Tracking Flacco's Progress

[Tru11]

16 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

He's not comparing the two. He's just bringing up the relevance of not dumping on a guy who has a lot of years left on him. There's still plenty of great football ahead for Joe. Even if you look at Big Ben, he only passed 30+ once before 2014 NFL season, side-by-side his numbers aren't really that great compared to Joe's in their first 9 seasons. 

this is true.

big ben had some outliers before age 30 but at 31 is when he took his game to the level he is playing now.

flacco is 31 right now though and he is running out of time in elevating his game TBH.

cant think of any players who improved greatly at age 32.
especially when he will have to learn a new scheme yet again with a new OC.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Tru11

[BmoreRavens732]

6 hours ago, kennethyamini1989 said:

he also had 3 superbowls by that time...and was averaging 3500-4k yards pre pass happy/friendly league....please do not compare Joe Flacco to Tom Brady arguably the best QB in NFL history...

Sorry man you can disagree if you want but my opinion is Brady is nothing but a system quarterback. I won't take away from his pure football intelligence but if you take Brady out of that system I guarantee you he becomes average at best. Brady gets his yards and touchdowns from the greatest tight end in the NFL and his shifty Lil receivers who run very shallow routes and pick up huge yac. You put him in ravens system and u have nothing! With the intelligence of Mr bill and his OC he's setup to be great. Again this is just my opinion and the way I see things. I'm certainly not the only one who sees this though.

Edited October 11, 2016 by BmoreRavens732

[flynismo]

2 hours ago, kennethyamini1989 said:

he also had 3 superbowls by that time...and was averaging 3500-4k yards pre pass happy/friendly league....please do not compare Joe Flacco to Tom Brady arguably the best QB in NFL history...

Oh look! Now winning games and Super Bowls is an individual accomplishment, not a team one! How convenient

[flynismo]

3 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

My bad, I guess I got it wrong. Tru11 is also right. Passing TDs is much different today than it was years ago. Especially considering that QBs at that period weren't pushing 40 TD passes. There is no comparison when it comes to Joe and Tom. Not comparing the two directly just stating that its never too late to break records. A much better guy to bring up would be Steve Young 

 

Long read, so if nothing else, just read the bolded parts.

Unlike most of these people, I actually grew up watching Brady play from day one.

Back then, I used to compare him and Peyton all the time...I'd think, you know, Brady may not put up nearly as good numbers as Peyton, I think I'd still rather have Brady. Brady just doesn't make a whole lot of mistakes, and always finds ways to keep the Pats in games. Back then, I used to watch NE a lot, they were very entertaining to watch -- I could never really put my finger on why exactly, I just felt that there was something different about them. After a few years, I began to see it for what it was. Now, these guys going on about the greatness of Brady because someone dared say something good about Flacco are going to be upset, but what I realized even 10 years ago before it became common knowledge is a few things:

1. Those OL of his were out of this world, which resulted in...

2. Him having all day long to wait for guys running designed short routes to get open

3. The rare occasions that a defense was able to overcome such a stout and well coached OL and the quick short passes to generate a good pass rush, Brady looked like absolute dog crap. But his running game and defense would still bail him out more often than not.

4. Most important of all, for the life of me, I could never understand how mediocre players like Deion Branch and David Boston ALWAYS SEEMED OPEN. I mean at first, this was part of the Brady magic to me...here he is, successful despite not having Harrison and Wayne like Manning did. But after I started noticing that no matter who Brady was throwing to, that guy always seemed to not have a defender near him, (unless it was a quick pass over the middle, which was a play they used a lot back then, especially against us), I began realizing that there is much more to what I am watching than just "Wow Brady is good".

Fast forward to 2007. I had a virtual stroke when my favorite player, the legendary Randy Moss, was sent to NE. I immediately traded for Brady and Randy in my FF leagues, despite the fact that allegedly Randy was washed up at that point. My years of watching NE play meant that I KNEW that either Brady or Moss were going to set some kind of record. How anyone could not forsee what was to come is beyond me. You put RANDY MOSS on a team that makes Branch and Boston look like solid players, and has an OL that will give Moss plenty of time to get downfield, along with a quarterback who is smart and accurate? How the hell am I seemingly the only person who sees what is about to go down??

The rest, as they say, is history. 

Here's an honest, unbiased opinion of a guy who has seen Brady grow up in this league and become what he is today.

Let me get the big one out of the way first. He owes most of his success to BB's brilliance. I cannot emphasize that enough. BB, those OL, their defenses and Vinateri carried Brady in his early years. From 2007 to today, it has been BB, those OL and some extraordinary talent on the offensive side of the ball that has allowed Brady to shine.

Now this is the point where people start to feel like what I am saying is "Brady bashing". No, it's common knowledge. It isn't some revolutionary idea that I came up with. I just happened to observe this developing in real time. For many years now, people like myself have said that "Brady is a product of the system". Eventually, with the internet becoming more and more ubiquitous each year (remember, even just ten years ago, many people did not have or want internet access), this observation began spreading like wildfire, and everyone and their grandmother started parroting it -- to the point where the phrase lost it's meaning and impact.

And besides, this is NOT bashing Brady. Fact is, he has assets that would ensure his success ANYWHERE he went. He is accurate with the ball, he has a high football IQ, a fast release, and most importantly of all, he is one of the hardest working and motivated players in the league. Tom Brady would be a good QB no matter whose jersey he had worn. But New England is the team that made him great.

For all those positive qualities I just mentioned, fact is, Brady has some severe limitations as well. His arm strength is adequate for his dink and dunk offenses, or for throwing hail maries to Randy Moss, but it is not enough to allow him to throw his way out of trouble. You ever wonder why he throws the ball away a lot, particularly in the red zone? Yes, often it is because it is the right thing to do. And often, it is because he does not have the physical ability to consistently throw balls into coverage. Anyone who has played football at any level can tell you this: you can beat good single coverage with a spot on throw. Any QB can do that; Brady is accurate enough that he can do it consistently, to his credit. To beat double coverage? Either you need a size mismatch, or you need an absolutely on point throw and a missile for an arm. That Brady does not have. Don't believe me? Pay very close attention next time you see Brady in the red zone, where this will be at it's most obvious. Not near the goal line, where his dumpoffs get him easy TDs, but from 10 - 20 yards out. If Gronk isn't in single coverage, he will rarely try to hit a WR while in the end zone unless there is a big hole to throw into, he'll throw the pass short and hope to get some YAC.

Brady also has zero mobility, nor is he particularly good throwing it on the run. Stats show that Brady plays very well against the blitz. But that is why stats are for people who don't actually watch the game -- those stats do not show you how well their OL picks up the pass rush, holding it back long enough for Brady to find a quick pass to go to. And we all know what happens when a blitz fails and why it is considered risky...

Brady would be good here in Baltimore. But, scoff all you'd like, he would not do the job as well as Flacco does here. He very simply is not built for that, and history has shown that time and time again. People just do not understand how important it is for a player to fit into a team's scheme and philosophy.And when I say that Brady would not be as good as Flacco is here in Baltimore, some people construe that as an insult to Brady. It isn't an insult, it is simple reality. Why do you think we passed on Peyton Manning a few years ago when he hit the free agent market, and gave all that money to Flacco instead? Sure, Manning was getting up there in age, being 34 at the time, but this is the guy people call the greatest QB of all time, and he still had years of play ahead of him. I can tell you exactly why: 1. Because Flacco is a monster and 2. We knew Manning could not survive in this system.

Now I'm not directly comparing Flacco to Manning or Brady. But not because I don't think Flacco doesn't have several glaringly obvious advantages over them, but because it is impossible to compare two people in different systems. Let's also not forget that Manning and Brady spent their careers playing with superb OLs and HOF players at the skill positions, while Flacco has played with much less support, in a division known for it's defenses.

Edited October 11, 2016 by flynismo

[BmoreBird22]

4 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

Brady didn't throw 30+ TD's until 2007 believe it or not. He was 30 years old. 

2007. That's what I meant. When he got Welker and Moss.

[BmoreBird22]

4 hours ago, kennethyamini1989 said:

he also had 3 superbowls by that time...and was averaging 3500-4k yards pre pass happy/friendly league....please do not compare Joe Flacco to Tom Brady arguably the best QB in NFL history...

Tom Brady won those three Super Bowls with the first, second, and sixth ranked defenses in terms of PPG. 

It wasn't just Brady.

He won't come close to matching the statistical dominance of Brees, Favre, or Manning, so the only thing he has to fall back on is those wins and we already know that BB can win without him.

Didn't compare the two, but Brady is overrated.

[Tank 92]

4 hours ago, kennethyamini1989 said:

 Tom Brady arguably the best QB in NFL history...

I know many in the media and people in NE would agree with this, but that is a most ridiculous statement and an insult to the great QBs that have played the game. Believe the media hype if you want, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. 

[BmoreRavens732]

2 hours ago, flynismo said:

 

Long read, so if nothing else, just read the bolded parts.

Unlike most of these people, I actually grew up watching Brady play from day one.

Back then, I used to compare him and Peyton all the time...I'd think, you know, Brady may not put up nearly as good numbers as Peyton, I think I'd still rather have Brady. Brady just doesn't make a whole lot of mistakes, and always finds ways to keep the Pats in games. Back then, I used to watch NE a lot, they were very entertaining to watch -- I could never really put my finger on why exactly, I just felt that there was something different about them. After a few years, I began to see it for what it was. Now, these guys going on about the greatness of Brady because someone dared say something good about Flacco are going to be upset, but what I realized even 10 years ago before it became common knowledge is a few things:

1. Those OL of his were out of this world, which resulted in...

2. Him having all day long to wait for guys running designed short routes to get open

3. The rare occasions that a defense was able to overcome such a stout and well coached OL and the quick short passes to generate a good pass rush, Brady looked like absolute dog crap. But his running game and defense would still bail him out more often than not.

4. Most important of all, for the life of me, I could never understand how mediocre players like Deion Branch and David Boston ALWAYS SEEMED OPEN. I mean at first, this was part of the Brady magic to me...here he is, successful despite not having Harrison and Wayne like Manning did. But after I started noticing that no matter who Brady was throwing to, that guy always seemed to not have a defender near him, (unless it was a quick pass over the middle, which was a play they used a lot back then, especially against us), I began realizing that there is much more to what I am watching than just "Wow Brady is good".

Fast forward to 2007. I had a virtual stroke when my favorite player, the legendary Randy Moss, was sent to NE. I immediately traded for Brady and Randy in my FF leagues, despite the fact that allegedly Randy was washed up at that point. My years of watching NE play meant that I KNEW that either Brady or Moss were going to set some kind of record. How anyone could not forsee what was to come is beyond me. You put RANDY MOSS on a team that makes Branch and Boston look like solid players, and has an OL that will give Moss plenty of time to get downfield, along with a quarterback who is smart and accurate? How the hell am I seemingly the only person who sees what is about to go down??

The rest, as they say, is history. 

Here's an honest, unbiased opinion of a guy who has seen Brady grow up in this league and become what he is today.

Let me get the big one out of the way first. He owes most of his success to BB's brilliance. I cannot emphasize that enough. BB, those OL, their defenses and Vinateri carried Brady in his early years. From 2007 to today, it has been BB, those OL and some extraordinary talent on the offensive side of the ball that has allowed Brady to shine.

Now this is the point where people start to feel like what I am saying is "Brady bashing". No, it's common knowledge. It isn't some revolutionary idea that I came up with. I just happened to observe this developing in real time. For many years now, people like myself have said that "Brady is a product of the system". Eventually, with the internet becoming more and more ubiquitous each year (remember, even just ten years ago, many people did not have or want internet access), this observation began spreading like wildfire, and everyone and their grandmother started parroting it -- to the point where the phrase lost it's meaning and impact.

And besides, this is NOT bashing Brady. Fact is, he has assets that would ensure his success ANYWHERE he went. He is accurate with the ball, he has a high football IQ, a fast release, and most importantly of all, he is one of the hardest working and motivated players in the league. Tom Brady would be a good QB no matter whose jersey he had worn. But New England is the team that made him great.

For all those positive qualities I just mentioned, fact is, Brady has some severe limitations as well. His arm strength is adequate for his dink and dunk offenses, or for throwing hail maries to Randy Moss, but it is not enough to allow him to throw his way out of trouble. You ever wonder why he throws the ball away a lot, particularly in the red zone? Yes, often it is because it is the right thing to do. And often, it is because he does not have the physical ability to consistently throw balls into coverage. Anyone who has played football at any level can tell you this: you can beat good single coverage with a spot on throw. Any QB can do that; Brady is accurate enough that he can do it consistently, to his credit. To beat double coverage? Either you need a size mismatch, or you need an absolutely on point throw and a missile for an arm. That Brady does not have. Don't believe me? Pay very close attention next time you see Brady in the red zone, where this will be at it's most obvious. Not near the goal line, where his dumpoffs get him easy TDs, but from 10 - 20 yards out. If Gronk isn't in single coverage, he will rarely try to hit a WR while in the end zone unless there is a big hole to throw into, he'll throw the pass short and hope to get some YAC.

Brady also has zero mobility, nor is he particularly good throwing it on the run. Stats show that Brady plays very well against the blitz. But that is why stats are for people who don't actually watch the game -- those stats do not show you how well their OL picks up the pass rush, holding it back long enough for Brady to find a quick pass to go to. And we all know what happens when a blitz fails and why it is considered risky...

Brady would be good here in Baltimore. But, scoff all you'd like, he would not do the job as well as Flacco does here. He very simply is not built for that, and history has shown that time and time again. People just do not understand how important it is for a player to fit into a team's scheme and philosophy.And when I say that Brady would not be as good as Flacco is here in Baltimore, some people construe that as an insult to Brady. It isn't an insult, it is simple reality. Why do you think we passed on Peyton Manning a few years ago when he hit the free agent market, and gave all that money to Flacco instead? Sure, Manning was getting up there in age, being 34 at the time, but this is the guy people call the greatest QB of all time, and he still had years of play ahead of him. I can tell you exactly why: 1. Because Flacco is a monster and 2. We knew Manning could not survive in this system.

Now I'm not directly comparing Flacco to Manning or Brady. But not because I don't think Flacco doesn't have several glaringly obvious advantages over them, but because it is impossible to compare two people in different systems. Let's also not forget that Manning and Brady spent their careers playing with superb OLs and HOF players at the skill positions, while Flacco has played with much less support, in a division known for it's defenses.

Great read. I agree with everything except brady would succeed anywhere he played. Brady's an intelligent player, but you have to think how much BB has to do with that and what he's taught him. As much as I hate the whole organization, BB included, I have to acknowledge he's probably the greatest coach of all time, with a scratchy legacy if you know what I mean. But he's still one of, if not the smartest coaches and I'm sure that's rubbed off on brady a great deal. To me brady is purely an immobile straight up pocket passer with great accuracy and football smarts but lacks a strong arm and many physical traits it would take to succeed here in the north. Defenses are built to get after you here, and without the quick underneath dink and dunk routes with the kind of oline you mentioned brady would get crushed here in Baltimore with the system that's been instilled here at least since the flacco era. I also feel the same about the great Peyton Manning. My favorite QB of all time with favre, in no order being next to him, I have to believe Peyton would not succeed as well. Now favre? Oh yeah! A lot more mobile then both brady and Manning and has the arm and talents to survive in the north. I know this has nothing to do with him but I did mention him and miss watching him play and being the legend he is, I couldn't help myself lol. Sorry for the rambling, but that's how I feel and that's just my opinion, respectfully of course. Brady to me is nothing more then a product of a genius system. The only time anyone ever has any success of stopping that system is you have to be ridiculously talented at defense with great coaching, ala Denver last season. Or have the brains on defense like we did with ray and reed back in 2012 in the afccg. 

[flynismo]

28 minutes ago, BmoreRavens732 said:

Great read. I agree with everything except brady would succeed anywhere he played. Brady's an intelligent player, but you have to think how much BB has to do with that and what he's taught him. As much as I hate the whole organization, BB included, I have to acknowledge he's probably the greatest coach of all time, with a scratchy legacy if you know what I mean. But he's still one of, if not the smartest coaches and I'm sure that's rubbed off on brady a great deal. To me brady is purely an immobile straight up pocket passer with great accuracy and football smarts but lacks a strong arm and many physical traits it would take to succeed here in the north. Defenses are built to get after you here, and without the quick underneath dink and dunk routes with the kind of oline you mentioned brady would get crushed here in Baltimore with the system that's been instilled here at least since the flacco era. I also feel the same about the great Peyton Manning. My favorite QB of all time with favre, in no order being next to him, I have to believe Peyton would not succeed as well. Now favre? Oh yeah! A lot more mobile then both brady and Manning and has the arm and talents to survive in the north. I know this has nothing to do with him but I did mention him and miss watching him play and being the legend he is, I couldn't help myself lol. Sorry for the rambling, but that's how I feel and that's just my opinion, respectfully of course. Brady to me is nothing more then a product of a genius system. The only time anyone ever has any success of stopping that system is you have to be ridiculously talented at defense with great coaching, ala Denver last season. Or have the brains on defense like we did with ray and reed back in 2012 in the afccg. 

Very interesting that you mention Favre, because I considered pulling him into the conversation as well.

Favre, for all his faults, is a true all time great. He could have, and did, thrive in all types of differing systems throughout his career. He would play well here in this system, he would play well over in NE, there simply is not anything he could not do, and do it well. I won't be so audacious as to say Favre would be playing on a HOF level on this current team in Bmore, because clearly that is not possible. But, this is a guy who had Flacco's arm, Rodger's ability to throw on the run, great vision, a quick release, a grit and toughness that is unmatched by anyone at any position to ever play the game. Favre is a true legend. Putting Brady on a level with Favre is disrespectful to Favre...Brady is not worthy of deflating Favre's balls (take that to mean what you will). And I have always smiled inside when I read people talking about how Flacco is cut from the same cloth as Favre. What an honor and show of respect to Joe. And there is much truth behind that comparison. Flacco has all of those same qualities that Favre put on display...everything from the gunslinger mentality to the toughness and grit.

It's a shame that Flacco never got to play in a Sean Payton or BB environment. The world would then see what this guy is truly capable of.

Edited October 11, 2016 by flynismo

[Tank 92]

3 hours ago, flynismo said:

 

Long read, so if nothing else, just read the bolded parts.

Unlike most of these people, I actually grew up watching Brady play from day one.

 

Good read, I watched like you and feel the same. People always scoff and say "you're just saying that because NE is a big rival of the Ravens", etc..  No, we say it because if you look past the highlight reels and stop listening to the media hype, it is the truth.

I'm holding on to this as it will help me keep my self invoked silence on the matter.  Thanks.   lol

[kpfeiffe]

http://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/overrated-nfl-players.html/?a=viewall

Yes, Flacco does have a Super Bowl ring. So do guys like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Doug Williams. In actuality, outside of his run of fantastic play throughout the 2012-13 postseason (which resulted in him landing a massive contract extension, by the way), Flacco has been incredibly average throughout his eight-year NFL career.

He still doesn’t have a 30-touchdown pass season on his resume, and it’s becoming more and more clear that the success Flacco enjoyed early in his career was a direct result of him having an excellent supporting cast around him (the same can be said for coach Harbaugh). He is now the highest-paid signal caller in the league in terms of average annual salary, and in our eyes, paying a guy who graded out as the 24th-best quarterback in the league that kind of money will continue to prevent the Ravens from truly rebuilding a Super Bowl-caliber team anytime soon.

 

 

[VermontRaven]

15 minutes ago, kpfeiffe said:

He still doesn’t have a 30-touchdown pass season on his resume, and it’s becoming more and more clear that the success Flacco enjoyed early in his career was a direct result of him having an excellent supporting cast around him (the same can be said for coach Harbaugh).

What about the "Mile high miracle" to Jacoby Jones.  Last time I checked, that was a bit over 30 yards.

[berad]

21 minutes ago, kpfeiffe said:

http://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/overrated-nfl-players.html/?a=viewall

Yes, Flacco does have a Super Bowl ring. So do guys like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Doug Williams. In actuality, outside of his run of fantastic play throughout the 2012-13 postseason (which resulted in him landing a massive contract extension, by the way), Flacco has been incredibly average throughout his eight-year NFL career.

He still doesn’t have a 30-touchdown pass season on his resume, and it’s becoming more and more clear that the success Flacco enjoyed early in his career was a direct result of him having an excellent supporting cast around him (the same can be said for coach Harbaugh). He is now the highest-paid signal caller in the league in terms of average annual salary, and in our eyes, paying a guy who graded out as the 24th-best quarterback in the league that kind of money will continue to prevent the Ravens from truly rebuilding a Super Bowl-caliber team anytime soon.

When quoting outside sources, please include some of your own thoughts. Don't want to tread into murky copyright issues with "Jimmie Kaylor" or this "cheatsheet" website.

[BmoreRavens732]

2 hours ago, flynismo said:

Very interesting that you mention Favre, because I considered pulling him into the conversation as well.

Favre, for all his faults, is a true all time great. He could have, and did, thrive in all types of differing systems throughout his career. He would play well here in this system, he would play well over in NE, there simply is not anything he could not do, and do it well. I won't be so audacious as to say Favre would be playing on a HOF level on this current team in Bmore, because clearly that is not possible. But, this is a guy who had Flacco's arm, Rodger's ability to throw on the run, great vision, a quick release, a grit and toughness that is unmatched by anyone at any position to ever play the game. Favre is a true legend. Putting Brady on a level with Favre is disrespectful to Favre...Brady is not worthy of deflating Favre's balls (take that to mean what you will). And I have always smiled inside when I read people talking about how Flacco is cut from the same cloth as Favre. What an honor and show of respect to Joe. And there is much truth behind that comparison. Flacco has all of those same qualities that Favre put on display...everything from the gunslinger mentality to the toughness and grit.

It's a shame that Flacco never got to play in a Sean Payton or BB environment. The world would then see what this guy is truly capable of.

+1000 to you sir

[flynismo]

1 hour ago, kpfeiffe said:

He still doesn’t have a 30-touchdown pass season on his resume

People also used that same stupid argument to show how bad Elway and Aikman sucked. LMAO! That's what happen's when you're too worried about stat sheets and don't pay attention to what happens on the field.

At least we know you're one of "those" fans now. GL with that...

 

*edit*

Just so the mods don't think I'm being snippy without cause...

What does "30 TDs" matter? A bit arbitrary, is it not? I mean, why not 27 TDs? Why not 33? Why is 30 the magic number? Answer that question honestly, then you'll see how silly that argument is.

Edited October 11, 2016 by flynismo

[kpfeiffe]

1 hour ago, berad said:

When quoting outside sources, please include some of your own thoughts. Don't want to tread into murky copyright issues with "Jimmie Kaylor" or this "cheatsheet" website.

Fair enough - apologies. 

[callahan09]

2 hours ago, kpfeiffe said:

Yes, Flacco does have a Super Bowl ring. So do guys like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Doug Williams

The difference is, Flacco had to do an awful lot to get his.  Those other guys were more along for the ride as a great team & defense took care of business to pave the way.

Flacco had to overcome a defense that gave up 22 points per game in the playoffs, those other 3 guys' teams gave up just 5.8, 12.3, and 12.3 points per game respectivley.  During the Super Bowl, Flacco had to overcome a defense that allowed 31 points.  No Super Bowl winning team has EVER given up more points that that in the Super Bowl.

Flacco had a +11 TD/INT differential, those other guys were +2, +2, and +5 respectively.  Flacco threw for 285 yards per game.  Those 3 other guys combined for an average of less than 193 yards per game.

It's completely irrelevant to mention them when talking about Flacco.  Because the implication is that those are guys who it's irrelevant that they are Super Bowl Winning QBs, presumably because they had little to do with their own victories, being on great teams with great defenses and being asked to do very little.  Flacco on the other hand was absolutely required to be *PERFECT* in those playoffs.  If he hadn't been perfect, thrown for 285 yards per game, had ZERO interceptions and 11 TDs, then there's a very high chance they don't win the Super Bowl.  He was on a team that gave up the most points in a post-season Super Bowl winning run, including in the Super Bowl game itself, ever.  He had to do a LOT of it with his own arm and had to overcome a lot to do it, and he had to do it to the tune of perfection or we would not have won.

It's the kind of performance that's really awe-inspiring, it just doesn't happen in the NFL except once every couple of generations.  The only other example I can think of is Joe Montana in 1989, but even that performance wasn't under as much pressure to perform as Flacco was, because his defense only gave up 26 points over the course of the entire post-season.

[Hot rum]

I get tired of people talking about our quarterback being elite this is a safe area it's just us here let's be real ... elite?

(Spoiler alert go ahead start hating me now )..Flacco it's just average to be honest this year he seems more concerned with keeping his stats up then looking for the open man downfield and I don't give a darn who your best friend is on the team, you better be throwing the ball to the open guy .First down ..first down that's the most important thing  keep driving the ball down the field. Also what happened to the pump fake is it just me or is Flacco scripting the defense on where he is throwing the ball. Look this guy and his salary put us in a terrible space it took us several years to surround him with the caliber of player that we have. Okay Joe remember,we let go of the supposed problem now if this offense doesn't start flying they're going to start looking at you I hate defending Joe to the other football fans the only thing I can say he got a great arm,has a Super Bowl ring,and he was damn near perfect  during the Super Bowl playoff run other than that I have no more. 

Edited October 12, 2016 by Hot rum

[flynismo]

6 hours ago, Hot rum said:

I hate defending Joe to the other football fans the only thing I can say he got a great arm,has a Super Bowl ring,and he was damn near perfect  during the Super Bowl playoff run other than that I have no more. 

If that's all you really got, do us all a favor and stop defending him to other people, and start paying attention to what goes on the field. When you start doing that, you'll come to the same conclusion that anyone with a modicum of common sense and a basic level of understanding of football -- in or out of Baltimore -- comes to: Flacco is a steal at $120M.

Edited October 12, 2016 by flynismo

[Sami84]

20 hours ago, callahan09 said:

The difference is, Flacco had to do an awful lot to get his.  Those other guys were more along for the ride as a great team & defense took care of business to pave the way.

Flacco had to overcome a defense that gave up 22 points per game in the playoffs, those other 3 guys' teams gave up just 5.8, 12.3, and 12.3 points per game respectivley.  During the Super Bowl, Flacco had to overcome a defense that allowed 31 points.  No Super Bowl winning team has EVER given up more points that that in the Super Bowl.

Flacco had a +11 TD/INT differential, those other guys were +2, +2, and +5 respectively.  Flacco threw for 285 yards per game.  Those 3 other guys combined for an average of less than 193 yards per game.

It's completely irrelevant to mention them when talking about Flacco.  Because the implication is that those are guys who it's irrelevant that they are Super Bowl Winning QBs, presumably because they had little to do with their own victories, being on great teams with great defenses and being asked to do very little.  Flacco on the other hand was absolutely required to be *PERFECT* in those playoffs.  If he hadn't been perfect, thrown for 285 yards per game, had ZERO interceptions and 11 TDs, then there's a very high chance they don't win the Super Bowl.  He was on a team that gave up the most points in a post-season Super Bowl winning run, including in the Super Bowl game itself, ever.  He had to do a LOT of it with his own arm and had to overcome a lot to do it, and he had to do it to the tune of perfection or we would not have won.

It's the kind of performance that's really awe-inspiring, it just doesn't happen in the NFL except once every couple of generations.  The only other example I can think of is Joe Montana in 1989, but even that performance wasn't under as much pressure to perform as Flacco was, because his defense only gave up 26 points over the course of the entire post-season.

3

so i guess people are going to refer to his magic run in 2012 post season forever? so basically by the time he contract is done with we'll likely have had 8 seasons and no playoffs. I'd like to point out we needed kansas to do us a favor in 2014. could so easily have been 4 straight years.

btw we aint making the playoffs again this year.

so that will be 4 out of 5

but in 2019 when it's 6 out of 7 all the flacco apologists will still refer to how he isnt the problem.

[GrimCoconut]

4 hours ago, Sami84 said:

so i guess people are going to refer to his magic run in 2012 post season forever? so basically by the time he contract is done with we'll likely have had 8 seasons and no playoffs. I'd like to point out we needed kansas to do us a favor in 2014. could so easily have been 4 straight years.

btw we aint making the playoffs again this year.

so that will be 4 out of 5

but in 2019 when it's 6 out of 7 all the flacco apologists will still refer to how he isnt the problem.

Glad to hear it's already been decided we won't make the playoffs after week 5. Guess I'll stop watching 

[Hot rum]

4 hours ago, flynismo said:

If that's all you really got, do us all a favor and stop defending him to other people, and start paying attention to what goes on the field. When you start doing that, you'll come to the same conclusion that anyone with a modicum of common sense and a basic level of understanding of football -- in or out of Baltimore -- comes to: Flacco is a steal at $120M.

    So first your statement about doing you a favor... well you missed it. 120 million at that time the highest paid quarterback ever. I thought this forum was called tracking Joe's progress,not worship the ground he walks on. Listen when you want to have a real conversation and not some delusional "Joe Flacco is a steal  at 120 million" I'll talk to you. Come back down to earth Joe is decent. By no stretch of the imagination should he ever be making more money than Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or... the list goes on, get real dude.

[PurpleCity5]

On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 1:59 AM, Tru11 said:

this is true.

big ben had some outliers before age 30 but at 31 is when he took his game to the level he is playing now.

flacco is 31 right now though and he is running out of time in elevating his game TBH.

cant think of any players who improved greatly at age 32.
especially when he will have to learn a new scheme yet again with a new OC.

Carson Palmer is a name I would throw out there. He played at an elite level last year. He was one of the five best QBs. The first half of his career wasn't all that great and he went through the Raiders before arriving at Arizona. Also, how about this, Rich Gannon is another guy I would throw out there as well, a guy who revived his career. Trent Green is another guy too.

You will probably laugh at me for this but I would throw out Steve Beurelein too. He was pretty bad his first 12 years in the league but out of no where threw 36 TD passes.

It's just a couple of example. QB is one of those positions where guys get better at as they get older. You don't need athleticism, most important component is IQ. Of course the arm drop off is significant but outside of that, if you live as a pocket passer you can throw until your arm falls off.

[berad]

6 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

Glad to hear it's already been decided we won't make the playoffs after week 5. Guess I'll stop watching 

We're not making it for the next 3 years, either. Hey, which stocks should we invest in?

2 minutes ago, Hot rum said:

    So first your statement about doing you a favor... well you missed it. 120 million at that time the highest paid quarterback ever. I thought this forum was called tracking Joe's progress,not worship the ground he walks on. Listen when you want to have a real conversation and not some delusional "Joe Flacco is a steal  at 120 million" I'll talk to you. Come back down to earth Joe is decent. By no stretch of the imagination should he ever be making more money than Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or... the list goes on, get real dude.

"At the time the highest paid ever"... since that time? Point to guys like Ryan, Dalton, Tannehill, Kaepernick, Cutler, etc and that's proof positive of Flacco being worth it. That's market value, that's what you pay. At least our QB (and, more importantly, team) has something to show for it and something to build upon.

[Hot rum]

2 minutes ago, berad said:

We're not making it for the next 3 years, either. Hey, which stocks should we invest in?

"At the time the highest paid ever"... since that time? Point to guys like Ryan, Dalton, Tannehill, Kaepernick, Cutler, etc and that's proof positive of Flacco being worth it. That's market value, that's what you pay. At least our QB (and, more importantly, team) has something to show for it and something to build upon.

I just want to clarify I was speaking towards elite I feel like he's a better quarterback then the people you named above but.. Elite?. So try this name two elite quarterbacks and then put Joes  name next to them I'll do it first Brady, Montana. I put Joe's name next to Brady, Montana... it doesn't belong there yet.

[Sami84]

44 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

Glad to hear it's already been decided we won't make the playoffs after week 5. Guess I'll stop watching 

unless a sweep of giants and jets then no..not a chance.. 

And looking at the injuries we have piled up ( which has become a harbaugh regime speciality) i wouldnt be so confident.

[berad]

12 minutes ago, Hot rum said:

I just want to clarify I was speaking towards elite I feel like he's a better quarterback then the people you named above but.. Elite?. So try this name two elite quarterbacks and then put Joes  name next to them I'll do it first Brady, Montana. I put Joe's name next to Brady, Montana... it doesn't belong there yet.

Now that's a different argument. You don't have to be subjectively 'elite' to get paid huge money.

The name belongs there in terms of this video and some NFL records but, yes, Joe Flacco is not a legendary NFL QB like those two

 

[rmcjacket23]

50 minutes ago, Hot rum said:

    So first your statement about doing you a favor... well you missed it. 120 million at that time the highest paid quarterback ever. I thought this forum was called tracking Joe's progress,not worship the ground he walks on. Listen when you want to have a real conversation and not some delusional "Joe Flacco is a steal  at 120 million" I'll talk to you. Come back down to earth Joe is decent. By no stretch of the imagination should he ever be making more money than Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or... the list goes on, get real dude.

Things like "highest paid" have very little to do with whether you are the best player at your position or not. It has everything to do with timing. A comparable player who signed a contract four years ago, logically, shouldn't be making as much as somebody who signed 4 months ago. Why? Because the cost and value of that player has likely risen in the last 4 years, as has the salary cap. That's why seemingly every single year the "highest paid" player at a position changes. Its not because the best player at the position changes... its because the cost of the position increased.

In fact, I would say that the highest paid player at each individual position in the NFL probably isn't the best player at that position in the NFL. Most people would say Antonio Brown is the best WR in the league... so why isn't he the highest paid? Plenty of examples just like this.

Same thing applies in the real world. There are very few positions or industries I can think of on this planet where the absolute best at their profession is the highest paid. 

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[rmcjacket23]

On 10/11/2016 at 10:19 AM, kpfeiffe said:

http://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/overrated-nfl-players.html/?a=viewall

Yes, Flacco does have a Super Bowl ring. So do guys like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Doug Williams. In actuality, outside of his run of fantastic play throughout the 2012-13 postseason (which resulted in him landing a massive contract extension, by the way), Flacco has been incredibly average throughout his eight-year NFL career.

He still doesn’t have a 30-touchdown pass season on his resume, and it’s becoming more and more clear that the success Flacco enjoyed early in his career was a direct result of him having an excellent supporting cast around him (the same can be said for coach Harbaugh). He is now the highest-paid signal caller in the league in terms of average annual salary, and in our eyes, paying a guy who graded out as the 24th-best quarterback in the league that kind of money will continue to prevent the Ravens from truly rebuilding a Super Bowl-caliber team anytime soon.

 

 

1. Obviously this article doesn't even attempt to account for the contributions those players made during the SB run (or lack thereof). Quite a bit of a difference in what those QBs did in the playoffs vs what Joe did, but lets not let a little thing like context get in the way of a bad narrative.

2. Since the writing of that article, Joe has been passed by 3 people on the AAV list (Brees, Palmer, and Luck). 

3. Ignoring the obvious flaws in writers caring about AAV (which means nothing, since most of those players won't see anywhere close to all of that money), the writer should probably focus on actually relevant metrics, like Guaranteed money, since most contracts are written in pencil these days, and a $120M contract can become a $50-60M contract very quickly.

In terms of guaranteed money, Joe ranks 12th in total dollar amount (behind guys like Tannehill, Alex Smith, Cutler, Romo, and Kaepernick) and far less than guys he's at least on par with, such as Rivers and Eli.

So might want to keep things in perspective. Its not exactly wise to be looking at the big, "sexy" contract numbers that are put out there, because players rarely get anywhere close to those amounts in full. Joe got half of his first $120M deal before he ripped that one up and started a new one. 

4. As I've said many times before, we already know that the FLOOR for an "average" NFL QB is $18M a year in AAV. That's the minimum you can spend to get a guy like Flacco, regardless of whether you think he's great or average. There's no rational reason to expect an amount less than that.

So these clowns that complain about contract value are literally whining over $4M a year, 2.5% of the teams salary cap. I'm not sure if most people realize this, but that extra $4M a year, even if Joe was paid exactly as an average QB, won't really help you win more games necessarily. Its $4M. There aren't any studs signing for that price. Basically, it will get you another Mike Wallace. 

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[Ravenseconbeast]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. Obviously this article doesn't even attempt to account for the contributions those players made during the SB run (or lack thereof). Quite a bit of a difference in what those QBs did in the playoffs vs what Joe did, but lets not let a little thing like context get in the way of a bad narrative.

2. Since the writing of that article, Joe has been passed by 3 people on the AAV list (Brees, Palmer, and Luck). 

3. Ignoring the obvious flaws in writers caring about AAV (which means nothing, since most of those players won't see anywhere close to all of that money), the writer should probably focus on actually relevant metrics, like Guaranteed money, since most contracts are written in pencil these days, and a $120M contract can become a $50-60M contract very quickly.

In terms of guaranteed money, Joe ranks 12th in total dollar amount (behind guys like Tannehill, Alex Smith, Cutler, Romo, and Kaepernick) and far less than guys he's at least on par with, such as Rivers and Eli.

So might want to keep things in perspective. Its not exactly wise to be looking at the big, "sexy" contract numbers that are put out there, because players rarely get anywhere close to those amounts in full. Joe got half of his first $120M deal before he ripped that one up and started a new one. 

4. As I've said many times before, we already know that the FLOOR for an "average" NFL QB is $18M a year in AAV. That's the minimum you can spend to get a guy like Flacco, regardless of whether you think he's great or average. There's no rational reason to expect an amount less than that.

So these clowns that complain about contract value are literally whining over $4M a year, 2.5% of the teams salary cap. I'm not sure if most people realize this, but that extra $4M a year, even if Joe was paid exactly as an average QB, won't really help you win more games necessarily. Its $4M. There aren't any studs signing for that price. Basically, it will get you another Mike Wallace. 

 

"Floor" for average QB for 18m for whose standards?  Are you strictly looking at our options only from Free Agency?   

We can draft a QB.  How about that? 

Dak Prescott, Derek Carr gets how much on their rookie contract? Tell me.   If that is the case.   It won't be '$4mill' to build the offense.   

People can twist the story here and there.  

Bottom line: if you get paid elite money,  you need to carry your weight.   Don't expect our offense to look any better carrying Flacco contract from here on out.