Pick the last safety

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

10 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I don't think anything is squarely right now. Lewis not being a practice is a huge opportunity for Brooks and it seems like he's taking full advantage of it. Brooks started the season as the 3rd FS because both Webb and Lewis finished the season in front of him last season. However over the last week leading up to the preseason game Brooks started getting more and more 2nd team reps with Elam. Now with Lewis out he's getting all the 2nd team reps and the pair of Elam and Brooks are actually getting first team reps as well. Obviously Weddle and Webb are firmly entrenched as the 1st team guys but I think the Ravens want to see just how Elam and Brooks looks with the 1s. If Lewis doesn't return to practice tomorrow, I doubt he'll play in Indy and that means Brooks will have nearly the entire game to again stake his claim to be the backup FS to Webb. 

I honestly don't think the decision will come down to Elam and Brooks. I think It's Brooks vs Lewis and I think that even if Lewis was healthy Brooks may have very well leapfrogged him in practice this week. 

didnt you sort of make the case that Brooks is clearly the  5th safety?

Weddle Webb are the clear 1-2. Lewis is 3, but since he's out Elam and Brooks are playing with the twos and getting some opportunity with the ones, with Elam getting more of that opportunity. So, Elam/Brooks kinda on the same level but Elam, at least from what ive seen, read and heard is a little ahead of brooks right now in terms of opportunity with the ones.

So, that would make Elam 3 and Brooks 4. Sure they could both bypass Lewis when he comes back, but until that happens we have to assume Lewis is where he was... which means Brooks is 5th until noted otherwise.

[Underdogsontop!]

On August 17, 2016 at 9:46 AM, JoeyFlex5 said:

Levine and Lewis are both far superior to either of them 

Bro, if they were far more superior, us nor the front office would have this debate. 

[Underdogsontop!]

I  liked Elam coming out of college and he did ok his 1st year in the NFL. After that I'm not sure about him.  Regardless if our front office had asked him to play out of position. He missed a lot of tackles in games. He plays to high at times and doesn't break down to make tackles. He did it in last weeks game against Carolina. He knew it was a terrible tackle that got saved by his teammates. He even was shaking his head. Commentator gave him credit for disrupting the play though cause it could have went for more yards. But still he can't be missing tackles at a NFL level. I like brooks more then Elam. I like Webb but his injuries worry me. I'm not a fan of Kendrick Lewis. I like Levine, but not sure what our FO is trying to make of him. He's a pretty decent special teams guy though. So for me it's Weddle, Webb, Brooks, and Levine. 

[JoeyFlex5]

23 minutes ago, Underdogsontop! said:

Bro, if they were far more superior, us nor the front office would have this debate. 

Not true. More investment in Elam and Brooks. If Elam or Brooks was a FA signed for a 3 yr 4mil deal they would've been cut after one season with their play. Levine costs next to nothing and has done More than both of them combined, and Lewis, as bad as he was, performed better than either of them.

They're just waiting it out to see if they make the leap, but as of now they haven't even come close to doing so.

That's for the front office. For us having this debate, well it's a forum and that is what it's here for, debate and discussion, and the average is gonna root for a terrence Brooks or Elam due to college hype and don't appreciate the dirty work versatile guys like Levine.

Edited August 18, 2016 by JoeyFlex5

[Ravensfan23]

7 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

didnt you sort of make the case that Brooks is clearly the  5th safety?

If i did make that case that wasn't my intention. I haven't been out at practice enough to know where the reps are going, this is just from what i've seen. I'd say Brooks is the 5th safety because that's how those guys were played in the 1st preseason game. However the 2nd and 3rd games tell much more of the story in terms of what plans the team has. 

Just like you said Brooks is 5th until otherwise shown different. 

[rmcjacket23]

13 minutes ago, Underdogsontop! said:

I  liked Elam coming out of college and he did ok his 1st year in the NFL. After that I'm not sure about him.  Regardless if our front office had asked him to play out of position. He missed a lot of tackles in games. He plays to high at times and doesn't break down to make tackles. He did it in last weeks game against Carolina. He knew it was a terrible tackle that got saved by his teammates. He even was shaking his head. Commentator gave him credit for disrupting the play though cause it could have went for more yards. But still he can't be missing tackles at a NFL level. I like brooks more then Elam. I like Webb but his injuries worry me. I'm not a fan of Kendrick Lewis. I like Levine, but not sure what our FO is trying to make of him. He's a pretty decent special teams guy though. So for me it's Weddle, Webb, Brooks, and Levine. 

1. I'd like for somebody to actually show what playing "out of position" means in this context? Is that what people say when comparing SS to FS, a role that really hasn't been clearly defined in our defensive scheme for quite some time now?

2. As far as I can tell, Elam's role in 2014 would be the same as the one he would be expected to do in 2016. He's not going to be a starter unless injury occurs, so if he wants playing time, he's going to be asked to, at the very least, be a middle of the field coverage player who's expected to cover TEs, RBs, slot WRs, etc. 

If that's not a role that suits him well, then I don't see why he is on this team anymore. You really can't be a safety, regardless of whether its SS or FS, in this league anymore if you can't do those things at least moderately well.

And we haven't gotten to his biggest weakness from 2014... tackling. Just horrendous tackling. And most of it was mechanical and technique-based, which is even more disturbing.

[PurpleCity5]

I have to say we would roll the dice on keeping Elam. Brooks has not done much(Same as Elam case) but how many big plays has Brooks made? I mean lets be honest here. Elam has made more plays, In face he's made much more plays than Brooks ever has. He hasn't recorded one interception for this team and while he hasn't had the time that Elam has had on the field, it doesn't mean that the opportunities weren't present. Elam not only created more turnovers but has also made big plays. I understand that he has looked awful at times but Brooks hasn't been better honestly. 

[Boddiebroadus]

36 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. I'd like for somebody to actually show what playing "out of position" means in this context? Is that what people say when comparing SS to FS, a role that really hasn't been clearly defined in our defensive scheme for quite some time now?

2. As far as I can tell, Elam's role in 2014 would be the same as the one he would be expected to do in 2016. He's not going to be a starter unless injury occurs, so if he wants playing time, he's going to be asked to, at the very least, be a middle of the field coverage player who's expected to cover TEs, RBs, slot WRs, etc. 

If that's not a role that suits him well, then I don't see why he is on this team anymore. You really can't be a safety, regardless of whether its SS or FS, in this league anymore if you can't do those things at least moderately well.

And we haven't gotten to his biggest weakness from 2014... tackling. Just horrendous tackling. And most of it was mechanical and technique-based, which is even more disturbing.

As far as out of position they asked him to play slot corner a lot his second season. And as far as that missed tackle you're talking about, he split the blockers and had to cut back to make the tackle. He should have took on the blocker and make him cut back in but it had the same effect 

[jimmypowder]

They will keep Elam because he was a 1st round pick . It's as simple as that . 

 

[BmoreBird22]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. I'd like for somebody to actually show what playing "out of position" means in this context? Is that what people say when comparing SS to FS, a role that really hasn't been clearly defined in our defensive scheme for quite some time now?

I think the Ravens would love to have a FS that is able to play single high in a cover one or three. That allows for more versatility in the looks and the NFL is really trending to a Cover three defensive scheme.

[RayRocks]

1 hour ago, jimmypowder said:

They will keep Elam because he was a 1st round pick . It's as simple as that . 

 

I don't think it's as easy as that.  This will be our last year with Elam, even if we keep him, so the logic could be that if Brooks and Elam are relatively equal right now, they'll keep Brooks since we'll get him for 1 more year.  However, my hope is they'll keep both and get rid of Lewis.  I honestly don't think a player of Lewis' caliber is even that difficult to find in the middle of the season.

[rmcjacket23]

3 hours ago, Boddiebroadus said:

As far as out of position they asked him to play slot corner a lot his second season. And as far as that missed tackle you're talking about, he split the blockers and had to cut back to make the tackle. He should have took on the blocker and make him cut back in but it had the same effect 

Right, and I don't suspect his role as a backup safety would be any different. If he gets snaps without an injury, it would almost certainly be in nickel or dime packages as an added DB, likely in the middle of the field.

I'm not referencing any one missed tackle specifically. I'm saying overall, in many occasions, his tackling was terrible in 2014. I'll never bash a guy for missing A single tackle.

[rmcjacket23]

2 hours ago, RayRocks said:

I don't think it's as easy as that.  This will be our last year with Elam, even if we keep him, so the logic could be that if Brooks and Elam are relatively equal right now, they'll keep Brooks since we'll get him for 1 more year.  However, my hope is they'll keep both and get rid of Lewis.  I honestly don't think a player of Lewis' caliber is even that difficult to find in the middle of the season.

But based on what we've seen so far from Elam and Brooks, not so sure they're not easily replaceable mid-season either.

[Maryland]

Hopefully more preseason gives us a better idea of what'll happen.

Brooks always seems to be just a step behind where he should be, and he has made some mental errors in the past. Elam looked like he was around the ball and diagnosing plays pretty well last week, but I still doubt he can tackle reliably. Lewis is somewhere between average and below average as a FS; he seems like he diagnoses plays correctly, but he is just a bit late/slow getting there. Levine sounds like he's going to be a hybrid LB/S and count more as a LB, so I'm not including him among the safeties. 

I'm hoping both Brooks and Elam show enough improvement to secure roster spots ahead of Lewis, but I doubt that happens. I feel like Elam's problems with tackling are unlikely to ever be fixed, but he's better at making splash plays. Brooks' problems with the mental part of the game could possibly be improved with more experience, but this being his 3rd season, he probably won't improve much anyway. I guess I'd keep Lewis and Elam over Brooks knowing what I know now, which is based mostly on 1 preseason game this year and 2014 (which is when Brooks and Elam were last healthy). We'll all have a better idea in a few weeks; what we have to go on right now is mostly dated information and TC rumors. 

Also, I'm pretty sure Pees has kept as many as 5 safeties and 5 CBs in the past, so we could end up keeping all 5. I'm pretty sure we started 2014 with 6 safeties (Darian Stewart, Will Hill, Brooks, Elam, Levine, Jeromy Miles/Brandon Trawick) and a surprisingly low 4 CBs (Webb, Jimmy, Asa Jackson, Chykie Brown). Granted, this was a huge mistake, and I'm sure they've learned from this, but it wouldn't entirely shock me if they kept all 5 safeties. 

[January J]

Does anybody know if there would be any significant savings if we cut Kendrick? I am thinking we go  with Elam and Lewis- but if its close then $$$ could be the deciding factor.

[rmcjacket23]

13 minutes ago, January J said:

Does anybody know if there would be any significant savings if we cut Kendrick? I am thinking we go  with Elam and Lewis- but if its close then $$$ could be the deciding factor.

Pretty much no. The cap savings really doesn't mean much at this stage of the season anyway, since we wouldn't need any additional cap space to sign anybody we wanted to anyway.

Not accounting for the Rule of 51 adjustment:

Cutting Lewis saves $1.4M

Cutting Elam saves $1.3M

Cutting Brooks saves $615K

So Lewis and Elam are basically the same price.

[ellicottraven]

I think both are staying put.

[January J]

On August 19, 2016 at 2:25 PM, rmcjacket23 said:

Pretty much no. The cap savings really doesn't mean much at this stage of the season anyway, since we wouldn't need any additional cap space to sign anybody we wanted to anyway.

Not accounting for the Rule of 51 adjustment:

Cutting Lewis saves $1.4M

Cutting Elam saves $1.3M

Cutting Brooks saves $615K

So Lewis and Elam are basically the same price.

Well if the competition between brooks and Lewis is close then it never hurts to roll over close to an additional 1 million  for next year by cutting Lewis. That being said I don't think it's likely. Are there any updates on the Lewis injury? Haven't seen him on the feild at all during camp that I recall and he's not on the PUP. probably bc he started camp and wasn't eligible - I just don't recall him bein out there.

Edited August 21, 2016 by January J

[Ravensfan23]

1 hour ago, January J said:

Well if the competition between brooks and Lewis is close then it never hurts to roll over close to an additional 1 million  for next year by cutting Lewis. That being said I don't think it's likely. Are there any updates on the Lewis injury? Haven't seen him on the feild at all during camp that I recall and he's not on the PUP. probably bc he started camp and wasn't eligible - I just don't recall him bein out there.

Lewis has been at practice the entire camp expect this past week. He played in last weeks game but got injured at some point because like I said he missed all week of practice. Not sure what the injury is and I don't Harbs has given any updates.

If the battle does come down to Lewis vs Brooks, I think it'd be interesting to see how it goes. I think both have done well thus far in Camp and preseason games. I think it'll come down to, do the Ravens give up on a 3rd year former 3rd round pick who seems to be turning the corner, for a veteran who's been solid but clearly wasn't a long term answer at safety? Or do they want to go with more of a veteran presence behind Weddle and Webb? Can they keep 5 safeties with the amount of CBs that may be needed. 

[Willbacker]

This one is too close to call. I do believe both make it cuz of their versatility.

[rmcjacket23]

6 hours ago, January J said:

Well if the competition between brooks and Lewis is close then it never hurts to roll over close to an additional 1 million  for next year by cutting Lewis. That being said I don't think it's likely. Are there any updates on the Lewis injury? Haven't seen him on the feild at all during camp that I recall and he's not on the PUP. probably bc he started camp and wasn't eligible - I just don't recall him bein out there.

Yeah but you could keep Lewis this season, cut him in the offseason (which would likely happen regardless) and still save $1.8M against the 2017 salary cap, so the rollover savings doesn't matter at all really.

[January J]

Just now, rmcjacket23 said:

Yeah but you could keep Lewis this season, cut him in the offseason (which would likely happen regardless) and still save $1.8M against the 2017 salary cap, so the rollover savings doesn't matter at all really.

Right but then brooks would be gone. Which isn't the end of the world obviously but he and Elam both are definitely improving. Not saying that justifies giving him a roster spot over a solid veteran though. Lewis and Elam seem to be the way to go. Would like to see Lewis get back on the feild this week though and see him against Detroit Saturday in some capacity just to gauge where he's at.

[rmcjacket23]

51 minutes ago, January J said:

Right but then brooks would be gone. Which isn't the end of the world obviously but he and Elam both are definitely improving. Not saying that justifies giving him a roster spot over a solid veteran though. Lewis and Elam seem to be the way to go. Would like to see Lewis get back on the feild this week though and see him against Detroit Saturday in some capacity just to gauge where he's at.

Yes Brooks would be gone. I could see us resigning him, since I don't think the market for him will be much, if anything. I also think you could find another Brooks in the middle rounds of most draft classes. Granted you could find somebody with Lewis' experience then also, but just without the experience, which is what I personally prefer in this case.

I won't be losing any sleep if we cut one or the other, or if even both get cut.

[GrimCoconut]

I can't see the team cutting Brooks when we have another year of negotiations with him and he is still developing. Elam is in his final year, and while he could be gone, I think he has played well enough to stick. I would cut Lewis, personally. He's not bad but if Weddle goes down we are in trouble so yeah. 

[Ravensfan23]

1 hour ago, GrimCoconut said:

I can't see the team cutting Brooks when we have another year of negotiations with him and he is still developing. Elam is in his final year, and while he could be gone, I think he has played well enough to stick. I would cut Lewis, personally. He's not bad but if Weddle goes down we are in trouble so yeah. 

If Weddle goes down things aren't ideal whether it's Lewis, Elam or Brooks stepping imo. I honestly think this team is better off with Brooks at FS than Lewis. I know that is probably a unpopular opinion and most will see it as a fan favorite pick, but I've been extremely impressed with Brooks this preseason. He is really stepping up. He's playing much faster and with no hesitation like he did his first two years. 

He seems to have a better understanding of the defense and what his responsibilities are.

[trevorsteadman]

8 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

If Weddle goes down things aren't ideal whether it's Lewis, Elam or Brooks stepping imo. I honestly think this team is better off with Brooks at FS than Lewis. I know that is probably a unpopular opinion and most will see it as a fan favorite pick, but I've been extremely impressed with Brooks this preseason. He is really stepping up. He's playing much faster and with no hesitation like he did his first two years. 

He seems to have a better understanding of the defense and what his responsibilities are.

If Weddle goes down then Webb would obviously be the FS since both are free safety type players... Kendrick is better at the line of scrimmage and playing the ball, he would be the SS role. If this team really has Webb down in the box a lot other than blitzing here and there he will get ran over. Great hands and good vision of where plays are going but he always gets ran over by medium to big sized backs. 

[Boddiebroadus]

Elam to have his knee scoped not season ending though but will miss significant time. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Elams injury likely makes the initial roster decision easy at least. Doesn't look like he'll be ready to go by seasons start so I think Lewis and Brooks make it. 

Elam either gets IR or let go with an injury settlement with the opportunity to bring him back once healthy. 

And with the new IR designation rules we can put him on IR and wait to see if anyone more important goes down that'd be worth designating to return. And if not you can give Elam that designation and bring him back later. 

But for now at least I think Brooks and Lewis both make the initial 53. We take 4 safeties now counting Levine who can play there if needed but looks like he'll be used prominantly in the dime backer role. 

[terrynjulia03]

Really think it's down more to Elam and Lewis. Brooks is pretty much safe. He's cheap, healthy and we have him for this year and next, again cheap. Now just looking at players strengths you have Elam and Levine backing up Weddle at SS. And Lewis and Brooks backing up Webb at FS. We already know Brooks is safe, remember draft pick and cheap. Levine is that Swiss Army knife kinda guy the Ravens love.

IF everyone was healthy it's obvious Lewis is the odd man out. Scared to tackle, suspect in coverage. With Elams injury I'm betting he goes on IR to start with designated to return, and when he does Lewis gets cut for the spot. Unless other unforeseen injuries happen, which of course is a probability.