating my dislike for him as a player. He seems like a good guy and all, but he's been really bad so far this year and going out of bounds yesterday was the icing on the cake for me.

[JoeyFlex5]

I guess there are just 2 groups. Those who like Dean pees and those who are sick of seeing the same thing in 2 minute warnings over all these years. 

I know there's one common denominator though, and its not the players.

[Ravensfan23]

6 hours ago, Tru11 said:

exactly.

its really a simple and easy to understand concept tbh.

lets say we go with pressure and send 5 or 6 guys at the QB.

that means we will have 5 to 6 guys to cover 4 to 5 receivers.

that means some receivers will be in single coverage.
all it then would take is 1 catch and a miss tackle to take it to the house.

give coleman and pryor speed and our inability to cover rbs and te , id say that would be a pretty dumb move on the last drive when all you have to do is stop the other team from scoring a TD....
 

The funny part is on the 4th down play, Pees actually brought pressure. He tried to end the game by bringing pressure and forcing a quick pass that you hope is tightly contested. Everyone was in tight coverage with the exception of Wright who was 7yds off, probably in fear of Coleman how cooked him all game. And what happened short completion and two missed tackles.

I don't think this secondary has built up the equity yet to have faith they can just lock people down man to man while you bring heavy pressure with the game on the line.

[ludy51]

8 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Come on man,  your sounding like a certain other poster on here using names like that 

It's ok when he does it though apparently 

[The Raven]

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I like Wendy's a hell of a lot more than I like Red Robin...

Not sure I can trust you anymore 

[Willbacker]

7 hours ago, Tru11 said:

wright responsibility on that play is to not get beat deep and keep the receiver from going out of bound.

had he made the tackle then this would have been a non issue.

however he failed and that is on him and not the play call.

you dont play press coverage or tight coverage in that situation cause if you fail to jamm the receiver properly or  the pressure does not get there you will risk giving up more yards as sticking tight to a receiver is about the hardest job in the NFL.

situational football you go with what gives you the highest % of success given that you execute like you should.

Can you end the game on 4th and 4?? I'm sure its pretty apparent tackles aren't always made. Should they be? Yes but the bottomline is youre still giving them a chance to fling a hail mary which you know I guess those plays never work. Or do they

You can also show press and then bail. No need to jam. Or better yet play 6 or 7 yds off and then you gotta chance to come up and make the quick tackle.

On your last sentence the highest % of success is stopping somebody on 4th down not saying here get the 1st I make the tackle and run more clock.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Willbacker

[BmoreBird22]

3 minutes ago, The Raven said:

Not sure I can trust you anymore 

It's not that Wendy's is good, but the Red Robin by me is straight awful.