Front Office Discussion

[JoeyFlex5]

Well I didn't love the Ray rice signing. I'm ok with drafting a rb high but im not ok with tying up that much money in one, very rarely is an rb worth that much and even rarer that they live up to it for the duration. 

Ngata was a beast at the time, but there was always questions about his commitment and we see where that landed. It would've been hard to question that deal at the time but there would've been some rationale to do so. 

The pitta contract was just obnoxious. A reckless move. 

Trading boldin was something to goes so underappreciated. It was a smart and ballsy move that had to be done, I just wish we could've done that with rice and pitta also. Letting torrey walk also was smart. If he accepted our contract it wouldn't have been the best move for our future.

[ellicottraven]

8 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Well I didn't love the Ray rice signing. I'm ok with drafting a rb high but im not ok with tying up that much money in one, very rarely is an rb worth that much and even rarer that they live up to it for the duration. 

Ngata was a beast at the time, but there was always questions about his commitment and we see where that landed. It would've been hard to question that deal at the time but there would've been some rationale to do so. 

The pitta contract was just obnoxious. A reckless move. 

Trading boldin was something to goes so underappreciated. It was a smart and ballsy move that had to be done, I just wish we could've done that with rice and pitta also. Letting torrey walk also was smart. If he accepted our contract it wouldn't have been the best move for our future.

The Pitta contract was mind numbing to put it mildly. But, then again I'm sure they consulted team doctors extensively prior to the contract but still they could've added some injury contingencies specific to the hip at the very least. 

[rmcjacket23]

On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 0:58 PM, JoeyFlex5 said:

Well I didn't love the Ray rice signing. I'm ok with drafting a rb high but im not ok with tying up that much money in one, very rarely is an rb worth that much and even rarer that they live up to it for the duration. 

Ngata was a beast at the time, but there was always questions about his commitment and we see where that landed. It would've been hard to question that deal at the time but there would've been some rationale to do so. 

The pitta contract was just obnoxious. A reckless move. 

Trading boldin was something to goes so underappreciated. It was a smart and ballsy move that had to be done, I just wish we could've done that with rice and pitta also. Letting torrey walk also was smart. If he accepted our contract it wouldn't have been the best move for our future.

The thing with Rice is that, like I referenced earlier, there wouldn't have been many who would have been impressed by the FO telling Rice to walk after five years. I agree that RBs are devalued and all of the stereotypes that come with it, but at the end of the day, its not very common for a franchise to tell a guy who basically was your offense the prior year to take a hike. He was coming off a year where he had almost 2,100 yards and 15 TDs.

Sure, a FO COULD make a decision to not resign a player like that. I'd say generally, league-wide, pretty much every FO is going to resign a player coming off season like that, especially when he had similar seasons prior to that (1,800 yards in 2010, about 2,100 in 2009).

I can assure that you far, far, far more would have been posting comments along the lines of "Ozzie is a moron" if we had let Ray Rice go after 2011 than people who bash the contract now.

Pretty much all comes back to hindsight analysis.

[usmccharles]

I was more than ok with the Rice signing.  He was the most important part of our offense for some time.  If we would of game him 12mill a year then yea, that's a bit much, but he was extremely important here.  But its easy for fans now to say how bad of a signing it was considering all that's happened.

[Deflated Football]

12 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

I was more than ok with the Rice signing.  He was the most important part of our offense for some time.  If we would of game him 12mill a year then yea, that's a bit much, but he was extremely important here.  But its easy for fans now to say how bad of a signing it was considering all that's happened.

Yea, hindsight is 20/20, especially around here. I had no problem with the contract. He was a ridiculously important part of our offense and a top three back in his prime, plus a safety outlet for a young Flacco. I still think it's extremely important to have "that guy" who does all the work in the run game, complimented by a rotation full of various attributes. Don't know who that workhorse will be for us this season though. Hope it's KD when he comes back, or West for the time being. 

[Sami84]

dont have to go JJ watt as a measuring stick. AS of this moment, outside of yanda we don't have a top 5 or even 8 player in any position ( not including wolfpack). If we had a sheldon richardson or a chris harris Jr etc.. the truth is we pay for guys that either have had 1 good year or are simply solid and consistant rather than truely elite. 

[usmccharles]

4 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

dont have to go JJ watt as a measuring stick. AS of this moment, outside of yanda we don't have a top 5 or even 8 player in any position ( not including wolfpack). If we had a sheldon richardson or a chris harris Jr etc.. the truth is we pay for guys that either have had 1 good year or are simply solid and consistant rather than truely elite. 

I hear this guy named Brandon Williams might be ok...

[rmcjacket23]

12 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

dont have to go JJ watt as a measuring stick. AS of this moment, outside of yanda we don't have a top 5 or even 8 player in any position ( not including wolfpack). If we had a sheldon richardson or a chris harris Jr etc.. the truth is we pay for guys that either have had 1 good year or are simply solid and consistant rather than truely elite. 

Sort of. 

Paying for solid and consistent would be a smart move, because there aren't enough truly elite players in the league for us to have or even retain like 5 of them. Most teams are lucky to have 1.

As for paying for guys who had 1 good year, that's sort of a myth. The only guy that really comes to mind is Jimmy. Guys like Ngata, Rice, Pitta, etc. certainly weren't paid based on one great season.

If we simply paid for guys that had 1 great season, then guys like McPhee, Kruger, Ellerbe, etc. would still be Ravens.

Edited September 8, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[JoeyFlex5]

I was ok with the rice signing at the time, but if you can dig back that far I had posted in here that I was very weary of it due to his mileage and the history of high mileage runningbacks. I said there was a good chance that while it was good for the short term that it had a high risk of hurting us in the long term... Maybe not those exact words but along those lines lol

[Sami84]

34 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

I hear this guy named Brandon Williams might be ok...

he's not a difference maker..i hate to sound degrading but unless he shows hes a two dimensional player you can find very good run stuffing nose tackles in this league.

[rmcjacket23]

On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 2:31 PM, Sami84 said:

he's not a difference maker..i hate to sound degrading but unless he shows hes a two dimensional player you can find very good run stuffing nose tackles in this league.

Well, sort of. I think that was true a few years ago, but 3-4 run stopping NTs aren't exactly being bred in college these days, so finding another one like him will be very difficult. It lowers their price tag a bit, but I'm not sure that price is really a concern at this point, given our cap space strength.

The issue, as is always the case, is when we don't resign him and then our run defense struggles or regresses. That will be blamed solely on the FO not retaining Brandon Williams.

 

[berad]

I would consider Yanda, Weddle, and Williams solidly top 5-8 players in the league. If Suggs rebounds he's a top 5-8 edge defender and if Mosley continues to progress he will be a top 5-8 middle linebacker. Flacco is right on that cusp as well.

Not sure how many guys Denver had in that category last season...

[Sami84]

22 minutes ago, berad said:

I would consider Yanda, Weddle, and Williams solidly top 5-8 players in the league. If Suggs rebounds he's a top 5-8 edge defender and if Mosley continues to progress he will be a top 5-8 middle linebacker. Flacco is right on that cusp as well.

Not sure how many guys Denver had in that category last season...

 

oh dont get me wrong..if we are getting weddle of 2010-2014 ..yeah for sure. Williams might be..but its not an impactful position like say having an adrian peterson or a jj watt or a dez bryant..

 

who knows.maybe we unearth some players this year..it needs to happen or we are done..myles garrett please..lol..i think this is the only guy in years where i'd trade my whole draft for him.

[usmccharles]

1 hour ago, Sami84 said:

he's not a difference maker..i hate to sound degrading but unless he shows hes a two dimensional player you can find very good run stuffing nose tackles in this league.

You break things down very well sometimes, but other times your negativity makes it look like you have no clue what your talking about. 

[BmoreBird22]

22 hours ago, Tru11 said:

its funny that you mention those teams lol.

pees likes to rush 4 with dropping 7 in coverages with mostly it being zone.

its pretty much what the panthers and the hawks do.

difference is that they have way better players then the ravens.

broncos also pretty much rely on a 4 man rush but they have the lbers and especially CBs to hold up in man cov.

they to have much more talent then the ravens.

The Hawks run a Cover 3 scheme and the Panthers run the Tampa 2.

I'd love for the Ravens to run either scheme (especially the Tampa 2), but like you said, they just don't have the personnel for it. I think had they drafted Myles Jack (and Kendall Fuller just to be an extra add on) that they'd have had the perfect set up for the Tampa 2 (and Frazier and Cullen being added to the staff), but that turned out false.

I truly think Pees wants to play in a Cover 3, but I'm not sure I trust any corner outside of Jimmy to consistently be able to press and carry his man down the sidelines. I'm also skeptical of whether or not Webb could actually be that deep safety because I think Weddle is the perfect rover for the Cover 3. 

I don't know how true this has been in Baltimore, but Pees number one coverage in NE was Quarters, but he also ran 37 different coverages on the season. 

With the Hawks, they run mostly Cover 3 and 1, don't see them mix it up too much. The Tampa 2 has it's own variances, but the Panthers keep it fairly simple. I'd imagine Pees would love to keep it that simple and not add too much on the plate of defenders, but like you said, talent.

Oh, and one thing I wanna throw out about those defenses is that they are designed to take away the deep throws and force underneath throws. They are bend but don't break defenses, especially the Tampa 2. They just require the defenders to swarm to the ball, which is something we saw more of in the preseason at times, so hopefully it's a sign of what's to come.

Edited September 8, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[BmoreBird22]

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Guys like Ngata, Rice, Pitta, etc. certainly weren't paid based on one great season.

Gonna be honest; I don't even think Pitta had one great season. I think he had one good season and that's really it. I think he got vastly overpaid.

A lot of these contracts are a projection on future return. I'm certain the Ravens wanted McPhee back (he was their most productive pass rusher), but those knees.

 

Edited September 8, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Gonna be honest; I don't even think Pitta had one great season. I think he had one good season and that's really it. I think he got vastly overpaid.

 

I think everybody agrees on the overpaid part.

But realistically, his 2011 and 2012 seasons were about the same... just with increased volume in 2012. Went from 56 targets in 2011 to 93 in 2012, so basically he was the same player just with more balls thrown his way and thus more opportunities to make plays. Even in 2013, when he only played four games, he had 33 targets and 20 catches. Would put him on pace for about 80 catches on over 130 targets, which is up there in the Boldin/Torrey Smith territory in terms of usage. Granted, it didn't work out that way from the injury, but that's the rate he was heading towards.

So while the numbers overall weren't great from a totality standpoint, you could argue (and I suppose this is what the Ravens would argue) that its a product of usage. 

So you've got a player with obvious increased usage taking over for somebody like Boldin, who just left town. As a FO personnel member, this is how I would justify that contract.

[Sami84]

as of right now i'd change the 2nd and 3rd pick to

 

2:Javon Hargrave/Mackenzie Alexander

3: Joe thuney 

If we did this it would be the perfect draft IMHO

 

btw look out for carl nassib who has been a one man wrecking crew for the browns this preseason.  its clear the browns are working with PFF. their entire draft seems to have been based on PFF.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Sami84

[Tru11]

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

The Hawks run a Cover 3 scheme and the Panthers run the Tampa 2.

I'd love for the Ravens to run either scheme (especially the Tampa 2), but like you said, they just don't have the personnel for it. I think had they drafted Myles Jack (and Kendall Fuller just to be an extra add on) that they'd have had the perfect set up for the Tampa 2 (and Frazier and Cullen being added to the staff), but that turned out false.

I truly think Pees wants to play in a Cover 3, but I'm not sure I trust any corner outside of Jimmy to consistently be able to press and carry his man down the sidelines. I'm also skeptical of whether or not Webb could actually be that deep safety because I think Weddle is the perfect rover for the Cover 3. 

I don't know how true this has been in Baltimore, but Pees number one coverage in NE was Quarters, but he also ran 37 different coverages on the season. 

With the Hawks, they run mostly Cover 3 and 1, don't see them mix it up too much. The Tampa 2 has it's own variances, but the Panthers keep it fairly simple. I'd imagine Pees would love to keep it that simple and not add too much on the plate of defenders, but like you said, talent.

Oh, and one thing I wanna throw out about those defenses is that they are designed to take away the deep throws and force underneath throws. They are bend but don't break defenses, especially the Tampa 2. They just require the defenders to swarm to the ball, which is something we saw more of in the preseason at times, so hopefully it's a sign of what's to come.

yup.

our defense and play calling is pretty similar to those teams.

the biggest difference is the talent and our lack of being able to make the first tackle.

Those teams usually have the first guy make the tackle or at least hold the player long enough for the rest of the team to clean up allowing little yac.

We on the other hand seem to whiff on the first tackle and then do make the tackle after they pick up a first down ....

[JoeyFlex5]

3 hours ago, Sami84 said:

he's not a difference maker..i hate to sound degrading but unless he shows hes a two dimensional player you can find very good run stuffing nose tackles in this league.

dont know why this has 5 negs, i feel the same way. run stuffers come a dime a dozen, im not one to jump on a bandwagon after some good preseason performances but michael pierce has looked better than brandon williams looked his rookie year. without a doubt i would take that risk over the risk of giving a fat amount of chunk space to a 2 down defender with a common skillset.

[ellicottraven]

3 hours ago, Sami84 said:

he's not a difference maker..i hate to sound degrading but unless he shows hes a two dimensional player you can find very good run stuffing nose tackles in this league.

At least to this point he hasn't shown he can be a Geno Atkins that is great at penetration. But, maybe this year (contract year) changes all that. Also, with Jernigan and Guy Lawrence beside him and Suggs and Zadarius on the edges, it'll give him more opportunities for one on one battles. However, as a pure nose tackle he is among the best in the league, but I acknowledge your point.

[allblackraven]

2 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

At least to this point he hasn't shown he can be a Geno Atkins that is great at penetration. But, maybe this year (contract year) changes all that. Also, with Jernigan and Guy Lawrence beside him and Suggs and Zadarius on the edges, it'll give him more opportunities for one on one battles. However, as a pure nose tackle he is among the best in the league, but I acknowledge your point.

That part is pretty worrying to me. Lot of cases of players balling out in their contract years, taking a fat cheque and then going back to being less than the amount on that cheque would suggest. 

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

5 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Well I didn't love the Ray rice signing. I'm ok with drafting a rb high but im not ok with tying up that much money in one, very rarely is an rb worth that much and even rarer that they live up to it for the duration. 

Ngata was a beast at the time, but there was always questions about his commitment and we see where that landed. It would've been hard to question that deal at the time but there would've been some rationale to do so. 

The pitta contract was just obnoxious. A reckless move. 

Trading boldin was something to goes so underappreciated. It was a smart and ballsy move that had to be done, I just wish we could've done that with rice and pitta also. Letting torrey walk also was smart. If he accepted our contract it wouldn't have been the best move for our future.

I disagreed with letting Boldin, then Torrey go. It takes time to develop chemistry and getting on the same page qb/receiver. The Flacco/Boldin combo was virtually unstoppable, and to try and recreate that takes time. 7.5 mil I believe it would have cost us for 2 years. Worth every penny. You take weapons away from your Qb, and you get what you get. Then, your plan was to stick a new Perriman and dump Torrey? Fail.Even if Perriman would have started last year, each is still learning the other, trust has to be developed. You do that while you have guys, not starting from scratch.  Torrey was worth keeping. Imho, in both cases, we cheaped out, and in both cases it bit us in the butt, and set us back 2 years. Yeah, we got SSS, but no matter who you get, chemistry has to develop, it takes time. Tell me who we got with the savings? Anybody to replace the TD production? Nope, we tried though. I like keeping home grown good Ravens too. 

[Tiznut]

Torrey wasn't let go. 

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

If I was gonna bottom line the FO, missing on picks, injuries, bad signings, and bad luck has hurt this team.

Some of which has to fall on the scouting department, and player identification, for example why do we constantly try to draft from small schools, when some of the best players in the country have already been identified in high school, and recruited to big time programs. Its almost like we overlook the big schools now, like we are smarter than everybody else. Dont get me wrong,we hit on small school guys from time to time like Judon, but that is an exception, should not be the norm. 

I know we almost never draft a questionable character guy anymore who may be a possible future pro bowler. Would we pass on a Ray Lewis if he was in the 2017 draft? We passed on Burfict, and I think we were dumb not to jump on Miles Jack for injury questions, heck look at Elam and Aurthur Brown, what did they amount to?  even Kafusi is out now. Jack is playing. 

The problem is, sometimes the best players may have some baggage. I would rather try and fix a possible difference maker player, than draft a sub par great guy, because I was worried about stupid stuff. We have a good locker room, take a flyer on an elite player once in awhile, sheesh. Sometimes I think we want a team full of average at best yes men. Try and go after some alpha males in the future, the Dez Bryants of the world, and keep the best home grown Ravens, so we can have a legion of boomers ourselves, not a bandaided up rag tag defense.

 

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

22 minutes ago, Tiznut said:

Torrey wasn't let go. 

The right offer would have kept him here

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

I also think our improved running game will help our defense this year, even if we run-run-pass, at least we are running. Last year we were super pass happy. 

[Tiznut]

36 minutes ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

The right offer would have kept him here

Yeah over pay everyone and they stay 

doesn't change that he was NOT let go and his words were that he needed a change of scenery in his life. 

remember Weddle decided against more $ in order to play here just like Torrey felt he needed a change of scenery. 

[BmoreBird22]

3 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I think everybody agrees on the overpaid part.

But realistically, his 2011 and 2012 seasons were about the same... just with increased volume in 2012. Went from 56 targets in 2011 to 93 in 2012, so basically he was the same player just with more balls thrown his way and thus more opportunities to make plays. Even in 2013, when he only played four games, he had 33 targets and 20 catches. Would put him on pace for about 80 catches on over 130 targets, which is up there in the Boldin/Torrey Smith territory in terms of usage. Granted, it didn't work out that way from the injury, but that's the rate he was heading towards.

So while the numbers overall weren't great from a totality standpoint, you could argue (and I suppose this is what the Ravens would argue) that its a product of usage. 

So you've got a player with obvious increased usage taking over for somebody like Boldin, who just left town. As a FO personnel member, this is how I would justify that contract.

My issue is twofold on this. 

He was always destined to fail to live up to that contract because at the time, it made him the ninth highest paid tight end and was only $1M away in terms of average salary from being the third highest paid tight end. In terms of guaranteed money, he was actually the third highest at the time. Can we really argue he's that good? No, not at all. Also, he's basically a glorified slot receiver and that contract made him the highest paid slot receiver in terms of average salary. 

However, from a production standpoint, his catch percentage dropped three consecutive years with higher usage. I would understand only catching about 60% of his targets if he were a big play threat (like Jimmy Graham, Ladarius Green, etc), but he's averaging about 10 yards per reception, so he's more of a short/intermediate threat. Possibly one of the best in that regard, Jason Witten, was catching around 70%+ for his career. 

So, I don't really like the argument that it was a lack of volume passing to Pitta because it wasn't increasing linearly. It was leveling off and at some point, we were gonna see that Pitta was gonna have a good, but not great season, which didn't bode well for him since he's very much one dimensional. 

[JoeyFlex5]

3 hours ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

I disagreed with letting Boldin, then Torrey go. It takes time to develop chemistry and getting on the same page qb/receiver. The Flacco/Boldin combo was virtually unstoppable, and to try and recreate that takes time. 7.5 mil I believe it would have cost us for 2 years. Worth every penny. You take weapons away from your Qb, and you get what you get. Then, your plan was to stick a new Perriman and dump Torrey? Fail.Even if Perriman would have started last year, each is still learning the other, trust has to be developed. You do that while you have guys, not starting from scratch.  Torrey was worth keeping. Imho, in both cases, we cheaped out, and in both cases it bit us in the butt, and set us back 2 years. Yeah, we got SSS, but no matter who you get, chemistry has to develop, it takes time. Tell me who we got with the savings? Anybody to replace the TD production? Nope, we tried though. I like keeping home grown good Ravens too. 

Boldin had 1 year remaining, and he likely wanted more than we were willing to give after that, so it would've been a 1 year rental for no real reason and with the following year going nowhere it proved to be a good move. 

Torrey Smith is a generally bad receiver who overachieved big time with a qb who played to his strengths. His inability to track, attack, or even attempt to catch a ball had bit us one too many times. He is not worth anything remotely close to what we offered him and he turned down.