The good, the not so good pre-season game 2

[GrimCoconut]

3 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Given it would cost the Ravens to cut him this year, I think he stays, but I wouldn't be drafting him in fantasy leagues

I don't know how much that'll play into the decision. Normally I'd agree, but I think roster spots will be nearly as valuable as cap space at this point in the season. I think it's very possible we cut Pitta and move on from him. Hardly a guarantee but easily a realistic possibility. 

[sibelius]

11 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I don't know how much that'll play into the decision. Normally I'd agree, but I think roster spots will be nearly as valuable as cap space at this point in the season. I think it's very possible we cut Pitta and move on from him. Hardly a guarantee but easily a realistic possibility. 

Yea I agree. Cap is not an issue for us at this point but having a roster full of guys that we can count on to contribute is. Too many jobs/reputations on the line to hold on to guys for any other reason then that they are or can be counted on to be available—soon. 

[GrimCoconut]

16 minutes ago, sibelius said:

Yea I agree. Cap is not an issue for us at this point but having a roster full of guys that we can count on to contribute is. Too many jobs/reputations on the line to hold on to guys for any other reason then that they are or can be counted on to be available—soon. 

Yeah. I mean, if Harbaugh said Campanaro is a great player but doesn't do much to help the team if he can't stay healthy, then why can't we expand that same statement onto Pitta--especially if the injury is one he himself contributed towards? I think that's a bigger issue than many realize, and I think Harbaugh may not have necessarily been singling out Campanaro with that statement as much as saying that guys need to stay healthy. I think parting with Pitta is very possible. 

[BmoreBird22]

1 hour ago, GrimCoconut said:

I don't know how much that'll play into the decision. Normally I'd agree, but I think roster spots will be nearly as valuable as cap space at this point in the season. I think it's very possible we cut Pitta and move on from him. Hardly a guarantee but easily a realistic possibility. 

 

1 hour ago, sibelius said:

Yea I agree. Cap is not an issue for us at this point but having a roster full of guys that we can count on to contribute is. Too many jobs/reputations on the line to hold on to guys for any other reason then that they are or can be counted on to be available—soon. 

You're talking about costing the team like $4.4M when you could simply make the guy a weekly inactive and hope he returns to form.

[KBoum]

and if they keep him this year, his salary is like 7M next season IIRC.

[jazz1988]

36 minutes ago, KBoum said:

and if they keep him this year, his salary is like 7M next season IIRC.

They probably could restructure his contract or ask him to take a pay cut if they really wanted to. The Ravens are pretty deep at tight end so Dennis Pitta shouldn't be expected to put  up great numbers stat wise but I honestly think The Ravens should keep Pitta around especially with question marks at wide receiver. Atleast with Pitta you know he can be reliable receiver in the slot and etc for Joe Flacco if need be.

[GrimCoconut]

46 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

 

You're talking about costing the team like $4.4M when you could simply make the guy a weekly inactive and hope he returns to form.

Right, but you're also talking about releasing another player the team may like who can actually play football without the injuries. Yes, Pitta was a very good player and potentially a top-tier TE when he was healthy; however, he hasn't done much since the Super Bowl run due to injuries in two consecutive years. He missed all of 2013 due to the injury, came back in 2014 and then missed that year, too. Then, he missed all of 2015, too. I mean, that's three-years, man. That's not good. Now, he has a broken finger because he chose to fight another player--a rookie at that? That doesn't look good for his image as a guy trying to rehab only to get hurt again. Harbaugh said that we needed production and not just potential--if that's true, how does Pitta help us if he is constantly hurt? 

Roster spots are equally as important as cap, and while I'd love to have Pitta here, I wouldn't want to do it at the expense of a young guy who shows potential and can also produce on ST. That's value. Pitta doesn't help us if he's hurt, and while I was all for giving him a chance to return (you can look at my post history if you want to scour the forum for the subject), but I have maintained that we should wait and see with him; however, I like what I am seeing from some of these borderline guys, and while I love Pitta, he may be a luxury we can't afford due to roster space.

[rmw10]

4 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

Right, but you're also talking about releasing another player the team may like who can actually play football without the injuries. Yes, Pitta was a very good player and potentially a top-tier TE when he was healthy; however, he hasn't done much since the Super Bowl run due to injuries in two consecutive years. He missed all of 2013 due to the injury, came back in 2014 and then missed that year, too. Then, he missed all of 2015, too. I mean, that's three-years, man. That's not good. Now, he has a broken finger because he chose to fight another player--a rookie at that? That doesn't look good for his image as a guy trying to rehab only to get hurt again. Harbaugh said that we needed production and not just potential--if that's true, how does Pitta help us if he is constantly hurt? 

Roster spots are equally as important as cap, and while I'd love to have Pitta here, I wouldn't want to do it at the expense of a young guy who shows potential and can also produce on ST. That's value. Pitta doesn't help us if he's hurt, and while I was all for giving him a chance to return (you can look at my post history if you want to scour the forum for the subject), but I have maintained that we should wait and see with him; however, I like what I am seeing from some of these borderline guys, and while I love Pitta, he may be a luxury we can't afford due to roster space.

That's where I'm at.  I was hopeful as long as he could stay healthy (didn't think it'd be this injury though...), but that hasn't been the case.  I still think Pitta could make it so long as he gets back to practice before the regular season, but I can't see us giving a guy a roster spot and waiting on him when he's still a complete unknown.  I don't think you can look back at his past and say he's a reliable, proven guy now.  He might not even be the same game after missing most of the last 3 years.  It's unfortunate, but this injury may have done him in.

[Newsome is Awesome]

10 hours ago, sibelius said:

I like Matt Elam. Always have liked him as a guy. Looking forward to seeing him put it together this year after a strong season and solid showings so far in preseason. 

Don't hold your breath.

I gotta tell you. I've watched a lot of players over the years, but rarely have seen one so much a fish out of water.

Having gone big against Big Stanley, must admit to this point he has not allowed the QB to be harassed.  I think it's an aggregation of things, but the QB has been clean in the pocket.   Elam on the other hand has a track record and tools that aren't fit for the position. What are you gonna do?

Edited August 23, 2016 by Newsome is Awesome

[Newsome is Awesome]

3 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

You may not understand how the fifth-year option works, but it's not something we really negotiate. It's sorta like the franchise tag. There's no negotiating the price. I never said Elam is of the same skill as Reid. I only alluded to the fact that he would likely be paid the same if given the fifth-year option; however, that may be a better question served to the cap guru around here, @B-more Ravor.

Thanx,

But I'm not much interested in Cap Discussions.  They are labored. Any Team can make room for any Player in  regard to Cap.  The Steelers do it all the time.

My view on Cap is that it must be rescinded for the game to be completely enjoyable. When it is rescinded we will see who the good GM's are and  who they are not. I also believe rosters need expanded by at least 10 players and I believe 12 would be a better number with the injuries and concern for player well being. If our roster was 65, I  might understand retaining Elam.

Whatever they pay Elam is too much, because his roster spot is valuable and it strains credibility to say, we have nothing better and can't release him. Every time he is on the field there is jeopardy of losing the game. He can't play the position in the NFL.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Newsome is Awesome

[Filmstudy]

3 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

 

You're talking about costing the team like $4.4M when you could simply make the guy a weekly inactive and hope he returns to form.

I don't see it exactly this way.

1. In the year Pitta is cut, the Ravens are going to take a cap hit.

2. He's 31 and the chance of him being productive in a future year of this contract is low

3. Keeping him on the roster costs a spot for someone else

4. The Ravens have the cap space to cut him now.  Those dollars can be pushed forward to next year, but keeping Pitta eats this year's cap charge plus next year's dead money if you keep him.

After Bmore-Ravor checked my math, he reminded me of restructure for Pitta which lowered 2016 salary to $1M , so the 2016-17 cap hits for Pitta under each permutation:

Cut  in 2016: charge of $6.6M dead money over 2016-17

Keep in 2016, Cut in 2017: Cap charge of $3.2M this season + $4.4M dead money = $7.6M

Keep 2016, 2016: full cap charges of 3.2M + $7.7M = $10.9M (However, Brian points out 2017 salary might be renegotiated down to trim this number).

So even if you look at this as a 2-year cap issue (since they have money this year they can roll forward), there isn't a ton of savings for a cut, it's really about the roster spot and/or desire not to waste the one IR/DTR trigger.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Filmstudy

[Newsome is Awesome]

Well it looks like the Elam debate has been decided by the 15-20% chance of injury.  He had a chip removed from his knee and Lewis has been injured.  It's a race back to active status regarding who makes the roster.

[Edgar]

Pitta is still the best receiving tight end on this roster and he still, despite missing time will be Joe's favorite target.

Their timing and their general connection picks right up where it left off pretty much straight away upon Pitta's returning from injury in 2013 and  starting out 2014.

I'm anxious about his hip but not about his value to this offense. I'd be surprised if he's cut.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Edgar

[RayRocks]

I also think it may be underrated how much cutting Pitta could mess with Joe's psyche.  He's coming back from a serious injury and Pitta is like his security blanket in the offense.  I would want Joe to have every weapon that makes him comfortable at his disposal, especially when he's only going to have at most 1 half of football played before the first game.

[allblackraven]

33 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Pitta is still the best receiving tight end on this roster and he still, despite missing time will be Joe's favorite target.

Their timing and their general connection picks right up where it left off pretty much straight away upon Pitta's returning from injury in 2013 and  starting out 2014.

I'm anxious about his hip but not about his value to this offense. I'd be surprised if he's cut.

 

6 minutes ago, RayRocks said:

I also think it may be underrated how much cutting Pitta could mess with Joe's psyche.  He's coming back from a serious injury and Pitta is like his security blanket in the offense.  I would want Joe to have every weapon that makes him comfortable at his disposal, especially when he's only going to have at most 1 half of football played before the first game.

After 2 years of not having Pitta to throw to, Joe is now used to it. He now has many other legit targets to make his life easier.

[BmoreBird22]

52 minutes ago, Filmstudy said:

 

 

1 hour ago, rmw10 said:

 

 

1 hour ago, GrimCoconut said:

 

Just as a disclaimer, I actually left Pitta off on my most recent pick a roster contest, so I'm not actually saying he will make it.

However, the Ravens have, what, $13M at the moment, give or take? Cutting Pitta will cost around $4.4M factoring in the rule of 51, but when you get the PS and all 53, you're looking at losing a pretty good chunk of roll over for next year when you've got guys like Aiken, Williams, and Wagner. 

Plus, the Ravens can only have 46 players active on game days. We know that Pitta was a play maker, even if we haven't seen it in a live game, and that may be worth more (especially factoring 7 inactives) than maybe the offensive lineman that would be a reserve or the corner that won't see the field and could go to the PS.

I don't know; just a thought.

[sibelius]

1 hour ago, Newsome is Awesome said:

Don't hold your breath.

I gotta tell you. I've watched a lot of players over the years, but rarely have seen one so much a fish out of water.

Having gone big against Big Stanley, must admit to this point he has not allowed the QB to be harassed.  I think it's an aggregation of things, but the QB has been clean in the pocket.   Elam on the other hand has a track record and tools that aren't fit for the position. What are you gonna do?

That's interesting, as you seem to be holding your breath to be proven right about everything except this football team being successful for whatever reason...under multiple aliases...for years now. 

Me? I'm gonna root for this team and go to war with the army we have. 

[ravensdan]

2 hours ago, Newsome is Awesome said:

Thanx,

But I'm not much interested in Cap Discussions.  They are labored. Any Team can make room for any Player in  regard to Cap.  The Steelers do it all the time.

My view on Cap is that it must be rescinded for the game to be completely enjoyable. When it is rescinded we will see who the good GM's are and  who they are not. I also believe rosters need expanded by at least 10 players and I believe 12 would be a better number with the injuries and concern for player well being. If our roster was 65, I  might understand retaining Elam.

Whatever they pay Elam is too much, because his roster spot is valuable and it strains credibility to say, we have nothing better and can't release him. Every time he is on the field there is jeopardy of losing the game. He can't play the position in the NFL.

Teams aren't going to fork over more money for ten more players. And the players aren't going to want to divide the current pie smaller to accommodate. So not happening. 

[kjbmore]

seems like thread had turned into the roster / cut / TE thread

my 2 cents - after reading the article on the front page and just from harbaughs quotes - i cant see pitta getting cut

“It’s absurd that it even happened,” Harbaugh said. “We need to get him back as soon as we can, but it’s not going to be this week. A bone has to heal.”

“I want to get him time to work with Joe but he really can’t catch right now. And he definitely can’t get his finger banged up,” Harbaugh said. “The guy has played a lot of football. We have to get him and Joe timed up. That was really coming early on, which was exciting to see.”

Does not sound like somebody about to get cut.

We give him a spot and we can still wheel out 3 TE's if he's not good to go and if it all turns to poo and has a hip thing again(touch wood be healthy) - waller can come back in 5 or boyle in 10 or we just run with the 3 on the roster

[Newsome is Awesome]

6 hours ago, sibelius said:

 

Me? I'm gonna root for this team and go to war with the army we have. 

Sounds like you're quoting history. Very similar words to what a former Secretary of Defense used.

Bad decisions regarding personnel are bad decisions regarding personnel. Sometimes the leaders are the problem.

[Newsome is Awesome]

4 hours ago, kjbmore said:

seems like thread had turned into the roster / cut / TE thread

my 2 cents - after reading the article on the front page and just from harbaughs quotes - i cant see pitta getting cut

“It’s absurd that it even happened,” Harbaugh said. “We need to get him back as soon as we can, but it’s not going to be this week. A bone has to heal.”

“I want to get him time to work with Joe but he really can’t catch right now. And he definitely can’t get his finger banged up,” Harbaugh said. “The guy has played a lot of football. We have to get him and Joe timed up. That was really coming early on, which was exciting to see.”

Does not sound like somebody about to get cut.

We give him a spot and we can still wheel out 3 TE's if he's not good to go and if it all turns to poo and has a hip thing again(touch wood be healthy) - waller can come back in 5 or boyle in 10 or we just run with the 3 on the roster

There is no way Pitta gets cut this season.  My interpretation of RSR is that it was speculative in regard to coming years.  Really that was the only way to interpret it. If it was a genuine belief about this year...well...don't put much stock into the rating system either.

What still bothers me about Pitta's injury is that our high drafted rookie didn't have the common sense to ease off a remarkable veteran making a historic comeback.  It never crossed his mind to not go full out.  That kind of processing mistake will show up on the field. A team needs athletes, but a team is best when those athletes are discerning.

[Newsome is Awesome]

8 hours ago, allblackraven said:

 

After 2 years of not having Pitta to throw to, Joe is now used to it. He now has many other legit targets to make his life easier.

Joe has not come close to his 2012 Championship Run and a big part of that was Pitta.  The other parts were taken, one immediately the other while Pitta was absent.

Joes completion percentage went up last year, but his rating went down.  He threw a lot of dump off balls, which is a hallmark of the Trestman offense. 

The best way to put it is that Flacco has a bunch of new receivers with whom confidence has not been established.  When he works it out with receivers we retain, he'll get back, but "we've" been insisting upon playing musical chairs with his receivers.

[rmw10]

8 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

 

 

Just as a disclaimer, I actually left Pitta off on my most recent pick a roster contest, so I'm not actually saying he will make it.

However, the Ravens have, what, $13M at the moment, give or take? Cutting Pitta will cost around $4.4M factoring in the rule of 51, but when you get the PS and all 53, you're looking at losing a pretty good chunk of roll over for next year when you've got guys like Aiken, Williams, and Wagner. 

Plus, the Ravens can only have 46 players active on game days. We know that Pitta was a play maker, even if we haven't seen it in a live game, and that may be worth more (especially factoring 7 inactives) than maybe the offensive lineman that would be a reserve or the corner that won't see the field and could go to the PS.

I don't know; just a thought.

Oh yeah.  I'm not saying he's gone or anything, but I no longer have him as a lock like I did just a few weeks ago.

[Ravensfan23]

1 hour ago, Newsome is Awesome said:

There is no way Pitta gets cut this season.  My interpretation of RSR is that it was speculative in regard to coming years.  Really that was the only way to interpret it. If it was a genuine belief about this year...well...don't put much stock into the rating system either.

What still bothers me about Pitta's injury is that our high drafted rookie didn't have the common sense to ease off a remarkable veteran making a historic comeback.  It never crossed his mind to not go full out.  That kind of processing mistake will show up on the field. A team needs athletes, but a team is best when those athletes are discerning.

Ugh how about the veteran with a wife and kids, who's missed a total of 43 games out of 50 played and can't afford to miss any more time due to injury be smart enough to not allow his emotions to get the better of him when a rookie practicing for the first time under the bright lights of a NFL stadium gets overzealous?

If Pitta needs to be protected then he never should have been on the field without a red jersey. He made a foolish mistake by getting caught up in a TC fight and now is suffering the consequence for it. 

[Purple_City39]

1 hour ago, Newsome is Awesome said:

Joe has not come close to his 2012 Championship Run and a big part of that was Pitta.  The other parts were taken, one immediately the other while Pitta was absent.

Joes completion percentage went up last year, but his rating went down.  He threw a lot of dump off balls, which is a hallmark of the Trestman offense. 

The best way to put it is that Flacco has a bunch of new receivers with whom confidence has not been established.  When he works it out with receivers we retain, he'll get back, but "we've" been insisting upon playing musical chairs with his receivers.

Nobody has come close to that playoff run and nobody will for awhile.  And even still, there were far too many other parts involved in that for a heavy amount of credit to be put on Pitta's back.

Now if you mean the regular season, 2014 was better and Pitta wasn't around for that year at all but it was Joe's best season.  Dennis simply as big of a factor as he was meant to be going into 2013.  Giving up a roster spot to a healthy body for his recovery is a mistake imo.  And with Watson likely set to be the #1 TE, Pitta will do nothing but take away reps from the young and developing Maxx Williams.

All that said, I don't think they cut him unless they can get an injury waiver scenario going (although I'm not sure how that affects the cap)

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, Newsome is Awesome said:

There is no way Pitta gets cut this season.  My interpretation of RSR is that it was speculative in regard to coming years.  Really that was the only way to interpret it. If it was a genuine belief about this year...well...don't put much stock into the rating system either.

What still bothers me about Pitta's injury is that our high drafted rookie didn't have the common sense to ease off a remarkable veteran making a historic comeback.  It never crossed his mind to not go full out.  That kind of processing mistake will show up on the field. A team needs athletes, but a team is best when those athletes are discerning.

Because when pitta comes back he'll be eased into real game action right? 

And by all means, let's blame correa Because pitta didn't have the common sense to not PUNCH A HELMET because he was mad about getting lit up in a contact practice. Maybe instead of the rookie playing like he has no fire, the veteran should treat football like football and not be a diva and expect special treatment. If he doesn't have a red jersey then he is taking hits.

[rmw10]

51 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Ugh how about the veteran with a wife and kids, who's missed a total of 43 games out of 50 played and can't afford to miss any more time due to injury be smart enough to not allow his emotions to get the better of him when a rookie practicing for the first time under the bright lights of a NFL stadium gets overzealous?

If Pitta needs to be protected then he never should have been on the field without a red jersey. He made a foolish mistake by getting caught up in a TC fight and now is suffering the consequence for it. 

I'm not even mad at him or anything.  He just unfortunately made a bad choice that could end up costing him years of work in this comeback attempt.  Sucks to be him, but you know, you can't wait around forever for the guy.

[January J]

13 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

Yeah. I mean, if Harbaugh said Campanaro is a great player but doesn't do much to help the team if he can't stay healthy, then why can't we expand that same statement onto Pitta--especially if the injury is one he himself contributed towards? I think that's a bigger issue than many realize, and I think Harbaugh may not have necessarily been singling out Campanaro with that statement as much as saying that guys need to stay healthy. I think parting with Pitta is very possible. 

I think pitta has earned a little more Lee way when it comes to this. He has had productive seasons under his belt unlike camp who is just potential. Now i know there's several different ways at looking at it and I hope they both can make it. Its just unbelievably bad luck to work that hard to get back  and then screw it up with a freaking finger injury. But it was self inflicted so he has no one to blame but himself if he doesn't make it. They have been extremely patient with him. That said the way Harbs was talking it didn't sound like pitta is on the cusp of being cut. Esp if he can get back before game 4 of preseason.

11 hours ago, Edgar said:

Pitta is still the best receiving tight end on this roster and he still, despite missing time will be Joe's favorite target.

Their timing and their general connection picks right up where it left off pretty much straight away upon Pitta's returning from injury in 2013 and  starting out 2014.

I'm anxious about his hip but not about his value to this offense. I'd be surprised if he's cut.

Yeah the rapport between him and Joe is next to none and priceless. Its just like they know what each other is thinking and that is extremely valuable. They picked up right where they left off and I just hope we havent seen the end of the Flacco to pitta connection. I just want to see them on the feild together for one more season and just light it up. Before his last injury  pitta had like 16 catches in the first two games and was just dominating.  Let's hope something so stupid doesn't take away from all the work he's done to get back out there. 

[Ravensfan23]

48 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I'm not even mad at him or anything.  He just unfortunately made a bad choice that could end up costing him years of work in this comeback attempt.  Sucks to be him, but you know, you can't wait around forever for the guy.

Oh I'm not mad either it's part of the game. Fights in TC happen all the time. But I definitely won't blame KC and make it seem like he's not competent enough to know Pitta can't afford to get hurt. That's Pitta's job. If he was hurt on a late hit or some type of foul play then I could see that but in a minor tussle not. 

[rossihunter2]

5 hours ago, Newsome is Awesome said:

Sounds like you're quoting history. Very similar words to what a former Secretary of Defense used.

Bad decisions regarding personnel are bad decisions regarding personnel. Sometimes the leaders are the problem.

maybe they are (i doubt it) but what's the point in rooting against your own team even if you have bad leadership - you might as well, i dunno, support a different team? if people gave up on teams with bad leadership then half the teams in the league wouldnt have any fans at all - especially the browns