Will Any Ravens Take a Knee in Protest

[rmcjacket23]

18 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Yea but his salary is performance based. He actually controls the amount of that he receives. Football has become a commodity, and performance has a quantifiable dollar amount given to it. There was an expectation of earnings when he entered the profession based on performance. He met those performance goals, and has earned the expected income. At least the money received here is in direct relation to the fan experience he creates. His positive play creates a positive fan experience.

His jersey is created by Nike. He's not involved at all. His likeness is, but the value of his likeness is dependent upon public perception. His perception received a boost based on something he deemed a selfless act in the name of equality. To profit off of that would be in direct contradiction of that sentiment.

Donating profits to a cause that you would have never gained without aligning yourself with that cause doesnt gain you any good will in my eyes.

Giving a donation to a "Charitable Fund" for the medical costs of a cancer patient that happens to be me, does not make me a supporter of cancer research or an activist if i wouldnt have donated said money to someone elses fund.

 

Not a direct correlation there. And youre right in that i dont know if he donated anything prior to this whole thing. But i do know he wasnt donating 100% of his jersey sales prior to this event. So im not going to praise him for doing so now, since he's only become #1 in jersey sales bc of kneeling... He's donating the money of people who bought his jersey bc they back him for supporting the cause they believe in, likely bc they were somehow effected by police brutality or an unfair judicial system...

Its like the Church taking in a collection during service, donating it to some charity and giving the Church itself or the leader all the credit instead of the parishioners or followers..

1. Yes and no on the performance piece. The overall pool of money available to spend on players is 100% based on the revenue the sport generates, i.e. consumer spending. If the NFL saw a sharp decline in viewership and revenue, there would be a sharp decline in overall payroll. As such, Kaepernick would be worth less, and thus he would be compensated less. That has very little to do with how he actually performs on the field, as there are factors that dictate how much the NFL makes in revenue that have very little to do with on-field performance. 

2. In general, people that donate to charities only donate because they have some sort of personal relation to it. That's true of most of the people on this planet, not just Kaepernick or anybody else. I'm not donating my money to just some random cause that I have nothing to do with, because I don't care about it.

3. I wouldn't have expected him to donate jersey sales, because he probably wasn't making much in jersey sales. He was largely irrelevant before this, and his jersey sales skyrocketed based on a simple action like this. If he donated his jersey sales before this, most people would have considered that to be a joke, because it would have been peanuts most likely.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

33 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. The people that need his help are quite literally thousands if not millions of people, so he's not going to be able to individually reach them all.

2. Perhaps he will get out there and show himself, though that's easier for Ray Lewis, since he's not really employed right now. Kaepernick has a full time responsibility of being a football player for at least half a year. 

3. If he did all of that privately, he would be making a difference. However, if he does all of that AND bring awareness to the issue via public protest, he will get others to do those things as well. He won't be the first or last guy to donate time and money to causes that help these issues, and his actions are a direct reason why others will do it.

4. While Ray Lewis spends a great deal of time personally meeting with people he wishes to help, lets not pretend like he does this privately. He's very big on making sure that his message is carried publicly, via several different avenues. Why? Because you reach more people that way.

1. Do you have figures on how many african americans are effected by police brutality and can confirm its in the thousands if not millions?

2. Can confirm... several players on our team currently very active in the community while employed by NFL. They find the time. Theres this 9 month off season,

3. With everyone criticizing him, i would imagine (just like youre speaking hypothetically) that with the flack had he been devoting his time or finances prior to kneeling he would have come out with by now to show how down for the cause he is. Since that would generate more attention and conversation, and inspire others to do more and all.

4. I dont think anyone is saying do it privately. The public forum is the biggest tool celebrities have that the normal person doesnt. This isnt private vs public.

It's ok Kaep, you made the first step and used your public persona to generate national attention and conversation. You not only have the freedom to express yourself that way and for that cause, but i back your freedom to do so. But, now that we're all looking and talking, we're waiting for why you grabbed our attention. And so far, the follow up has been...... well ill donate some money.

So basically, youre not going to do anything above and beyond what you were doing before.... but youll donate the increase in jersey sales. WHich sure is a good thing .... but that tells me Joe Regular that I'll get involved when I suddenly get an influx of income. Everyone whose been effected by police brutality, come drop of a $100 check at my house and I'll donate a cool million too.

Oh thats not happening? Ok, well I can kneel too!

 

THATS why you needed our attention?? LETS GO TO JA RULE FOR REACTION! KANYE, PLEASE TELL US HOW TO FEEL! President Bush hates.... nevermind. Sarcasm, but thats how this feels. Going to Ja Rule and Kanye to tell me how to feel about 9/11.

[rmcjacket23]

5 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

1. Do you have figures on how many african americans are effected by police brutality and can confirm its in the thousands if not millions?

2. Can confirm... several players on our team currently very active in the community while employed by NFL. They find the time. Theres this 9 month off season,

3. With everyone criticizing him, i would imagine (just like youre speaking hypothetically) that with the flack had he been devoting his time or finances prior to kneeling he would have come out with by now to show how down for the cause he is. Since that would generate more attention and conversation, and inspire others to do more and all.

4. I dont think anyone is saying do it privately. The public forum is the biggest tool celebrities have that the normal person doesnt. This isnt private vs public.

It's ok Kaep, you made the first step and used your public persona to generate national attention and conversation. Now that we're all looking and talking, we're waiting for why you grabbed our attention. And so far, the follow up has been...... well ill donate some money.

 

THATS why you needed our attention?? LETS GO TO JA RULE FOR REACTION! KANYE, PLEASE TELL US HOW TO FEEL! President Bush hates.... nevermind. Sarcasm, but thats how this feels. Going to Ja Rule and Kanye to tell me how to feel about 9/11.

1. Effected? Frankly, that can be anybody, white or black. Its not specifically reserved for somebody who's been beaten by the police. I can be effected by numerous things in life without ever actually experiencing them. That's not a requirement. Fear alone is an effect of this problem.

2. Yup, so does Kaepernick. That's well documented at this point.

 

[PurpleCorsair]

11 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

1. Do you have figures on how many african americans are effected by police brutality and can confirm its in the thousands if not millions?

THATS why you needed our attention?? LETS GO TO JA RULE FOR REACTION! KANYE, PLEASE TELL US HOW TO FEEL! President Bush hates.... nevermind. Sarcasm, but thats how this feels. Going to Ja Rule and Kanye to tell me how to feel about 9/11.

Ferguson report from a few years ago.

https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf

 

Baltimore report released almost exactly 1 month ago.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/file/883366/download

 

[Purple_City39]

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

No, its usually juries acquitting the cops.

This is false.  More often than not, those cops never make it to trial because they are never indicted in the pre-trial.

Fun fact, when in court to decide whether someone will even see prosecution, there is no defense attorney present.  I can find the link if necessary, but prosecutor that went on a rant online, pointing out how any prosecutor wants someone to be indicted, it'll happen.  And if they want someone to avoid trial completely, they turn into defense attorneys.

Most of the cops that kill someone don't even see trial unless it's a ridiculously slam dunk case but yet the United States as a whole pays out over a billion dollars a year in police brutality/misconduct cases.  Not sure how many people live in Baltimore, but the Freddie Gray case is a prime example of the problem.  Baltimore city can recognize a problem and pay out millions to the family in restitution, the case can be ruled a homicide, and yet NOBODY is found guilty.  This problem is highlighted with minorities but it's a problem for whites also.  

[The Mom Gene]

34 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. The people that need his help are quite literally thousands if not millions of people, so he's not going to be able to individually reach them all.

2. Perhaps he will get out there and show himself, though that's easier for Ray Lewis, since he's not really employed right now. Kaepernick has a full time responsibility of being a football player for at least half a year. 

3. If he did all of that privately, he would be making a difference. However, if he does all of that AND bring awareness to the issue via public protest, he will get others to do those things as well. He won't be the first or last guy to donate time and money to causes that help these issues, and his actions are a direct reason why others will do it.

4. While Ray Lewis spends a great deal of time personally meeting with people he wishes to help, lets not pretend like he does this privately. He's very big on making sure that his message is carried publicly, via several different avenues. Why? Because you reach more people that way.

1.  We know there are literally thousands or millions of people..  Sitting helps how many???  and why I said $1M is nothing.

2.  Ray's been doing it since 1996. He been on the streets since the beginning giving back.  He hasn't just started since his career ended.  He was a pro-bowler while working on North and Guilford Avenues for YEARS.  Actually has streets up there named after him.

3.  There's saying...  and There's doing...  Walk the walk.  That's what people have a hard time with.  The sitting/kneeling does nothing. Does it bring attention???  yeah, to him, not the problem.  That's my opinion.

4.  Ray did most of his work in private, hence those not aware that he started just after he was drafted.  He worked and gave back to many neighborhoods here in FL too.  He did it both ways...  He did it with the hopes that more players would follow his lead. 

All these guys have done is bring attention to themselves...  And it's not about them.  AGAIN, IT'S JMO

[Purple_City39]

23 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

1. Do you have figures on how many african americans are effected by police brutality and can confirm its in the thousands if not millions?

2. Can confirm... several players on our team currently very active in the community while employed by NFL. They find the time. Theres this 9 month off season,

3. With everyone criticizing him, i would imagine (just like youre speaking hypothetically) that with the flack had he been devoting his time or finances prior to kneeling he would have come out with by now to show how down for the cause he is. Since that would generate more attention and conversation, and inspire others to do more and all.

4. I dont think anyone is saying do it privately. The public forum is the biggest tool celebrities have that the normal person doesnt. This isnt private vs public.

It's ok Kaep, you made the first step and used your public persona to generate national attention and conversation. You not only have the freedom to express yourself that way and for that cause, but i back your freedom to do so. But, now that we're all looking and talking, we're waiting for why you grabbed our attention. And so far, the follow up has been...... well ill donate some money.

So basically, youre not going to do anything above and beyond what you were doing before.... but youll donate the increase in jersey sales. WHich sure is a good thing .... but that tells me Joe Regular that I'll get involved when I suddenly get an influx of income. Everyone whose been effected by police brutality, come drop of a $100 check at my house and I'll donate a cool million too.

Oh thats not happening? Ok, well I can kneel too!

 

THATS why you needed our attention?? LETS GO TO JA RULE FOR REACTION! KANYE, PLEASE TELL US HOW TO FEEL! President Bush hates.... nevermind. Sarcasm, but thats how this feels. Going to Ja Rule and Kanye to tell me how to feel about 9/11.

1. I don't think that exact numbers are needed.  In addition to the links posted above, there have have been various "tests" done to show how police report to black and white people differently.  There's also studies done like this one

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/study-supports-suspicion-that-police-use-of-force-is-more-likely-for-blacks.html?_r=0

2. Yes, you can confirm that players on the team you follow do various things because there are cameras there reporting it.  Can you speak to every charity or community service time done by, let's say, Chiefs players?

3. Why is that?  He pledged to donate 1 million and many are saying he only did it because he was called out.  How would that change in this instance?  

4. He brought awareness to a situation that's being heavily discussed.  One person doesn't need to do a ton for change.  Can you tell me what else Rosa Parks did outside of sitting?  Yet her just sitting lead to a huge change, right?  Kaepernick has pledged 1M, caused the 49ers to pledge 1M, and indirectly caused the Packers players/coaches to donate 100k to Wisconsin police.  So far, Kap's silent protest has led to the betterment of various communities and police departments.

[PurpleCorsair]

If Kaepernick wasn't protesting, would you be having this conversation about police brutality, discriminatory policing, and systemic inequality? 

Initially, I too thought his kneeling/sitting wasn't enough but the mere fact that everyone is watching suggests otherwise.

Edited September 13, 2016 by PurpleCorsair

[Steve0x]

4 hours ago, 757RavensFan said:

Respect for what?

If ALL Ravens players had respect, there wouldn't have been a domestic violence incident, illegal drug use, PED use, or a mutiny with the coaches. Respect comes in many forms.  If ALL Ravens players had respect, they wouldn't have disrespected themselves, their families or their team by performing the acts I listed.   

Respect for our country,,Our Flag,,Our Soldiers who died for that flag and respect for what our nation stands for.

[757RavensFan]

4 minutes ago, PurpleCorsair said:

If Kaepernick wasn't protesting, would you be having this conversation about police brutality, discriminatory policing, and systemic inequality? 

Initially, I to thought his kneeling/sitting wasn't enough but the mere fact that everyone is watching suggests otherwise.

Ummmm I think the  #BlackLivesMatter movement was well in effect before this year's 3rd preseason game. 

How quickly you forget that the very city that the Ravens play in was burning down bc of this issue. 

Edited September 13, 2016 by 757RavensFan

[The Mom Gene]

1 minute ago, Purple_City39 said:

1. I don't think that exact numbers are needed.  In addition to the links posted above, there have have been various "tests" done to show how police report to black and white people differently.  There's also studies done like this one

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/study-supports-suspicion-that-police-use-of-force-is-more-likely-for-blacks.html?_r=0

And studies like this too.  Please understand.  There is so much more to percentages and studies.  We just need to know that work needs to be done in ALL HIGH RISK COMMUNITIES.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/09/03/study-people-more-likely-to-shoot-white

 

[The Mom Gene]

4 minutes ago, Steve0x said:

Respect for our country,,Our Flag,,Our Soldiers who died for that flag and respect for what our nation stands for.

THAT...  and why I have said all along that the protest doesn't really fit the problem.

[The Mom Gene]

It's a good conversation guys.....  Glad we are having it respectfully.

[Steve0x]

And Our fans have respect for that flag too. Nobody isn't going to stand down for that flag 

[Steve0x]

Also i think John Harbaugh might have something to do with Ravens players not sitting down. He will not have none of that. Just like this Hockey coach made players stand for the flag or you will not play 

 http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nhl/2016/09/07/john-tortorella-national-anthem-protest-colin-kaepernick/89966290/?hootPostID=f6fc4c04291c6a485ee83fa2dc0a8bda

[PurpleCorsair]

12 minutes ago, 757RavensFan said:

Ummmm I think the  #BlackLivesMatter movement was well in effect before this year's 3rd preseason game. 

How quickly you forget that the very city that the Ravens play in was burning down bc of this issue. 

I am well aware of the Black lives matter protests, I am also aware that they quickly fade from the eye of the public.

[Steve0x]

When will a Baltimore sports reporter ask John Harbaugh whats his policy if a Ravens player sits down during the anthem? I want to know whats his response is.  

[arnie_uk]

4 hours ago, flynismo said:

Pushing the issue to the forefront is doing something about it.

But I agree with Ray, if you're going to make a stand, have a solution to offer, not just opinions.

Did the videos of the police shooting unarmed men not push it to the forefront enough or why do you think a mediocre qb will do that more?

Everyone in the world knows about these incidents in America. Everyone. This doesn't give it a new audience or do anything in solving it, imo

[757RavensFan]

4 minutes ago, PurpleCorsair said:

I am well aware of the Black lives matter protests, I am also aware that they quickly fade from the eye of the public.

As long as there's the perception of "police brutality, discriminatory policing, and systemic inequality"  the Black Lives Matter protest aint going anywhere.  Dallas Police officers were killed behind this.  This is not a fad.  

Edited September 13, 2016 by 757RavensFan

[rmcjacket23]

18 minutes ago, Steve0x said:

Respect for our country,,Our Flag,,Our Soldiers who died for that flag and respect for what our nation stands for.

True, but respect isn't specifically just for those things. 

How about respect for women? Respect for teammates? Respect for the law?

[757RavensFan]

4 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

True, but respect isn't specifically just for those things. 

How about respect for women? Respect for teammates? Respect for the law?

That was my initial argument when it was stated that ALL Ravens have respect. 

[Steve0x]

4 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

True, but respect isn't specifically just for those things. 

How about respect for women? Respect for teammates? Respect for the law?

Mcjacket,,,Ravens players are human beings just like the rest of us. We have emotions,,,we have feelings,,,we have disagreements. How many of you people have a dispute with your wife your boss or any authority? Just like i disagree with some mods here we are all human.. But we also have respect for things.  

[rmcjacket23]

29 minutes ago, The Mom Gene said:

1.  We know there are literally thousands or millions of people..  Sitting helps how many???  and why I said $1M is nothing.

2.  Ray's been doing it since 1996. He been on the streets since the beginning giving back.  He hasn't just started since his career ended.  He was a pro-bowler while working on North and Guilford Avenues for YEARS.  Actually has streets up there named after him.

3.  There's saying...  and There's doing...  Walk the walk.  That's what people have a hard time with.  The sitting/kneeling does nothing. Does it bring attention???  yeah, to him, not the problem.  That's my opinion.

4.  Ray did most of his work in private, hence those not aware that he started just after he was drafted.  He worked and gave back to many neighborhoods here in FL too.  He did it both ways...  He did it with the hopes that more players would follow his lead. 

All these guys have done is bring attention to themselves...  And it's not about them.  AGAIN, IT'S JMO

1. Don't know how many it helps. Largely a non-quantifiable number. I don't know how many people Ray Lewis has helped either. If him sitting gets other people to pull out their checkbook or give their time to a cause of their choice, then he's already reached out to multiple people. And that's all by just taking a knee. 

2. That's not the point. Ray also wasn't out there spending all of his team during the week doing charity work when he was actually playing. He would do some charity work for a few hours on occasion during the season, as do many other players. Kaepernick does this as well. The difference is that Ray has more time NOW to do these things, because he has less responsibilities.

3. Obviously it brings attention to the problem... that's not even really debatable. The fact that he hasn't actually done the work yet is more of a public problem than his problem, because time really hasn't gone by that fast. He literally just did this like two weeks ago, and already the public has decided he doesn't do enough in the community. A bit short-sighted don't you think?

4. He did his work in private... but he made sure people knew he was doing it. That's the point. He made sure that the public knew what he was doing and why he was doing it.

[Purple_City39]

22 minutes ago, The Mom Gene said:

And studies like this too.  Please understand.  There is so much more to percentages and studies.  We just need to know that work needs to be done in ALL HIGH RISK COMMUNITIES.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/09/03/study-people-more-likely-to-shoot-white

 

I'm curious but did you read through that link?  Kap's protest, which we're discussing, is in regards to police brutality (especially of unarmed people) and oppression.  Your link talks about people shooting other armed people.  That alone is a completely separate discussion.  This topic of police targeting minorities or being quick to use deadly is not the same as an ordinary person's quickness to shoot someone. 

I've always hated that type of response since ordinary people aren't voluntarily tasked with protecting and serving everyone equally.  

 

[rmcjacket23]

Just now, Steve0x said:

Mcjacket,,,Ravens players are human beings just like the rest of us. We have emotions,,,we have feelings,,,we have disagreements. How many of you people have a dispute with your wife your boss or any authority? Just like i disagree with some mods here we are all human.. But we also have respect for things.  

Not really sure what the point of this post is to be honest. 

I have arguments with my wife on practically a daily basis... I respect her enough not to punch her out though. There's a line.

I'd have respect enough not to use illegal substances to the point where it jeopardizes my standing on a TEAM of men who are working on a common goal. That's not being respectful. 

That's the point I'm making. Human beings are SELECTIVELY respectful. They're respectful for the things they want to be respectful for. In the hierarchy of things, I personally find punching my wife much more disrespectful than kneeling for the national anthem... by a wide margin.

So when you say "Ravens are respectful", you need to make sure you understand that its not universal in all things. 

[Steve0x]

Just be glad we live in a free country.... Freedom to choose,,And Freedom to speak out on our minds.. Lets face it..In any other country in this world what Colon Kappernick did he would been executed. Especialy in those middle east countries. 

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, Steve0x said:

Just be glad we live in a free country.... Freedom to choose,,And Freedom to speak out on our minds.. Lets face it..In any other country in this world what Colon Kappernick did he would been executed. Especialy in those middle east countries. 

LOL, in every other country?

No, not even close. We aren't the only democracy in this World that allows people freedoms like these.

Gross and false generalization there.

[Steve0x]

1 minute ago, rmcjacket23 said:

LOL, in every other country?

No, not even close. We aren't the only democracy in this World that allows people freedoms like these.

Gross and false generalization there.

I challenge you go south of the border and disrespect their flag and see what happens to you.

[PurpleCorsair]

6 minutes ago, Steve0x said:

Just be glad we live in a free country.... Freedom to choose,,And Freedom to speak out on our minds.. Lets face it..In any other country in this world what Colon Kappernick did he would been executed. Especialy in those middle east countries. 

Statements like this are problematic. Not only are you suggesting that the U.S.A is the only democracy in the world (not true), but that it is the most free country in the world (also not true).

http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

http://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/2014_Human_Rights_Risk_Index_Map.pdf

In addition to that, the implication  that you're making is to say that Colin should be thankful for what he has and not protest for a cause he believes in.

[flynismo]

1 hour ago, arnie_uk said:

Did the videos of the police shooting unarmed men not push it to the forefront enough or why do you think a mediocre qb will do that more?

Well, lets think that through. Were all these sports stations talking about the topic before Kaepernick? Why didn't Shannon Sharpe make his heartfelt arguments public before? Do you not think Kaepernick's jersey being the highest selling, despite being a mediocre QB, is an indication that his actions are banding together a lot of people in support of him? Or another way of looking at it -- why does Black Lives Matter bother protesting if the videos were enough?

The point of all these protests is to attempt to put pressure on people to correct what these protesters feel is an injustice, rather than letting it get swept under the rug, as it often does when it comes to racial issues in this country. That is the very definition of bringing an issue to the forefront. It isn't just about raising awareness to people who may not have known about it previously.

Edited September 13, 2016 by flynismo