Cuts from Other Teams We Might Consider

[berad]

13 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

You all put too much stock into 2 unproven players. I understand encouragement, I am very encouraged by the performances of zds and judon, they've looked good, but As I said, 1 injury and suddenly were desperately lacking enough options, and if one of those 2 young guys aren't as good playing 16 games against starters then we bet our whole pass rush on 2 guys that we should have expected to hit a wall, because rookie walls and sophomore slumps are extremely common. 

Yeah but you don't pull in an aging, expensive, unproductive vet just because you have a vague fear that younger players won't perform. So far, they've looked good so the Ravens are inclined to go with them.

Remember not all veterans are as good as advertised, either.

[rmw10]

1 hour ago, berad said:

Yeah but you don't pull in an aging, expensive, unproductive vet just because you have a vague fear that younger players won't perform. So far, they've looked good so the Ravens are inclined to go with them.

Remember not all veterans are as good as advertised, either.

The push and shove of the NFL.  You always have one side that will say there's not enough experience and it's too risky, and there's always one side that will criticize because the young guys aren't getting time on the field to develop.  No one is really wrong in the situation.  It's all about where the team wants to go.  In the Ravens case, I think they'd much rather see and hope that the young guys will develop.

Edited August 30, 2016 by rmw10

[ellicottraven]

For Kruger to be called upon, 2 things may have to occur. One of our starters needs to go down with a season ending injury and Kruger must be willing to take far less money than he perhaps expects.

[January J]

No to kruger- maybe to browner.

Everybody has been clamoring for another cb and he is probably the best one on the market. Yes he commits a lot of penalties but isnt he a better option than shareece? We can def afford him and I say we bring him in- let him and shareece battle it out  Thursday and see how he does. 

We need to let our younger passrushers do their thing this year. Kruger will just get in the way of that and I don't think he has anything left anyway. He would just be another babin and waste us time and money.

[rmw10]

Just now, January J said:

No to kruger- maybe to browner.

Everybody has been clamoring for another cb and he is probably the best one on the market. Yes he commits a lot of penalties but isnt he a better option than shareece? We can def afford him and I say we bring him in- let him and shareece battle it out  Thursday and see how he does. 

We need to let our younger passrushers do their thing this year. Kruger will just get in the way of that and I don't think he has anything left anyway. He would just be another babin and waste us time and money.

Browner is garbage now.  He's been terrible ever since leaving Seattle.  I have 0 interest in him and I suspect his career might actually be over.  He's the exact opposite of the type of guy Harbaugh would want here with his 4859 penalties per game.

[GrimCoconut]

I really don't think Kruger is a bad idea as some. I don't think it needs to happen but he'll definitely help us. I'm concerned about Suggs and Dumervil. The former is coming of another serious injury and did great in the run but didn't show much as a pass rusher. That said, he may be taking it easy because it's preseason and he's been here before. Dumervil is also coming off his own injury and only recently started to practice. That's your top 2 pass rushers both coming off some type of injury.  

The team will make whatever decision is didn't since they see these guys in practice and know more than we do. I wouldn't fault them either way they go. 

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I really don't think Kruger is a bad idea as some. I don't think it needs to happen but he'll definitely help us. I'm concerned about Suggs and Dumervil. The former is coming of another serious injury and did great in the run but didn't show much as a pass rusher. That said, he may be taking it easy because it's preseason and he's been here before. Dumervil is also coming off his own injury and only recently started to practice. That's your top 2 pass rushers both coming off some type of injury.  

The team will make whatever decision is didn't since they see these guys in practice and know more than we do. I wouldn't fault them either way they go. 

True, but you will only delay the opportunities for playing time for guys like ZaDarius and Judon by bringing Kruger in. 

Need to find out what those guys are, not bury them on the depth chart.

[GrimCoconut]

Just now, rmcjacket23 said:

True, but you will only delay the opportunities for playing time for guys like ZaDarius and Judon by bringing Kruger in. 

Need to find out what those guys are, not bury them on the depth chart.

Right but that argument goes both ways and neither argument is any better than the other. Kruger would be a good addition to our questionable rotation but his addition depends on how comfortable the team feels with its starters and rotation depth in the young guys.  I wouldn't mind Kruger coming back but I won't care if he doesn't. Hopefully the team knows what it's doing and makes the right call because it's certainly not an easy decision. 

[rmcjacket23]

28 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

Right but that argument goes both ways and neither argument is any better than the other. Kruger would be a good addition to our questionable rotation but his addition depends on how comfortable the team feels with its starters and rotation depth in the young guys.  I wouldn't mind Kruger coming back but I won't care if he doesn't. Hopefully the team knows what it's doing and makes the right call because it's certainly not an easy decision. 

What's the other way the argument goes?

Either you're a team with younger players who you want to get an opportunity to play (with both Smith and Judon at least showing some semblance of being quality players), or you're a team with no youth but probably looking to add a veteran to bolster a unit that either is already good or is lacking one area.

For me, he's the perfect candidate for a veteran-pass rushing needy team that is likely looking to win NOW. He's not the kind of player you invest more than a year or two in, and he probably doesn't fit on a team that isn't looking to win now. To me, the Ravens don't fit that mold in 2016.

Its sort of the catch-22 struggle I see with fans on these boards all the time. I see the exact same people saying that we should give more playing time to Jeremy Butler and Chris Moore, while simultaneously advocating for bringing back Anquan Boldin. I don't see how those two things can work simultaneously in a given season, given the other people we have on the roster.

Same thing here. If we want to see more of Judon and Correa and ZaDarius (which I do and I think everybody else does), then why would I advocate that we sign a guy who we clearly wouldn't sign unless he's ahead of Judon? We wouldn't sign Kruger to be the 5th pass rusher... he wouldn't even agree to that deal if he thought that.

To me, it just doesn't make sense from a roster construction standpoint.

[izvoodoo]

9 hours ago, jdynamite said:

Hope this is 100% accurate. Nothing against Kruger, but I thought he got overhyped and overvalued following the Super Bowl run. He had a decent year that year as a situational pass rusher but before that the team couldn't find a position to keep him at for several years.  

 

Even beyond that I just don't see, who the team would part with so that Kruger could have a roster spot. 

I thought for the third down guy, he was great.  But he's a situational pass rusher.  Happy to see him get his money, nice guy, but not the right player right now.

Edited August 30, 2016 by izvoodoo

[GrimCoconut]

11 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

What's the other way the argument goes?

Either you're a team with younger players who you want to get an opportunity to play (with both Smith and Judon at least showing some semblance of being quality players), or you're a team with no youth but probably looking to add a veteran to bolster a unit that either is already good or is lacking one area.

For me, he's the perfect candidate for a veteran-pass rushing needy team that is likely looking to win NOW. He's not the kind of player you invest more than a year or two in, and he probably doesn't fit on a team that isn't looking to win now. To me, the Ravens don't fit that mold in 2016.

Its sort of the catch-22 struggle I see with fans on these boards all the time. I see the exact same people saying that we should give more playing time to Jeremy Butler and Chris Moore, while simultaneously advocating for bringing back Anquan Boldin. I don't see how those two things can work simultaneously in a given season, given the other people we have on the roster.

Same thing here. If we want to see more of Judon and Correa and ZaDarius (which I do and I think everybody else does), then why would I advocate that we sign a guy who we clearly wouldn't sign unless he's ahead of Judon? We wouldn't sign Kruger to be the 5th pass rusher... he wouldn't even agree to that deal if he thought that.

To me, it just doesn't make sense from a roster construction standpoint.

The other argument is pretty simple: we need veteran and experienced pass rush to supplement our two experienced-yet-aging pass rushers coming off of a season-ending injury and non-season-ending injury and don't want to bank on a rookie and sophomore pass rusher to provide that with our weakened secondary corps. I'd argue that the Ravens are looking to win now and think they could field a unit to win. I'd be disappointed if they didn't feel that way. 

You make a lot of statements referring to yourself, and that's fine because you have the right to your opinion. What I have an issue with is you're attempting to present your opinion as if it is the correct one and that's just myopic. I personally would probably roll along without Kruger, but the other side of this argument I listed above absolutely has merit to it. I think you fail to see others' views on matters, which I personally think is important. You are not always right, nor am I, and your opinion isn't necessary correct just because it is shared by the team, players, or other fans--or because it is your opinion. We've seen time and time again the front office (and other front offices) rely on youth to replace veterans and fail, while we have seen teams also rely on experienced veterans and fail. 

I think you should just realize that this is a discussion forum to discuss opinions and stop trying to stifle the opinions of others that differ from yours. If you think this is an easy decision to choose between adding a proven pass rusher who we know in Kruger, or rolling with two older veterans coming off injury and some promising rookies then you're wrong there. I have no idea if you (or myself, since I also think I'd rather give the young guys a chance to prove themselves) are right regarding your opinion that it's better to roll with the youth and see what we got than it is to add another veteran to steal snaps and experience from them. What I do know is the Ravens will do what they do regardless, and it frankly may not matter since the Saints may sign him anyway. 

Edited August 30, 2016 by GrimCoconut

[allblackraven]

2 hours ago, rmw10 said:

The push and shove of the NFL.  You always have one side that will say there's not enough experience and it's too risky, and there's always one side that will criticize because the young guys aren't getting time on the field to develop.  No one is really wrong in the situation.  It's all about where the team wants to go.  In the Ravens case, I think they'd much rather see and hope that the young guys will develop.

Or we could for once draft a pass rusher who is less of a project and avoid that dilemma? 

 

[rmcjacket23]

16 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

The other argument is pretty simple: we need veteran and experienced pass rush to supplement our two experienced-yet-aging pass rushers coming off of a season-ending injury and non-season-ending injury and don't want to bank on a rookie and sophomore pass rusher to provide that with our weakened secondary corps. I'd argue that the Ravens are looking to win now and think they could field a unit to win. I'd be disappointed if they didn't feel that way. 

You make a lot of statements referring to yourself, and that's fine because you have the right to your opinion. What I have an issue with is you're attempting to present your opinion as if it is the correct one and that's just myopic. I personally would probably roll along without Kruger, but the other side of this argument I listed above absolutely has merit to it. I think you fail to see others' views on matters, which I personally think is important. You are not always right, nor am I, and your opinion isn't necessary correct just because it is shared by the team, players, or other fans--or because it is your opinion. We've seen time and time again the front office (and other front offices) rely on youth to replace veterans and fail, while we have seen teams also rely on experienced veterans and fail. 

I think you should just realize that this is a discussion forum to discuss opinions and stop trying to stifle the opinions of others that differ from yours. If you think this is an easy decision to choose between adding a proven pass rusher who we know in Kruger, or rolling with two older veterans coming off injury and some promising rookies then you're wrong there. I have no idea if you (or myself, since I also think I'd rather give the young guys a chance to prove themselves) are right regarding your opinion that it's better to roll with the youth and see what we got than it is to add another veteran to steal snaps and experience from them. What I do know is the Ravens will do what they do regardless, and it frankly may not matter since the Saints may sign him anyway. 

1. Is the argument that we NEED veteran and experienced pass rush help to supplement with, or as you put it below, is that just YOUR personal preference that we supplement pass rush help with veterans vs unproven pass rushers. Those are two completely different things.

A need is what it is.. its a need. It means if we don't have it, we won't succeed. I don't think you actually think that, nor do I think anybody thinks that.

2. Of course I'm trying to present my opinion as the correct one... why would I present an opinion that I didn't think was right? What would be the point of that? You yourself are guilty of the same thing. You wouldn't present an opinion unless you thought it was the correct one. Why would you present an opinion that you thought was wrong?

The only reason you're presenting an opinion to sign Kruger is because YOU think its the right decision. 

3. I see plenty of views on different matters... as long as those views are rationale and well thought out. And most importantly, as long as those views don't contradict other views that they have expressed. This circles back to my example of some fans (not you) suggesting to give young WRs more opportunities while simultaneously advocating signing Boldin. 

Its easy to have an opinion on something. A generic opinion requires no thought, knowledge, or education about the subject matter. What's difficult is defending an opinion with rationale, intelligent reasons. Some on here are good at this, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. Others, when challenged to defend their opinions, simply throw up their hands and say "hey its just an opinion and I can have one whenever I want". OK, cool, but what does that say about you as a person? 

I'd never want to be the person who has an opinion but can't support my reason for having it at least somewhat intelligently. I could be proven wrong with better information, which happens daily, but I'd never want to be the guy who just willy nilly throws opinions out there and can't back them up.

Those kinds of people are horrendous for DISCUSSION boards, which is what this is, because there's no discussion when you just have an opinion and say "well I can have whatever opinion I want, it doesn't matter if its smart or not". That's basically just troll bait at that point.

4. As for the actual topic at hand, I personally don't see the point in even drafting ZaDarius Smith or Matt Judon if, after a very short period of time, you're already looking to drop them down the depth chart by signing a veteran who you know won't be here long.

To me, that's like replacing Matt Elam after his rookie season. Sure, wasn't a great year, but wasn't a bad year either and you'd expect growth. In hindsight, it would have been a great idea, because now we see the future. But pretty much every NFL team would agree its pointless to replace youth with veterans unless the youth have given you a reason to do so. 

And I don't think even you have seen a reason to do that yet.

 

Edited August 30, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[ERey]

No to Kruger. Obviously he would play behind Suggs and Dumerville. But the Ravens put a lot of resources in finding pass rushers in Matt Judon, Bronson Kaufusi (out for year), Kamalei Correa and Za'Darius Smith. I don't see Kruger as being a huge upgrade over any of these guys (word is he was cut from Cleveland for performance). Develop the young talent and save the money for other positions.

Edited August 30, 2016 by ERey

[GrimCoconut]

2 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. Is the argument that we NEED veteran and experienced pass rush help to supplement with, or as you put it below, is that just YOUR personal preference that we supplement pass rush help with veterans vs unproven pass rushers. Those are two completely different things.

A need is what it is.. its a need. It means if we don't have it, we won't succeed. I don't think you actually think that, nor do I think anybody thinks that.

2. Of course I'm trying to present my opinion as the correct one... why would I present an opinion that I didn't think was right? What would be the point of that? You yourself are guilty of the same thing. You wouldn't present an opinion unless you thought it was the correct one. Why would you present an opinion that you thought was wrong?

The only reason you're presenting an opinion to sign Kruger is because YOU think its the right decision. 

3. I see plenty of views on different matters... as long as those views are rationale and well thought out. And most importantly, as long as those views don't contradict other views that they have expressed. This circles back to my example of some fans (not you) suggesting to give young WRs more opportunities while simultaneously advocating signing Boldin. 

Its easy to have an opinion on something. A generic opinion requires no thought, knowledge, or education about the subject matter. What's difficult is defending an opinion with rationale, intelligent reasons. Some on here are good at this, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. Others, when challenged to defend their opinions, simply throw up their hands and say "hey its just an opinion and I can have one whenever I want". OK, cool, but what does that say about you as a person? 

I'd never want to be the person who has an opinion but can't support my reason for having it at least somewhat intelligently. I could be proven wrong with better information, which happens daily, but I'd never want to be the guy who just willy nilly throws opinions out there and can't back them up.

Those kinds of people are horrendous for DISCUSSION boards, which is what this is, because there's no discussion when you just have an opinion and say "well I can have whatever opinion I want, it doesn't matter if its smart or not". That's basically just troll bait at that point.

It's not my opinion. I'd rather roll with Smith, Judon, and Correa; that doesn't mean I can't see someone else's opinion just because it conflicts with mine. I'm not guilty of that and no, I would present an opinion that's not my own because I genuinely want to see and learn from the opinions of others because I recognize mine is not always right. I'm just keeping an open-mind here regarding potentially adding Kruger or some other veteran pass rusher, even if my preference is to go with the young guys. I don't think that's coming across and I'm not sure if it's my fault or yours, honestly. Perhaps I didn't present myself clearly or perhaps you read something and became incensed and missed my other points. I felt like I was pretty direct and restated my preference a few times but you seem to keep implying or outright saying that I want Kruger when that's not the case. I'll bold it below for you:

20 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

The other argument is pretty simple: we need veteran and experienced pass rush to supplement our two experienced-yet-aging pass rushers coming off of a season-ending injury and non-season-ending injury and don't want to bank on a rookie and sophomore pass rusher to provide that with our weakened secondary corps. I'd argue that the Ravens are looking to win now and think they could field a unit to win. I'd be disappointed if they didn't feel that way. 

You make a lot of statements referring to yourself, and that's fine because you have the right to your opinion. What I have an issue with is you're attempting to present your opinion as if it is the correct one and that's just myopic. I personally would probably roll along without Kruger, but the other side of this argument I listed above absolutely has merit to it. I think you fail to see others' views on matters, which I personally think is important. You are not always right, nor am I, and your opinion isn't necessary correct just because it is shared by the team, players, or other fans--or because it is your opinion. We've seen time and time again the front office (and other front offices) rely on youth to replace veterans and fail, while we have seen teams also rely on experienced veterans and fail. 

I think you should just realize that this is a discussion forum to discuss opinions and stop trying to stifle the opinions of others that differ from yours. If you think this is an easy decision to choose between adding a proven pass rusher who we know in Kruger, or rolling with two older veterans coming off injury and some promising rookies then you're wrong there. I have no idea if you (or myself, since I also think I'd rather give the young guys a chance to prove themselves) are right regarding your opinion that it's better to roll with the youth and see what we got than it is to add another veteran to steal snaps and experience from them. What I do know is the Ravens will do what they do regardless, and it frankly may not matter since the Saints may sign him anyway. 

Hopefully that clears up your false understanding of my point. I couldn't care less if we sign Kruger and although I'd prefer we not, I'd understand the move if we did add him or another veteran pass rusher for that matter. Just because I don't think we need to do it doesn't mean I can't see the logic and rationale behind it. It also doesn't mean I think it's a stupid idea as long as there's some logic, and there is here. 

[JoeyFlex5]

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

True, but you will only delay the opportunities for playing time for guys like ZaDarius and Judon by bringing Kruger in. 

Need to find out what those guys are, not bury them on the depth chart.

Can't worry about that if you're trying to win. Some say Kruger is unproductive but I have yet to see evidence that he's not a good pass rush specialist, sack numbers from 2015 be damned especially if he was claiming that he was being used wrong(and it's Cleveland so he probably isn't lying). This isn't like the wr problem where we have fielded proven failures over unproven guys with potential stunting their growth, this is where we only have 4 pass rushers and no other real options if ANYTHING were to happen to any of them, anything includes the young guys being disappointing, suggs or doom being in bad shape or old it getting injured again, it's an insurance policy and an instant boost for a hole in our team that's needed filling for years. We have cap space this year, it's beyond doable.

[Edgar]

Ravens brought in Ben Watson (never liked the idea) no matter that it would limit Maxx Williams and Crockett Gilmore. 

 

[rmcjacket23]

31 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Can't worry about that if you're trying to win. Some say Kruger is unproductive but I have yet to see evidence that he's not a good pass rush specialist, sack numbers from 2015 be damned especially if he was claiming that he was being used wrong(and it's Cleveland so he probably isn't lying). This isn't like the wr problem where we have fielded proven failures over unproven guys with potential stunting their growth, this is where we only have 4 pass rushers and no other real options if ANYTHING were to happen to any of them, anything includes the young guys being disappointing, suggs or doom being in bad shape or old it getting injured again, it's an insurance policy and an instant boost for a hole in our team that's needed filling for years. We have cap space this year, it's beyond doable.

Depends on how you define "trying to win". Are we going out there with the intention of winning each game every week? Sure. 

But there's a difference in this concept in my opinion. There are teams who have a "window" to win, and I don't see the Ravens as one of them. There are teams who, for varying circumstances, need to be really good in the next year or two, otherwise they'll likely be a pretty bad team for several years without having gotten to the top.

I don't see the Ravens in that group at all. Do we want to win? Sure. Do we need to win in order for people not to lose their jobs? Absolutely not. Is the expectation a SB or bust? Absolutely not. I think most reasonable fans think any playoff appearance would be considered a good season, given how the last few years have gone.

In all reality, having four pass rushers at this caliber appears to be very good compared to what other teams boast. Some don't even have 2 as good as what we have.

The whole concept of drafting pass rushers is for them to be really good during the time of their rookie contract, because once that contract expires, if they are even average, they're getting a fat payday, and one that we don't often match. To me, its a waste of time on a guy like ZaDarius Smith to basically demote him in favor of "insurance" for veterans that he may even be better than right now.

When I look at this concept of "we must win now", I ask myself some questions about the team construction:

Does a team that's "all in" on this season go all in on a rookie LT to protect the blindside of a QB who's coming off an ACL tear? Keep in mind... there's no veteran support behind him. The backup is a 4th round rookie at this point.

 

Edited August 30, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[rmcjacket23]

8 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Ravens brought in Ben Watson (never liked the idea) no matter that it would limit Maxx Williams and Crockett Gilmore. 

 

Not Apples to Apples.

1. Gillmore was hurt at the time, and those were legitimately the only two healthy TEs on the roster.

2. TEs aren't specifically out there to catch passes. Gillmore is a great blocker, and if everybody was healthy, my assumption is he wouldn't be doing barely any work in the passing game. Signing Watson wouldn't change that much.

3. The major difference is the existence of Suggs and Dumervil already, which means you have less need for veteran depth at that position. There was no veteran depth available at TE at the time of signing Watson.

If Suggs and Doom weren't on this team, or maybe even one of them wasn't, signing Kruger makes all the season in the world. But he'd be the third veteran in a pass rush group, not the first. Watson was the 1st (and at the time, only) veteran in that group.

Edited August 30, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[Edgar]

2 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Not Apples to Apples.

1. Gillmore was hurt at the time, and those were legitimately the only two healthy TEs on the roster.

2. TEs are specifically out there to catch passes. Gillmore is a great blocker, and if everybody was healthy, my assumption is he wouldn't be doing barely any work in the passing game. Signing Watson wouldn't change that much.

3. The major difference is the existence of Suggs and Dumervil already, which means you have less need for veteran depth at that position. There was no veteran depth available at TE at the time of signing Watson.

If Suggs and Doom weren't on this team, or maybe even one of them wasn't, signing Kruger makes all the season in the world. But he'd be the third veteran in a pass rush group, not the first. Watson was the 1st (and at the time, only) veteran in that group.

It doesn't sound as if they will bring him in....not suggesting they will, only that there is precedent for the Ravens bringing in a vet that would limit a young draft picks opportunities.

I assume by your omission that you agree Maxx Williams growth would indeed be stunted....clearly we are still talking apples.

 

[rmcjacket23]

10 minutes ago, Edgar said:

It doesn't sound as if they will bring him in....not suggesting they will, only that there is precedent for the Ravens bringing in a vet that would limit a young draft picks opportunities.

I assume by your omission that you agree Maxx Williams growth would indeed be stunted....clearly we are still talking apples.

 

Partially. He would be the 2nd pass catching option, so he'd basically be in a similar spot as last season. A bit concerning for everybody that Gillmore was a better pass catching TE option last season than he was.

Arguably the difference is that somebody like ZaDarius Smith showed a lot more as a rookie than Maxx did. Maxx really hasn't done anything yet to earn an elevated role, whereas guys like Smith and now Judon have.

I'm not opposed to pushing young guys down the depth chart when they haven't earned a bigger role, and Maxx hasn't in my eyes. I think ZaDarius Smith did, especially if he can be the 3rd rusher in a McPhee-type role instead of being forced to play like 70% of snaps as one of top 2 rushers. And so far, Judon has looked like a monster in the preseason, so he's earned more reps as well.

Edited August 30, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[ravensdan]

8 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

1 year removed from 11 sacks and 4 forced fumbles while being misused. Id say he's done a respectable job. 

Bingo!  Kruger is one FA that is a perfect fit. 

[ravensdan]

5 hours ago, rmw10 said:

Browner is garbage now.  He's been terrible ever since leaving Seattle.  I have 0 interest in him and I suspect his career might actually be over.  He's the exact opposite of the type of guy Harbaugh would want here with his 4859 penalties per game.

Bingo!  Not a fit in the least. I'd be surprised if he gets a job he has not played well.  

[arnie_uk]

3 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

A inherently subjective statement though, not an objective one. Its not a fact that there is logic here. 

As a subjective skeptic of that concept, the only logic I see in that regard is the FO basically throwing in the towel on the two young guys. That would be the "logic" I see.

Circles back to the entire concept of opinions and what its vital to a DISCUSSION board that people are challenged on them, and not merely everybody sitting in a circle saying "agree to disagree" after each side has spent 30 seconds expressing their views. That's where productive discussions die.

Thus, when somebody proposes an opinion and portrays their "logic" behind that, if I don't understand the logic or perhaps even disagree with, its important they are challenged on this. 

Seeing both sides of an argument is important, but challenging people to think differently about an argument or subject, even if it doesn't lead to a change in opinion, is the most important aspect of discussion in my opinion.

 

There's a difference to challenging people's opinions, and belittling their opinions, which is how you do it. Your belittling their opinions with your own opinions, not facts. Yours is no more rational or correct than theirs are.

Talking generally about 90 percent of your posts, not necessarily this thread.

[Tiznut]

If doom AND Suggs can't play then I'd consider an aging vet pass rusher but as it stands now no way I'd consider a new pass rusher let alone a guy who hasn't exactly been an effective pass rusher the last two years.  

 

I I get that Baltimore made him who he was but that doesn't mean we bring him back or that he'd actually produce if he came back. 

[allblackraven]

9 minutes ago, Tiznut said:

If doom AND Suggs can't play then I'd consider an aging vet pass rusher but as it stands now no way I'd consider a new pass rusher let alone a guy who hasn't exactly been an effective pass rusher the last two years.  

 

I I get that Baltimore made him who he was but that doesn't mean we bring him back or that he'd actually produce if he came back. 

Kruger actually had awesome 2014 but last year was not as good. 

[Daft Classic]

Are we really saying Kruger is better than/more worth ZDS and Judon? He's not going to come cheap and I'd rather play the two young guys who have repeatedly shown their potential

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, allblackraven said:

Kruger actually had awesome 2014 but last year was not as good. 

He also claims that Cleveland of all teams was misusing him, wouldn't come as a surprise to anyone if it was true.

[sibelius]

13 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

He also claims that Cleveland of all teams was misusing him, wouldn't come as a surprise to anyone if it was true.

He's probably right but there is no such thing as as being "misused" when you're making 40 mil. If he thought the Browns were paying 40 mil for him to play on third down he was a fool. 

 

 

 

[cobrajet]

On 8/29/2016 at 5:04 PM, JoeyFlex5 said:

ive always found him overrated, although ill say hes better than shareece wright

I have not been impressed with Wright in the preseason games. I hope we are looking closely at CB cuts.