The Good, Bad and Awful week 2 vs Browns.

[Doomville]

Just now, rmcjacket23 said:

1. You're getting no pass rush because they're playing a prevent defense where they're only rushing 3 or 4 guys. That stops once you're that deep in the red zone, because the field shrinks significantly. Its why you see so many times give up 80 yards or so on a drive like that and then tighten up in the red zone. We are actually pretty notorious for that.

2. Nobody is suggesting the defense is dominant, though I'm not sure how you would say that "that's the kind of team we are right now" when you haven't actually seen the team do what you suggested they would do. 

Just comes off as baseless assumptions to me. A lot of 2015 analysis being used on a 2016 team.

Ofc 2015 analysis will be used for 2016 until we have enough data on the 2016 team. This defense is NOT dominant. We have played the likes of tyrod and mccown. Against tyrod, we were great and against mccown of all people, we sucked in the first quarter. Until i see this defense hold a top 10 qb to a bad game, i am not a believer because i have been let down by this team in the past few years when i thought our defense would be stellar

[Cville-Raven]

10 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Good call above on the return game.  Hester still has it.  The KO return was obviously huge, but you can't overlook those punt returns either.  Although he may have only gotten a few yards on some of them, he typically always made the first man miss and gained something out of nothing.  It's been a long time since we've had that.

Yeah he can def still make plays.

[redrum52]

32 minutes ago, Jekkutin said:

Typical, people freaking out during the game and now that we got this ugly win through bad referrees and lucky bounces everything is supposed to be just ok ? No, no and no. Run game god awful, we don't have a run game. Pass rush, god awful, we don't have a pass rush. Flacco got better, that's good. Can't wait to get Doom back, seriously we're in bad need of him.. Taunting call was hilarious, should've been probably td ending drive, but I'll take this as a Ravens fan. Either way, win, ugly win but a win.

Run game non existent and no kinds of edge pressure.  The interior is doing their job, I think.

[BmoreBird22]

For those who said Jimmy had a bad game, I'd encourage you to rewatch the game and try to actually pay attention to coverages. 

Wright, on the other hand, was abysmal. He got worked all day by Corey Coleman on the two things Coleman can actually do- run a straight line and catch jump balls.

[RavensFanMania]

46 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

The good: The rest of the game after their third scoring drive. 

The Bad: The first three drives

The Ugly: The Cleveland Browns.... Only they would blow a 20 point lead. 

 

Like I've always said.. THE BROWNS ALWAYS FIND A WAY TO LOSE

so do the Potomac Drainage Basin 30 miles south of us

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

For those who said Jimmy had a bad game, I'd encourage you to rewatch the game and try to actually pay attention to coverages. 

Wright, on the other hand, was abysmal. He got worked all day by Corey Coleman on the two things Coleman can actually do- run a straight line and catch jump balls.

 

Jimmy had a few four yard completions, but nothing to torrent fist pumping. Wright was bad but I think he could rebound easy. He did last year after a terrible game vs the Browns with a worse pass rush than we have now. And he played well last week. 

[callahan09]

The Ravens won!  I'm happy with that.  The defense was lights out after the first quarter.  The offense was humming pretty good after that as well.  Gutty effort to come from down 20-0 and end up going on a 25-0 run to win the game.

[BmoreBird22]

One perplexing issue with the run game is that Trestman likes to run inside runs, but with Zuttah generating no push and often allowing penetration/stuffs, Trestman has to run to the edge. Issue is that Wagner has looked pretty poor and I don't really see the speed in the backs to hit the edge and turn the corner.

Running game needs a boost from the offensive line if they're gonna get better.

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

Jimmy had a few four yard completions, but nothing to torrent fist pumping. Wright was bad but I think he could rebound easy. He did last year after a terrible game vs the Browns with a worse pass rush than we have now. And he played well last week. 

I think I counted three completions allowed and one was a zone coverage that would be very difficult to put on him. However, he needed to breakdown better and make that tackle on Corey Coleman.

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, Doomville said:

Ofc 2015 analysis will be used for 2016 until we have enough data on the 2016 team. This defense is NOT dominant. We have played the likes of tyrod and mccown. Against tyrod, we were great and against mccown of all people, we sucked in the first quarter. Until i see this defense hold a top 10 qb to a bad game, i am not a believer because i have been let down by this team in the past few years when i thought our defense would be stellar

Well, you've got two games. To ignore those two games in favor of another season doesn't seem wise to me.

Again, could care less about having a dominant defense. Not a requirement to win in this league, nor does any realistic Ravens fan really think this defense is even built to be "dominant". 

This is sounding more and more like an expectation problem on YOUR part, nothing of the Ravens issue. 

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, BmoreBird22 said:

One perplexing issue with the run game is that Trestman likes to run inside runs, but with Zuttah generating no push and often allowing penetration/stuffs, Trestman has to run to the edge. Issue is that Wagner has looked pretty poor and I don't really see the speed in the backs to hit the edge and turn the corner.

Running game needs a boost from the offensive line if they're gonna get better.

Perhaps the real question is... can our offensive line or running game, given our personnel, still be effective without the ability to cut block?

We were an offensive line that used a lot of zone stretch concepts and did a lot of double teaming and cutting.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

A win is a win is a win. I'll take it. 

After the first 3 drives we won 25-0. Just so happens the first 3 drives were about as bad as can be. 

The run defense wasn't awful. Take away the 85 yard TD and they were fine. Definitely got better as the day went on. 

The pass rush was fine too. Zadarius missed a gimme sack that led to a big play, and maybe we didn't hit home often enough but we battered the crap out of McCown. It clearly had an accumulative effect on him. 

And the offense came through when it mattered. 

Was it pretty? No. I foolishly predicted a blow out. In our best years we rarely blow out the Browns. This is their SB. Playing the team that left town and has success. 

Plus, dealing with the loss of Coach Brooks yesterday has an effect. Idc what anyone says. That kind of thing goes one of two ways... either it fires everyone up and they play lights out or you come out in a malaise. We had the latter, but they guts out a win that bad teams lose and good teams find a way. 

This is the NFL. We faced a savvy veteran. Teams usually rally around a new QB in their first game. We took their best punch and then knocked em out for 3 quarters. Moore dropped an easy TD and Flacco took a stupid shot when we were in FG range. 10 easy points we left on the field. Game should've been closed out by the 3rd qtr. 

[GrimCoconut]

8 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

For those who said Jimmy had a bad game, I'd encourage you to rewatch the game and try to actually pay attention to coverages. 

Wright, on the other hand, was abysmal. He got worked all day by Corey Coleman on the two things Coleman can actually do- run a straight line and catch jump balls.

Wright was abused so bad that I think he will need to go to the police and file a domestic violence charge on Coleman. Jimmy was not bad at all except not getting an easy interception he should've 

Edited September 18, 2016 by GrimCoconut
Autocorrect baby

[JamesRaven]

Would have lost that game last year. 

[BmoreBird22]

A few notes on the defense that should be encouraging. 

The Browns gained 387 yards on 11 drives. One of those included 82 yards on a single run by Crowell, meaning the Browns got 305 on 10 drives. The Browns also had a 75 yard drive, so they got 230 on nine drives. The Ravens really clamped down with the exception of two long drives that were literally the first two of the game. 

The Browns started 5/5 on third down, but finished 8/15. Take away the first three drives and the Browns are 3/10 on third down. 

I'd be pretty happy with that.

[BmoreBird22]

3 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Perhaps the real question is... can our offensive line or running game, given our personnel, still be effective without the ability to cut block?

We were an offensive line that used a lot of zone stretch concepts and did a lot of double teaming and cutting.

@The Raven pointed out they were running a lot more effectively on gap concept style runs, which is something Trestman ran in Chicago, apparently.

I'd imagine the zone scheme isn't for the Ravens anymore without the cut block, but then you run into the issue of personnel. Wagner and Zuttah are built for the zone scheme and not much else. 

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

I have the feeling Brian Billicks comments about the browns having no wins on their schedule is the reason the browns came out so fired up against us.

 

[Doomville]

6 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Well, you've got two games. To ignore those two games in favor of another season doesn't seem wise to me.

Again, could care less about having a dominant defense. Not a requirement to win in this league, nor does any realistic Ravens fan really think this defense is even built to be "dominant". 

This is sounding more and more like an expectation problem on YOUR part, nothing of the Ravens issue. 

in those two games, i have not seen a situation yet where our defense has stopped an offense from scoring a TD with 3-4 chances to go less than 10 yards. So, where do YOU get the confidence that we could have stopped the browns from getting a touchdown. I am not expecting anything from this defense which is why i said that i don't think we could have stopped the browns

[rmcjacket23]

3 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

A few notes on the defense that should be encouraging. 

The Browns gained 387 yards on 11 drives. One of those included 82 yards on a single run by Crowell, meaning the Browns got 305 on 10 drives. The Browns also had a 75 yard drive, so they got 230 on nine drives. The Ravens really clamped down with the exception of two long drives that were literally the first two of the game. 

The Browns started 5/5 on third down, but finished 8/15. Take away the first three drives and the Browns are 3/10 on third down. 

I'd be pretty happy with that.

From 2nd quarter on, Browns had 166 total yards on offense on 46 plays, an average of 3.6 yards/play. 8 straight scoreless drives, including 5 punts, 2 INTs and a missed FG.

During that stretch, Browns had 40 rushing yards on 17 carries.

[BmoreBird22]

2 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

From 2nd quarter on, Browns had 166 total yards on offense on 46 plays, an average of 3.6 yards/play. 8 straight scoreless drives, including 5 punts, 2 INTs and a missed FG.

During that stretch, Browns had 40 rushing yards on 17 carries.

I knew someone had the stats.

Say what you will about Pees, but he called a damn good game.

[rmcjacket23]

5 minutes ago, Doomville said:

in those two games, i have not seen a situation yet where our defense has stopped an offense from scoring a TD with 3-4 chances to go less than 10 yards. So, where do YOU get the confidence that we could have stopped the browns from getting a touchdown. I am not expecting anything from this defense which is why i said that i don't think we could have stopped the browns

So that's your basis? 

OK... I'll use the same logic. In those two games, I've not yet seen a situation where our defense COULDN'T stop an offense from scoring a TD with 3-4 chances to go less than 10 yards. 

[RavensFanMania]

42 minutes ago, RAYvenFan20 said:

Pierce needs some love after that game. He balled oh so hard

Totally Love his heart.  This draft has been amazing.

[BrownsFan]

The Good:  Will give the Ravens defense props - they came out and did what they needed to do for three quarters after an awful first quarter on their part.  I'm also giving a consolation "good" to Josh McCown - I believe his injury is worse than it's being advertised right now and hopefully I am wrong but either way he went out there and did what he could and deserves something for that.

The Bad:  The Browns offense overall after the first quarter - just flat.  It's a very young team and my expectations for them this season are low at best as I know it's going to be a long year but they still looked very bad at times and made some very stupid mistakes in the penalty game that really hurt their limited great chances to get points on the board.

The Ugly:  The Pryor call at the end.  I'll be the first to say that the penalty did not cost the Browns the game; if they had played with any shred of decency in the last three quarters of the game then they wouldn't have been in that position to begin with.  With that said though, that was such an awful call on the refs and it's freaking clear as day that Pryor was not taunting.  Refs are human beings and I understand that they make bad calls but seriously - this call was just unreal.  Pryor and the Browns have ever right to be pissed about it but perhaps they will use that going forward to play better for 60 minutes instead of 18.

Side note:  congrats on the win.  The Ravens deserved it, they never let it get too out of hand and they fought back.  That is what makes a great team - never giving up.

[Doomville]

1 minute ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I knew someone had the stats.

Say what you will about Pees, but he called a damn good game.

Ya. i used to be one of the guys last year who was calling for pees' head but now i see that it was mainly the lack of talent on defense (which we still need more of)

 

1 minute ago, rmcjacket23 said:

So that's your basis? 

OK... I'll use the same logic. In those two games, I've not yet seen a situation where our defense COULDN'T stop an offense from scoring a TD with 3-4 chances to go less than 10 yards. 

Ok so neither of us are right. I don't trust our CBs outside of smith and think the browns would have gotten the TD. You think otherwise. Great, we will agree to disagree. I would love to be wrong because that would mean that our defense is great but we will wait and see.

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, BrownsFan said:

The Good:  Will give the Ravens defense props - they came out and did what they needed to do for three quarters after an awful first quarter on their part.  I'm also giving a consolation "good" to Josh McCown - I believe his injury is worse than it's being advertised right now and hopefully I am wrong but either way he went out there and did what he could and deserves something for that.

The Bad:  The Browns offense overall after the first quarter - just flat.  It's a very young team and my expectations for them this season are low at best as I know it's going to be a long year but they still looked very bad at times and made some very stupid mistakes in the penalty game that really hurt their limited great chances to get points on the board.

The Ugly:  The Pryor call at the end.  I'll be the first to say that the penalty did not cost the Browns the game; if they had played with any shred of decency in the last three quarters of the game then they wouldn't have been in that position to begin with.  With that said though, that was such an awful call on the refs and it's freaking clear as day that Pryor was not taunting.  Refs are human beings and I understand that they make bad calls but seriously - this call was just unreal.  Pryor and the Browns have ever right to be pissed about it but perhaps they will use that going forward to play better for 60 minutes instead of 18.

Side note:  congrats on the win.  The Ravens deserved it, they never let it get too out of hand and they fought back.  That is what makes a great team - never giving up.

Its a bad call. No question about it.

[rmcjacket23]

Just now, Doomville said:

Ya. i used to be one of the guys last year who was calling for pees' head but now i see that it was mainly the lack of talent on defense (which we still need more of)

 

Ok so neither of us are right. I don't trust our CBs outside of smith and think the browns would have gotten the TD. You think otherwise. Great, we will agree to disagree. I would love to be wrong because that would mean that our defense is great but we will wait and see.

Realistically, you wouldn't have learned a ton from that defense on that drive anyway. If we gave up the TD, that doesn't make our defense bad, nor does stopping them make it great.

We're somewhere in the middle and always have been.

[The Raven]

22 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Perhaps the real question is... can our offensive line or running game, given our personnel, still be effective without the ability to cut block?

We were an offensive line that used a lot of zone stretch concepts and did a lot of double teaming and cutting.

 

17 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

@The Raven pointed out they were running a lot more effectively on gap concept style runs, which is something Trestman ran in Chicago, apparently.

I'd imagine the zone scheme isn't for the Ravens anymore without the cut block, but then you run into the issue of personnel. Wagner and Zuttah are built for the zone scheme and not much else. 

It's really really difficult to effectively run a stretch zone while doubling if you can't cut. The whole idea of the stretch zone is to, well, stretch the defense's front to open up lanes. But if you're double teaming -- and you can't cut block -- you're not going to stretch them effectively or quickly. So there won't be any movement. 

Under Caldwell, we used the zone scheme, but we doubled a lot, and that hurt our ability to open lanes. When Kubiak got here, we stopped doubling so much. Now, I think we're doubling more. It's not terrible to double on inside zones, but to me, if you're gonna run inside, just go with a gap scheme and hit em harder. Inside zones take long to develop and are difficult to make work if you ask me. If I'm running inside, I want my offensive line trying to kick the crap out of someone, getting vertical movement instead of horizontal. 

Getting rid of the zone cut block puts extra pressure on the center. It's hard for a center to snap the ball and get to the nose's outside shoulder. So you double the guy. But if you don't cut him, it's hard to get to the second level.

 

Edited September 18, 2016 by The Raven

[jimmypowder]

54 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

The good: just heard Flacco say he went to Trestman to get the game plan changed.  Said what they were doing wasn't working and they need to pick it up.

Trestman is a bad play caller . Period. 

I'm hoping this is his last year here . 

 

[BmoreBird22]

3 minutes ago, BrownsFan said:

The Good:  I'm also giving a consolation "good" to Josh McCown - I believe his injury is worse than it's being advertised right now and hopefully I am wrong but either way he went out there and did what he could and deserves something for that.

I never got why McCown wasn't given more chances to start in the NFL. He's a 15 year vet who is intelligent, so nothing will surprise him or catch him off guard. He's seen it all and he'll know how to counteract it, to a degree.

He's also clearly got some arm talent to him. No, he's not a Joe Flacco/Matthew Stafford that can make any throw effortlessly, but he's not a Ryan Tannehill/Teddy Bridgewater that cannot make certain throws.

I think the Browns would have been better off not signing RGIII.

[BmoreBird22]

1 minute ago, The Raven said:

It's really really difficult to effectively run a stretch zone while doubling if you can't cut. The whole idea of the stretch zone is to, well, stretch the defense's front to open up lanes. But if you're double teaming -- and you can't cut block -- you're not going to stretch them effectively or quickly. So there won't be any movement. 

Under Caldwell, we used the zone scheme, but we doubled a lot, and that hurt our ability to open lanes. When Kubiak got here, we stopped doubling so much. Now, I think we're doubling more. It's not terrible to double on inside zones, but to me, if you're gonna run inside, just go with a gap scheme and hit em harder. Inside zones take long to develop and are difficult to make work if you ask me. If I'm running inside, I want my offensive line trying to kick the crap out of someone, getting vertical movement instead of horizontal. 

What is a gap scheme and how does it differ from a man scheme?