Week 1: The good the bad and the ugly vs Buffalo

[flynismo]

13 hours ago, Militant X 1 said:

Tyrod huggers?  LOL!!

I like Tyrod!  Always have and always will and I want him to do well in his career....just not against us!  And that's what happened yesterday.  I actually predicted that the Bills would win the game and I thought Tyrod would do a little better in the passing area against us than he did but chalk that up to Pees calling a great game as Suggs said and our defense beasting!  It was great to see!  So, give credit to where it is due!

It's the big leagues man. Can't just prey on the weak opponents and think you're doing something.

But yeah, got nothing but love for Tyrod. Class guy, and will be a very good QB for years to come. I'd love nothing more than to see him lead BUF to the playoffs. He has it in him, but I do think he needs another year before he's ready. It's kind of a shame that he spent four years of his career sitting on the bench when he could have been out there getting game time in.

Edited September 13, 2016 by flynismo

[Militant X 1]

4 minutes ago, flynismo said:

It's the big leagues man. Can't just prey on the weak opponents and think you're doing something.

But yeah, got nothing but love for Tyrod. Class guy, and will be a very good QB for years to come.

Pees scripted up a nice game plan against Tyrod bro!  I believe I gave him props for that man but C'mon now...it was just 1 game.  

Glad we won but Tyrod is a cat that I have always liked and will always support throughout his NFL career UNTIL he faces the Ravens of course.  We all have our favorite NFL players and Tyrod happens to be one of mine and I wish him well!

[flynismo]

1 minute ago, Militant X 1 said:

Pees scripted up a nice game plan against Tyrod bro!  I believe I gave him props for that man but C'mon now...it was just 1 game.  

Glad we won but Tyrod is a cat that I have always liked and will always support throughout his NFL career UNTIL he faces the Ravens of course.  We all have our favorite NFL players and Tyrod happens to be one of mine and I wish him well!

Indeed. I get all sentimental every time I see Kurt Warner or Michael Irvin on the pregame shows...two of my favorite players ever. So many great memories of guys outside of Ravens world. I guess we're football fans, not just Ravens fans!

[rlh445]

14 hours ago, Militant X 1 said:

Tyrod huggers?  LOL!!

I like Tyrod!  Always have and always will and I want him to do well in his career....just not against us!  And that's what happened yesterday.  I actually predicted that the Bills would win the game and I thought Tyrod would do a little better in the passing area against us than he did but chalk that up to Pees calling a great game as Suggs said and our defense beasting!  It was great to see!  So, give credit to where it is due!

Militant, you old dog!  How ya been?

[Militant X 1]

8 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Indeed. I get all sentimental every time I see Kurt Warner or Michael Irvin on the pregame shows...two of my favorite players ever. So many great memories of guys outside of Ravens world. I guess we're football fans, not just Ravens fans!

Aww man!  I absolutely love Kurt Warner and Michael Irvin man!  Those were some warriors back in the day!

7 minutes ago, rlh445 said:

Militant, you old dog!  How ya been?

Sup with you rlh445?  I been good man how about yourself bro?  

Just been excited about the football season starting again.  I predicted that our boys would fall to the Bills in the season opener BUT I am definitely glad that they didn't.  Pees and our defense had my boy Tyrod on lock!  Lol!  Hopefully, they can keep "stacking" (as Harbs always says) wins to this performance.

[rlh445]

1 hour ago, Militant X 1 said:

Aww man!  I absolutely love Kurt Warner and Michael Irvin man!  Those were some warriors back in the day!

Sup with you rlh445?  I been good man how about yourself bro?  

Just been excited about the football season starting again.  I predicted that our boys would fall to the Bills in the season opener BUT I am definitely glad that they didn't.  Pees and our defense had my boy Tyrod on lock!  Lol!  Hopefully, they can keep "stacking" (as Harbs always says) wins to this performance.

 

Hey buddy   I am glad to hear it!  Doing well, doing well.  I had a lot of personal issues last season so couldn't pay as much attention to the Ravens.  Now I'm back!  

Yea I'm assuming that the Ravens just know Tyrod so well and what works against him and that's what saved our bacon because usually we're not the best at containing mobile type QBs.  I hope this trend continues!

[Filmstudy]

My offensive line grades are posted on RSR if you are interested:

http://russellstreetreport.com/2016/09/13/filmstudy/offensive-line-grades-notes-buffalo/

A below average day for the OL with 4 sacks and 8 QHs (+1 negated by penalty) allowed.  Flacco made up for it by being outstanding under pressure.

 

[Ravensfan23]

Something I haven't heard anyone mention but I think it could have been a factor is fatigue in the 2nd half for the offense. This was the first full game of action in a while for a handful of offensive players. Did their previously injured body parts just get tried from being pushed so hard in game action for the first time? It's one thing to have 1 guy returning from injury, but having so many key guys on one side of the ball returning from injury may have taken a toll on the offense. 

Of course the oline had a below average day and we hope it's an aberration but I think one of the reasons Flacco seemed reluctant to escape the pocket was he just didn't wanna do too much on the repaired knee. We've seen Flacco get out of the pocket at times already on the knee so I don't think it was a gun shy thing, but I could definitely understand if fatigue set in and Flacco was just being cautious. 

[sibelius]

12 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Something I haven't heard anyone mention but I think it could have been a factor is fatigue in the 2nd half for the offense. This was the first full game of action in a while for a handful of offensive players. Did their previously injured body parts just get tried from being pushed so hard in game action for the first time? It's one thing to have 1 guy returning from injury, but having so many key guys on one side of the ball returning from injury may have taken a toll on the offense. 

Of course the oline had a below average day and we hope it's an aberration but I think one of the reasons Flacco seemed reluctant to escape the pocket was he just didn't wanna do too much on the repaired knee. We've seen Flacco get out of the pocket at times already on the knee so I don't think it was a gun shy thing, but I could definitely understand if fatigue set in and Flacco was just being cautious. 

My take is they were just figuring it out. Offense is about timing and precision and that takes practice. That is the first time our first team offense has played a live game. 

[The Raven]

19 hours ago, Maryland said:

Could have sworn they were a zone-blocking scheme in Chicago, which is why they targeted Jermon Bushrod when Trestman took over at Chicago. Sounds like you know your stuff though. 

If you ask me, Trestman doesn't know what he wants as far as personnel goes. I'm not sure he's all that good at knowing how to use his guys.

[chunkywill25]

i just got done watching the video on the ravens home site showing every Flacco throw against the bills, and if you focus on Yanda you'll see why he's our best player. dude is a monster. always looking for someone to block

Stanley looked okay. seemed to struggle a bit, but its his first game. maybe he got nervous after the early false start. we've all seen his potential so i think he'll be fine

Edited September 14, 2016 by chunkywill25

[Passepartout]

Flacco at times is a little bit rusty. But he is coming off where his season ending. But still, just needs to get better. Indeed the roles of passing to set up the run in current game days are here to stay.

[The Raven]

3 hours ago, Filmstudy said:

My offensive line grades are posted on RSR if you are interested:

http://russellstreetreport.com/2016/09/13/filmstudy/offensive-line-grades-notes-buffalo/

A below average day for the OL with 4 sacks and 8 QHs (+1 negated by penalty) allowed.  Flacco made up for it by being outstanding under pressure.

 

What issues did you see with Yanda? He seemed solid in the run game but struggled more in pass protection. I was at the game and found it difficult to track everything going on. I felt like Wagner was solid in pass pro but left a lot to be desired in the run game.

[Filmstudy]

19 minutes ago, The Raven said:

What issues did you see with Yanda? He seemed solid in the run game but struggled more in pass protection. I was at the game and found it difficult to track everything going on. I felt like Wagner was solid in pass pro but left a lot to be desired in the run game.

I'm results based and include time references in the article on the plays with big deductions for transparency.  The penalties were the biggest part.  The shared sack (Q4, 13:26) is one I'd like you to look at.  I charged that half to Yanda and half Wagner.  It was a difficult and deep twist handoff of Hughes and Yanda could not hold it.  That play was another -3.  Other than that, he had 1/3 of a QH surrendered by Lewis to Kevin Williams (1st play, 2nd drive, 2nd quarter).  

He also missed 4 blocks, which is higher than normal, including 2 of his 5 pulls.

I'm not concerned yet, but he can and should play much better.

PFF ranked him as the best RG on Sunday.  They were watching a different game from me.

[DomMcRaven]

6 hours ago, Filmstudy said:

My offensive line grades are posted on RSR if you are interested:

http://russellstreetreport.com/2016/09/13/filmstudy/offensive-line-grades-notes-buffalo/

A below average day for the OL with 4 sacks and 8 QHs (+1 negated by penalty) allowed.  Flacco made up for it by being outstanding under pressure.

 

Thanks once again with your insight. Great read.

[arnie_uk]

8 hours ago, Filmstudy said:

My offensive line grades are posted on RSR if you are interested:

http://russellstreetreport.com/2016/09/13/filmstudy/offensive-line-grades-notes-buffalo/

A below average day for the OL with 4 sacks and 8 QHs (+1 negated by penalty) allowed.  Flacco made up for it by being outstanding under pressure.

 

@LosT_in_TranSlatioN

Yanda and zuttah the two worst lineman, not the rookies

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

10 hours ago, chunkywill25 said:

i just got done watching the video on the ravens home site showing every Flacco throw against the bills, and if you focus on Yanda you'll see why he's our best player. dude is a monster. always looking for someone to block

Stanley looked okay. seemed to struggle a bit, but its his first game. maybe he got nervous after the early false start. we've all seen his potential so i think he'll be fine

Odd bc Yanda really didnt have a great game... and not just by his standards. He wasnt bad by any means, but not his usually dominant and mistake-free self.

Edited September 14, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

9 hours ago, arnie_uk said:

@LosT_in_TranSlatioN

Yanda and zuttah the two worst lineman, not the rookies

Understood lol. Am willing to admit I was wrong 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

12 hours ago, arnie_uk said:

@LosT_in_TranSlatioN

Yanda and zuttah the two worst lineman, not the rookies

 

 

To add onto this though. I fully expect Yanda to bounce back and for Lewis and Stanley to eventually play like rookies down the line. Also to clarify, I'm as big a Stanley fan as anybody here on the boards. I'm hoping he turns into a future all pro. But wouldn't be surprsied if they have some similtaneous struggles down the road. 

 

And then a few of his haters will come out and roast him cause he has nothing better to do.

 

But still.  Was 100% wrong. I'll own up to it. 

[Ravensfan23]

18 hours ago, Filmstudy said:

I'm results based and include time references in the article on the plays with big deductions for transparency.  The penalties were the biggest part.  The shared sack (Q4, 13:26) is one I'd like you to look at.  I charged that half to Yanda and half Wagner.  It was a difficult and deep twist handoff of Hughes and Yanda could not hold it.  That play was another -3.  Other than that, he had 1/3 of a QH surrendered by Lewis to Kevin Williams (1st play, 2nd drive, 2nd quarter).  

He also missed 4 blocks, which is higher than normal, including 2 of his 5 pulls.

I'm not concerned yet, but he can and should play much better.

PFF ranked him as the best RG on Sunday.  They were watching a different game from me.

This is exactly why I don't place much stock in grading systems of other people. We just don't see the same game. Some things are obvious to even the untrained eye, but other things are left up to interpretation. I haven't had the time to breakdown the oline from this game, but just from the initial watch, if Yanda was the highest rated OG in week 1 then the rest of the NFL sucked, but he didn't play great at all.

[Militant X 1]

18 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

This is exactly why I don't place much stock in grading systems of other people. We just don't see the same game. Some things are obvious to even the untrained eye, but other things are left up to interpretation. I haven't had the time to breakdown the oline from this game, but just from the initial watch, if Yanda was the highest rated OG in week 1 then the rest of the NFL sucked, but he didn't play great at all.

Agreed!  You can never just go off of what others say not even in here.  Got to watch and judge things for yourself cause all of us will see the same things in different ways.  Hopefully, at the end of our Ravens games though...we'll all see the "W".

[JoeyFlex5]

33 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

This is exactly why I don't place much stock in grading systems of other people. We just don't see the same game. Some things are obvious to even the untrained eye, but other things are left up to interpretation. I haven't had the time to breakdown the oline from this game, but just from the initial watch, if Yanda was the highest rated OG in week 1 then the rest of the NFL sucked, but he didn't play great at all.

Oddly, pff grades tend to be pretty indicative of most positions, secondary is the only group that they tend to be way off the mark because they don't accurately factor in safety help and blown assignments and zone schemes. They are spot on with OL grades. however I'm not sure how yanda topped the whole league, he didn't play a very good game. Perhaps zuttah did even worse than we though and he covered it up a few times?

[The Raven]

1 hour ago, Ravensfan23 said:

This is exactly why I don't place much stock in grading systems of other people. We just don't see the same game. Some things are obvious to even the untrained eye, but other things are left up to interpretation. I haven't had the time to breakdown the oline from this game, but just from the initial watch, if Yanda was the highest rated OG in week 1 then the rest of the NFL sucked, but he didn't play great at all.

@Filmstudy

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Oddly, pff grades tend to be pretty indicative of most positions, secondary is the only group that they tend to be way off the mark because they don't accurately factor in safety help and blown assignments and zone schemes. They are spot on with OL grades. however I'm not sure how yanda topped the whole league, he didn't play a very good game. Perhaps zuttah did even worse than we though and he covered it up a few times?

I follow a bunch of OL coaches and scouts on Twitter, and the consensus I see is that the OL talent level as a whole is down. That could be part of it.

I agree that PFF is spot on with OL grades, typically. I think they do grade things differently from Filmstudy. I probably see thing differently too. I think Yanda had a fairly poor game in pass protection but was probably our best run blocker. So I weigh that into my evaluation.

I also think the holding call was BS. His hands were inside the shoulder pads and he wasn't just grabbing cloth.

[Filmstudy]

6 hours ago, The Raven said:

@Filmstudy

I follow a bunch of OL coaches and scouts on Twitter, and the consensus I see is that the OL talent level as a whole is down. That could be part of it.

I agree that PFF is spot on with OL grades, typically. I think they do grade things differently from Filmstudy. I probably see thing differently too. I think Yanda had a fairly poor game in pass protection but was probably our best run blocker. So I weigh that into my evaluation.

I also think the holding call was BS. His hands were inside the shoulder pads and he wasn't just grabbing cloth.

I thought the holding call was ticky tack, but he was trying to hold and drew a quick flag.  You can tell from his body language that he knew it, no dispute.

I want to say for the record I highly endorse PFF.  They have a terrific product and they have greatly shortened the amount of time it takes to recognize outstanding offensive line play with the relativity metrics they offer.

I'd say 95% of the time PFF and I (broadly) agree on grading, but we have definitional differences:

1)  I put more weight on pass blocking, since those plays have significantly more leverage (impact on win/loss probability).  The worst score you can get for a run block is -2, but it's -6 for a sack allowed.  PFF scores a -2 to +2 for each play, but keeps separate pass and run blocking scores, which is good.  That breaks down when combining into a single score.

2)  I divide out all events to fractional responsibility.  So if there was 1 sack allowed, I can give 2 players 1/6 and 1 player 2/3, but the fractions have to sum to 1.  Unless they have changed their methods in the last 2 seasons, PFF will charge 2 players with a full sack allowed on the same play.  Both systems have their merits and I'll often reference that when 2 tackles on opposite sides allow their assignments to reach the QB simultaneously.

3)  I charge a lineman for a batted pass by his assignment.  Some of those can be avoided by keeping the opponent engaged, so I think it's the better method.  PFF doesn't charge a lineman for that.

4)  PFF is more lenient with proximity pressure, but I'm tight when a lineman stays square with his assignment, but gets backed up into the area the QB needs to step into his throw.  Over the years, I've been in contact with the PFF folks 1-2 times per season and they are absolutely great about taking the time to respond to reasoning for scoring on plays.  These proximity pressures are usually a component of differences.

5)  My charges for penalties are, effectively, higher than theirs.  I charge -3 for every 5 yards, which means a single holding call will drop a tackle a full grade level and a center by about 1.5 grade levels.  I've been thinking about reducing the charge for penalties to -2 per 5 yards, which would mean a hold is -4 relative to -6 for a sack (seems more reasonable), but have not done so yet.   Because PFF uses a cumulative scoring system, it's more difficult to see the impact of penalties and there is a quote in the "best players at each position" article that minimizes the importance of Yanda's 2 fouls Sunday.

The other game I can recall where PFF and I had a big difference was Osemele's first game at guard vs. the Colts in the 2012 WC game.  He had an outstanding set of run blocks in that game for which I gave extra credit and it was one of only 3 A+ grades I gave all season (requires adjusted 1.00 points/play).  When I originally looked at PFF's scoring they had him scored negatively.

In the case of the Ravens, I think it's both fun and useful to make your own judgments about the players on a block-by-block basis.  But even if you have the time to do that, there is no substitute for the relativity framework offered by PFF for the rest of the league.

[sibelius]

After one game I think it's safe to say Yanda is washed up. Honestly, after four games I think we should slot Waller in at RG because reasons. 

[Filmstudy]

4 minutes ago, sibelius said:

After one game I think it's safe to say Yanda is washed up. Honestly, after four games I think we should slot Waller in at RG because reasons. 

LOL.

Now you're talking.  The Ravens can't wait for Boyle to come back in week 11 or it could have been his opportunity.

[hen826957]

17 minutes ago, sibelius said:

After one game I think it's safe to say Yanda is washed up. Honestly, after four games I think we should slot Waller in at RG because reasons. 

Dude, are you serious? "Yanda is washed up" "We should slot Waller in at RG" LOL. Thanks for the laughs. ?

[JoeyFlex5]

4 hours ago, sibelius said:

After one game I think it's safe to say Yanda is washed up. Honestly, after four games I think we should slot Waller in at RG because reasons. 

Buck Allen should've been activated to play RG honestly. we don't even have to wait for wallers return we have the talent right there the coaches just don't see it.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

15 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Oddly, pff grades tend to be pretty indicative of most positions, secondary is the only group that they tend to be way off the mark because they don't accurately factor in safety help and blown assignments and zone schemes. They are spot on with OL grades. however I'm not sure how yanda topped the whole league, he didn't play a very good game. Perhaps zuttah did even worse than we though and he covered it up a few times?

Well, i think therein lies the issue with really any "objective" grading system. Without knowing what was supposed to happen, you cant really know how well each player performs.

You ask a good question that drives at the heart of the issue... some could look at the performance and say, man, Yanda had an off day for him. Someone else may look at it and feel there was evidence or cues that, really, Yanda played great bc not only did he do his job, but there were even times he helped compensate for how poorly Zuttah was playing... and it was on those plays that he looked bad bc it wasnt that Yanda missed a block, he attempted to also block a guy Zuttah missed and just couldnt react in time, so the attempt missed.

Or, could it even be that Zuttah didnt really play all that bad (he did), its just he had a ton more thrown on his plate bc he had to take on a lot of what was taken off of Lewis' and Stanley's plate. Maybe on "that one play" (any theoretical play) Zuttah was supposed to help with Yanda's man, and Lewis was supposed to block the man to his right; but Zuttah notices that Lewis blocks to his left and attempts to recover to make up for Lewis' blown assignment but misses. In doing that, he couldnt hold the combo block long enough with Yanda, and yada yada yada. Both Zuttah and Yanda look like they had a bad play, but the issue was really a miscue by Lewis.

 

Unfortunately, without being in the offensive meeting room after the game and reviewing the film, it's darn near impossible for an outside source to really account for that in their grading. You can only grade or evaluate what you see, what actually happened, and what the actual result was... and there will always be inaccuracies bc of it.

And i think that has a lot to do with why there are sometimes vast difference between how the team, coaches, scouts and FO can view a player compared to how fans/media view him.

Edited September 15, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[rmw10]

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Well, i think therein lies the issue with really any "objective" grading system. Without knowing what was supposed to happen, you cant really know how well each player performs.

You ask a good question that drives at the heart of the issue... some could look at the performance and say, man, Yanda had an off day for him. Someone else may look at it and feel there was evidence or cues that, really, Yanda played great bc not only did he do his job, but there were even times he helped compensate for how poorly Zuttah was playing... and it was on those plays that he looked bad bc it wasnt that Yanda missed a block, he attempted to also block a guy Zuttah missed and just couldnt react in time, so the attempt missed.

Or, could it even be that Zuttah didnt really play all that bad (he did), its just he had a ton more thrown on his plate bc he had to take on a lot of what was taken off of Lewis' and Stanley's plate. Maybe on "that one play" (any theoretical play) Zuttah was supposed to help with Yanda's man, and Lewis was supposed to block the man to his right; but Zuttah notices that Lewis blocks to his left and attempts to recover to make up for Lewis' blown assignment but misses. In doing that, he couldnt hold the combo block long enough with Yanda, and yada yada yada. Both Zuttah and Yanda look like they had a bad play, but the issue was really a miscue by Lewis.

 

Unfortunately, without being in the offensive meeting room after the game and reviewing the film, it's darn near impossible for an outside source to really account for that in their grading. You can only grade or evaluate what you see, what actually happened, and what the actual result was... and there will always be inaccuracies bc of it.

And i think that has a lot to do with why there are sometimes vast difference between how the team, coaches, scouts and FO can view a player compared to how fans/media view him.

It's definitely hard to say.  I've always found them to be pretty spot on in regards to OL, but like you said, different people grade in different ways.  While I love their OL grades, as Joey said, I think they are awful at the secondary.  I'm still shocked Will Hill didn't catch more slack for how many times he got caught looking in the backfield or was late providing help over the top, but that's where PFF faltered in that he didn't get knocked for that because he wasn't the person solely responsible for the coverage.

To get back on topic though, I think what Filmstudy described and what PFF described shows how different two opinions could be.  To the naked eye watching the game live, I thought Yanda wasn't his typical self, but wasn't bad by any means.  That's where you have to wonder what PFF saw to anoint him the best.  That's not saying that they're wrong, but definitely shows how there is no foolproof way of telling who is right.