2017 Hall of Fame Nominees

[BmoreBird22]

15 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

Played a lot in domes and was just under 80% in accuracy rate. The longevity is nice but it is tough for me to put any kicker in the hall. Vinatieri is about the only deserving one I can think of due to some real clutch kicks and the longevity. If Anderson is deserving then where does it stop with kickers? I think you can now make a case for a lot of guys.

Doesn't have the longevity to me and I think the scheme helped him out a lot(remember who the coaches were here during his good years). I could make a pretty solid argument for Jamal being better but I doubt Jamal will come close to the hall.

Dawkins was huge for the Eagles and then the Broncos, thought he deserved it and we both agree TO should be in

I don't think domes actually help kickers all that much. Without any winds, it's literally your leg and your leg only. It's not the huge advantage that Denver is. And you have to consider, he was first team All-Decade for two decades, holds an NFL record for points scored, led two franchises in points (you should check out the Saints record prior to his arrival; he was a huge weapon for them), and often led the league in touchbacks when kicks were on the 30. 6 time first team All-Pro and 7 time Pro-Bowl kicker. I don't think you'll find too many guys with that type of legacy at a fairly volatile position. I think realistically, Tucker and Bailey are two guys currently or recently in the NFL that could make it. Vinateri maybe with those clutch playoff kicks and even Bailey is one I'm a little shaky one because you never really think of him as "the best." I don't think Anderson is a bad pick at all, honestly.

I don't think Jamal has the same case as Davis. Davis was the most dominant running back of the 90's behind only Barry Sanders. And the thing is, Davis got better in every single year he played, so one truly has to wonder what the rest of his career would look like and you have to think that's what the committee looked at. Had his career not been injury marred, could we have been talking about one of the best ever? He's a huge reason Elway even won a ring. I wouldn't have a huge issue with Jamal, but outside of his 2003 season, he was great, but not best in the league type material to me. I think it hurts Lewis that he had some very mediocre years after the 2,000 yard season.

I think Dawkins will get his due eventually, but it'll be very hard next year with Ronde Barber being up for induction. 

[berad]

Guy and Anderson getting in spells good things for great specialists. Can't be upset with that. Maybe Stover one day.

Was more surprised at Terrell Davis. He had a great 4 year run, sure, but so did Ray Rice. Their all-purpose numbers, outside of TDs, are actually pretty comparable. Ray Rice is no Hall of Famer for the same reason Davis shouldn't be - career longevity. His career numbers put him well below guys like Clinton Portis, Fred Taylor, Chris Johnson, Shaun Alexander, MJD, etc. He's not even in that class in terms of a career. Shame.

Jerry Jones was fine, it just made the show jump the shark to become a Cowboys love-fest. Art Modell is equally, if not more, deserving.

Dawkins should get his due soon. Faneca, too. Next years class, I fully expect Ray, Moss, and Barber to get in first time.

[52520Andrew]

2 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I don't think domes actually help kickers all that much. Without any winds, it's literally your leg and your leg only. It's not the huge advantage that Denver is. And you have to consider, he was first team All-Decade for two decades, holds an NFL record for points scored, led two franchises in points (you should check out the Saints record prior to his arrival; he was a huge weapon for them), and often led the league in touchbacks when kicks were on the 30. 6 time first team All-Pro and 7 time Pro-Bowl kicker. I don't think you'll find too many guys with that type of legacy at a fairly volatile position. I think realistically, Tucker and Bailey are two guys currently or recently in the NFL that could make it. Vinateri maybe with those clutch playoff kicks and even Bailey is one I'm a little shaky one because you never really think of him as "the best." I don't think Anderson is a bad pick at all, honestly.

I don't think Jamal has the same case as Davis. Davis was the most dominant running back of the 90's behind only Barry Sanders. And the thing is, Davis got better in every single year he played, so one truly has to wonder what the rest of his career would look like and you have to think that's what the committee looked at. Had his career not been injury marred, could we have been talking about one of the best ever? He's a huge reason Elway even won a ring. I wouldn't have a huge issue with Jamal, but outside of his 2003 season, he was great, but not best in the league type material to me. I think it hurts Lewis that he had some very mediocre years after the 2,000 yard season.

I think Dawkins will get his due eventually, but it'll be very hard next year with Ronde Barber being up for induction. 

Perfect conditions every time. Sure it is your leg alone but it beats kicking in Pittsburgh in December or in the snow. I mean how many times does the wind knock an errant kick back in as opposed to knocking a good kick out? How many times has kicking in ideal conditions caused a missed kick?Sure you don't get the wind at your back but that is a 50-50 proposition which can cancel itself out and not everyone kicks in Denver all the time. It helps a kicker to know that there is no swirling winds that they have to account for in the stadium and they can just kick it like it is a perfectly clear day without adjusting the angle. I agree he helped teams but so have a lot of guys. Maybe I am underestimating him a bit but can't see him getting in over T.O or Dawkins.

I think Kubiak and Shanahan are the big reasons for his success. How have backs done under Kubes again? And look at the rushing attack for Atlanta who is Kyle to be fair but I am sure he took a lot of notes from those days. It really isn't hard to look good when those guys are your coaches. Then you have the fact that Denver was pumping out 1,000 yard rushers with that zone scheme. To me it would be like putting Welker in the hall. Good player but he was the first guy to get a specific system to make him look good. The Broncos in those days were like the Cowboys now. Lewis on the other hand pretty much was the guy on offense for the Ravens over a number of years and his 2,000 yard season was pretty impressive. He got worn down after that which happens to all backs(seriously look it up, especially Davis) and then found his groove again for one last year in Cleveland before going downhill for good. Put him in that scheme in Denver and no doubt in my mind he puts up similar if not better numbers over a longer period of time. And that is a pretty solid argument right there so if I can come up with that with fairly little thought and Lewis probably won't sniff the hall, why again does Davis deserve to be in?

Dawkins has a wait with Barber, Reed the next year and Polomalu after that. Should have just put him in this year.

[BmoreBird22]

22 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

Perfect conditions every time. Sure it is your leg alone but it beats kicking in Pittsburgh in December or in the snow. I mean how many times does the wind knock an errant kick back in as opposed to knocking a good kick out? How many times has kicking in ideal conditions caused a missed kick?Sure you don't get the wind at your back but that is a 50-50 proposition which can cancel itself out and not everyone kicks in Denver all the time. It helps a kicker to know that there is no swirling winds that they have to account for in the stadium and they can just kick it like it is a perfectly clear day without adjusting the angle. I agree he helped teams but so have a lot of guys. Maybe I am underestimating him a bit but can't see him getting in over T.O or Dawkins.

I think Kubiak and Shanahan are the big reasons for his success. How have backs done under Kubes again? And look at the rushing attack for Atlanta who is Kyle to be fair but I am sure he took a lot of notes from those days. It really isn't hard to look good when those guys are your coaches. Then you have the fact that Denver was pumping out 1,000 yard rushers with that zone scheme. To me it would be like putting Welker in the hall. Good player but he was the first guy to get a specific system to make him look good. The Broncos in those days were like the Cowboys now. Lewis on the other hand pretty much was the guy on offense for the Ravens over a number of years and his 2,000 yard season was pretty impressive. He got worn down after that which happens to all backs(seriously look it up, especially Davis) and then found his groove again for one last year in Cleveland before going downhill for good. Put him in that scheme in Denver and no doubt in my mind he puts up similar if not better numbers over a longer period of time. And that is a pretty solid argument right there so if I can come up with that with fairly little thought and Lewis probably won't sniff the hall, why again does Davis deserve to be in?

Dawkins has a wait with Barber, Reed the next year and Polomalu after that. Should have just put him in this year.

There's a reason Justin Tucker's 61 yard field goal is the longest ever in a dome. There's only been three (including that one) kicked in a dome. And even then, he's not playing every single game in a dome. I have no idea what the stadiums were like in the 80's or 90's. But I will say is it's a wash when talking about an advantage. I don't think domes actually provide the huge advantage that many people think they do. Sure, it's nice to play without weather, but it's not the difference between a best ever player or an all time great season and an average player. Now, would I have put TO in before him? In a heartbeat. I just don't think Anderson should be left out of of the HoF.

Like I said, Davis was a case of literally improving every single year. I do agree that the Denver scheme helps a lot, but a lot still goes back onto the player to do their job. TD just fit the scheme and was able to run with it. I was surprised by his inclusion, but ultimately, I don't think he's undeserving. I think Lewis is hurt a little by the recency effect because he played at the same time at LT, a top 5 back ever, and then finished off his career with Peterson starting up as one of the best backs ever. I just think he gets lost in the shuffle because after the 2003 season, he never really approached that greatness again.

He's one I was personally back and forth on, but man, seeing those names three years in a row, it might have been better just to put him in.

[52520Andrew]

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

There's a reason Justin Tucker's 61 yard field goal is the longest ever in a dome. There's only been three (including that one) kicked in a dome. And even then, he's not playing every single game in a dome. I have no idea what the stadiums were like in the 80's or 90's. But I will say is it's a wash when talking about an advantage. I don't think domes actually provide the huge advantage that many people think they do. Sure, it's nice to play without weather, but it's not the difference between a best ever player or an all time great season and an average player. Now, would I have put TO in before him? In a heartbeat. I just don't think Anderson should be left out of of the HoF.

Like I said, Davis was a case of literally improving every single year. I do agree that the Denver scheme helps a lot, but a lot still goes back onto the player to do their job. TD just fit the scheme and was able to run with it. I was surprised by his inclusion, but ultimately, I don't think he's undeserving. I think Lewis is hurt a little by the recency effect because he played at the same time at LT, a top 5 back ever, and then finished off his career with Peterson starting up as one of the best backs ever. I just think he gets lost in the shuffle because after the 2003 season, he never really approached that greatness again.

He's one I was personally back and forth on, but man, seeing those names three years in a row, it might have been better just to put him in.

If the only stat you have as to why kicking outside is easier is the longest field goals inside vs out, you are missing a lot of info. Maybe if we are talking about Denver having an effect on long distance field goals it is a good stat to bring up but there are plenty of field goals shorter than 60 yards that aren't being taken into account. I mean sure, in perfect conditions with a 10mph tailwind, it is a lot easier to kick outside vs in a dome but that wind flips around for the other kicker so they have a headwind. And there are plenty of bad weather games out there as well. Taking out the variability of the elements overall is a huge plus since the kicker doesn't have to think about the conditions and can just kick the ball. Again, maybe I am underestimating Anderson but kicking in a dome vs in the elements helps.

I think he benefits from being the first guy to make money from Kubiak and Shanahan. If you took him out of that system, I really wonder if he would be as good as he is. I just think he was in the right place at the right time and at the end of the day there are too many other people out there for me to say he deserves to be in. How good would other guys look in that offense? Plus if we are putting him in for a couple really good seasons, that opens the door for a lot of other players who have had a couple good seasons and then not much else. Granted with the way RB has been devalued maybe we will see lesser players at RB make it in due to lack of talent outside of AP

[Willbacker]

58 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

If the only stat you have as to why kicking outside is easier is the longest field goals inside vs out, you are missing a lot of info. Maybe if we are talking about Denver having an effect on long distance field goals it is a good stat to bring up but there are plenty of field goals shorter than 60 yards that aren't being taken into account. I mean sure, in perfect conditions with a 10mph tailwind, it is a lot easier to kick outside vs in a dome but that wind flips around for the other kicker so they have a headwind. And there are plenty of bad weather games out there as well. Taking out the variability of the elements overall is a huge plus since the kicker doesn't have to think about the conditions and can just kick the ball. Again, maybe I am underestimating Anderson but kicking in a dome vs in the elements helps.

I think he benefits from being the first guy to make money from Kubiak and Shanahan. If you took him out of that system, I really wonder if he would be as good as he is. I just think he was in the right place at the right time and at the end of the day there are too many other people out there for me to say he deserves to be in. How good would other guys look in that offense? Plus if we are putting him in for a couple really good seasons, that opens the door for a lot of other players who have had a couple good seasons and then not much else. Granted with the way RB has been devalued maybe we will see lesser players at RB make it in due to lack of talent outside of AP

Anderson got in cuz he played since they wore leather helmets but seriously for the longest time he was known as the best kicker in the NFL. I like seeing these guys getting their due.

Also about Terrel Davis. They meant to put Terrel Owens in but somebody you know got them confused. Whoops!

[Ravenseconbeast]

I didnt understand how Jason Taylor was a 1st ballot HOFer.   

I like that Owens was jiffed.  He said so many stupid things about Raven organization and to Ray Lewis, he had karma waiting for him.  

[Ravenseconbeast]

On 2/7/2017 at 1:50 PM, BmoreBird22 said:

I don't think domes actually help kickers all that much. Without any winds, it's literally your leg and your leg only. It's not the huge advantage that Denver is. And you have to consider, he was first team All-Decade for two decades, holds an NFL record for points scored, led two franchises in points (you should check out the Saints record prior to his arrival; he was a huge weapon for them), and often led the league in touchbacks when kicks were on the 30. 6 time first team All-Pro and 7 time Pro-Bowl kicker. I don't think you'll find too many guys with that type of legacy at a fairly volatile position. I think realistically, Tucker and Bailey are two guys currently or recently in the NFL that could make it. Vinateri maybe with those clutch playoff kicks and even Bailey is one I'm a little shaky one because you never really think of him as "the best." I don't think Anderson is a bad pick at all, honestly.

I don't think Jamal has the same case as Davis. Davis was the most dominant running back of the 90's behind only Barry Sanders. And the thing is, Davis got better in every single year he played, so one truly has to wonder what the rest of his career would look like and you have to think that's what the committee looked at. Had his career not been injury marred, could we have been talking about one of the best ever? He's a huge reason Elway even won a ring. I wouldn't have a huge issue with Jamal, but outside of his 2003 season, he was great, but not best in the league type material to me. I think it hurts Lewis that he had some very mediocre years after the 2,000 yard season.

I think Dawkins will get his due eventually, but it'll be very hard next year with Ronde Barber being up for induction. 

6

If Dawkins gets in, Jamal should also. 

Personally I always thought Jamal was a much better player than Bus.   But i guess that would make me bias

[BmoreBird22]

2 hours ago, Ravenseconbeast said:

If Dawkins gets in, Jamal should also. 

Personally I always thought Jamal was a much better player than Bus.   But i guess that would make me bias

Bus had longevity on his side, I guess, but I was surprised he got in.

[berad]

On 2/11/2017 at 6:36 PM, BmoreBird22 said:

Bus had longevity on his side, I guess, but I was surprised he got in.

I was, too. He was never truly great, just played a ton of years. The under 4 yards/carry stat would have sunk him in my book.

[BmoreBird22]

2 hours ago, berad said:

I was, too. He was never truly great, just played a ton of years. The under 4 yards/carry stat would have sunk him in my book.

I think a ton of touchdowns is what propelled him.