The good, the not so good pre-season game 2

[Jacquouille]

1 minute ago, sibelius said:

 

I find it interesting that only Ravens fans say this kind of thing. I've see the same thing with Levine..."He was in position and had tight coverage but the ball still got there." That means he got beat. It's a DBs job to stop the ball getting there, if not get the ball back.

 

Even Revis gets beat on tight coverage. It's rare but it happens and it's called getting beat. I think we collectively give our DBs way too much leeway in this regard. Jimmy got beat on that play and Levine got beat a few times, let's hold them accountable. (The Levine comments have nothing to do with the quoted post so please don't assume I am putting words in your mouth, just expressing a separate opinion)

Getting beat is natural for a DB, OC gameplan for that to happen. Giving up a few short/medium passes in the game is fine. Last year we got abused because we gave up 55yards TDs twice per game.

[chunkywill25]

Looks like judon is getting some snaps with the first team next week. He's earned it. 

[rmw10]

8 minutes ago, sibelius said:

 

I find it interesting that only Ravens fans say this kind of thing. I've see the same thing with Levine..."He was in position and had tight coverage but the ball still got there." That means he got beat. It's a DBs job to stop the ball getting there, if not get the ball back.

 

Even Revis gets beat on tight coverage. It's rare but it happens and it's called getting beat. I think we collectively give our DBs way too much leeway in this regard. Jimmy got beat on that play and Levine got beat a few times, let's hold them accountable. (The Levine comments have nothing to do with the quoted post so please don't assume I am putting words in your mouth, just expressing a separate opinion)

To an extent.  Sometimes you can do everything right in coverage - stay tight on the hip and run step for step with the guy - but the ball is still complete.  Sometimes there's just a perfect throw where a CB has no chance to make a play on it.  It happens.  Although you can say beat, I don't think it's a fair representation.

[chunkywill25]

39 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

I said it was a mistake to give jimmy that contract ..should have given it to McpHee.

 

McPhee is everything jernigan,davis and urban appear to be not..

 

 

been very disappointed in those 3 so far.

Not agreeing with everything but 8 mil a year was something we should've been able to pay for him.. he actually produced 

[sibelius]

3 minutes ago, Jacquouille said:

Getting beat is natural for a DB, OC gameplan for that to happen. Giving up a few short/medium passes in the game is fine. Last year we got abused because we gave up 55yards TDs twice per game.

 

Totally agree that it's a part of the game, I was just challenging the way we kind of make excuses for our guys.

[sibelius]

6 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

To an extent.  Sometimes you can do everything right in coverage - stay tight on the hip and run step for step with the guy - but the ball is still complete.  Sometimes there's just a perfect throw where a CB has no chance to make a play on it.  It happens.  Although you can say beat, I don't think it's a fair representation.

Perhaps, but I would just call that getting beat by a perfect throw. It happens, but no need for the sugar in my opinion.

Also, to say there was "no play" isn't totally true. Ed Reed made a career off diagnosing plays and beating the ball to the spot. Ed Reed was a generational talent I understand and that's a very difficult play to make, but there's always a play to be made. I guess I'm just tired of having guys that are OK, coupled with lowered expectations for what they should be able to do on the field. 

[rmw10]

Just now, sibelius said:

Perhaps, but I would just call that getting beat by a perfect throw. It happens, but no need for the sugar in my opinion.

Also, to say there was "no play" isn't totally true. Ed Reed made a career off diagnosing plays and beating the ball to the spot. Ed Reed was a generational talent I understand and that's a very difficult play to make, but there's always a play to be made. I guess I'm just tired of having guys that are OK, coupled with lowered expectations for what they should be able to do on the field. 

I think you're reading a bit much into it.  CBs are always going to get beat to some extent.  It's not making excuses.  There's no CB that can go out there and not get "beat."  That's how football works.  I always try to look at it as good coverage and bad coverage, not beat or not beat.

[Jacquouille]

8 minutes ago, sibelius said:

 

Totally agree that it's a part of the game, I was just challenging the way we kind of make excuses for our guys.

Hmm, Okay. Honestly I'm not making excuses, there's no sugar coating the stats the QBs had yesterday (sorry I couldn't watch the game, so I can only trust the scoreboard). It was a bad game by our whole pass defense, but I'm not asking for our secondary to be top10. All I'm asking is for them to not get burnt like last year and enjoy the better pass rush to improve our turnover ratio. We won't shut down offenses this year, we know that, but we can improve and become more reliable as a unit.

[sibelius]

2 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I think you're reading a bit much into it.  CBs are always going to get beat to some extent.  It's not making excuses.  There's no CB that can go out there and not get "beat."  That's how football works.  I always try to look at it as good coverage and bad coverage, not beat or not beat.

 

Totally get where you're both coming from, but to me this isn't  judgment based on one game. This is based on 3 years of less than stellar secondary play and the reactions we've had to that collectively. Even in 2013 it was much more about the pass rush than the secondary. 

[rmw10]

1 minute ago, sibelius said:

 

Totally get where you're both coming from, but to me this isn't  judgment based on one game. This is based on 3 years of less than stellar secondary play and the reactions we've had to that collectively. Even in 2013 it was much more about the pass rush than the secondary. 

There's no question whatsoever that this secondary has been incredibly shaky the past 2-3 years.  Something eventually has to give there.  I just don't see the sense in knocking someone like Levine who had multiple instances of good coverage, but a few where the throw was just placed perfectly.  Think there was a lot more positive than negative from him.  I don't think Jimmy was tested enough to be able to say one way or another.  Wright and Powers were the targets most of the 1st Q.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

2 hours ago, reproc01 said:

Looks like the Ravens play a prevent Defense between the 20's. Can't allow red zone opportunities every drive and act like we achieved something.

• Yards per rush given up.
• Third and longs given up.
• DB's chasing receivers. Few pass break ups.
• Poor tackling.
• Philosophy and mentality need to change, or change Coordinator.
• Any other questions?

So this guy says this and gets two thumbs up. I point out the same thing and name the most egregious culprits and get all negatives. Don't shoot the messenger.

Edited August 21, 2016 by EdTheMythicalOne

[757RavensFan]

1 minute ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

So this guy says this and gets two thumbs up. I point out the same thing and name the most egregious cultprits and get all negatives. Don't shoot the messenger.

You actually pay attention to your negs compared to others??? Emo much??

[Ravensfan23]

2 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

So this guy says this and gets two thumbs up. I point out the same thing and name the most egregious cultprits and get all negatives. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

Just now, 757RavensFan said:

You actually pay attention to your negs compared to others??? Emo much??

guys lets not go here, keep it about football. 

[sibelius]

1 minute ago, rmw10 said:

There's no question whatsoever that this secondary has been incredibly shaky the past 2-3 years.  Something eventually has to give there.  I just don't see the sense in knocking someone like Levine who had multiple instances of good coverage, but a few where the throw was just placed perfectly.  Think there was a lot more positive than negative from him.  I don't think Jimmy was tested enough to be able to say one way or another.  Wright and Powers were the targets most of the 1st Q.

Fair point. I guess I'm giving Levine a hard time because some seem to have such high hopes for him and we've been burned in that regard in the past (See: Melvin, Rashaan; Webb, Lardarius post-injury). I do hope that we're seeing isolated instances and not things that are symptomatic of lack of ability.

And to stop being negative, Levine showed me a ton with that run back. He's clearly there mentally, I just hope he has the physical talent to consistently make those kinds of plays. 

[EdTheMythicalOne]

2 hours ago, Cville-Raven said:

Yeah but he shouldn't be getting outran. Thats an open field tackle that should be made as far as I'm concerned. You know who didn't get outran on his plays and made the tackles? Matt Elam. Oh but I guess those can't be recognized because of prior seasons. 

I guess you don't understand that safety and linebacker are two different positions. I also don't blame that play squarely on Mosley as the defense as a whole lost contain on Luck. Nobody took care of their assignment on that play.

Matt Elam doesn't get outrun? Oh really? Just wait until somebody challenges him deep in coverage and I will show you a beaten Matt Elam. We seem to forget that his problem was more than just lacking tackling skills, it was also that he couldn't cover.

You know that Elam as a safety is the last man standing and it is his job NOT to get beaten? He's always running downhill on a play. So in one pre season game against the backups mind you he makes some tackles that ANY OTHER safety in the league should be making and now all of a sudden he is the second coming of Ed Reed. Give me a break.

You all can be happy with Matt Elam's performance and think he's had a great game if you want to. More kudos to you. If you think he was "in position" all night then I guess you know more than the coaches do and have access to every game plan they had and have access to all the game film they'll be watching this week.

In case you are all forgetting, the team brought in Weddle for a reason. A guy that couldn't cut it as a starting corner is now taking that other safety job away from Matt too. I guess I got no idea what I am talking about...or the Ravens apparently.

 

[EdTheMythicalOne]

7 minutes ago, 757RavensFan said:

You actually pay attention to your negs compared to others??? Emo much??

Just an observation, no I don't really care.

[January J]

Good: JUDON , butler, JOHNSON, Moore, Aiken  , weddle , Koch .canaday did ok and obviously Levine redeemed himself. How awesome was that? 

Bad : running game. After a good game last week - they were pretty absent and the colts seemed to dominate the line on both sides of the ball . Forsett had limited Carries but his performance was underwhelming. Doesn't really concern me though. Once again a few bonehead penalties almost cost us the game. This almost ended up eerily similar to the jaguar game last year. And once again we can never seem to get off the damn feild on third down, no matter how long they got to go. Very frustrating. Just gotta keep in mind there was still no sizzle or doom on the feild which can drastically change things. Also, where were the tight ends?

 

Mallet played well- but for some reason every time Johnson ( josh) is on the feild I just have a lot more confidence in him moving the ball downfield. He seems to take command of the offense well and not only is he mobile but makes very accurate throws. Reminds me of tyrod in a way. But yeah I just love a qb who can pick up a first down with his feet but still be able to sling the ball. I was wondering why they put jerrod in after only giving josh that one drive and when they put him back in you could just feel the vibe and momentum change. Never thought somebody would give mallet competition and I still think it's Ryan's job- but it will be an interesting battle to watch if josh keeps it up. Be nice if a qb needy team would offer up anything for him but that's doubtful. It's a shame they don't let you carry a few more players on the roster bc I'd love to keep them both.

I just can't wait to see joe make some throws down feild to Wallace and to get Steve back in the mix. Along with Watson and God forbid perriman get out there. Once we get going and start firing on all cylinders we will be a tough team to reckon with.

Edited August 21, 2016 by January J

[EdTheMythicalOne]

1 hour ago, Jacquouille said:

:facepalm:

So when JJ Watt tackles a QB and when Rashad Jones tackles a RB after a 20 yards gain, it's the exact same thing. Okay. 

Did Matt Elam tackle a QB? Did he get a sack I am not aware of? Did he make any tackles for a loss? Of course not all tackles mean the same thing. That's what a guy making "a tackle" in and of itself is pretty meaningless.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

3 minutes ago, January J said:

Good: JUDON , butler, JOHNSON, Moore, Aiken  , weddle , Koch .canaday did ok and obviously Levine redeemed himself. How awesome was that? 

Bad : running game. After a good game last week - they were pretty absent and the colts seemed to dominate the line on both sides of the ball . Forsett had limited Carries but his performance was underwhelming. Doesn't really concern me though. Once again a few bonehead penalties almost cost us the game. This almost ended up eerily similar to the jaguar game last year. And once again we can never seem to get off the damn feild on third down, no matter how long they got to go. Very frustrating. Just gotta keep in mind there was still no sizzle or doom on the feild which can drastically change things. Also, where were the tight ends?

 

Mallet played well- but for some reason every time Johnson ( josh) is on the feild I just have a lot more confidence in him moving the ball downfield. He seems to take command of the offense well and not only is he mobile but makes very accurate throws. Reminds me of tyrod in a way. But yeah I just love a qb who can pick up a first down with his feet but still be able to sling the ball. I was wondering why they put jerrod in after only giving josh that one drive and when they put him back in you could just feel the vibe and momentum change. Never thought somebody would give mallet competition and I still think it's Ryan's job- but it will be an interesting battle to watch if josh keeps it up. Be nice if a qb needy team would offer up anything for him but that's doubtful. It's a shame they don't let you carry a few more players on the roster bc I'd love to keep them both.

 

I agree with you about Josh Johnson. While Mallet played pretty well in both games, the offense just seems to be more fluid with Johnson. Mallett is also going up against more of the starters on defense, but conversely he's supposed to be working with more of the starters on offense.

The offensive line was the main problem in the ground game. There just weren't many holes opening up. On the defense while there was no Sizzle or Doom that's okay in my book. The whole idea this off season was to find the guys that could step up and help contribute behind them and so far nobody is really pounding down that door. Z. Smith has looked good on some plays, Chris Carter looked good in game one, and Matt Judon has looked pretty good. But it has been all pretty inconsistent and mainly coming against 2nd and 3rd string players.

I think the best case scenario is that some team comes calling about either Mallett or Johnson and offers us a little something. Highly doubtful since every team out there knows we won't carry 3 QB's on the roster so they know we're going to cut one. It is just a matter of them wanting the guy we're not going to cut.

[Deflated Football]

1 hour ago, chunkywill25 said:

Looks like judon is getting some snaps with the first team next week. He's earned it. 

Love this. Have really high hopes for this kid 

[Willbacker]

The Good

McCleelan looked very capable of handling the Upshaw role and has earned time in run D's.

Going to be hard to cut Josh Johnson especially when we need a QB that can simulate the read and react style QB's that are in the league today.

Chris Moore and Jeremy Butler both looked really good out there and Campanaro looks like he's sewn up the PR duties. Good hands and knows when to faircatch.

Matt Judon. What can you say. He needs to be a little better in run D tho.

Brandon Williams looked very stout on the nose.

Zach Orr looks like the real deal.

Harbs was on his game handing his red flag to an assistant at the 2 min warning and grabbing it right back as they were trotting into the lockerroom at halftime. Also got Pees on the field so he can yell at him.

The Bad

No DL push on 4 man passrushes which I believe mainly contributed to the successions of the Colts getting big yardage on 2nd and 3rd and longs moreso than the secondaries fault. The secondary has multiple problems with crossing patterns tho.

The 3rd string Oline in the 2nd half. Just wow man. All cutbait. I still have hopes for Skuta tho but he was part of it.

Terrence West took a step back and hopefully he learns from this and makes quicker decisions. Remember the jittery Jamal Lewis year?

Kickoff team gave up too many yards while we couldn't even get back to the 20 let alone the 25.

The Ugly

PENALTIES. Aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhhh!!

 

[EdTheMythicalOne]

3 hours ago, Cville-Raven said:

Yeah but he shouldn't be getting outran. Thats an open field tackle that should be made as far as I'm concerned. You know who didn't get outran on his plays and made the tackles? Matt Elam. Oh but I guess those can't be recognized because of prior seasons. 

Am I wrong or did the Ravens not go out and completely re-vamp their entire starting safety crew. That's right they did. Now, I wonder what they based that off of. Did they base that off of what they thought Matt Elam might do in pre season football games against second and third string players, or did they base that off of previous seasons and his performance up to this point. Did they decide to waive his fifth year option on his rookie year because of what he hadn't done yet in pre season football (because they did that prior to the pre season games starting) or based off of previous seasons?

Seems like I am not the only one who judges things at least in some degree on previous seasons. I'm not saying that Matt Elam did absolutely nothing in the game. I am not saying he didn't make tackles. What I am saying is that he had a game that every safety in the league should be having and that's not exactly reason for people to be jumping up and down and celebrating. He made some tackles. He didn't force any fumbles, he didn't pick off any passes. He didn't recover a fumble. Anthony Levine did some of that, and he was all over the field, he was making impact plays. You want to be excited about a player, that's a guy that is making noise.

[sibelius]

Definitely need to show Orr some love. Someone compared him to Scott and I think that's an apt viewpoint. Excited to see what he can do on Sundays.

[Tank 92]

58 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

 

Matt Elam doesn't get outrun? Oh really? Just wait until somebody challenges him deep in coverage and I will show you a beaten Matt Elam. We seem to forget that his problem was more than just lacking tackling skills, it was also that he couldn't cover.

In case you are all forgetting, the team brought in Weddle for a reason. A guy that couldn't cut it as a starting corner is now taking that other safety job away from Matt too. I guess I got no idea what I am talking about...or the Ravens apparently.

 

LMAO!  But Ed, I thought you didn't make suppositions/assumptions from past performances?  You base your opinions from watching  play on the field?  That doesn't seem to be the case here. Everyone gets it, you don't like Elam and you have a right to your opinion of his play,  but it's an opinion and not fact.

The guy hasn't played a meaningful game in over a year and all reports last year and this year have him showing improvement. Watching his play in preseason it's apparent that is true. I haven't read about anyone "proclaiming" him the next Ed Reed or any such thing. People are saying he has improved and is playing well, which he is. And it just could be that Matt becomes the player the Ravens thought he would be when he was drafted. Yes, there is a chance of that!   lol

Edited August 21, 2016 by Tank 92

[Cville-Raven]

13 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Am I wrong or did the Ravens not go out and completely re-vamp their entire starting safety crew. That's right they did. Now, I wonder what they based that off of. Did they base that off of what they thought Matt Elam might do in pre season football games against second and third string players, or did they base that off of previous seasons and his performance up to this point. Did they decide to waive his fifth year option on his rookie year because of what he hadn't done yet in pre season football (because they did that prior to the pre season games starting) or based off of previous seasons?

Seems like I am not the only one who judges things at least in some degree on previous seasons. I'm not saying that Matt Elam did absolutely nothing in the game. I am not saying he didn't make tackles. What I am saying is that he had a game that every safety in the league should be having and that's not exactly reason for people to be jumping up and down and celebrating. He made some tackles. He didn't force any fumbles, he didn't pick off any passes. He didn't recover a fumble. Anthony Levine did some of that, and he was all over the field, he was making impact plays. You want to be excited about a player, that's a guy that is making noise.

Lol you talk about people celebrating elam making plays against 2nd&3rd stringers even though he also played with the ones but whatever lets totally not acknowledge that.  Here you are talking up Levine who made a play against guys who won't even be in the league.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Cville-Raven

[ALSKAN RAVEN FAN]

We all know the pre-season is set up for putting together the best team possible and as long as the best 53 make the team then so be it. 

[Sami84]

18 minutes ago, sibelius said:

Definitely need to show Orr some love. Someone compared him to Scott and I think that's an apt viewpoint. Excited to see what he can do on Sundays.

scott seemed a bit more athletic...

 

maybe a better versionf of jameel McCalin?

[EdTheMythicalOne]

8 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

LMAO!  But Ed, I thought you didn't make suppositions from past performances?  You base your opinions from watching  play on the field?  That doesn't seem to be the case here. Everyone gets it, you don't like Elam and you have a right to your opinion of his play,  but it's an opinion and not fact.

The guy hasn't played a meaningful game in over a year and all reports last year and this year have him showing improvement. Watching his play in preseason it's apparent that is true. I haven't read about anyone "proclaiming" him the next Ed Reed or any such thing. People are saying he has improved and is playing well, which he is. And it just could be that Matt becomes the player the Ravens thought he would be when he was drafted. Yes, there is a chance of that!   lol

Apparently you and everyone else that you lump in with you don't get it. You think I don't like Elam? It has nothing to do with me liking him or not liking him. I was hoping for great things from him just like everyone else. I am just not about to let my love for the Ravens cloud my vision on what he actually is.

I am basing what I see on the field. And so far Matt Elam has played a game that every other safety in the league should have played last night. I don't consider that to be a huge deal, but others do so good on them. And just like my opinion of his performance to date isn't that high, the opinions of you and the people that agree with you are just that, opinions and not facts. Just remember that.

All reports? I guess you haven't been reading all of them. Watching his play from pre season, did you catch the first game? He whiffed on two open field tackles, but I guess we won't comment on those, right? And I never said anyone was proclaiming him anything, but that is the way the reactions seem to be going. Like he's the greatest thing since sliced bread simply because he made some tackles.

People say he is improving and playing well, which....is an opinion.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

10 minutes ago, Cville-Raven said:

Lol you talk about people celebrating elam making plays against 2nd&3rd stringers even though he also played with the ones but whatever lets totally not acknowledge that.  Here you are talking up Levine who made a play against guys who won't even be in the league.

Levine played a lot last night, more than Elam. And yes. Levine, because Levine actually made plays. Go figure. That 2pt. pickoff isn't the only play he made.

Edited August 21, 2016 by EdTheMythicalOne

[Jacquouille]

1 hour ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Did Matt Elam tackle a QB? Did he get a sack I am not aware of? Did he make any tackles for a loss? Of course not all tackles mean the same thing. That's what a guy making "a tackle" in and of itself is pretty meaningless.

Oh, so it takes a genius to understand an open field tackle is a great play that turns a would-be big play into a minor gain, if not a TFL.

Sorry I couldn't get that.