The good bad and ugly Pre-Season 1

[BmoreBird22]

11 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

And Brooks had a pretty good game, too.  That competition certainly didn't become any clearer, and it's actually for good reasons this time.

I've always thought they'd carry 5 and count Levine toward the ILB's. I'm more than willing to keep Brooks and Elam if I'm the Ravens because it looks like the lights are coming on.

[rmcjacket23]

2 hours ago, jazz1988 said:

I see that you have already been informed about Crennel and Lewis connection .Kendrick Lewis was signed to The Texans in 2014 on a one year deal; it was stated The Texans wanted Kendrick Lewis back but he decided  to sign with The Ravens after they  had signed  safety Rahim Moore. If you would like further information on this situation especially the part where it states Romeo Crennel wanting Kendrick Lewis back then go here  . 

I actually think Lewis does have trade value if Romeo Crennel still likes him enough and I'm betting he does . My overall point is this if Elam,Brooks and Levine continue to practice well and play well then why shouldn't The Ravens be in favor to keep the guys that's more versatile and faster ?especially when versatility and speed is what the defense needs.

I'm not really concerned about them making mental mistakes because I think Leslie Frazier, Eric Weddle and Ladarius Webb well help alot with that.

Cool. So lets just swap Lewis to the Texans for a future 6th or 7th round pick (who likely won't make the team) and lets let Elam and Brooks fight over which safety we have the least possible confidence in be the backup to Webb, who is extremely durable and has proven he's an excellent safety.

I mean its not like anybody really thinks Lewis is fetching like a day 2 pick here. We've flipped much better players for much, much less than that.

And at the end of the day, practice is practice. Its borderline easy to look good in practice. I've got much better and much lengthier game film on Lewis than I do on Elam or Levine. That's why I'd trust him more.

Edited August 15, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[Ravensfan23]

30 minutes ago, Filmstudy said:

Levine probably won't get a ton better, but he's being cast into a FAR more important role as the dime.  Because he'll be on the field for the highest leverage downs, his impact on the team can be much greater than it ever has been.  

And the guys who excel at the dime have always been journeymen.  You never have Eric Berry or Ed Reed as your dime.

Really don't think Levine fills that role. Yes he's being casted there and had some success in preseason game #1 but I ultimately see that role filled by a combination of Elam and/or Brooks. I like Levine and think he brings a ton of value to the team, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him be one of those really talented guys who ends up falling victim to the numbers game. 

Just looking at the numbers at that position, i think Levine gets the short end of the stick and it sucks. Let's just look at the position from a numbers and status standpoint. The Ravens typically keep 10-11 guys in the secondary if i remember correctly. I can't see Levine in the top 11 right now.

Smith, Wright, Weddle, Webb, Young and Canady will be here no matter what. Only injury keeps those guys off the 53.

Powers and Davis are guys the team is high on and I personally see Davis starting before the year ends.

Brooks and Elam are two young drafted guys who the Ravens still have hope for. How much hope they have isn't known but both guys are showing well for themselves thus far. 

Lewis is a guy who the team seems to really like and again thus far he's doing nothing to change their mind this year. 

Lastly there is Price. The team really seems to like his size and length. He's filled in for Jimmy a lot during training camp getting 1st team reps and even in the Preseason game, it was he and Davis who spent the most time outside once Smith and Wright exited. 

By my count that's 12 guys and Levine hasn't even been mentioned yet. Are all these guys locks to make it, no. And Levine could definitely leapfrog someone before the season. However I think his role will have to be more then a Dime and Special teams player to make this roster. 

 

[Ravensfan23]

40 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I've always thought they'd carry 5 and count Levine toward the ILB's. I'm more than willing to keep Brooks and Elam if I'm the Ravens because it looks like the lights are coming on.

The problem with counting Levine towards the ILBs is he still falls victim to the numbers. His ST value will make it tough to part ways with him, but the Ravens always seem to have a ST Ace emerge once the previous ST guy is released. 

So lets look at the LB group as a whole. First of all I think the offense will claim 2 or 3 roster spots that would normally go to the defense. With, 4RBs 4TEs and potentially 7WRs there will be a position or two with short numbers on defense. 

So at LB you have Suggs, Doom, Correa, Mosley, Orr, McCelllan and ZDS as locks. Then you have Judon who was a 5th round pick and thus far is developing well as a DE/OLB. So that's 8 LBs total. Where does Levine fit in?

[January J]

28 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Really don't think Levine fills that role. Yes he's being casted there and had some success in preseason game #1 but I ultimately see that role filled by a combination of Elam and/or Brooks. I like Levine and think he brings a ton of value to the team, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him be one of those really talented guys who ends up falling victim to the numbers game. 

Just looking at the numbers at that position, i think Levine gets the short end of the stick and it sucks. Let's just look at the position from a numbers and status standpoint. The Ravens typically keep 10-11 guys in the secondary if i remember correctly. I can't see Levine in the top 11 right now.

Smith, Wright, Weddle, Webb, Young and Canady will be here no matter what. Only injury keeps those guys off the 53.

Powers and Davis are guys the team is high on and I personally see Davis starting before the year ends.

Brooks and Elam are two young drafted guys who the Ravens still have hope for. How much hope they have isn't known but both guys are showing well for themselves thus far. 

Lewis is a guy who the team seems to really like and again thus far he's doing nothing to change their mind this year. 

Lastly there is Price. The team really seems to like his size and length. He's filled in for Jimmy a lot during training camp getting 1st team reps and even in the Preseason game, it was he and Davis who spent the most time outside once Smith and Wright exited. 

By my count that's 12 guys and Levine hasn't even been mentioned yet. Are all these guys locks to make it, no. And Levine could definitely leapfrog someone before the season. However I think his role will have to be more then a Dime and Special teams player to make this roster. 

 

I think Levine is a lock due to his versatility. The team does like price but I think they see him as a practice squad guy. The battle I can't predict right now is brooks and Elam..can't see us keeping both with the way the numbers game is shaking out. If I was to guess I'd say they give Elam one more shot only because they invested more in him and he was looking so strong before his injury last year and he's hungry to come back and prove to everybody why he was a first rounder. I like brooks too and they're both making plays so it will be quite a battle. The one guy I'm really not sure about and have no clue if he'll make the team is canady. I don't know how the coaches feel about him..haven't seen him play and don't know if we have a spot for him..I think he becomes a casualty to the numbers game and we attempt to PS him. Did he even play against Carolina? Don't recall seein him at all.

[rmw10]

1 hour ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Really don't think Levine fills that role. Yes he's being casted there and had some success in preseason game #1 but I ultimately see that role filled by a combination of Elam and/or Brooks. I like Levine and think he brings a ton of value to the team, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him be one of those really talented guys who ends up falling victim to the numbers game. 

Just looking at the numbers at that position, i think Levine gets the short end of the stick and it sucks. Let's just look at the position from a numbers and status standpoint. The Ravens typically keep 10-11 guys in the secondary if i remember correctly. I can't see Levine in the top 11 right now.

Smith, Wright, Weddle, Webb, Young and Canady will be here no matter what. Only injury keeps those guys off the 53.

Powers and Davis are guys the team is high on and I personally see Davis starting before the year ends.

Brooks and Elam are two young drafted guys who the Ravens still have hope for. How much hope they have isn't known but both guys are showing well for themselves thus far. 

Lewis is a guy who the team seems to really like and again thus far he's doing nothing to change their mind this year. 

Lastly there is Price. The team really seems to like his size and length. He's filled in for Jimmy a lot during training camp getting 1st team reps and even in the Preseason game, it was he and Davis who spent the most time outside once Smith and Wright exited. 

By my count that's 12 guys and Levine hasn't even been mentioned yet. Are all these guys locks to make it, no. And Levine could definitely leapfrog someone before the season. However I think his role will have to be more then a Dime and Special teams player to make this roster. 

 

I'd have to completely disagree, regardless of whether Levine is counted as a LB or S.  There are definitely numbers but that's all they are.  At the end of the day, Levine contributes.  He's a ST guy now with the versatility to play multiple positions in a pinch.  This coming from a big fan of Brooks - but I see no way they take Brooks over Levine.  They haven't trusted Brooks for several years now and I don't think that's changing now - at least to the point where they're taking him over someone they know can contribute.  It's definitely a crowded roster battle, but Levine is a near lock for me.

And to the first point, I don't see how Levine wouldn't fill that role.  That's where he's been practicing all summer, with Elam taking reps here and there.  No Brooks whatsoever, it sounds like.

[sibelius]

I think this is a team that's going to be able to pick up first downs on the ground late in games. I'm excited for the possibility. 

[Ravensfan23]

23 minutes ago, January J said:

I think Levine is a lock due to his versatility. The team does like price but I think they see him as a practice squad guy. The battle I can't predict right now is brooks and Elam..can't see us keeping both with the way the numbers game is shaking out. If I was to guess I'd say they give Elam one more shot only because they invested more in him and he was looking so strong before his injury last year and he's hungry to come back and prove to everybody why he was a first rounder. I like brooks too and they're both making plays so it will be quite a battle. The one guy I'm really not sure about and have no clue if he'll make the team is canady. I don't know how the coaches feel about him..haven't seen him play and don't know if we have a spot for him..I think he becomes a casualty to the numbers game and we attempt to PS him. Did he even play against Carolina? Don't recall seein him at all.

No he didn't play, he returned to practice the day before the game I believe. He'll certainly play this game if he remains healthy. Also before his injury he was sai to be performing well. 

As for Price, I think the team really likes him. Not sure there is space for both he and Canady as those long lengthy CBs behind Jimmy, but I really think they want to have two guys with size on the outside at CB. They thought they had it with Melvin but he didn't work out. I really think Price has a great shot to make the team and he'll have to play his way off the team imo. 

It'll be hard to cut either of Brooks or Elam imo, especially if those young guys continue to make plays. They finally have a guy in Weddle to learn from and they seem to be responding well to it. I'm not saying neither guy is cut, but I certain think either one of them would be kept over Levine. 

I really love Levine's versatility. But sometimes being a jack of all trades isn't as good when you don't have at least one defined role. Now he is a great Special Teams player and Harbs loves his ST units but is that enough? In years past I would say yes, but this year Idk. While many think the news of the Ravens using him at ILB is good, I don't. I just see that as another jack of all trades move to see if you can find a spot for him. If he was a legit option at Safety there is no way you move him to ILB imo. 

[Ravensfan23]

1 hour ago, rmw10 said:

I'd have to completely disagree, regardless of whether Levine is counted as a LB or S.  There are definitely numbers but that's all they are.  At the end of the day, Levine contributes.  He's a ST guy now with the versatility to play multiple positions in a pinch.  This coming from a big fan of Brooks - but I see no way they take Brooks over Levine.  They haven't trusted Brooks for several years now and I don't think that's changing now - at least to the point where they're taking him over someone they know can contribute.  It's definitely a crowded roster battle, but Levine is a near lock for me.

And to the first point, I don't see how Levine wouldn't fill that role.  That's where he's been practicing all summer, with Elam taking reps here and there.  No Brooks whatsoever, it sounds like.

It's not that Levine wouldn't nor can't, I just don't see it. When I was at practice it wasn't Levine practicing there with the 1s or the 2s, it was the 3rd unit where he saw time there. Weddle didn't practice that day and Lewis stepped in next to Webb. With Brooks as the 3rd safety. Neither Weddle or Elam was on the field that day. Maybe they were trying to give Brooks a look but he was the top reserve safety that day. 

In terms of the trust factor, can you really see the Ravens giving up on a 3rd round pick who is entering only his 3rd year, finally healthy and showing signs of the guy you drafted? I'm not saying he can't nor won't be cut but it'd be tough. 

I hate to make this statement because it'll sound like i'm bashing Levine, but other then ST where does he contribute? Again it's nice to be a jack of all trades but if you never see time at those positions when the team really needs you, where's the value? Out of the 6 players who lined up at safety last year Lewis, Hill, Brooks, Trawick, Levine and Webb, Levine saw the least amount of snaps of them all with a total of 10. We had guys coming fresh off the streets to play CB for this team last year. I even got a call to tryout, but I thought it was a prank so I didn't respond lol. But seriously the team tried almost everything at CB last year, but Levine never got a shot to play there. So if he couldn't pinch in at CB last year when you needed all hands on deck, where's his value at that position this year, when the team seems to have 5-7 guys they really like?  

Both Hill and Lewis basically held down the Safety position last year until Webb was moved there but when there was a 3rd safety or a sub it was either Brooks with 65 defensive snaps or Trawick with 87. So again it's great to have versatility but if he's never used where's the value? Now you have Weddle and Webb back there, you still have Lewis who they like and will probably be top reserve and both Elam and Brooks seem to be stepping up. If he couldn't get time over Trawick and Brooks last season, what has he done to be trusted to get time over Lewis, Elam and Brooks this year? Not that those guys are great but he still has to leapfrog them. You say the names I listed ahead of him are just numbers, but where is his on field production to justify a spot?

You say he contributes and I agree. He contributes on Special Teams but to what degree? Levine is far from the Ace of the ST unit and while valuable he's definitely not irreplaceable. Obviously tackles  aren't everything, but in 400+ ST snaps, Levine had 6 total. So Trawick played just as many ST snaps as Levine, had more ST tackles than Levine, saw more meaningful defensive snaps than Levine and he was allowed to walk but Levine is too valuable to cut? to take it a step farther, as much as Harbs values ST , guys like Jeremy Miles, Chikye Brown, Anthony Allen, Nakamura, BA, David Reed, have had a lot bigger impact on ST then Levine has over the past two season and have been cut the following season. 

So simply put, other than his versatility that never really shows up and his good, but not great, special teams play, where is his value to this team. If the final roster spot comes down to he and Brooks I think it's Brooks hands down. 

 

[AnthonyGames]

People that really jumped off the screen to me:

-Dixon- his speed/burst, along with his ability to make moves in space really blew me away. Just with that small sample size, it is obvious this kid is special. Buck Allen really looked like the odd man out, although he looks natural catching the ball out of the backfield...

-Stanley- for his first time out, he looked very in control. He looked strong and athletic, especially on the play where he had that beautiful pull block. A left tackle with that strength and mobility is rare. 

-Arthur Brown- no love for Brown? I thought he looked scary fast at the linebacker position. The way he charged the gaps and the ball carrier looked great. He also showed some good potential in pass coverage. I think he is the perfect complement to Mosley. I hope he makes some big plays in the next few preseason games. I feel we haven't seen his potential since being drafted in the second round. 

-Z. Smith- looked great at rushing the passer and setting edge. Rotating him in with Doom and Suggs will be good. 

-Brooks- looked hungry. Looked like he wanted to make plays. Looked fast around the ball. Solid in coverage and tackling!

-I also think Carl Davis looked good in run support. 

[Filmstudy]

1 hour ago, Ravensfan23 said:

It's not that Levine wouldn't nor can't, I just don't see it. When I was at practice it wasn't Levine practicing there with the 1s or the 2s, it was the 3rd unit where he saw time there. Weddle didn't practice that day and Lewis stepped in next to Webb. With Brooks as the 3rd safety. Neither Weddle or Elam was on the field that day. Maybe they were trying to give Brooks a look but he was the top reserve safety that day. 

In terms of the trust factor, can you really see the Ravens giving up on a 3rd round pick who is entering only his 3rd year, finally healthy and showing signs of the guy you drafted? I'm not saying he can't nor won't be cut but it'd be tough. 

I hate to make this statement because it'll sound like i'm bashing Levine, but other then ST where does he contribute? Again it's nice to be a jack of all trades but if you never see time at those positions when the team really needs you, where's the value? Out of the 6 players who lined up at safety last year Lewis, Hill, Brooks, Trawick, Levine and Webb, Levine saw the least amount of snaps of them all with a total of 10. We had guys coming fresh off the streets to play CB for this team last year. I even got a call to tryout, but I thought it was a prank so I didn't respond lol. But seriously the team tried almost everything at CB last year, but Levine never got a shot to play there. So if he couldn't pinch in at CB last year when you needed all hands on deck, where's his value at that position this year, when the team seems to have 5-7 guys they really like?  

Both Hill and Lewis basically held down the Safety position last year until Webb was moved there but when there was a 3rd safety or a sub it was either Brooks with 65 defensive snaps or Trawick with 87. So again it's great to have versatility but if he's never used where's the value? Now you have Weddle and Webb back there, you still have Lewis who they like and will probably be top reserve and both Elam and Brooks seem to be stepping up. If he couldn't get time over Trawick and Brooks last season, what has he done to be trusted to get time over Lewis, Elam and Brooks this year? Not that those guys are great but he still has to leapfrog them. You say the names I listed ahead of him are just numbers, but where is his on field production to justify a spot?

You say he contributes and I agree. He contributes on Special Teams but to what degree? Levine is far from the Ace of the ST unit and while valuable he's definitely not irreplaceable. Obviously tackles  aren't everything, but in 400+ ST snaps, Levine had 6 total. So Trawick played just as many ST snaps as Levine, had more ST tackles than Levine, saw more meaningful defensive snaps than Levine and he was allowed to walk but Levine is too valuable to cut? to take it a step farther, as much as Harbs values ST , guys like Jeremy Miles, Chikye Brown, Anthony Allen, Nakamura, BA, David Reed, have had a lot bigger impact on ST then Levine has over the past two season and have been cut the following season. 

So simply put, other than his versatility that never really shows up and his good, but not great, special teams play, where is his value to this team. If the final roster spot comes down to he and Brooks I think it's Brooks hands down. 

 

In practice Levine is paired with Arthur Brown on a unit, but that's not related to down/distance/game situation.  It's just a way to divide the reps.  Suffice it to say, Pees would never want Levine in the game on 1st and 10 unless it was an obvious passing situation (end of half or game, for example).  So I wouldn't look at the no-tackle practice pairings as having significant portent.

In fact, after watching practice, it was very obvious how he would be used in terms of down and distance and that's exactly what happened on his 18 snaps Thursday (every one a high-likelihood passing snap).

No one else is practicing for the dime role.  Pees mentioned Elam has taken a few snaps in the role, but he's not practicing with the LBs like Levine is.  Matt would be the next logical choice, but the job is clearly Levine's to lose.

In terms of future value, neither player has option value.  Both are in contract years, because the Ravens did not pick up the year-5 option on Elam.

[Ravensfan23]

1 hour ago, Filmstudy said:

In practice Levine is paired with Arthur Brown on a unit, but that's not related to down/distance/game situation.  It's just a way to divide the reps.  Suffice it to say, Pees would never want Levine in the game on 1st and 10 unless it was an obvious passing situation (end of half or game, for example).  So I wouldn't look at the no-tackle practice pairings as having significant portent.

In fact, after watching practice, it was very obvious how he would be used in terms of down and distance and that's exactly what happened on his 18 snaps Thursday (every one a high-likelihood passing snap).

No one else is practicing for the dime role.  Pees mentioned Elam has taken a few snaps in the role, but he's not practicing with the LBs like Levine is.  Matt would be the next logical choice, but the job is clearly Levine's to lose.

In terms of future value, neither player has option value.  Both are in contract years, because the Ravens did not pick up the year-5 option on Elam.

I understand all that but you yourself wrote a really good piece on how little Pees has used the Dime packages in year's past. So while it's great that this specialty role is seemingly being craved out for Levine how often will this defense be used under a man who by your breakdown hasn't used dime much?

Again I have nothing against Levine and even if you cut Elam or Brooks, do you really have room for a guy who will exclusively play Dime and ST? It's not even a performance thing. Just look at the numbers. Looking at the entire roster can you fit this specialty role in? Obviously nothing is final but right now it's looking like 4RBs 4TEs, at least 6WRs maybe even 7, although doubtful. 8-9OLs, at least 5CBs, at least 4 Safeties ahead of Levine, gotta have your 2QBs, 3STs guys and Juice ain't going no where. You're gonna need at least 6DL for the rotation. At least 3ILBs not named Levine. With at least 4OLBs but probably 5 cause Judon is doing well. By my math that's at least 50 roster spots just taking the minimum at each position. In filling those 50 spots, Young, Canady, Price, Elam/Brooks(1in), Judon, KLM, the winner of the RS battle Camp/Reynolds nor a veteran swing OT which I think will be added were included. I just can't see the Ravens craving out a role just for Levine and taking away from other positions when you already have versatility at the safety position. 

I could be wrong as I have been plenty times before, but right now I can't see Levine on this team. 

[stampedehero]

Finally Keenan Reynolds gets the great practice catch.  My Opinion .  He is an asset as he can catch, play QB if needed and be a possible return player.  Besides all that, the Ravens can have Navy day and feature him of the beverage cups . The marketing department could rally more fans and gate tickets with that promo.

[stampedehero]

8 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

No he didn't play, he returned to practice the day before the game I believe. He'll certainly play this game if he remains healthy. Also before his injury he was sai to be performing well. 

As for Price, I think the team really likes him. Not sure there is space for both he and Canady as those long lengthy CBs behind Jimmy, but I really think they want to have two guys with size on the outside at CB. They thought they had it with Melvin but he didn't work out. I really think Price has a great shot to make the team and he'll have to play his way off the team imo. 

It'll be hard to cut either of Brooks or Elam imo, especially if those young guys continue to make plays. They finally have a guy in Weddle to learn from and they seem to be responding well to it. I'm not saying neither guy is cut, but I certain think either one of them would be kept over Levine. 

I really love Levine's versatility. But sometimes being a jack of all trades isn't as good when you don't have at least one defined role. Now he is a great Special Teams player and Harbs loves his ST units but is that enough? In years past I would say yes, but this year Idk. While many think the news of the Ravens using him at ILB is good, I don't. I just see that as another jack of all trades move to see if you can find a spot for him. If he was a legit option at Safety there is no way you move him to ILB imo. 

For the Ravens,,,,Not a bad place to be in......

[rmw10]

4 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I understand all that but you yourself wrote a really good piece on how little Pees has used the Dime packages in year's past. So while it's great that this specialty role is seemingly being craved out for Levine how often will this defense be used under a man who by your breakdown hasn't used dime much?

Again I have nothing against Levine and even if you cut Elam or Brooks, do you really have room for a guy who will exclusively play Dime and ST? It's not even a performance thing. Just look at the numbers. Looking at the entire roster can you fit this specialty role in? Obviously nothing is final but right now it's looking like 4RBs 4TEs, at least 6WRs maybe even 7, although doubtful. 8-9OLs, at least 5CBs, at least 4 Safeties ahead of Levine, gotta have your 2QBs, 3STs guys and Juice ain't going no where. You're gonna need at least 6DL for the rotation. At least 3ILBs not named Levine. With at least 4OLBs but probably 5 cause Judon is doing well. By my math that's at least 50 roster spots just taking the minimum at each position. In filling those 50 spots, Young, Canady, Price, Elam/Brooks(1in), Judon, KLM, the winner of the RS battle Camp/Reynolds nor a veteran swing OT which I think will be added were included. I just can't see the Ravens craving out a role just for Levine and taking away from other positions when you already have versatility at the safety position. 

I could be wrong as I have been plenty times before, but right now I can't see Levine on this team. 

On the same token, do you really have room for a 5th S that isn't likely to get much playing time in Brooks or Elam?  That's how I'm looking at it.  Sure, each of them may have shown flashes, but I do think it says a lot that they chose to give Levine these reps and not Brooks or Elam.  I don't see it as them trying to find a role for him, rather the fact that they thought he was the best to play the role.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

On 8/14/2016 at 3:18 AM, Filmstudy said:

Levine is indeed a roster lock, and a lock for activity on game day if healthy.  His usage/play on Thursday was the single most interesting aspect of the game to me, because it represents a significant schematic shift for Pees.

The Ravens played just 62 dime snaps the last 3 seasons (41, 8, 13, 2% of total snaps).  On Thursday, after Levine practiced with the LBs this camp, he played 18 snaps as the dime, all in obvious passing situations.  He made 3 good plays among those 18, the PD/near pick, the drive-ending tackle on Wegher (Q4, 12:57) in the open field, and negotiation of the screen traffic (Q3, 4:30) where he arrived on time, but the WR had been tripped up by Elam.  He showed AA blitz with Brown several times and will provide more options on 3rd down in terms of coverage than a linebacker.  I expect him to play well in the role and join a fine line of quality dimes the Ravens have had (Ralph Staten, Corey Harris, Chad Williams, Jerome Sapp, and Haruki Nakamura).  Those guys may be lesser known, but they all made some big plays and were on the field for the highest leverage downs, so their contribution was magnified.

I wrote a piece on the dime recently here that compares Pees-era dime usage to the 2000 Ravens defense:

http://russellstreetreport.com/2016/07/29/camp-notes/ravens-defensive-backs-dime-defense/

If you're interested, here are my grades by player from Thursday's game (long):

http://russellstreetreport.com/2016/08/12/filmstudy/2016-draft-class-preseason-opener/

At work now, but will check out the pieces when i have few minutes and edit this post with some feedback then...

But, I completely agree. Levine's a guy that's going to play a huge role for us this year.... Especially against the Patriots. Having a guy thats big and strong enough to hang with the likes of Bennett/Gronk but also with the coverage ability to hang with Edelman/Amendola if necessary will go a long way to slowing that machine down. 

[redlobster]

7 hours ago, AnthonyGames said:

People that really jumped off the screen to me:

-Dixon- his speed/burst, along with his ability to make moves in space really blew me away. Just with that small sample size, it is obvious this kid is special. Buck Allen really looked like the odd man out, although he looks natural catching the ball out of the backfield...

-Stanley- for his first time out, he looked very in control. He looked strong and athletic, especially on the play where he had that beautiful pull block. A left tackle with that strength and mobility is rare. 

-Arthur Brown- no love for Brown? I thought he looked scary fast at the linebacker position. The way he charged the gaps and the ball carrier looked great. He also showed some good potential in pass coverage. I think he is the perfect complement to Mosley. I hope he makes some big plays in the next few preseason games. I feel we haven't seen his potential since being drafted in the second round. 

-Z. Smith- looked great at rushing the passer and setting edge. Rotating him in with Doom and Suggs will be good. 

-Brooks- looked hungry. Looked like he wanted to make plays. Looked fast around the ball. Solid in coverage and tackling!

-I also think Carl Davis looked good in run support. 

What I find funny is Arthur Brown was drafted to play ILB but was told to add weight and that delayed a lot. The league is shifting towards a deonne Buchanan type of safety/lb hybrid , which seems like AB would have been perfect for with his speed and weight as a rookie.

[rmw10]

4 minutes ago, redlobster said:

What I find funny is Arthur Brown was drafted to play ILB but was told to add weight and that delayed a lot. The league is shifting towards a deonne Buchanan type of safety/lb hybrid , which seems like AB would have been perfect for with his speed and weight as a rookie.

It had long been speculated that his issue was physical, but based on reports over the last year or so, it sounds like it's been a mental thing.  It's been reported that he really struggled with the playbook and being able to process quickly on the field.  In regards to the weight though, although there has been a shift, he needed to be around 240 or so to handle a full time load.  Bucannon works nicely in Arizona but he gets washed out of running plays quite a bit, so he's not exactly a full time player.

[redlobster]

21 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

It had long been speculated that his issue was physical, but based on reports over the last year or so, it sounds like it's been a mental thing.  It's been reported that he really struggled with the playbook and being able to process quickly on the field.  In regards to the weight though, although there has been a shift, he needed to be around 240 or so to handle a full time load.  Bucannon works nicely in Arizona but he gets washed out of running plays quite a bit, so he's not exactly a full time player.

Bucannon played 994 snaps on defense and another 81 on ST last year. More defensive snaps than any other Cardinals defender (including Patrick Peterson), so him not being a full time player is off base.

[rmw10]

1 minute ago, redlobster said:

Bucannon played 994 snaps on defense and another 81 on ST last year. More defensive snaps than any other Cardinals defender (including Patrick Peterson), so him not being a full time player is off base.

That's why I said not exactly.  Definitely worded poorly on my end, but didn't know how else to say it.  I guess I should have said he was a liability against the run, which is to be expected at his size.  Tying in to Arthur Brown, I think that was the original worry because we wanted him to be effective on every down.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

21 hours ago, 52liveforever said:

I agree he is pretty much a lock. Still though he's not ever going to be anymore than he is now. He's a solid depth guy and good special teams guy who will play wherever you want him, but he's never going to be any better than he is now. If it comes down to him, Elam, and Brooks I would go with Elam and Brooks hoping they meet their potential. Obviously that's not the smart move and it's more of a gamble and exactly why I am not a general manager. 

Totally disagree.

Levine is carving out a very specific role for himself in this defense -- a role the coaching staff has stressed the importance of filling all off season, and which all evidence leads to us wanting to play a lot more of (dime defense with a S/LB). 

While Levine may only be the 4th LB, 3rd/4th S... hes up there on ST and basically 1st on the depth chart at this position. I'll take my best guy at a niche role over depth guys any day. Sure, maybe Elam/Brooks could play the role too - but theres a reason theyre not.

And lets not act like Elam and Brooks are new guys here. Theyre in their 3rd and 4th years respectively. How many players do you know that out of no where suddenly become difference makers after 2-3 years in the league? Theres a couple, like Kruger, but his came from not really getting opportunity prior to that. Elams had plenty. Brooks hasnt due to injury, so we'll see.

Levine has proven... maybe its only proven to be solid. But neither Elam or Brooks has even proven that yet -- and theyve had time. Waiting on these guys to develop is what got our safety group in the mess we've been in.

Signing Weddle, moving Webb - these are signs. Signs of 0 faith in Elam/Brooks. Sure they could prove wrong, but im not cutting Levine - who has proven he can play whats going to be pretty sizeable role in this years defense... for Elam who has 1 season to prove he belongs with almost 0 opportunity (how often are you taking Weddle or Webb off the field?). Almost the same with Brooks.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

15 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Really don't think Levine fills that role. Yes he's being casted there and had some success in preseason game #1 but I ultimately see that role filled by a combination of Elam and/or Brooks. I like Levine and think he brings a ton of value to the team, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him be one of those really talented guys who ends up falling victim to the numbers game. 

Just looking at the numbers at that position, i think Levine gets the short end of the stick and it sucks. Let's just look at the position from a numbers and status standpoint. The Ravens typically keep 10-11 guys in the secondary if i remember correctly. I can't see Levine in the top 11 right now.

Smith, Wright, Weddle, Webb, Young and Canady will be here no matter what. Only injury keeps those guys off the 53.

Powers and Davis are guys the team is high on and I personally see Davis starting before the year ends.

Brooks and Elam are two young drafted guys who the Ravens still have hope for. How much hope they have isn't known but both guys are showing well for themselves thus far. 

Lewis is a guy who the team seems to really like and again thus far he's doing nothing to change their mind this year. 

Lastly there is Price. The team really seems to like his size and length. He's filled in for Jimmy a lot during training camp getting 1st team reps and even in the Preseason game, it was he and Davis who spent the most time outside once Smith and Wright exited. 

By my count that's 12 guys and Levine hasn't even been mentioned yet. Are all these guys locks to make it, no. And Levine could definitely leapfrog someone before the season. However I think his role will have to be more then a Dime and Special teams player to make this roster. 

 

Count Levine in with the backers and it works pretty easily.

Mosley, Orr, Correa, Levine.

 

Edited August 15, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

15 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Cool. So lets just swap Lewis to the Texans for a future 6th or 7th round pick (who likely won't make the team) and lets let Elam and Brooks fight over which safety we have the least possible confidence in be the backup to Webb, who is extremely durable and has proven he's an excellent safety.

I mean its not like anybody really thinks Lewis is fetching like a day 2 pick here. We've flipped much better players for much, much less than that.

And at the end of the day, practice is practice. Its borderline easy to look good in practice. I've got much better and much lengthier game film on Lewis than I do on Elam or Levine. That's why I'd trust him more.

Ok - you wouldnt trade Lewis or dont think its gonna happen.

I dont get why youre jumping down the guys throat.

While Elam/Brooks havent been great and I dont have much faith in them - i also dont have much in Lewis either. The difference is marginal at best... and while youre right that Lewis is a known quantity, its not a positive known here at least. Neither are Elam and Brooks, but they were both off the field due to injury most of last year.

So, if the difference is marginal, and at the very least theres a small likelihood that Elam and Brooks could improve... and we're going to cut at least one (which might be Lewis anyways when its all said and done, i dont think thats the case, but it could)... its not a terrible idea to try and turn one of them into a pick. And out of the 3 Lewis is the only one that has any value what so ever, as pointed out by the possible Crennel connection and their needing help back there.

Even if its a 6th/7th its better than nothing. A 6 year, $90m QB came from one of our 6th round picks. Camp came from one. Reynolds came from one. Its not high percentage, but its an extra lottery ticket - longer odds - but hey it could be a play maker. Better than just letting a guy walk for nothing if you can help it.

 

Not saying its a likely scenario, not saying its the way id go, not saying i like elam or brooks more than Lewis... i hardly have an opinion on the matter... But its not stupid logic - like it seems youre trying to make the guy feel like - that if you dont like Lewis and think hes the odd man out, or is dead even with the other safeties, to find a situation you could trade the guy to and recoup something.

Are you implying that if we cut Lewis and a story comes out a day later that Houston was willing to offer us a 6th round pick, you'd go "Who cares? FO did the right thing - its just a 6th."?

Just dont get the repetitive sarcasm and kinda snooty retorts - especially after he respectfully let you slide past your Romeo gaff.

[Ravensfan23]

3 hours ago, rmw10 said:

On the same token, do you really have room for a 5th S that isn't likely to get much playing time in Brooks or Elam?  That's how I'm looking at it.  Sure, each of them may have shown flashes, but I do think it says a lot that they chose to give Levine these reps and not Brooks or Elam.  I don't see it as them trying to find a role for him, rather the fact that they thought he was the best to play the role.

I understand that. My position is just how important is that role to begin with? Is the Dime a position the Ravens feel they must have or is it a position they're trying out while in camp to see if it's something they can employ? The position is being practiced with he and Art Brown lined up together. Imo that screams these two guys aren't a major part of what we wanna do defensively, so let's get them on the field some way. 

It's a role that is becoming popular around the league but that doesn't mean the Ravens are serious about employing "right now". Also it's more of a permanent LB/S type role, not just as a Dimeback which it seems Levine is working right now.

In terms of Elam or Brooks being there, why would you? They don't need to spend any time in LB drills or meeting. You need both of those guys around Weddle as much as possible and continuing to hopefully develop in the roles you drafted them because they are still young and your starters are older. 

I guess the question becomes do the Ravens still think either or both Elam and Brooks can develop into quality players or are they just getting meaningless reps?

Levine is adding nothing to the safety position right now. So even if it is a case between the 5th safety and the Dimeback, are we really talking about the Ravens keeping a guy on the 53 who adds nothing else to the defense, he's just a Dimeback. We're not talking about Levine making a full time switch here were just talking about him as a Dimeback. I see it as nothing more than an experiment honestly. Until I see Levine start to get at least 2nd team reps as a S/LB hybrid, it's nothing more than an experiment to me.

[rmcjacket23]

21 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Ok - you wouldnt trade Lewis or dont think its gonna happen.

I dont get why youre jumping down the guys throat.

While Elam/Brooks havent been great and I dont have much faith in them - i also dont have much in Lewis either. The difference is marginal at best... and while youre right that Lewis is a known quantity, its not a positive known here at least. Neither are Elam and Brooks, but they were both off the field due to injury most of last year.

So, if the difference is marginal, and at the very least theres a small likelihood that Elam and Brooks could improve... and we're going to cut at least one (which might be Lewis anyways when its all said and done, i dont think thats the case, but it could)... its not a terrible idea to try and turn one of them into a pick. And out of the 3 Lewis is the only one that has any value what so ever, as pointed out by the possible Crennel connection and their needing help back there.

Even if its a 6th/7th its better than nothing. A 6 year, $90m QB came from one of our 6th round picks. Camp came from one. Reynolds came from one. Its not high percentage, but its an extra lottery ticket - longer odds - but hey it could be a play maker. Better than just letting a guy walk for nothing if you can help it.

 

Not saying its a likely scenario, not saying its the way id go, not saying i like elam or brooks more than Lewis... i hardly have an opinion on the matter... But its not stupid logic - like it seems youre trying to make the guy feel like - that if you dont like Lewis and think hes the odd man out, or is dead even with the other safeties, to find a situation you could trade the guy to and recoup something.

Are you implying that if we cut Lewis and a story comes out a day later that Houston was willing to offer us a 6th round pick, you'd go "Who cares? FO did the right thing - its just a 6th."?

Just dont get the repetitive sarcasm and kinda snooty retorts - especially after he respectfully let you slide past your Romeo gaff.

No. Here's my problems with this:

1. Far too many fans think the NFL is like Madden or Fantasy, where you can just trade people whenever you want. Spending an entire post bashing the player for how poor a player he is, and then simultaneously saying "well but another team might want to trade for him" doesn't make any sense to me.

2. I asked a simple question of how that trade would make the Ravens better.  I didn't get an answer, and I don't think a lot of people actually consider this when they start floating out trade ideas like this. They just say "hey, he's no good and we may cut him, lets trade him". Maybe 1 out of 500 guys who teams want to cut actually get traded for some actual value.

3. Is a 6th or 7th rounder REALLY better than nothing? Historically, the answer is no, its not really better. Its really about the same. I wouldn't care one bit if I found out later that the Texans would have given a 6th for him... I didn't care one bit when we traded Boldin for a 6th rounder. It meant nothing to me. Maybe that trade turns into something, or more likely it turns into nothing. Historically, the latter is more likely, and that is an increasing likelihood given how weak current and future draft classes are. 

What if that 6th round pick gets 2-3 years to prove himself and ultimately fails like many do? Maybe he's taking a roster spot away from a better FA, or a better UDFA that we could have signed if we didn't have faith in a late round draft pick.

Camp and Reynolds haven't made this team  yet, and I don't expect either to be big contributors if they do, so I'm not sure how that's a good example. Right now, at the very best, they're just guys competing for roster spots. They're competing with undrafted players, former practice squad guys, etc. 

And no, that's not what Tyrod is getting. He's getting a 1 year, $9.5M contract from another team that's not the Ravens. He's playing on a series of one year deals. Given that year 2 of that "deal" pays him $27.5M, which would be amongst the highest paid QBs in the league, he's going to have to play really, really, really well to get that. Like significantly better than he did last season.

[BmoreBird22]

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

And lets not act like Elam and Brooks are new guys here. Theyre in their 3rd and 4th years respectively. How many players do you know that out of no where suddenly become difference makers after 2-3 years in the league? Theres a couple, like Kruger, but his came from not really getting opportunity prior to that. Elams had plenty. Brooks hasnt due to injury, so we'll see.

This isn't unusual for players in the secondary

[ludy51]

1 minute ago, BmoreBird22 said:

This isn't unusual for players in the secondary

Especially safeties

[JoeyFlex5]

8 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

This isn't unusual for players in the secondary

Yeah.. The secondary has the 2nd bigreat mental leap after qb. You're asking guys to come out of college in a new system and play the chess match against the highest chemistry groups of players, qbs and their targets have a distinct advantage over any defender by having timing and knowing each others quirks better than any other player. There's a reason free safeties tend to start out as box safeties or nickel backs, or high profile corners start out as 3rd options while the veteran slides inside in nickel packages.

[rmw10]

1 hour ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I understand that. My position is just how important is that role to begin with? Is the Dime a position the Ravens feel they must have or is it a position they're trying out while in camp to see if it's something they can employ? The position is being practiced with he and Art Brown lined up together. Imo that screams these two guys aren't a major part of what we wanna do defensively, so let's get them on the field some way. 

It's a role that is becoming popular around the league but that doesn't mean the Ravens are serious about employing "right now". Also it's more of a permanent LB/S type role, not just as a Dimeback which it seems Levine is working right now.

In terms of Elam or Brooks being there, why would you? They don't need to spend any time in LB drills or meeting. You need both of those guys around Weddle as much as possible and continuing to hopefully develop in the roles you drafted them because they are still young and your starters are older. 

I guess the question becomes do the Ravens still think either or both Elam and Brooks can develop into quality players or are they just getting meaningless reps?

Levine is adding nothing to the safety position right now. So even if it is a case between the 5th safety and the Dimeback, are we really talking about the Ravens keeping a guy on the 53 who adds nothing else to the defense, he's just a Dimeback. We're not talking about Levine making a full time switch here were just talking about him as a Dimeback. I see it as nothing more than an experiment honestly. Until I see Levine start to get at least 2nd team reps as a S/LB hybrid, it's nothing more than an experiment to me.

I think it's hard to say right now because we have used it so sparingly in the past.  If it's something we want to commit to going forward though, then the role is hugely important.  I think it's hard to say that he's just a dimeback though, because that dimeback could become something we want to use a lot more often.  Furthermore, I do get the impression that this is a full time switch, as it sounds like he's spent no time at S this offseason.  Levine actually might not be completely comparable to Elam and Brooks in that sense.

It was my impression that Levine is getting reps in true dime defenses, but in the base defense is when he's on the 3rd string with Arthur Brown.  I think @Filmstudy alluded to that but I could be wrong.

While it wouldn't completely surprise me if Levine is gone, I think he's much, much closer to the lock side than he is the cut side.

[Ravensfan23]

2 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Count Levine in with the backers and it works pretty easily.

Mosley, Orr, Correa, Levine.

 

The issue isn't where do you list Levine, if that were the case you could just keep him at Safety, there isn't a limit to the amount of players you keep at one position. The issue is, do you have room for a "Dimeback" when you have other DBs just as versatile and you'll have to take away from another position to keep him. 

Now if we're talking about Levine making that permanent switch to LB/S hybrid and that role becoming a big part of the defense then I can see finding a way to get him on the 53, but just as a Dimeback...I don't see it.

So let's play Hard Knocks. We're both coach sitting at the table on cut-down day and we have to pound the table for our guys. Looking at the roster, even without names, just looking at the number of starters, backups needed and couple givens we know like the Ravens will keep 4TEs. I count 51 spots accounted for per position. 2QBs 1FB 4RBs 4TEs 6WRs and 8OLs. That's 25 on offense. 1K, 1P, 1LS that's 3 on ST for a total of 28. 6DL, 5OLBs, 3ILBs, 5CBs 4S. That's 23 on defense for a total of 51 spots taken. In my mind right now these are the guys I have fighting for those final 2 spots right now. Henry/KLM, Price, Canady, Camp, Reynolds, Brook/Elam, Levine, and a potential veteran swing OT. What argument would you use to pound the table for Levine to be kept as a Dimeback over these guys?