Front Office Discussion

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

 

6 hours ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

I disagreed with letting Boldin, then Torrey go. It takes time to develop chemistry and getting on the same page qb/receiver. The Flacco/Boldin combo was virtually unstoppable, and to try and recreate that takes time. 7.5 mil I believe it would have cost us for 2 years. Worth every penny. You take weapons away from your Qb, and you get what you get. Then, your plan was to stick a new Perriman and dump Torrey? Fail.Even if Perriman would have started last year, each is still learning the other, trust has to be developed. You do that while you have guys, not starting from scratch.  Torrey was worth keeping. Imho, in both cases, we cheaped out, and in both cases it bit us in the butt, and set us back 2 years. Yeah, we got SSS, but no matter who you get, chemistry has to develop, it takes time. Tell me who we got with the savings? Anybody to replace the TD production? Nope, we tried though. I like keeping home grown good Ravens too. 

 

3 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Boldin had 1 year remaining, and he likely wanted more than we were willing to give after that, so it would've been a 1 year rental for no real reason and with the following year going nowhere it proved to be a good move. 

Torrey Smith is a generally bad receiver who overachieved big time with a qb who played to his strengths. His inability to track, attack, or even attempt to catch a ball had bit us one too many times. He is not worth anything remotely close to what we offered him and he turned down.

We have another situation where you are both wrong. Congrats. Flacco and Boldin was not unstoppable. It was hard to stop but Boldin dissapeared during the regular season at times because he couldn't get seperation. It is what it is. Letting go of him made sense financially.  Torrey was not worth #1 WR money. No thanks. Didn't have the hands. Not a #1. 

 

Joey, Torrey was not a bad WR. Even I'll admit to that and I'm not his biggest fan. I will argue that Torrey is the best pure deep threat in the NFL, and a damn good #2. He'd do good with any accurate QB with a big arm(which Kaepernick is not lol). Torrey Smith makes you respect his speed and doesn't even have to catch the ball to be deemed a threat. 

 

As much as I hate making general assumptions like this, Torrey's job was to run in a straight line as fast as he could. Perriman is already bigger, and faster, which already makes him the same threat, and has better hands as he.. You know.. ACTUALLY CATCHES THE FREAKING BALL WITH HIS HANDS. Perriman was more than a logical replacement, he's potentially better. Torrey has made 0.. And I mean 0 improvement since he's been in the league. 

 

But he's not bad. Torrey came into the league an awesome deep threat and has remained that way. He's on a crappy team, but he's getting paid 8 million a season. He can't really complain. 

 

Getting rid of Boldin and Torrey was inevitable. Especially Boldin who's older. 

[JoeyFlex5]

He's a bad receiver because a receivers primary job is to catch the ball and he sucks at that. He was a fit here, he had a strong armed qb who put hangtime on it for him to run under it, but if he was more than average he wouldn't need these handicaps that allows for dbs to close the gap and he would track and catch the ball instead of constantly settling for the PI. He didn't lead the league in drawn PIs repeatedly by accident, he did it on purpose and you could tell, and it was a crutch to make up for his inability to track and catch it deep. Id rather take the td than take the PI and watch the drive stall in the red zone which has happened far too often. Also if he was a good receiver he would've attempted to toe tap on touchdowns, he didn't even bother to, so many times he catches a wide open touchdown and longstrides out the back of the end zone with no effort to get in bounds. 

Arguably the best deep threat? He may be in the conversation for top 10 or so, and he may have looked like one of the best here in baltimore, but he's been exposed with a less than perfect for his skillset qb. Desean Jackson, John brown, martavis bryant, ty Hilton, Kenny stills, and I could name plenty more but these are just off the top of my head. Some of these guys are a whole tier above torrey and some others are 2 or 3 tiers above him. He's far from the best deep threat in the league and he never will be because he lacks so many of the small things that you need to be considered more than mediocre.

[trevorsteadman]

20 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

He's a bad receiver because a receivers primary job is to catch the ball and he sucks at that. He was a fit here, he had a strong armed qb who put hangtime on it for him to run under it, but if he was more than average he wouldn't need these handicaps that allows for dbs to close the gap and he would track and catch the ball instead of constantly settling for the PI. He didn't lead the league in drawn PIs repeatedly by accident, he did it on purpose and you could tell, and it was a crutch to make up for his inability to track and catch it deep. Id rather take the td than take the PI and watch the drive stall in the red zone which has happened far too often. Also if he was a good receiver he would've attempted to toe tap on touchdowns, he didn't even bother to, so many times he catches a wide open touchdown and longstrides out the back of the end zone with no effort to get in bounds. 

Arguably the best deep threat? He may be in the conversation for top 10 or so, and he may have looked like one of the best here in baltimore, but he's been exposed with a less than perfect for his skillset qb. Desean Jackson, John brown, martavis bryant, ty Hilton, Kenny stills, and I could name plenty more but these are just off the top of my head. Some of these guys are a whole tier above torrey and some others are 2 or 3 tiers above him. He's far from the best deep threat in the league and he never will be because he lacks so many of the small things that you need to be considered more than mediocre.

He has speed? Lol best deep threat I would say is Julio Jones by far and he may be the best receiver in the league. Even though he does everything his roots are as a deep threat lol

[JoeyFlex5]

9 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

He has speed? Lol best deep threat I would say is Julio Jones by far and he may be the best receiver in the league. Even though he does everything his roots are as a deep threat lol

Stephen hill had speed. Tommy streeter had speed. Plenty of guys have speed and are still bad receivers. 

I was pointing out the guys who are considered deep threats rather than true #1 receivers. If you wanna name those guys then you can find a guy better than torrey on nearly every team lol

[BmoreBird22]

8 hours ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

Joey, Torrey was not a bad WR. Even I'll admit to that and I'm not his biggest fan. I will argue that Torrey is the best pure deep threat in the NFL, and a damn good #2. He'd do good with any accurate QB with a big arm(which Kaepernick is not lol). Torrey Smith makes you respect his speed and doesn't even have to catch the ball to be deemed a threat. 

Currently, I'd take Martavis Bryant (minus the suspensions) over Torrey and when Torrey was here in Baltimore, I'd have taken VJax over him in that regard.

Edited September 9, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[trevorsteadman]

15 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Stephen hill had speed. Tommy streeter had speed. Plenty of guys have speed and are still bad receivers. 

I was pointing out the guys who are considered deep threats rather than true #1 receivers. If you wanna name those guys then you can find a guy better than torrey on nearly every team lol

This is true but Julio came in as a deep theat and then turned into everything you ever wanted. If we are going just by receivers that are known to be a one trick pony there are a lot of them as well. I think I would take Mike Wallace over Torrey Smith to be honest. I really have faith in the guy. Does not help your stock when you are a speedster and go to two teams that have not effectively stretched the field in years.

[JoeyFlex5]

1 minute ago, trevorsteadman said:

This is true but Julio came in as a deep theat and then turned into everything you ever wanted. If we are going just by receivers that are known to be a one trick pony there are a lot of them as well. I think I would take Mike Wallace over Torrey Smith to be honest. I really have faith in the guy. Does not help your stock when you are a speedster and go to two teams that have not effectively stretched the field in years.

About Wallace, I know that as well as anyone, but he still has to prove he's still got it.

[trevorsteadman]

1 minute ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

About Wallace, I know that as well as anyone, but he still has to prove he's still got it.

I have to agree but if any time was for him to break out it would be now when your quarterback has popeye's right arm.

[Sami84]

14 hours ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

I

 

 

really having an issue with this format and the quoteing aspect of this message board. anyway...the funny thing is we were all hoping that torrey could be a better version of himself..and thats mike wallace.

[trevorsteadman]

3 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

really having an issue with this format and the quoteing aspect of this message board. anyway...the funny thing is we were all hoping that torrey could be a better version of himself..and thats mike wallace.

Like @JoeyFlex5 said... We still don't know but the preseason was promising when he was attacking the ball. Something Smith never did here. I'm sure he has lost some speed over the years but I think Perriman and Moore can help in that department.

[JoeyFlex5]

5 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

Like @JoeyFlex5 said... We still don't know but the preseason was promising when he was attacking the ball. Something Smith never did here. I'm sure he has lost some speed over the years but I think Perriman and Moore can help in that department.

I'll bet Wallace is still faster than Moore. Moore has decent speed, but he couldn't be a deep threat based on speed alone. He is basically the anti torrey, slightly lesser measurables and the 40 is About a whole tenth slower, but his tracking, catching, gear usage, footwork, attacking, i mean literally he does everything better except for run in a straight line really fast. Perriman is the same way except his measurable are all better as well.

It remains to be seen whether they'll produce or not, but the outlook is good.

[Sami84]

8 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

Like @JoeyFlex5 said... We still don't know but the preseason was promising when he was attacking the ball. Something Smith never did here. I'm sure he has lost some speed over the years but I think Perriman and Moore can help in that department.

 

 

well hes only just turned 30. Taking into account how fast he was...fastest in the league in his early mid 20's,he should still be faster than most WR's in the league. 

Edited September 9, 2016 by Sami84

[jdynamite]

I think the one gripe for me with FO is usually a positive in most cases,  it just hasn't worked out for us all the time. That gripe is the reluctancy to move on from assistant coaches in a timely manner.  

Now I understand teams want to keep coaching staffs together build chemistry and have the same system for years.   But the team held on to Cam Cameron way too long, the offense and Flacco was handcuffed and hindered.  Since Cam the OCs Caldwell and Kubiak left for HC jobs so that couldn't be prevented. 

The same as DC changes couldn't be avoided with Rex, then Mattison ( was so glad ), then Pagano-HC.  

With Pees i gave him the benefit of the doubt hey Ray and Ed departed not the same knowledge on the field.  Defense has given up so many 4th quarter leads under him.  Sometimes it's blatantly obvious we going all out blitz, rather than creative blitzes. Even when the team was top ranked in sacks a few years ago, the defense wasn't intimidating, suffocating, or consistent.  

[Sami84]

could have had dez or gronk in 2010. Instead we had kindle and cody. I was furious. I was never a fan of kindle and cody was just another oz alabama obsession. We could have traded up for dez or taken gronk who i saw as the best TE prospect in years. I couldnt believe gresham was picked before him.

[trevorsteadman]

5 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

could have had dez or gronk in 2010. Instead we had kindle and cody. I was furious. I was never a fan of kindle and cody was just another oz alabama obsession. We could have traded up for dez or taken gronk who i saw as the best TE prospect in years. I couldnt believe gresham was picked before him.

Hindsight is 20/20.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

2 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

Hindsight is 20/20.

That speaks to our mantra, best player available though, and lack of player or talent evaluation, and that was a big fail from the FO, its almost like we just wanted picks, didnt matter who we took

[Purple_City39]

8 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

could have had dez or gronk in 2010. Instead we had kindle and cody. I was furious. I was never a fan of kindle and cody was just another oz alabama obsession. We could have traded up for dez or taken gronk who i saw as the best TE prospect in years. I couldnt believe gresham was picked before him.

Dez went 1 pick before the Ravens because the Pats traded with Dallas at the last second.  We'd have likely taken Dez since New England wouldn't have.  Gronk is pure hindsight because his injury issues (if I recall correctly) is why he wasn't considered a first rounder and he was gone before the 2nd round pick

[Tiznut]

9 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

could have had dez or gronk in 2010. Instead we had kindle and cody. I was furious. I was never a fan of kindle and cody was just another oz alabama obsession. We could have traded up for dez or taken gronk who i saw as the best TE prospect in years. I couldnt believe gresham was picked before him.

If you revisit the draft. We traded back AFTER Dallas took Dez. It wasn't a decision to take kindle instead of Dez being that Dallas picked before us and once picked that's when we traded back. 

[JoeyFlex5]

15 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

could have had dez or gronk in 2010. Instead we had kindle and cody. I was furious. I was never a fan of kindle and cody was just another oz alabama obsession. We could have traded up for dez or taken gronk who i saw as the best TE prospect in years. I couldnt believe gresham was picked before him.

Cowboys traded ahead of us for dez.Gronk had very real injury concerns being a young guy coming off of a back surgery, without those injury concerns he's probably a top 20 pick.

[Sami84]

Just now, JoeyFlex5 said:

Cowboys traded ahead of us for dez.Gronk had very real injury concerns being a young guy coming off of a back surgery, without those injury concerns he's probably a top 20 pick.

 

if we drafted gronk..

3 more superbowls..

[rmcjacket23]

3 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

if we drafted gronk..

3 more superbowls..

Yeah, that's not how football works.

[Sami84]

49 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Yeah, that's not how football works.

yes and no.

in this case the 2010 draft held us back...and it started to show later on..

[rmcjacket23]

3 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

yes and no.

in this case the 2010 draft held us back...and it started to show later on..

Cool. We wouldn't win three more SBs with Gronk. It would be a stretch to say we win even ONE more.

[Tiznut]

1 hour ago, Sami84 said:

if we drafted gronk..

3 more superbowls..

Lol.  

[Sami84]

2 minutes ago, Tiznut said:

Lol.  

im dead serious

[Sami84]

19 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Cool. We wouldn't win three more SBs with Gronk. It would be a stretch to say we win even ONE more.

2011- yup

2012- would have done it with less drama

2013- would have made the playoffs

2014 -yes

2015-no

 

so i'll give us 2 more

Edited September 9, 2016 by Sami84

[Tiznut]

44 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

im dead serious

Which makes it that much more laughable 

[rmcjacket23]

37 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

2011- yup

2012- would have done it with less drama

2013- would have made the playoffs

2014 -yes

2015-no

 

so i'll give us 2 more

LOL, not even close.

I'll give you a hint... you've got to drop MULTIPLE really good players off those teams in order for Gronk to be on this team. You are aware he doesn't play for free right?

Ain't fantasyland bud. 

[January J]

51 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

2011- yup

2012- would have done it with less drama

2013- would have made the playoffs

2014 -yes

2015-no

 

so i'll give us 2 more

2014 maybe- BC if he was on our team he wouldn't have been on the pats squad that barely beat us. And he probably would've caught that TD pass that Owen Daniels dropped. But hypotheticals are quite silly, BC any number of things would also pan out differently.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

4 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

He's a bad receiver because a receivers primary job is to catch the ball and he sucks at that. He was a fit here, he had a strong armed qb who put hangtime on it for him to run under it, but if he was more than average he wouldn't need these handicaps that allows for dbs to close the gap and he would track and catch the ball instead of constantly settling for the PI. He didn't lead the league in drawn PIs repeatedly by accident, he did it on purpose and you could tell, and it was a crutch to make up for his inability to track and catch it deep. Id rather take the td than take the PI and watch the drive stall in the red zone which has happened far too often. Also if he was a good receiver he would've attempted to toe tap on touchdowns, he didn't even bother to, so many times he catches a wide open touchdown and longstrides out the back of the end zone with no effort to get in bounds. 

Arguably the best deep threat? He may be in the conversation for top 10 or so, and he may have looked like one of the best here in baltimore, but he's been exposed with a less than perfect for his skillset qb. Desean Jackson, John brown, martavis bryant, ty Hilton, Kenny stills, and I could name plenty more but these are just off the top of my head. Some of these guys are a whole tier above torrey and some others are 2 or 3 tiers above him. He's far from the best deep threat in the league and he never will be because he lacks so many of the small things that you need to be considered more than mediocre.

Torrey smith showed up for too many big games to be considered a bad wr. But it's okay. Vs Denver in the playoff game to prove Champ Bailey was old? First career start(not the first games vs that season) vs Pit? Vs the Patriots his rookie year? Vs patriots after his brother died? He made a clutch catch vs San Diego the 4th and 29 game. Say what you want about his hands, he found ways to make plays when it counted... With the exception of his last season here. But even then you could argue flaccos decision to throw it to him in the end zone was a terrible one. The patriots were getting destroyed on the short pass. There was plenty of time to keep doing that. And then he got greedy.

 

Torrey Smith wasn't a bad receiver. I wouldn't take the guy over Breshad, as Breshad has far more potential, but Torrey is a great deep threat, who's made big plays in the past. I can't discount what he's done here.