Will Any Ravens Take a Knee in Protest

[Tiznut]

Just now, rmcjacket23 said:

Well we don't really know that for sure. Its not like all of these players publicly disclose to everybody when they are going to make charitable donations. He could have been doing this all along or not at all... we have no idea.

Um.  If you have followed the kaep issue you actually do know when he started to discuss what he will now do.

 

so because YOU haven't followed it or heard about it don't project that onto others. 

[ellicottraven]

My opinion is the First Amendment extends to all Americans. So, if people choose to kneel during the Anthem, it's really their prerogative. However, prior to taking this stand, I would like them to sign a declaration that they respect our Armed forces and this act is simply a protest for equal justice for all in America. Nothing more and nothing less.

Edited September 13, 2016 by ellicottraven

[rmcjacket23]

Just now, Tiznut said:

Um.  If you have followed the kaep issue you actually do know when he started to discuss what he will now do.

 

so because YOU haven't followed it or heard about it don't project that onto others. 

You missed the point. The bolded part is the key... when he TOLD YOU he was going to do it.

That's when YOU were notified of his intentions, not when he actually did it or if he had actually did it.

Players donate time and money to charities on a weekly basis, and the public rarely has any knowledge of this. Why? Because they don't publicly announce it.

I do also find it odd that we have now started to criticize him FOR donating to charity, and we would also criticize him for NOT donating to charity.

All circles back to the public's preference... "shut up and stay in your lane". 

[rmcjacket23]

3 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

My opinion is the First Amendment extends to all Americans. So, if people choose to kneel during the Anthem, it's really their prerogative. However, prior to taking this stand, I would like them to sign a declaration that they respect our Armed forces and this act is simply a protest for equal justice for all in America. Nothing more and nothing less.

I mean, that's great, but what exactly does that accomplish? Isn't that just for the public to feel better and not be offended?

What if he is protesting our Armed Forces? That, too, falls under his First Amendment rights.

[Tiznut]

4 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

You missed the point. The bolded part is the key... when he TOLD YOU he was going to do it.

That's when YOU were notified of his intentions, not when he actually did it or if he had actually did it.

Players donate time and money to charities on a weekly basis, and the public rarely has any knowledge of this. Why? Because they don't publicly announce it.

I do also find it odd that we have now started to criticize him FOR donating to charity, and we would also criticize him for NOT donating to charity.

All circles back to the public's preference... "shut up and stay in your lane". 

No I got your point and with this specific person you are wrong. I know most charitable donations and work goes unreported but this specific person wasn't donating or doing anything for the cause he claimed UNTIL he was called out.  

 

Again stop projecting your ignorance on the event onto others. 

Edited September 13, 2016 by Tiznut

[rmcjacket23]

Just now, Tiznut said:

No I got your point and with this specific person you are wrong. I know most charitable donations and work goes unreported but this specific person wasn't donating or doing anything for the cause he claimed UNTIL he was called out.  

You're going to need to cite a source to make that claim.

I've done this research also... I don't see anything, because as I said, Kaepernick's private financial information isn't exactly known to the public. You'd likely need things like tax records (or an admission of this from himself) in order to verify this.

Hence my "unreported" argument. There's what the public sees and thinks and are told, and then there's reality. The two often can be very, very different from each other.

[flynismo]

56 minutes ago, ERey said:

The issue is based on a false narrative. So now kneeling has become merely fashionable. It's a fad. It will fade away and nothing will be down about whatever it was the original protest was about - if it was about anything.

I agree completely

Edited September 13, 2016 by flynismo

[Tiznut]

2 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

You're going to need to cite a source to make that claim.

I've done this research also... I don't see anything, because as I said, Kaepernick's private financial information isn't exactly known to the public. You'd likely need things like tax records (or an admission of this from himself) in order to verify this.

Hence my "unreported" argument. There's what the public sees and thinks and are told, and then there's reality. The two often can be very, very different from each other.

No I don't. Who died and made you king. To say I need to cite sources. This is again about you not knowing anything . Just because you don't know what was said or done the previous weeks ago doesn't mean everyone is ignorant to the situation.  Not sure how or why it's hard for you to understand you not knowing something doesn't mean the rest of us don't.  The fact that you also glossed over the fact that other players have said they are simply kneeling because kaep took hits in the media also lets me know that you're just here to defend the action and not listen to what others have said. 

[Peter Griffin]

30 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

You are standing in support of the government and the country. How is that not a political statement?

If kneeling during the anthem IS a political statement, then by definition, standing for it would be a political statement as well.

In particular, if you are of the mindset that your government and country isn't supporting you (which I don't agree with), then why would you stand in support of them?

Sorry, but you are clueless about the Anthem. The reason we stand for the Anthem, is to honor the fallen who gave their lives for us to remain a free nation. The Government has NOTHING to do with it, it is a non-political expression of thanks. I loathe the Government, but I would never disrespect the Flag of our Country and the men and women who died to protect it. 

[flynismo]

25 minutes ago, ERey said:

I guess everyone has a different interpretation. For me, when I stand for the National Anthem I not supporting any particular party or even the government. The government works for us - for the people by the people (that's how it's supposed to work). When I stand I realize we are not perfect, but I do believe we are the greatest nation and I merely saying I'm proud to be a part of this country.

This is a very important point, and exactly what Ray was talking about in the video. The flag means different things to different people. For me, standing represents showing respect and pride, and especially allegiance, since I am an immigrant (yeah yeah, I know we all are).

This is what makes Kaepernick's actions so disrespectful to a lot of people, and is hurting whatever he thinks his cause is. His perception of the flag is completely opposite of mine.

[757RavensFan]

17 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

My opinion is the First Amendment extends to all Americans. So, if people choose to kneel during the Anthem, it's really their prerogative. However, prior to taking this stand, I would like them to sign a declaration that they respect our Armed forces and this act is simply a protest for equal justice for all in America. Nothing more and nothing less.

In reference to Kaep, he made a public statement that his protest had NOTHING to do with our military and he respects them for what they do.  

[rmcjacket23]

4 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

Sorry, but you are clueless about the Anthem. The reason we stand for the Anthem, is to honor the fallen who gave their lives for us to remain a free nation. The Government has NOTHING to do with it, it is a non-political expression of thanks. I loathe the Government, but I would never disrespect the Flag of our Country and the men and women who died to protect it. 

No, that's the reason YOU and some other people stand for the anthem. There's no universal one specific reason why people stand for the anthem.

To be honest, I'm not even sure why we play the anthem before sporting events. 

[flynismo]

4 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

Sorry, but you are clueless about the Anthem. The reason we stand for the Anthem, is to honor the fallen who gave their lives for us to remain a free nation. The Government has NOTHING to do with it, it is a non-political expression of thanks. I loathe the Government, but I would never disrespect the Flag of our Country and the men and women who died to protect it. 

You'd think that would be obvious just listening to the anthem, especially the unabridged version.

That said, many people have many different things they attach to the anthem in addition to giving thanks. Nobody can really say he's wrong for thinking it means more than just showing appreciation, as long as he understands that appreciation and honor is the primary intention of the anthem.

[Tiznut]

8 minutes ago, 757RavensFan said:

In reference to Kaep, he made a public statement that his protest had NOTHING to do with our military and he respects them for what they do.  

True and this is where I call kneeling ineffective. You do it to protest bad cops who simply don't care if you are saluting or not.  As shaq said he will always salute because he's honoring those that sacrificed for him including his step father 

[RaineV1]

2 minutes ago, Tiznut said:

True and this is where I call kneeling ineffective. You do it to protest bad cops who simply don't care if you are saluting or not.  As shaq said he will always salute because he's honoring those that sacrificed for him including his step father 

The bad cops won't care, but the protest is also against the people that employ and defend the bad cops. It'd be nice if they got a bit of the spotlight rather than the media just focusing on the messenger calling them out. Also, Kaep worked with a former NFL player and green beret to choose kneeling over sitting to make it a sign of protest rather than just disrespect.

[flynismo]

Just now, Tiznut said:

True and this is where I call kneeling ineffective. You do it to protest bad cops who simply don't care if you are saluting or not.  As shaq said he will always salute because he's honoring those that sacrificed for him including his step father 

My problem with Kaepernick, aside from the whole flag thing, is a simple one.

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

If you're going to stand for something, go all in and stand for it, don't stand for it half way. You want to protest a tiny portion of all the cops out there who killed black people? Then protest the ones who killed white people too, since after all, more white people died at the hands of police than black people. Furthermore, if he wants to talk about oppression, then he needs to talk about what the black community needs to do to fix itself first, not just what the rest of the country needs to do to help them out.

[Tiznut]

Just now, RaineV1 said:

The bad cops won't care, but the protest is also against the people that employ and defend the bad cops. It'd be nice if they got a bit of the spotlight rather than the media just focusing on the messenger calling them out. Also, Kaep worked with a former NFL player and green beret to choose kneeling over sitting to make it a sign of protest rather than just disrespect.

It's funny to me that you bring this up. Quite often news reports show cops arrested cops and the general public acts like it's an anomaly to fit the narrative they want to project.  

 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

43 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

Going by this logic all protests are pointless. Kaepernick has spoken about why he's doing it, specifically about the police brutality. He wants a spotlight to be put on the issue and not let the media move on to the next story after this one becomes old news. And he has put his money where his mouth is in giving to charities to help people effected by it. Aside from that there isn't much a single person can do other than speak out for harsher punishments for the cops that do it.

As for the courageous comment, we've seen the reaction. We've seen Trump telling him to go live in another country, we've seen Dilfer telling him to get back in line and be quiet, and that's not even scratching the surface of the vile comments online. It is brave to be in that spotlight and take all the hate to get a message out.

No, by this logic not all protests are pointless. Some protests are organized... designed to get the brutal reaction from police, government, the body theyre in opposition to and the resulting attention will highlight that behavior bringing about national discourse. Some protests literally force the opposition to back down and change, like workers picketing.

In many protests there is literally if we do A, eventually B will happen, which if effective will lead to C which is our desired result. Does it always work? No, of course not.

But if the C you want is less police brutality against minorities... I dont see how kneeling during the national anthem forces police to change. Unless kneeling during the anthem is simply the catalyst and Kaep has a call to action, a 2nd tier to the plan.

The charity i dont buy as genuine. Can you imagine the back lash if he PROFITED from kneeling during the anthem?? He'd be crucified and any true intentions he had would be lost. It'd be viewed as a popularity thing, attention grab to stay in the spotlight, and he was happy to make a buck when his jersey sales soared. Of course hes gotta give that money away - theres no choice in the matter. Again, whether thats fair or not - thats the truth. And, as such, its tough to judge. I dont know that hes ever donated before this. If not, why not? hes certainly had disposable income for some time and has had to have felt this way for some time?

 

Again, i think the heart is in the right place. But making the statement by kneeling and then kind of shying away from the attention when it comes is counter-productive if you ask me. If anything it only hurts his cause if - given his platform he finally gets people talking and paying attention and he shrinks from the moment or lets it pass. Those being effected by the violence arent getting the stage. 1 month after the event theyre forgotten. He's got a chance apparently to make it stick. If he doesnt progress it, hes only hurt things imo.

You cant do this type of stuff half way. Thats why the Ali's, Robinson's, MLK's, Malcolms, Ghandi's... i mean no one remembers the protesters at Tieneman Square (sp?) but everyone remembers the individual that ran in front of the tank and got it to stop. If not for that individual, the event means nothing now.

If all Kaep does is kneel a couple times, keeps collecting his pay check where hes working in a system of white, male billionaires who no matter how much they pay the labor - the system only continues if theyre profiting 10 fold what the athlete is.... and becomes satisfied with "well i donated a couple hundred thousand dollars which, well wasnt even really my money, its just the people who believe in this too who spent money to support me, so i have to support them back... and i kneeled for a while so people talked... job done. Lets play ball. (hand over heart.... OH say can you....) 

That doesnt work for me.

[757RavensFan]

Time to log off this post.  Peace, I'm out!!

[rmcjacket23]

9 minutes ago, Tiznut said:

No I don't. Who died and made you king. To say I need to cite sources. This is again about you not knowing anything . Just because you don't know what was said or done the previous weeks ago doesn't mean everyone is ignorant to the situation.  Not sure how or why it's hard for you to understand you not knowing something doesn't mean the rest of us don't.  The fact that you also glossed over the fact that other players have said they are simply kneeling because kaep took hits in the media also lets me know that you're just here to defend the action and not listen to what others have said. 

Cool. So you're agreeing that you don't actually know what charities Kap donates to and you're just making assumptions to fit whatever narrative you have?

Thanks, thats all I wanted to hear.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I guess the real question is - how does him kneeling for the anthem instill change in the police who he says brutalize his people? What pressure does it put on them to change?

 

Francis Scott Key was actually on a ship negotiating the release of my great, great, great ,great, great ( i dont know how many) grandfather when he wrote the Star Spangled Banner. I hold it in a very personal light. I'm very proud of it - to have my blood tied to something that so many people take pride in.

But Kaep kneeling doesnt even offend me in any way or make me care about what he thinks.

And i guess thats my only point. There are much more effective things he could do. I feel like this is a pretty easy one... makes him look good, takes minimal effort, gets maximum exposure, and doesnt require him to follow up in any way - it puts the onus on everyone else to follow through.

Edited September 13, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

2 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Cool. So you're agreeing that you don't actually know what charities Kap donates to and you're just making assumptions to fit whatever narrative you have?

Thanks, thats all I wanted to hear.

So kaep is donating the money that others spent on his jersey. All hail Robin Hood.

Do you know the dollar figures he's donated, to what charities, and whether thats more or less than what he's made in additional jersey sales since his initial kneel? If not, why do you need others to to have an opinion?

Edited September 13, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[Tiznut]

1 minute ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Cool. So you're agreeing that you don't actually know what charities Kap donates to and you're just making assumptions to fit whatever narrative you have?

Thanks, thats all I wanted to hear.

Nope. I agree that you're a self important guy who lied about research because kaep was open and honest about his donations. So claiming you've done research shows you're willing to lie to make your argument. 

[Tiznut]

2 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I guess the real question is - how does him kneeling for the anthem instill change in the police who he says brutalize his people? What pressure does it put on them to change?

 

Francis Scott Key was actually on a ship negotiating the release of my great, great, great ,great, great ( i dont know how many) grandfather when he wrote the Star Spangled Banner. I hold it in a very personal light. I'm very proud of it - to have my blood tied to something that so many people take pride in.

But Kaep kneeling doesnt even offend me in any way or make me care about what he thinks.

And i guess thats my only point. There are much more effective things he could do. I feel like this is a pretty easy one... makes him look good, takes minimal effort, gets maximum exposure, and doesnt require him to follow up in any way - it puts the onus on everyone else to follow through.

It doesn't and that's where the issue came up and when he decided to do a bit more. It's also why, again to me, it's laughable that others then joined in just to support the treatment kaep was getting and not to promote change or help any actual causes (specificly referring to that female soccer player)

[ravensdfan]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I mean, that's great, but what exactly does that accomplish? Isn't that just for the public to feel better and not be offended?

What if he is protesting our Armed Forces? That, too, falls under his First Amendment rights.

Yes it does. What you are missing however is that it is also within everyone's First Amendment rights to disagree with him, even vehemently. I didn't feel that the kneeling itself was the issue but the false narrative it represents. He was a QB on his way to being irrelevant so you DO have to question motives here. And yes, his charitable donations happened AFTER he took all the heat for it.

 

Personally, I thought what the Seattle Seahawks did was much more powerful. Instead of attempting an action that everyone knew would divide people - they chose one to promote unity, community, empathy and compassion.

 

 

[ellicottraven]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I mean, that's great, but what exactly does that accomplish? Isn't that just for the public to feel better and not be offended?

What if he is protesting our Armed Forces? That, too, falls under his First Amendment rights.

Sure it does. But in my view, it is highly hypocritical because the Armed forces fight to keep our first amendment rights intact, and they're the most significant representation of the Flag and Anthem. Without their service, sacrifice and protection what rights would we really have? While I have no qualms with your reasoning, I do have an issue with making the Anthem the focus of a protest. In my view, there are several ways he could exercise his fight for justice, but not giving the perception of disrespect for the rendition of the Anthem.

Edited September 13, 2016 by ellicottraven

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I guess to me, if youre going to protest something and be believable and instill change - you personally have to have something on the line. Kaeps free to do whatever and so is everyone else. But, hes donating other peoples money who paid for his jersey. Yea he couldve kept it.... couldve. but not really.

if he infuriates the police, its the people who's kneeling for that will take the brunt of it. It wont be him getting tasered, or beat down during a routine traffic stop bc he ticked off that active and aggressive minority. If people get behind him and are incited to act, try to make change in their cities... it wont be kaep getting arrested or locked up for it.

So, until he puts something on the line - refuses to play in a league that mirrors the corrupt system he despises, where rich, white men get richer off the backs of the actual talent. Where owners get caught with drugs and get a slap on the wrist, while a player can fail a drug test for diluted sample and lose game checks and potentially his job. Where these privileged, white, male owners are literally allowed to skirt federal anti-trust laws to protect their billion dollar empires that they can pass on from generation to generation and really only be unseated by their own desire to sell. Whereas the talent that builds these empires is replaced the second their performance drops, or an injury occurs.

Hes a cog in a mirror system to the one he "protests." 

And until he, and these other millionaire athletes are willing to risk anything in their protected, privileged lives (not that its un-earned - not saying that) whether its their pay check, their spot on the team, or until theyre willing to protest the unfair system that feeds them, how can they expect young african americans to rebel against the government that while often times unfair or unjust, also provides the public programs they may rely on to feed their family, or the public schools they rely on to improve their situation, or the government grant they may need to further their education and career, the health care they need to keep them alive.... etc...

 

Kaep is a perfect microcosm of the whole situation. Heres a guy who breathed life into an otherwise dead franchise, brought them unprecedented success over a few year span, nearly brought them to the pinnacle of their profession 3 years in a row, was "rewarded" with a contract not on par with similar, pocket, white QBs in that his met similar $ figures but was laden with incentives, bench marks, and health demands.

Then, after one poor year... mind you a year with a brand new HC where the one he grew under was unjustly dismissed, in a brand new system that didnt fit or exploit his skill set... the same team that benefitted immensely and made millions from his image and performance now tries to ship him off, and the only way teams will take him is if he's willing to accept a massive pay cut. So now hes put in a situation where he'll sit the bench and be happy with it, or be cut and make a fraction elsewhere while fighting to keep his career alive.

Meanwhile, the white, powerful owner that made hundreds of millions off of him actually gets his job protected by the government even though it was partially his awful decision making (firing Jim Harbaugh) that led to droves of players leaving and retiring and the team failing.

 

A mirror image of the system he kneels against. But since that one effects his livelihood he just plays right along "i dont want any trouble, just let me express myself and ill sit on the bench just quiet how you like" but sends the message that those less fortunate than him, who have even more at stake should be doing something.

[RaineV1]

1 minute ago, ravensdfan said:

Yes it does. What you are missing however is that it is also within everyone's First Amendment rights to disagree with him, even vehemently. I didn't feel that the kneeling itself was the issue but the false narrative it represents. He was a QB on his way to being irrelevant so you DO have to question motives here. And yes, his charitable donations happened AFTER he took all the heat for it.

 

Personally, I thought what the Seattle Seahawks did was much more powerful. Instead of attempting an action that everyone knew would divide people - they chose one to promote unity, community, empathy and compassion.

 

 

The Seahawks symbol of unity seemed more like supporting the status quo and quelling any dissent. Any message about there being something wrong is going to divide people. Mindlessly repeating how great America is and calling it number one doesn't exactly address the fact that there are widespread issues with it. Which is exactly what many people want, unity without questioning things.

[AsianRice]

why don't those protest players doing something more proactive? like sharing some of their big fat paycheck to some of our the needy people on the street? 

 

I don't care what they doing but the media just keep advertising their childish protest......

 

I'm glad we have Harbaugh......

 

PS: I always give money to the people who standing on the corner of traffic light with sign for help although I don't know what they do with the money but that's my help....

[Edug27]

This thread can get ugly fairly quick. Everyone has their own views on this topic and those views should be respected. Players standing, sitting, kneeling etc has nothing to do with 'respect' ... It's all about their views ... and again, those should be respected. There is a lot of protesting going on in this world besides this one. You support the ones you can relate to or understand. You oppose the ones you don't. Doesn't make it right or wrong.