Will Any Ravens Take a Knee in Protest

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

6 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

The Seahawks symbol of unity seemed more like supporting the status quo and quelling any dissent. Any message about there being something wrong is going to divide people. Mindlessly repeating how great America is and calling it number one doesn't exactly address the fact that there are widespread issues with it. Which is exactly what many people want, unity without questioning things.

and mindlessly repeating the narrative that the police are killing black people everywhere, without a solution or steps to repairing the situation is what they want to. Voice your concern without doing anything. Blow your steam, but dont invoke change.

[RaineV1]

4 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

and mindlessly repeating the narrative that the police are killing black people everywhere, without a solution or steps to repairing the situation is what they want to. Voice your concern without doing anything. Blow your steam, but dont invoke change.

One, no one said police are just killing them everywhere.

Two, the people keeping the bad cops that give the others a bad name from being prosecuted are in elected positions. The way to fix things is to keep the media talking about them so they have a chance to be voted out of office.

Thirdly, what would you suggest then? What specific action would stop or slow down the bad cops from doing the things they do?

Edited September 13, 2016 by RaineV1

[ravensdfan]

15 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

The Seahawks symbol of unity seemed more like supporting the status quo and quelling any dissent. Any message about there being something wrong is going to divide people. Mindlessly repeating how great America is and calling it number one doesn't exactly address the fact that there are widespread issues with it. Which is exactly what many people want, unity without questioning things.

I didn't feel that way about it. Personally, I felt it was an acknowledgement that the country isn't perfect by any means, but change doesn't come from division but unity. Like everything else though, everyone will see it with their own perspective.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

26 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

One, no one said police are just killing them everywhere.

Two, the people keeping the bad cops that give the others a bad name from being prosecuted are in elected positions. The way to fix things is to keep the media talking about them so they have a chance to be voted out of office.

Thirdly, what would you suggest then? What specific action would stop or slow down the bad cops from doing the things they do?

No, its usually juries acquitting the cops.

And on your third point - id start with education. I'd educate people on what police face on a daily basis and the sometimes life or death situations theyre placed in, and how certain body language, actions, or words - while innocent in reality - may be perceived as aggressive or life threatening.

I'd educate people to have cameras and audio recorders running for any interaction with law enforcement and a plan to share that should anything happen.

I'd educate people on how to behave around law enforcement. Where even if you feel whats happening is unjust, to follow orders calmly and wait to speak with a lawyer, while documenting any inconsistencies or any rights infringed upon during the interaction.

 

Not all these incidents are racist, minority hunters. Sure, some are just bad apples. A lot are mischaracterized, and were preventable even if unfortunate. Preventable from both sides. But, if you dont trust to other side to change, then learn and change what you can on your side.

And, what little change or attention has come, has been from the documented incidents. We all know when you can see, feel, hear and touch the incident it becomes more real and inspires more outrage and change. Teach people to protect themselves.

 

Educate people on the relevant facts so that false outrage isnt created. More Caucasians are killed by police on an annual basis, even percentage wise. Maybe the relevant facts would prevent this from being a race war where things get heated and nothing gets accomplished, and can become an educated discussion on how people can change their attitudes and actions toward police to protect themselves, and police could change their policies/behavior toward suspects so they feel more at ease and less likely to run/be aggressive.

Instead of focusing on race and irrelevant facts, maybe we can focus on the real issues and develop policy that holds police more accountable for their actions - regardless of the race of the person the action was committed against. Regardless of who is most frequently victimized, youd think everyone would want everyone protected. But if you make it a race thing, nothings going to get accomplished. No ones going to back policy that only protects minorities from white cops. So, if those are the only issues you choose to fight and highlight - it will ignore a massive majority of the actual problem, and therefore minimize whats actually happening.

 

Maybe we create an unbiased panel that formally investigates claims of police brutality comprised of people from all walks of life and backgrounds... including former cops, politicians, the common man, and from different races.

 

Theres a lot of direction you can go. THeres a lot that needs to be DONE. But its action. Action that will accomplish something.

Kneeling and then saying - hey heres the money, you guys who have been ineffective so far - keep doing what youre doing. I knelt, i did my part. That aint doing it. Now that the attention is on him, use the podium to demand change. To recommend things. And if recommendations arent tried then we wont play. And if we dont play, one of the largest money-making corporations will slow down.

And if you dont move, its not just me who wont play - ive got 100 prominent players behind me prepared to sit... who've already made multiple millions and are willing to risk one year of play and salary for our people.

 

Thats something people could get behind. Kneeling and donating other peoples money? Not so much.

If all you're willing to do is kneel during the national anthem, all thats going to inspire others to do is kneel during the national anthem. Sure, people notice it, but it doesnt change anything. IF you want others to sacrifice for the change, youve got to sacrifice the same thing yourself.

If you want people to say, we're not gonna pay taxes to a government that sanctions police brutality... then youve got to not pay those taxes. If you want people not to work in a system that perpetuates violence, and treats minorities unfairly, then you too Mr. Kaep have to be willing to not work in your system that does the same thing.

If you want more than a bunch of people kneeling to be the result, youve got to do more than kneel.

As Zapata once said "Better to die on my feet, than to live on my knees."

Edited September 13, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[RaineV1]

14 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

No, its usually juries acquitting the cops.

And on your third point - id start with education. I'd educate people on what police face on a daily basis and the sometimes life or death situations theyre placed in, and how certain body language, actions, or words - while innocent in reality - may be perceived as aggressive or life threatening.

I'd educate people to have cameras and audio recorders running for any interaction with law enforcement and a plan to share that should anything happen.

I'd educate people on how to behave around law enforcement. Where even if you feel whats happening is unjust, to follow orders calmly and wait to speak with a lawyer, while documenting any inconsistencies or any rights infringed upon during the interaction.

 

Not all these incidents are racist, minority hunters. Sure, some are just bad apples. A lot are mischaracterized, and were preventable even if unfortunate. Preventable from both sides. But, if you dont trust to other side to change, then learn and change what you can on your side.

And, what little change or attention has come, has been from the documented incidents. We all know when you can see, feel, hear and touch the incident it becomes more real and inspires more outrage and change. Teach people to protect themselves.

 

Educate people on the relevant facts so that false outrage isnt created. More Caucasians are killed by police on an annual basis, even percentage wise. Maybe the relevant facts would prevent this from being a race war where things get heated and nothing gets accomplished, and can become an educated discussion on how people can change their attitudes and actions toward police to protect themselves, and police could change their policies/behavior toward suspects so they feel more at ease and less likely to run/be aggressive.

 

Maybe we create an unbiased panel that formally investigates claims of police brutality comprised of people from all walks of life and backgrounds... including former cops, politicians, the common man, and from different races.

 

Theres a lot of direction you can go. THeres a lot that needs to be DONE. But its action. Action that will accomplish something.

Kneeling and then saying - hey heres the money, you guys who have been ineffective so far - keep doing what youre doing. I knelt, i did my part. That aint doing it. Now that the attention is on him, use the podium to demand change. To recommend things. And if recommendations arent tried then we wont play. And if we dont play, one of the largest money-making corporations will slow down.

And if you dont move, its not just me who wont play - ive got 100 prominent players behind me prepared to sit... who've already made multiple millions and are willing to risk one year of play and salary for our people.

 

Thats something people could get behind. Kneeling and donating other peoples money? Not so much.

On the recording thing idea, it's actually against the law in many states to record police activity and they can forcefully remove any recording device. There's plenty of videos of cops taking them away or seeing them as threats.

As for the stats part, there's simply more white people doing everything, period in the US. You'd have to look at the percentage of white interactions with police that end badly vs the percentage of black (or minority in general) interactions with police that end badly.

On the panel idea, I like it in theory. The problem is no matter what it decides, that will also divide people. They'll either be seen as complacent in the matter or others will see them doing nothing but dividing people (the same criticism Kaep's protest is getting).

For action to happen, it requires a will to take action. Not just among a small group, but on a large scale. You get large scale actions through public protests that get more people to pay attention or look up what's happening.

[cobrajet]

I am a little older and it was so drummed into me when I was a child to stand and put your hand over your heart and to have respect for the American Flag that I cringe when I see anyone not doing it. I would have gotten pummeled by my father if I refused to stand and put my hand over my heart to show respect during the Pledge of Allegiance or national anthem. I had a family member who was killed in the Vietnam War and his name is on the wall in DC and my grandfather fought in WWI and he is buried in a national cemetery for veterans and our family has the flag that was over his coffin in a special case. I remember in school we were taught all the patriotic songs and we gathered on the playground around the flag singing those songs. We stood facing the flag every morning with our hand over our heart reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. I do not harbor any hate in my heart for anyone that does not stand for the national anthem but I have to admit, I feel it is a little disrespectful. I guess in today's society you are expected to let individuals express themselves how they want if they are not breaking the law, however there are some exceptions when it come to the workplace. For the record, I have been to too many police funerals to find any humor in Kaepernick's wearing of those socks with the pigs in police hats. I found that to be very disrespectful and IMHO just hurts his protest. I guess the bottom line for me is that I hope the Ravens players stand in a reverent manner during the national anthem but life is too short to be hating on a player for taking a knee or raising a fist.

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

So kaep is donating the money that others spent on his jersey. All hail Robin Hood.

Do you know the dollar figures he's donated, to what charities, and whether thats more or less than what he's made in additional jersey sales since his initial kneel? If not, why do you need others to to have an opinion?

1. Yes, yes he is. Any way you look at it, ANY charitable donations he makes are coming from other people's money, because his employment status and his earnings are 100% based on consumer spending. Every cent of his salary that he donates to charity was funded by consumer spending. That's the circle of the economy.

2. Nope, I don't. My entire premise is that I don't, nor do you or anybody else. So when people claim that he does OR doesn't (as others have done), its simply a claim of ignorance, because they don't have that information.

They can GUESS he doesn't, but that's all it is... a guess.

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, Tiznut said:

Nope. I agree that you're a self important guy who lied about research because kaep was open and honest about his donations. So claiming you've done research shows you're willing to lie to make your argument. 

FUTURE donations. Key distinction you left out to continue to move the cross bars so the kick will go through.

No mention whatsoever of past or current donations.

[RaineV1]

3 minutes ago, cobrajet said:

I am a little older and it was so drummed into me when I was a child to stand and put your hand over your heart and to have respect for the American Flag that I cringe when I see anyone not doing it. I would have gotten pummeled by my father if I refused to stand and put my hand over my heart to show respect during the Pledge of Allegiance or national anthem. I had a family member who was killed in the Vietnam War and his name is on the wall in DC and my grandfather fought in WWI and he is buried in a national cemetery for veterans and our family has the flag that was over his coffin in a special case. I remember in school we were taught all the patriotic songs and we gathered on the playground around the flag singing those songs. We stood facing the flag every morning with our hand over our heart reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. I do not harbor any hate in my heart for anyone that does not stand for the national anthem but I have to admit, I feel it is a little disrespectful. I guess in today's society you are expected to let individuals express themselves how they want if they are not breaking the law, however there are some exceptions when it come to the workplace. For the record, I have been to too many police funerals to find any humor in Kaepernick's wearing of those socks with the pigs in police hats. I found that to be very disrespectful and IMHO just hurts his protest. I guess the bottom line for me is that I hope the Ravens players stand in a reverent manner during the national anthem but life is too short to be hating on a player for taking a knee or raising a fist.

Definitely agree that it hurt his protest and that was a very dumb move. When you decide to become a public figure for a cause you need to think very carefully about the image you project. Kaep obviously didn't think about it when he wore those.

Edited September 13, 2016 by RaineV1

[Tiznut]

2 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. Yes, yes he is. Any way you look at it, ANY charitable donations he makes are coming from other people's money, because his employment status and his earnings are 100% based on consumer spending. Every cent of his salary that he donates to charity was funded by consumer spending. That's the circle of the economy.

2. Nope, I don't. My entire premise is that I don't, nor do you or anybody else. So when people claim that he does OR doesn't (as others have done), its simply a claim of ignorance, because they don't have that information.

They can GUESS he doesn't, but that's all it is... a guess.

This (your #1) is where I agree with your tone. Regardless of how he made the money, legally of course, it's still his so it's a good gesture he's donating it. 

[Tiznut]

2 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

FUTURE donations. Key distinction you left out to continue to move the cross bars so the kick will go through.

No mention whatsoever of past or current donations.

Didn't leave anything out.  It's amazing that you finally got off your butt and researched it for once instead of claiming you did before. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

3 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

On the recording thing idea, it's actually against the law in many states to record police activity and they can forcefully remove any recording device. There's plenty of videos of cops taking them away or seeing them as threats.

As for the stats part, there's simply more white people doing everything, period in the US. You'd have to look at the percentage of white interactions with police that end badly vs the percentage of black (or minority in general) interactions with police that end badly.

On the panel idea, I like it in theory. The problem is no matter what it decides, that will also divide people. They'll either be seen as complacent in the matter or others will see them doing nothing but dividing people (the same criticism Kaep's protest is getting).

For action to happen, it requires a will to take action. Not just among a small group, but on a large scale. You get large scale actions through public protests that get more people to pay attention or look up what's happening.

Exactly. And imo only, but i strongly believe that for an action as drastic as changing the status quo on how the police are perceived and handled... a long standing untouchable class of people, who in many ways are rightfully given the utmost respect and benefit of the doubt bc they do risk their lives protecting people they dont know or get credit from; for a salary far less than they deserve.... but to effect change that large its going to take a large will to take action.

And thats really my point. The will to kneel isnt really a strong enough will or action to make this change.

If youre going to stand on the platform, and you truly understand the change youre after, have educated yourself on the matter, then you also understand the massive undertaking it is and how much it would take to affect change... and thats where my opinion that kaep comes of woefully uneducated and disingenuous. If he truly meant what he says, and understood the problem, then he'd also understand that its going to take a helluva lot more on his part to even take the first step, than kneeling during the anthem... since the anthem really is not a symbol of the police.

 

On the recording aspect - ok then, educate people to understand where their rights begin and end. Maybe thats the first step is getting a federal law passed that each person has the right to record law enforcement for their personal protection if law enforcement has the right to record us.

See that, in just a brief dialogue we unearthed something that seems entirely based in common sense, would probably be easy to motivate people to act on, is actually an achievable goal, and if/once achieved probably WOULD make people feel safer in their dealing with law enforcement, and would put them on notice for their behavior with having to feel like they could be recorded at any time, on any traffic stop.

 

And if we can do that in a football fan forum.... come up with an actionable item, that would invoke change, and result in real measurable change, that would probably make people feel safer, and hold both sides of the coin accountable... then i imagine Mr. Kaepernick in his unimaginable wealth (at least in my reality) could come up with something more effective than kneeling.

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I guess the real question is - how does him kneeling for the anthem instill change in the police who he says brutalize his people? What pressure does it put on them to change?

 

Francis Scott Key was actually on a ship negotiating the release of my great, great, great ,great, great ( i dont know how many) grandfather when he wrote the Star Spangled Banner. I hold it in a very personal light. I'm very proud of it - to have my blood tied to something that so many people take pride in.

But Kaep kneeling doesnt even offend me in any way or make me care about what he thinks.

And i guess thats my only point. There are much more effective things he could do. I feel like this is a pretty easy one... makes him look good, takes minimal effort, gets maximum exposure, and doesnt require him to follow up in any way - it puts the onus on everyone else to follow through.

Depends on perception of what the problem is.

If you ask several Black personalities who have been outspoken about this, the #1 problem is lack of dialogue and discussion. 

If you believe that to be the case (which I don't), then he accomplished quite a bit. 

He alone, obviously, isn't anywhere near enough powerful to institute the kind of change that is required, if any is required at all. There's very few individual people in this countries history that have that kind of power. He would be merely a part of the solution, not the solution itself.

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, Tiznut said:

Didn't leave anything out.  It's amazing that you finally got off your butt and researched it for once instead of claiming you did before. 

1. I don't even have to move my butt to do research.

2. Ironic, given how you make claims about what people spend their money on and have absolutely no support for those claims.

Keep throwing it against the wall. Maybe soon it will stick.

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, ravensdfan said:

Yes it does. What you are missing however is that it is also within everyone's First Amendment rights to disagree with him, even vehemently. I didn't feel that the kneeling itself was the issue but the false narrative it represents. He was a QB on his way to being irrelevant so you DO have to question motives here. And yes, his charitable donations happened AFTER he took all the heat for it.

 

Personally, I thought what the Seattle Seahawks did was much more powerful. Instead of attempting an action that everyone knew would divide people - they chose one to promote unity, community, empathy and compassion.

 

 

How am I missing that? I literally already said this... he has the right to make this statement, just like people have the right to criticize him for it, just like I have the right to criticize the people who criticize him for it.

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, ellicottraven said:

Sure it does. But in my view, it is highly hypocritical because the Armed forces fight to keep our first amendment rights intact, and they're the most significant representation of the Flag and Anthem. Without their service, sacrifice and protection what rights would we really have? While I have no qualms with your reasoning, I do have an issue with making the Anthem the focus of a protest. In my view, there are several ways he could exercise his fight for justice, but not giving the perception of disrespect for the rendition of the Anthem.

I mean he did publicly acknowledge that its not directed towards the military. And frankly, I'm not really sure how many other ways he can show his protest. If he protests privately, will anybody notice or care?

Protests generally involve the public in some form or fashion, so that they can get the issue brought up to a greater audience.

[Tiznut]

3 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. I don't even have to move my butt to do research.

2. Ironic, given how you make claims about what people spend their money on and have absolutely no support for those claims.

Keep throwing it against the wall. Maybe soon it will stick.

Where did I make a claim about how he spends his money?

 

the last line applies to you. You're ignorant as to what I know if the situation so like a child you're just talking and talking in hopes of that by talking more you'll look educated on the topic. That's all this is which is why you've replied to EVERY post. 

[The Mom Gene]

Just now, rmcjacket23 said:

I mean he did publicly acknowledge that its not directed towards the military. And frankly, I'm not really sure how many other ways he can show his protest. If he protests privately, will anybody notice or care?

Protests generally involve the public in some form or fashion, so that they can get the issue brought up to a greater audience.

The people that matter?  The people that need his help?  Ask Ray Lewis about it.  I have a right to disagree with how he handled it, and I do disagree with it.  You want to make a difference?  Donations are one thing...  Get out there and show yourself, and do the due diligence that needs to be done personally with some of these kids that are killing each other.  That is what is going to help or make a difference.  Not taking a knee...  and not money.  And THAT is my opinion.  And I'm out.

[GrimCoconut]

2 hours ago, Peter Griffin said:

Sorry, but you are clueless about the Anthem. The reason we stand for the Anthem, is to honor the fallen who gave their lives for us to remain a free nation. The Government has NOTHING to do with it, it is a non-political expression of thanks. I loathe the Government, but I would never disrespect the Flag of our Country and the men and women who died to protect it. 

The National Anthem and the Pledge of Allegiance are certainly two different things entirely. Standing for the National Anthem does not necessarily show support of the American government but that particular stanza we sing of the National Anthem is about American perseverance and the perseverance of our nation in the face of certain defeat. I'm not sure who here knows about The Battle of Baltimore as it [The National Anthem] is a poem about the battle and our perseverance over the British. It is not about pledging your allegiance to this country, of which we have the Pledge of Allegiance to fulfill that purpose; rather, this is about remembering American perseverance and patriotism. I'm not disagreeing with you, only augmenting your comment. 

As an active service member in our armed forced, and as someone who had members of his family serve in multiple wars and in different branches of service and who has lost some friends as a consequence of war and to 'defend freedom', all I will say as to my opinion on this subject is the following:

I don't agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it  - Evelyn Beatrice Hall (not Voltaire)

If he wishes to protect the National Anthem then he has the right, and any Ravens player who wishes to do the same has that same right since this is a free country where we are all allowed to respectfully and peacefully protest in our own way.

Edited September 13, 2016 by GrimCoconut

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

5 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. Yes, yes he is. Any way you look at it, ANY charitable donations he makes are coming from other people's money, because his employment status and his earnings are 100% based on consumer spending. Every cent of his salary that he donates to charity was funded by consumer spending. That's the circle of the economy.

2. Nope, I don't. My entire premise is that I don't, nor do you or anybody else. So when people claim that he does OR doesn't (as others have done), its simply a claim of ignorance, because they don't have that information.

They can GUESS he doesn't, but that's all it is... a guess.

Yea but his salary is performance based. He actually controls the amount of that he receives. Football has become a commodity, and performance has a quantifiable dollar amount given to it. There was an expectation of earnings when he entered the profession based on performance. He met those performance goals, and has earned the expected income. At least the money received here is in direct relation to the fan experience he creates. His positive play creates a positive fan experience.

His jersey is created by Nike. He's not involved at all. His likeness is, but the value of his likeness is dependent upon public perception. His perception received a boost based on something he deemed a selfless act in the name of equality. To profit off of that would be in direct contradiction of that sentiment.

Donating profits to a cause that you would have never gained without aligning yourself with that cause doesnt gain you any good will in my eyes.

Giving a donation to a "Charitable Fund" for the medical costs of a cancer patient that happens to be me, does not make me a supporter of cancer research or an activist if i wouldnt have donated said money to someone elses fund.

 

Not a direct correlation there. And youre right in that i dont know if he donated anything prior to this whole thing. But i do know he wasnt donating 100% of his jersey sales prior to this event. So im not going to praise him for doing so now, since he's only become #1 in jersey sales bc of kneeling... He's donating the money of people who bought his jersey bc they back him for supporting the cause they believe in, likely bc they were somehow effected by police brutality or an unfair judicial system...

Its like the Church taking in a collection during service, donating it to some charity and giving the Church itself or the leader all the credit instead of the parishioners or followers..

[ellicottraven]

1 minute ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I mean he did publicly acknowledge that its not directed towards the military. And frankly, I'm not really sure how many other ways he can show his protest. If he protests privately, will anybody notice or care?

Protests generally involve the public in some form or fashion, so that they can get the issue brought up to a greater audience.

Maybe he did acknowledge that his protest had nothing to do with the military. But, when somebody does what he did the first time without explanation, the perception that is formed by most people ( In Kap's case that he was being disrespectful to the military) is etched in people's minds. In such cases perception becomes reality. Now on the other hand, had he put out some information out there that he was going to do what he did but it was meant for a specific reason and not as an affront to the Armed services, this wouldn't have been so bad. That's really my point. If somebody wants to protest in this manner for equality and justice for all no issues at all. My point is just make sure people understand the reasoning behind it, so there is not so much speculation afterward. The way Kap did it while it brought notice to his issue, didn't get as much positive traction as he would've gotten had he announced beforehand his reasoning for doing so.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

11 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Depends on perception of what the problem is.

If you ask several Black personalities who have been outspoken about this, the #1 problem is lack of dialogue and discussion. 

If you believe that to be the case (which I don't), then he accomplished quite a bit. 

He alone, obviously, isn't anywhere near enough powerful to institute the kind of change that is required, if any is required at all. There's very few individual people in this countries history that have that kind of power. He would be merely a part of the solution, not the solution itself.

No it doesnt depend on perception.

We're talking about it, we talked about it. Several cities rioted. Nothing changed. You can perceive more discussion to be the answer... but its not. Thats a fact.

Programs. Action. Laws. Legislation on the state and federal levels. Education. These things might cause change.

A national discussion will result in the same exact thing that this forum discussion will result in. at the end, the two sides still trying to prove their case, and if anything a further wedge between them.

[Cillmatic]

Who cares? It's a free country, if they feel the need to sit down let them sit down, this whole thing has gotten WAY too much attention.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

7 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

The National Anthem and the Pledge of Allegiance are certainly two different things entirely. Standing for the National Anthem does not necessarily show support of the American government but that particular stanza we sing of the National Anthem is about American perseverance and the perseverance of our nation in the face of certain defeat. I'm not sure who here knows about The Battle of Baltimore as it's a poem about the battle and our perseverance over the British. It is not about pledging your allegiance to this country, of which we have the Pledge of Allegiance to fulfill that purpose; rather, this is about remembering American perseverance and patriotism. I'm not disagreeing with you, only augmenting your comment. 

As an active service member in our armed forced, and as someone who had members of his family serve in multiple wars and in different branches of service, all I will say as to my opinion on this subject is the following:

I don't agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it  - Evelyn Beatrice Hall (not Voltaire)

If he wishes to protect the National Anthem then he has the right, and any Ravens player who wishes to do the same has that same right since this is a free country where we are all allowed to respectfully and peacefully protest in our own way.

I really dont think anyone disagrees with this sentiment. At least not anyone reasonable.

 

I simply add after that, if Kaep is serious about his cause - kneeling aint getting it done. It's a cute first step. Gets people talking about. But... NOW WHAT?? Put your money where your mouth is and see this thing through.

 

Thats all. Otherwise, i see him just like everyone else that complains and cries and does nothing about it, or wants someone to do it for them.

 

As much as we knocked Monroe, the one thing I respected is that he walks the walk. He speaks publicly, he attends panels with experts, he does the research, he stands behind his belief even if it put his job in jeopardy... and he made the decision that hes financially stable and wants to focus on his cause 100% bc he knows thats the only way he can take it where he wants.

Thats a man, that i believe, wants to change it.

Funny, a lot of people knocked Monroe and said he just wanted to legalize so he can get high, blah blah blah. And while some joked there were many who believed that. And that was ok. It was ok to trivialize the guy whos actually walking the walk.

But a guy who kneels, says its in the name of whatever... everyone is treating the guy like a martyr.

Edited September 13, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[GrimCoconut]

3 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I really dont think anyone disagrees with this sentiment. At least not anyone reasonable.

 

I simply add after that, if Kaep is serious about his cause - kneeling aint getting it done. It's a cute first step. Gets people talking about. But... NOW WHAT?? Put your money where your mouth is and see this thing through.

 

Thats all. Otherwise, i see him just like everyone else that complains and cries and does nothing about it, or wants someone to do it for them.

That's certainly fair criticism of these protests. I mean, then again, what does a protest actually accomplish besides drawing public attention? I personally believe protests serve the purpose of drawing public attention to subjects rather than action. I will say, though, that there have been protests that have successfully turned into action. That said, I do feel this whole thing is getting pretty political here, so I'm not sure how long this conversation will continue. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

17 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

How am I missing that? I literally already said this... he has the right to make this statement, just like people have the right to criticize him for it, just like I have the right to criticize the people who criticize him for it.

But thats not an apples to apples comparison in my opinion. Yes there are people truly criticizing kap for the act of kneeling itself... and thats stupid imo. and wrong.

What I, and i believe the others youre arguing with here, are saying is that we're fine with him kneeling. Have at it. Do what you want, your free to have your opinion. Youre just stupid if you think that bc youre a celebrity, kneeling is going to be taken seriously as activism. Thats something a middle school kid does and its cute and makes the local news, but doesnt do anything.

Hes actually wealthy. This is a complex problem hes chosen to put his name on. He actually has resources. And he kneels. KNEELS.

Sure you can criticize people all you want for thinking thats stupid on his part and falls far short of making the mark HE COULD MAKE IF HE WANTED TO. But, we're not trying to take his freedom to do what he wants away, just hoping he'd become educated on what actually inspires change.

Seems, you just dont was us to disagree. 

[rmcjacket23]

13 minutes ago, The Mom Gene said:

The people that matter?  The people that need his help?  Ask Ray Lewis about it.  I have a right to disagree with how he handled it, and I do disagree with it.  You want to make a difference?  Donations are one thing...  Get out there and show yourself, and do the due diligence that needs to be done personally with some of these kids that are killing each other.  That is what is going to help or make a difference.  Not taking a knee...  and not money.  And THAT is my opinion.  And I'm out.

1. The people that need his help are quite literally thousands if not millions of people, so he's not going to be able to individually reach them all.

2. Perhaps he will get out there and show himself, though that's easier for Ray Lewis, since he's not really employed right now. Kaepernick has a full time responsibility of being a football player for at least half a year. 

3. If he did all of that privately, he would be making a difference. However, if he does all of that AND bring awareness to the issue via public protest, he will get others to do those things as well. He won't be the first or last guy to donate time and money to causes that help these issues, and his actions are a direct reason why others will do it.

4. While Ray Lewis spends a great deal of time personally meeting with people he wishes to help, lets not pretend like he does this privately. He's very big on making sure that his message is carried publicly, via several different avenues. Why? Because you reach more people that way.

[PurpleCorsair]

2 hours ago, Tiznut said:

No I don't. Who died and made you king. To say I need to cite sources. This is again about you not knowing anything . Just because you don't know what was said or done the previous weeks ago doesn't mean everyone is ignorant to the situation.  Not sure how or why it's hard for you to understand you not knowing something doesn't mean the rest of us don't.  The fact that you also glossed over the fact that other players have said they are simply kneeling because kaep took hits in the media also lets me know that you're just here to defend the action and not listen to what others have said. 

Citing sources is  (required) practice for good journalism and good science and prevents people from making unsubstantiated claims and presenting them as fact. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

2 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

That's certainly fair criticism of these protests. I mean, then again, what does a protest actually accomplish besides drawing public attention? I personally believe protests serve the purpose of drawing public attention to subjects rather than action. I will say, though, that there have been protests that have successfully turned into action. That said, I do feel this whole thing is getting pretty political here, so I'm not sure how long this conversation will continue. 

Yea, and thats my point. All im saying is if youre going to create the platform, stand on it and use it to advise action or inspire action.

Sure the initial protest just draws attention. But, now youve got us Kaep. We're all listening. And, in essence, what he showed us is that he wanted to attention..................................................... to make a donation............................................... of fans money...................................... who bought his jersey................................... because he knelt.

[Moderator 3]

Since this is no longer about the Ravens, or even football for that matter, it is being moved.  As long as the conversation stays civil and doesn't go all political, the thread can continue.