The annual Fire Dean Pees thread; 2016 edition

[JoeyFlex5]

9 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Go back and watch that final drive. First of all they had 3:00 on the clock to move the ball, so the less than 2 minute comment isn't true. 

Ok so now lets bring down the drive. You say they got chunk plays, again that isn't true unless 5-7 yards is your definition of "chunk". The Browns ran 9 plays on that drive. 7 of the 9 plays were short passes that didn't travel more than 6 yards down field. So even though McCown may have had time, the coverage dictated he throw short and it's on the defenders to make tackles. Again do your jobs players, not coach.

To go back to your "chunk" play claim, of the 7 completed only 2 went for more than 7 yards and both were a result of missed tackles. Hawkins for 16 yards, Coleman for 11 yards. Again, players do your job. But more importantly, 5 of those completions came before the Browns called a timeout @ :55 and gained a grand total of 27 yards with 2 minutes coming off the clock. 5 plays for 27 yards in 2 minutes isn't chunk plays. 

Now here's the scenario. The Browns have the ball at midfield(48 yardline) with no TOs left, 55 seconds left and facing a 3rd &10. You're telling me that this is not a favorable situation for the defense? So after a 7 yard completion that took another 20 seconds off the clock, the Browns are facing 4th & 3 with a running clock @ :34 and the ball on the 41 yardline. Still nowhere near the endzone. Now again, if the players do their jobs on the next play, Coleman is tackled in bounds and the Browns have to scramble to the LOS with a running clock  @ :27. They either run a quick play or clock the ball, either way it takes at least another 10-12 seconds off the clock and saves 7 yards. Now the Browns are more than likely looking at 2nd & 10, ball at the 37 yardline with about 15 seconds left on the clock. 

The Browns literally only threw the ball deep twice during that drive, the play to Pryor that didn't count and the Int by CJ. The common sense part of it is that you play "smart" situational football. Force the opponent to dink and dunk down the field and force them to at some point attack down field into the teeth of your defense. That's exactly what happened. Like it or not, it's Pees' job to call smart efficient gameplans, not worry about the nerves of the fanbase.  

 

do you really think its so black and white that you can say "the first few plays went for under 10 yards so youre wrong" ? 

when an offense starts completing pass after pass like that, things open up, youre letting them dictate the pace, your secondary isnt prepared to cover for 4+ seconds, the qb has a clean pocket so he can make all the throws he wants and your db's are sucking wind because the dc put them in a position to try to cover perfectly placed passes with free running wr's. thats why it starts with small plays and then bang bang 2 plays later theyre inside the 10 yard line and we caught a lucky break that brough them back with that bad flag. 

how many different secondary units do we need to see this happen with before you guys realize? 

[flynismo]

Holy hell...the defense gave up 20 points, blocked an XP and got a safety, recorded 3 sacks and generated pressure most of the afternoon, snatched two INTs and shut out their offense for over 3 consecutive quarters...why are we firing Pees now?

Edited September 19, 2016 by flynismo

[Willbacker]

Just now, flynismo said:

Holy hell...the defense gave up 20 points, recorded 3 sacks and generated pressure most of the afternoon, snatched two INTs and shut out their offense for over 3 consecutive quarters...why are we firing Pees now?

The taunting call possibly saved us Fly. Pees continuously plays soft at the end of halfs but I don't think he should be fired yet.

[flynismo]

Just now, Willbacker said:

The taunting call possibly saved us Fly. Pees continuously plays soft at the end of halfs but I don't think he should be fired yet.

Key word was "possibly". With 20 some seconds left, it is a stretch to assume our red zone defense would have crumbled after shutting them down all game long (sans first quarter). And had that actually happened, I would blame pretty much anyone for the loss not named Pees, Wallace or Jernigan

[flynismo]

Does anyone blame Pees for that 85 yard run by Crowell?

No, that should have been a 3 and cloud of dust, you say?

Then that makes the taunting irrelevant, since even had they scored, it would not have been enough.

Dude's defense has given up 27 points in two games. We're 2-0. Everyone knows Trestman is the new Pees, let's go get a lynch thread going for him instead.

Edited September 19, 2016 by flynismo

[Willbacker]

4 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Key word was "possibly". With 20 some seconds left, it is a stretch to assume our red zone defense would have crumbled after shutting them down all game long (sans first quarter). And had that actually happened, I would blame pretty much anyone for the loss not named Pees, Wallace or Jernigan

So his call to have Shareece Wright play 20 yds back on the 4th and 4 isn't on Pees right.

[flynismo]

Just now, Willbacker said:

So his call to have Shareece Wright play 20 yds back on the 4th and 4 isn't on Pees right.

If that's on Pees, so are the two INTs, the three sacks and bazillion pressures generated and shutting them down for three quarters. Pees put the guys in position to make those plays; don't just nitpick a handful of plays you don't agree with.

[Inqui]

Just now, flynismo said:

Key word was "possibly". With 20 some seconds left, it is a stretch to assume our red zone defense would have crumbled after shutting them down all game long (sans first quarter). And had that actually happened, I would blame pretty much anyone for the loss not named Pees, Wallace or Jernigan

Yeah, like I said in the first page playing soft and opening up the middle of the field for short passes was all about letting them burn the clock. For all Pees' faults, we've always been pretty good in the red zone so it seems like kind of a stretch to assume we'd have given up a TD when everyone in the stadium knew what they were trying to do.

[The Raven]

1 minute ago, Willbacker said:

So his call to have Shareece Wright play 20 yds back on the 4th and 4 isn't on Pees right.

1. Pees has made it abundantly clear that corners can choose their depth

2. If his assignment is deep third or deep fourth, is it that much of an issue?

@BmoreBird22, am I out of my depth here?

[flynismo]

Just now, The Raven said:

1. Pees has made it abundantly clear that corners can choose their depth

Yes, he has. And I'm not even going there; it's insane how people miss the big picture.

[Willbacker]

2 minutes ago, The Raven said:

1. Pees has made it abundantly clear that corners can choose their depth

2. If his assignment is deep third or deep fourth, is it that much of an issue?

@BmoreBird22, am I out of my depth here?

Then that's a problem. That was easy pickings on a 4th down play.

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, The Raven said:

1. Pees has made it abundantly clear that corners can choose their depth

2. If his assignment is deep third or deep fourth, is it that much of an issue?

@BmoreBird22, am I out of my depth here?

Nope, I would agree.

People don't really seem to understand that the depth of the corner is going to entirely depend on down, distance, called play, and the player you're going against. 

You're not going to go ahead and press Sammy Watkins or Corey Coleman in a Cover Zero. Alternatively, you probably will in a Cover 3 zone coverage.

If it's third and 25, you aren't going to press; you'll play 8-10 yards off and just keep the play in front. 

I understand a lot of these people want press coverage, but if a corner has faith in their ability to break on the ball and make a play, they're going to play off. Not a whole lot of room for turnovers in press coverage.

[flynismo]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

Not a whole lot of room for turnovers in press coverage.

Unless you're Joe Haden. That coverage on the Perriman INT was sick

[Willbacker]

4 minutes ago, flynismo said:

If that's on Pees, so are the two INTs, the three sacks and bazillion pressures generated and shutting them down for three quarters. Pees put the guys in position to make those plays; don't just nitpick a handful of plays you don't agree with.

Let me say this again he has been doing this continuously for years at the end of halves and we have paid for it in the end in lots of games. His defensive calls are good thruout the rest of the game.

[The Raven]

2 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Nope, I would agree.

People don't really seem to understand that the depth of the corner is going to entirely depend on down, distance, called play, and the player you're going against. 

You're not going to go ahead and press Sammy Watkins or Corey Coleman in a Cover Zero. Alternatively, you probably will in a Cover 3 zone coverage.

If it's third and 25, you aren't going to press; you'll play 8-10 yards off and just keep the play in front. 

I understand a lot of these people want press coverage, but if a corner has faith in their ability to break on the ball and make a play, they're going to play off. Not a whole lot of room for turnovers in press coverage.

Now, what about in zone plays on 3rd and 4? If your assignment is deep third, in that kind of scenario, what do you do? I think that's where I'm clueless and where a lot of people are frustrated.

[Willbacker]

3 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Nope, I would agree.

People don't really seem to understand that the depth of the corner is going to entirely depend on down, distance, called play, and the player you're going against. 

You're not going to go ahead and press Sammy Watkins or Corey Coleman in a Cover Zero. Alternatively, you probably will in a Cover 3 zone coverage.

If it's third and 25, you aren't going to press; you'll play 8-10 yards off and just keep the play in front. 

I understand a lot of these people want press coverage, but if a corner has faith in their ability to break on the ball and make a play, they're going to play off. Not a whole lot of room for turnovers in press coverage.

Ok what do you do on 4th and 4.

[Ravensfan23]

43 minutes ago, Inqui said:

Your posts in this thread have been fantastic, but you lost me here. That's just crazy talk.  

Yea, what was I thinking, It's Flock first, gameplan second. 

[ravensdfan]

So like most I despise the Pees' Special when we're protecting some minscule lead in the 4th quarter however, today, players were in position and didn't do their job. That was fairly obvious. Tackle the guy, don't let him run out of bounds for one thing. You have to protect the back end so you're not going to be rushing more than 4 in that situation.

My main issue is that this defense (and offense as well, but Trestman is only in his 2nd year) should NEVER come out like that 1st quarter. Especially against a divisional opponent. And that is absolutely on coaching, plus something we've seen from this team in the entire time Pees has been here.

 

Edit: Oh and I do want it duly noted I did NOT start this thread lol

 

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by ravensdfan

[BmoreBird22]

9 minutes ago, The Raven said:

Now, what about in zone plays on 3rd and 4? If your assignment is deep third, in that kind of scenario, what do you do? I think that's where I'm clueless and where a lot of people are frustrated.

The beauty of these zone coverages is that they allow freedom to the corner to come press and carry their man down the sideline or to drop back seven to eight yards and drop into their zone. That's gonna depend on how confident the corner is that they can actually reach their depth.

Again, it's totally up the corner to say that they want to come up and press and carry their man down the sideline into their deep zone or not. What's more common is the corner will show press, then bail out at the snap and create a cushion to not get beat over the top, but also not allow too much room underneath.

Some of what I've seen recently to combat some of these short yardage situations is that the team will run a stacked formation and run similarly breaking routes on them to tie up the corner into a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation where the parallel routes at different depths will always leave one receiver open.

But, also, let's say the Ravens do run Cover 3 in a third and four and the corners decide to play eight yards off. This, in theory, should have an answer to it because the Will and SS should both be buzzing out to the flat. The strong safety is already in the box, so to just hook out to the flat doesn't require covering a lot of ground. At that point, it's just about reaching your depth quickly and then executing the tackle.

Edited September 19, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[flynismo]

Ah well, leave it to us to want to fire someone after a win...we may have a scrub QB, a stupid HC and a bum DC, but we're still 2-0, I'm happy.

[BmoreBird22]

8 minutes ago, Willbacker said:

Ok what do you do on 4th and 4.

Read the above, but I do agree it is frustrating.

[Inqui]

5 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Nope, I would agree.

People don't really seem to understand that the depth of the corner is going to entirely depend on down, distance, called play, and the player you're going against. 

You're not going to go ahead and press Sammy Watkins or Corey Coleman in a Cover Zero. Alternatively, you probably will in a Cover 3 zone coverage.

If it's third and 25, you aren't going to press; you'll play 8-10 yards off and just keep the play in front. 

I understand a lot of these people want press coverage, but if a corner has faith in their ability to break on the ball and make a play, they're going to play off. Not a whole lot of room for turnovers in press coverage.

People seem to call for press coverage as if it's a magic bullet that'll suddenly get us off the field. But aside from how a lot of our guys are too small to pull off something like that, if you try to press a guy like Corey Coleman and he gets a clean break off it, he's suddenly a good four or five steps ahead and they've got an easy six coming.

[BmoreBird22]

14 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Unless you're Joe Haden. That coverage on the Perriman INT was sick

I wish I had the All-22, but that looked like a Cover 3, possible Quarters

[BmoreBird22]

2 minutes ago, Inqui said:

People seem to call for press coverage as if it's a magic bullet that'll suddenly get us off the field. But aside from how a lot of our guys are too small to pull off something like that, if you try to press a guy like Corey Coleman and he gets a clean break off it, he's suddenly a good four or five steps ahead and they've got an easy six coming.

Yeah, you're basically, at that point, committing to a Cover 2 look, maybe Cover 4 (for the ability to double) if they're running out of a two receiver or receiver set, assuming the slot receiver doesn't go vertical. 

Press man definitely has it's pitfalls, especially when this is a secondary looking for more turnovers.

Edited September 19, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[The Raven]

3 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I wish I had the All-22, but that looked like a Cover 3, possible Quarters

It looked like cover 3 to me.

RE: your other post. I tend to agree with that, but I feel like our LB/S is always slow getting out to the buzz/flat.

I remember in high school our corners were taught to be at six yards for cover three -- not a yard deeper or a yard shorter. I think that's a good place to be.

Edited September 19, 2016 by The Raven

[flynismo]

7 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I wish I had the All-22, but that looked like a Cover 3, possible Quarters

I don't remember either; I just remember Haden running and keeping up with Perriman for about 15-20 yards just off the right hash. Probably quarters if it was indeed zone.

* edit, nevermind, you were talking about the first INT

Edited September 19, 2016 by flynismo

[Willbacker]

3 minutes ago, Inqui said:

People seem to call for press coverage as if it's a magic bullet that'll suddenly get us off the field. But aside from how a lot of our guys are too small to pull off something like that, if you try to press a guy like Corey Coleman and he gets a clean break off it, he's suddenly a good four or five steps ahead and they've got an easy six coming.

You can bail on press coverage in zone which is what they was running at the end.

8 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Read the above, but I do agree it is frustrating.

If its on Wright then hopefully he learns from it.

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, The Raven said:

It looked like cover 3 to me.

RE: your other post. I tend to agree with that. I feel like our LB/S is always slow getting out to the buzz/flat.

I remember in high school our corners were taught to be at six yards for cover three -- not a yard deeper or a yard shorter. I think that's a good place to be.

Seattle uses a base Cover 3 and they play pretty much strictly press coverage. But at the same time, they draft guys who are like 6'3" and can disrupt the man to the sideline and carry their receiver down the field. It's a little more difficult when you've got guys like Wright who are 5'11" and don't have freakishly long arms.

I think seven or eight yards is the standard in the NFL, but I wouldn't mind the receivers cheating up a little bit on their assignments until the linebackers and safeties are a little more athletic.

[The Raven]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

Seattle uses a base Cover 3 and they play pretty much strictly press coverage. But at the same time, they draft guys who are like 6'3" and can disrupt the man to the sideline and carry their receiver down the field. It's a little more difficult when you've got guys like Wright who are 5'11" and don't have freakishly long arms.

I think seven or eight yards is the standard in the NFL, but I wouldn't mind the receivers cheating up a little bit on their assignments until the linebackers and safeties are a little more athletic.

Honestly I feel like offenses kill us in the flats and buzz zones. We always seem so vulnerable there

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, Willbacker said:

You can bail on press coverage in zone which is what they was running at the end.

If its on Wright then hopefully he learns from it.

Well, the difficult thing for right in a lot of these zone schemes is he is not a big corner, so it's not exactly easy for him to reroute his man. When his assignment is to be the deep third, it's because he is the last man on that side of the hash for deep coverage. If he gambles on pressing and his man gets by him, you're looking at 6.