Are we in trouble at TE?

[ravefan52]

10 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

I didn't like it, either. I still don't. You can't pay people like that. Contracts like that have really hurt the team

I thought Watson provided a pretty minimal upgrade for a decent amount of money. 35 and coming out of a Payton-Brees offense too. Also that's great he's a good guy but that's not going to win you games.

I get there were injuries and suspensions at TE, but we just needed some depth there. Not a very old stop gap who's going to be taking away playing time from promising young guys imo. 

And yeah honestly there's been a ton of wasted money lately. 

[kjbmore]

9 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

Pretty easy to say all this now that he is lost for the season.   lol 

Ben was not brought here just for his blocking and pass catching abilities, but also for his great locker room presence and general intelligence. His influence on the young guys could prove to be invaluable. No one could have anticipated him tearing his Achilles in pre season so saying the investment is a waste really isn't fair. 

Totally agree on this deal, nobody can foresee his injury but what do we expect when we're bringing in 35 year old guys - it's asking for, guess what, injuries - nothing against the guy, we got lucky with ssr but even his luck ran out, not sure what the front office is playing at - are we that desperate for character and leaders - just get us some ballers who might actually grow with the team, instead of play out a year or 2 and then we're looking to replace them again - quite short sighted 

[Tank 92]

2 hours ago, kjbmore said:

Totally agree on this deal, nobody can foresee his injury but what do we expect when we're bringing in 35 year old guys - it's asking for, guess what, injuries - nothing against the guy, we got lucky with ssr but even his luck ran out, not sure what the front office is playing at - are we that desperate for character and leaders - just get us some ballers who might actually grow with the team, instead of play out a year or 2 and then we're looking to replace them again - quite short sighted 

lol......Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.  You can't "just get us some ballers who might actually grow with the team" and expect to win.  How do you think those guys grow? You have to have a mix of quality vets and young players to build a winner. Coaches can't teach it all.   

I got curious and checked on where we have ranked as far as average age of our players. Seems lately we  rank right around mid pack. Our oldest team in the past 5 years was........guess when.   2012.

http://www.phillyvoice.com/ranking-nfl-teams-age/

 

[rmcjacket23]

12 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

I feel like it's a waste of money into an aging player. He's 35-years-old, and he's not Steve Smith Sr who had a Hall of Fame career. It's just a waste of money but more of a waste of compensatory pick we likely lost--unless his injury offsets that. I'm all for good players, but I feel like the investment was a waste of resources even if I understood the rationale for it. 

1. I'm not sure that will really impact the comp pick formula that much, nor do I think that comp pick is really that relevant, particularly with how poorly our recent drafts have gone.

2. The problem is that I don't think anybody could go into this season thinking "we're good" at TE with Gillmore and Maxx. Those are two very young guys, one with multiple injury concerns (he was injured when we signed Watson) and the other being pretty raw and haven't really shown much.

Certainly couldn't even remotely bank on Pitta making a comeback back in the March/April timeframe, and I'm not convinced that's even the case right now.

As such, you probably needed veteran leadership at that position regardless. I personally don't consider $3M that much anymore, practically regardless of position.

3. As I said earlier, despite being 35, he's also coming off a season where he basically would have put up all-time Raven great numbers as a TE. Like Todd Heap in his prime type numbers. Granted, they have a better QB and the system was better for him, but I'm not sure that matters here.

Plus, there's this notion of "I don't know where else we would have spent our money". There's not many $3M impact players available in March or now, not that it would have stopped us from signing them anyway.

[rmcjacket23]

3 hours ago, ravefan52 said:

I thought Watson provided a pretty minimal upgrade for a decent amount of money. 35 and coming out of a Payton-Brees offense too. Also that's great he's a good guy but that's not going to win you games.

I get there were injuries and suspensions at TE, but we just needed some depth there. Not a very old stop gap who's going to be taking away playing time from promising young guys imo. 

And yeah honestly there's been a ton of wasted money lately. 

I mean I think the wasted money thing is a bit overblown, given its largely centered around two players... Monroe and Rice. The latter was almost entirely out of the Ravens control.

The only truly "bad contract" that I see is Monroe. There's a number of deals where unpredictable injuries occurred that made those deals look bad, but fans often blame the FO for not having the crystal ball turned on when it comes to injuries anyway, so that's nothing new.

Plus, as is pretty much always the case, most fans who start bashing some of these contracts NOW were also applauding them when they were signed. Lardarius Webb comes to mind in a big way on that one, as does Haloti Ngata.

Edited August 29, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[trevorsteadman]

If Pitta and Williams get back before the regular season we are fine with 3 tight ends. If necessary Waller is there in Week 4. If not Daniel Brown will probably be okay as a #3 tight end for a game or two if needed but probably won't play that much. I loved the depth we had and now it is gone. RIP.

[Wildabeast88]

On August 28, 2016 at 1:39 AM, wizard1 said:

I'm so tired of hearing everyone say how deep we are at TE. We are not deep and actually have nothing viable to put out there. Ben Watson is done and even if he was ready for gametime  he was old and over the hill. Nick Boyle is suspended, Crockett Gilmore is always hurt. Dennis Pitta will never play another meaningful down in the NFL. The truth of the matter is we have Maxx Williams who actually reminds me of Todd Heap but without Maxx we have absolutely nothing. So Please lets get real!

Overreact much. Sami in disguise? 

[Wildabeast88]

13 hours ago, RaineV1 said:

I think we'll be fine at TE. Even with Watson out and Pitta possibly not playing we have Crockett and Max as reliable chain movers and blockers. Plus there's Waller after his suspension. Also Boyle will be back later on in the season, and he's shown flashes of being good.

Remember Juice can play TE as well and also I like Daniel Brown solid WR who has bulked up good hands good route runner I think we will be fine at TE 

[Wildabeast88]

On August 28, 2016 at 7:45 AM, wizard1 said:

No - I have yet to run out of magic but we are unfortunately out of TEs. And let/s see what else is wrong even tho we won 30-9. We really don't have a breakaway running back. Instead we got several ham h eggers. We really don't have a breakaway WR unless you call Kamar Aiken breakaway. We really don't have a back-up QB unless you want to call Ryan Mallet a safe bet. Terrell Suggs is old and haggard, so is SSS old and haggard,Wallace is a total joke. Weddle is almost 32, we got a patchwork O-Line with one half rookies and the other half veterans. . As usual we got a decent corp of linebackers and a decent D-line but if we have any injuries in either of those we have no depth. Do we have any possible pro bowlers Better yet -do we have any top 100 players of 2016? Yes we do-Marshal Yanda and....... So the big question is "How do we stack up against the rest of the AFC North" ?

When half our team was on IR it's hard to make any list plus those lists are overrated. Suggs looked good in return Aiken is solid just relax it is preseason and Wallace has looked pretty good lets not hit the panic button yet. We will be fine. 

[GrimCoconut]

4 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. I'm not sure that will really impact the comp pick formula that much, nor do I think that comp pick is really that relevant, particularly with how poorly our recent drafts have gone.

2. The problem is that I don't think anybody could go into this season thinking "we're good" at TE with Gillmore and Maxx. Those are two very young guys, one with multiple injury concerns (he was injured when we signed Watson) and the other being pretty raw and haven't really shown much.

Certainly couldn't even remotely bank on Pitta making a comeback back in the March/April timeframe, and I'm not convinced that's even the case right now.

As such, you probably needed veteran leadership at that position regardless. I personally don't consider $3M that much anymore, practically regardless of position.

3. As I said earlier, despite being 35, he's also coming off a season where he basically would have put up all-time Raven great numbers as a TE. Like Todd Heap in his prime type numbers. Granted, they have a better QB and the system was better for him, but I'm not sure that matters here.

Plus, there's this notion of "I don't know where else we would have spent our money". There's not many $3M impact players available in March or now, not that it would have stopped us from signing them anyway.

My deal with Watson is he's 35 and those numbers were an aberration compared to the rest of his career. Yes, his numbers were great but how many times has this team and Ozzie been lauded for letting guys walk who were system players? I think that's really where my issue is, after talking about it with you and the other guy.  That was his best year ever at 35. You pay guys for what you think they'll do going forward and not what they've done. 

As for the compensatory picks, I'd always take free picks. Not sure what you're thinking but I suppose we see things very differently here. Just because recent draft picks haven't panned out doesn't mean draft picks, and getting compensatory picks, don't matter as much. I doubt you're saying that but it sorta sounds like it. 

I see your point and I agree we needed veteran competition. I will drop this, though, to avoid taking this topic further away from its intent. 

[Purple_City39]

Honestly, I'm also one of the ones that felt the Watson signing was overrated.  One great season with Drew Brees throwing to him (keep in mind the Saints led the league in pass attempts so Watson had more chances).  I still feel it was a panic move since at that time, Gilmore was hurt, Pitta was an uncertainty, Boyle got his suspension announced, and Waller/Brown were first year transitions.

In terms of the thread, I don't see the reason for panic.  How many people remember the TEs that backed up Heap or how they performed?  We went into many seasons with one primary TE.  After Heap was released in 2011, we went into that season with two relatively unknown TEs.  I see no reason to panic now simply because we won't go in 3-4 deep.

It's a little bit of hindsight from when the thread was made, but we're going into week 1 with Gilmore, Pitta, and Williams.  They just have to make it 4 weeks and then we get another guy.  

[rossihunter2]

ok i was always lukewarm on the decision to bring in watson but im not gonna throw the FO under the bus for a freak injury especially when other decisions ive been lukewarm about have turned out so brilliantly

[JoeyFlex5]

I didn't like the Watson signing because of the money. We could have kept mcphee around with that kind of cake, however, I understood how raw and young our TE corps is, and when Watson was signed I thought he would be the immediate starter and nobody would even challenge the job, at least not this season. He would've been a fan favorite in no time had he stayed healthy. This was just unfortunate to say the least. 

I agree though, you can't pay guys over 30 that kind of money, you just can't, especiall with a old and often injured team.

[BmoreBird22]

10 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I didn't like the Watson signing because of the money. We could have kept mcphee around with that kind of cake

Other than being in separate FA classes, Watson got $3.5M on average per year and had a cap hit of $3M. McPhee got $8M per year and had a cap hit twice as high as Watson's (actually, about $500K higher than double). I'm not really sure how you drew this conclusion in the slightest.

Edited August 29, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[JoeyFlex5]

12 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Other than being in separate FA classes, Watson got $3.5M on average per year and had a cap hit of $3M. McPhee got $8M per year and had a cap hit twice as high as Watson's (actually, about $500K higher than double). I'm not really sure how you drew this conclusion in the slightest.

if we backloaded a bit of the cap hit, combining the money spent(as of now, more like wasted) on watson with our remaining cap space, it couldve been worked out. 

youre really trying to pick apart my posts today arent you? im just rambling man, if im being 100% literal i tend to go into detail and give specifics, not just make one line statements.

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, JoeyFlex5 said:

if we backloaded a bit of the cap hit, combining the money spent(as of now, more like wasted) on watson with our remaining cap space, it couldve been worked out. 

youre really trying to pick apart my posts today arent you? im just rambling man, if im being 100% literal i tend to go into detail and give specifics, not just make one line statements.

The Bears gave him the standard $1M base salary in the first year. There's not really a way to backload it more than that (and he only got $2.5M as a signing bonus, which kinda surprised me), so you're probably not gonna fit his cap in there.

Nothing against you; just some of your posts aren't quite making sense today

[JoeyFlex5]

i dont know if anyone has seen updates on this, but according to the little scroll bar at the bottom of the NFL network screen, harbaugh said pitta will be ready for week 1 and maxx will be returning to practice after the saints game. havent seen any confirmations or anything, just a passing alert on tv.

[JoeyFlex5]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

The Bears gave him the standard $1M base salary in the first year. There's not really a way to backload it more than that (and he only got $2.5M as a signing bonus, which kinda surprised me), so you're probably not gonna fit his cap in there.

Nothing against you; just some of your posts aren't quite making sense today

well i wont pretend to know mcphees cap figures off the top of my head lol. 

if my posts arent making sense its probably because i got 1 hour of sleep last night and just got home from a rough school day and im basically delirious at this point 

[BmoreBird22]

2 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i dont know if anyone has seen updates on this, but according to the little scroll bar at the bottom of the NFL network screen, harbaugh said pitta will be ready for week 1 and maxx will be returning to practice after the saints game. havent seen any confirmations or anything, just a passing alert on tv.

I saw this on the front news page of this site, so I think it's safe to say both will be good to go.

Just really wanna know what happened with Maxx.

[jazz1988]

58 minutes ago, Purple_City39 said:

Honestly, I'm also one of the ones that felt the Watson signing was overrated.  One great season with Drew Brees throwing to him (keep in mind the Saints led the league in pass attempts so Watson had more chances).  I still feel it was a panic move since at that time, Gilmore was hurt, Pitta was an uncertainty, Boyle got his suspension announced, and Waller/Brown were first year transitions.

In terms of the thread, I don't see the reason for panic.  How many people remember the TEs that backed up Heap or how they performed?  We went into many seasons with one primary TE.  After Heap was released in 2011, we went into that season with two relatively unknown TEs.  I see no reason to panic now simply because we won't go in 3-4 deep.

It's a little bit of hindsight from when the thread was made, but we're going into week 1 with Gilmore, Pitta, and Williams.  They just have to make it 4 weeks and then we get another guy.  

 

 

Ben Watson may have had his best season with The Saints but it's not like he never put up solid receiving numbers before. Looking at his career  receiving yards wise it seems like Ben Watson has always been a solid receiving tight end.  I don't think any one should panic but of course there should be some concerns. Crockett Gilmore is taleated and played well last year but he has trouble staying healthy. Max Williams is the most talented tight end on the roster but I have to wonder if he's ready to step up. Dennis Pitta is Joe Flacco favorite target but hasn't played football since 2014 and his hip should be a concern.

[rossihunter2]

20 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i dont know if anyone has seen updates on this, but according to the little scroll bar at the bottom of the NFL network screen, harbaugh said pitta will be ready for week 1 and maxx will be returning to practice after the saints game. havent seen any confirmations or anything, just a passing alert on tv.

he said it in his press conference today

[ravensdan]

3 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

My deal with Watson is he's 35 and those numbers were an aberration compared to the rest of his career. Yes, his numbers were great but how many times has this team and Ozzie been lauded for letting guys walk who were system players? I think that's really where my issue is, after talking about it with you and the other guy.  That was his best year ever at 35. You pay guys for what you think they'll do going forward and not what they've done. 

As for the compensatory picks, I'd always take free picks. Not sure what you're thinking but I suppose we see things very differently here. Just because recent draft picks haven't panned out doesn't mean draft picks, and getting compensatory picks, don't matter as much. I doubt you're saying that but it sorta sounds like it. 

I see your point and I agree we needed veteran competition. I will drop this, though, to avoid taking this topic further away from its intent. 

I have to agree this one has been a very uncharacteristic move for this team. Not the end of the world either way. But I'm not entirely pleased with our free agent additions and subtractions since McPhee. 

[Steve0x]

NO- Heres why someone is going to make a big mistake releasing a TE and he could be a potential star. Just like it was a big mistake Texans released Ryan Mallett

[Steve0x]

Ozzie should pay attention Titans Evan Engram If they cut him get him.

[Maryland]

Earlier today I heard Scott Garceau describing Maxx Williams as a TE who makes difficult, athletic catches because he doesn't get good separation on his own unless he's sitting between zones or schemed-open. I wonder how true that assessment is.

[jdynamite]

The current state of the TEs is cloudy, Maxx has been out with an undisclosed injury, little information released ( I used to not worry about this so much but after the whole Perriman ordeal ).  I hope Maxx is playing come Week1. 

Crockett is nice player, but he goes down almost as much as Camparano, which means durability is an issue.  

Pitta is recovering from the Finger injury, that seemed to be his only setback of this offseason.

 

Juice is technically not a TE but he has the receiving skills and blocking ability to lineup or motion there if needed. 

 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Even with injury Watson can still serve as a mentor figure for Maxx and Crockett, so he's still bringing some value to the table. I've been vocal about Crockett, but he's still a good player. I do think Maxx is a better player with better hands who is better at contested catches. He did have a very good rookie season for a TE and I'm not as worried about him. Crockett and Maxx are still a good 1-2 punch. Even with Watson taking a hit. the TE group is still strong. Worst case scenario is we get Waller and Boyle back at different points in the season. Boyle was also good as a rookie and Waller has looked good in practice and the preseason. At this current moment it's a question mark. But there's a lot to like here.

 

If we can get Maxx, Crockett, and Pitta back.. Imagine the possibilities. We can kick Pitta out to the slot while putting Maxx or Crockett at the inline spot. So on and so forth. 

[rmcjacket23]

On 8/29/2016 at 5:33 PM, Steve0x said:

NO- Heres why someone is going to make a big mistake releasing a TE and he could be a potential star. Just like it was a big mistake Texans released Ryan Mallett

You mean the same Mallett who might not make this team?

[Ravensfan23]

Watson was signed because the Ravens couldn't bank on Pitta's return. The Ravens needed to add a stretch TE to this group who could put pressure on Safeties and further help open the field. I strongly believe this is why both Waller and Brown were moved to TE along with the crowd at WR. 

As big and strong as Gilmore is, he isn't a guy who can really attack the seams with great success. He wins from being a big strong target but he doesn't separate from LBs good enough and isn't fast enough to quickly attack the Safeties. 

Maxx is a guy who I think many hope can develop into a Pitta type TE, but he's not there yet and I'm not sure he'll ever get there. He may be more of a Heath Miller type with a bit more athletic ability. A guy who isn't really a mismatch separation creating TE, but one who gets open due to scheme and will make you pay if forgotten.

Boyle is another guy who doesn't really do a good job of creating space and will get schemed open but can also make you pay with the ball in his hands. 

So imo Watson wasn't just a panic move because of the situation at TE, the Ravens needed a stretch TE they could move around like Pitta. Watson was a 1yr option in hopes that maybe a guy like Waller could make the transition or maybe Maxx developed into that role. I think Pitta coming back was a bonus the Ravens didn't expect but was happy for. If he can return to form than the Watson loss won't be felt at imo. 

If another injury is happens at the TE after week 4, I think Waller comes back and moves into that stretch TE role the Ravens want in this offense. 

[frozen joe flacco fan]

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 9:34 PM, GrimCoconut said:

Ben was not brought here just for his blocking and pass catching abilities, but also for his great locker room presence and general intelligence. His influence on the young guys could prove to be invaluable. No one could have anticipated him tearing his Achilles in pre season so saying the investment is a waste really isn't fair. 

This is an interesting observation but I must respectfully disagree. If Ben wasn't brought in for his blocking and pass catching abilities, it was a wasted investment even before his Achilles injury. However, in view of the uncertainty we had at the TE position before we signed him, Ben's signing was a great FA pickup. Of the available active TEs, he would have been more than adequate as a blocker and a big reliable receiver target for Joe. He was the wide-bodied TE we needed to replace the void created by Dennis. I doubt seriously the organization spent the money to sign him for his great locker room presence and general intelligence. To be honest, they desperately needed to sign a bona fide TE as an insurance policy in case Pitta either retired or did not make a successful comeback. It was a no brainer. As it is, we have to hope the young guys can step up and take advantage of the opportunities they've been given. That's what makes the PED violation by Boyle so dumb and Waller's suspension equally dumb. Due to their selfish behavior, we're no longer deep at a position which looked to be a strength during the off-season. Of course, Dennis is the wild card. If he is able to make a successful comeback, our depth chart at TE would be OK w/o Ben. I wish him the best but I have serious doubts about his ability to take some of the vicious hits any TE has to endure during the course of the season. I think he will used sparingly and mainly in passing situations on 3rd downs to sustain a drive. I wish Ben a speedy recovery from his surgery and hope to see his locker room presence before this season's end.