The good bad and ugly Pre-Season 1

[Tank 92]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

 

Ozzie already laid out an expectation that he thinks it will be difficult for the Ravens to return to the playoffs this season. It would appear that most, if not all, fans have completely ignored this. 

I must have missed him saying this. Can you post a link to the quote?

[BmoreBird22]

3 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I dont necessarily disagree with anything you say - except that Elam was also in the game for a good amount at the end. He was in on the game ending play. Those werent 2nd stringer, borderline starters.

And it was 2 plays in the 4th quarter that a lot of people are talking about when citing his improved play.

But other than that - im with you.

I noticed on his very first drive in the first quarter marked improvement when he met a receiver at the point of the catch and tackled him immediately with a wrap up tackle. He came in immediately when Webb and Weddle were done.

[BmoreBird22]

4 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Yes, long term, that would be a FO expectation due to draft status and money. As you already agreed with, we don't actually know what the FO's expectation was. Entirely possible they were disappointed as well, but that wasn't conveyed publicly. Surely wouldn't be the first or last time.

If he doesn't earn playing time this year, then yes, I will definitely agree that he was a disappointment. But I'm still inclined to believe that he needed time to develop and had that taken away last year, a year that we should theoretically see the most growth in.

[Newsome is Awesome]

3 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

I must have missed him saying this. Can you post a link to the quote?

I've projected 7-9 with possible upside exceeding that should Suggs return to near form and Wallace become at least a Torrey Smith.

[Tank 92]

16 minutes ago, Newsome is Awesome said:

I've projected 7-9 with possible upside exceeding that should Suggs return to near form and Wallace become at least a Torrey Smith.

 

                          Nice!                                

 

                                                                                         

[Newsome is Awesome]

11 hours ago, Purple_City39 said:

I'm curious about this.  I remember Jimmy being ahead of Cary and all depth charts before week 1 that I can find show that (although they are hard to find).  Cary got the start because Jimmy had a high ankle sprain on the opening kick off and by the time he was healthy again, Williams and Webb were pretty much dominating.  He did get abused by Rivers mid-season, but so did everyone sans Webb

Jimmy Smith has had trouble staying glued together. Not sure you're talking 2011 or 2012, but I believe Smith was nicked in both years.

Cary Williams on the other hand started every game, including all playoff games, for us those two years. 38 of 38 games, including 2 passes defensed in the Championship game. Williams had 75 plus tackles each of those two seasons and defensed as many thrown balls (35) as Darelle Revis, but for Revis's in 2009

Now he is only 31 and a Free Agent, but he did play admirably for the Ravens.

Jimmy Smith is 28 years old and has he played his best?  Because if he has do you really think he has measured up to Cary Williams in either 2011 or 2012?   My view is that Jimmy Smith is still about potential and a lot of that has to do with injuries.

Which brings us back to Elam and a much lower level of contribution discussion.

[JoeyFlex5]

8 hours ago, Newsome is Awesome said:

 

Jimmy Smith is 28 years old and has he played his best?  Because if he has do you really think he has measured up to Cary Williams in either 2011 or 2012?   My view is that Jimmy Smith is still about potential and a lot of that has to do with injuries.

 

If you think Jimmy Smith's 2013 and 2014 campaigns are anywhere in the same atmosphere as Cary Williams then you are blind. Jimmy between the super bowl and his lisfranc injury was by far the most dominant stretch the ravens have ever seen from a cb, and he did it without the elite defenses that c-mac had, and did it against top flight receivers seemingly every other week.

Jimmys worth isn't about potential, it's about recovering from an injury that has been known to end careers or at least send them on a downward spiral.

[Newsome is Awesome]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

If you think Jimmy Smith's 2013 and 2014 campaigns are anywhere in the same atmosphere as Cary Williams then you are blind. Jimmy between the super bowl and his lisfranc injury was by far the most dominant stretch the ravens have ever seen from a cb, and he did it without the elite defenses that c-mac had, and did it against top flight receivers seemingly every other week.

Jimmys worth isn't about potential, it's about recovering from an injury that has been known to end careers or at least send them on a downward spiral.

I have a vastly different measuring stick for player. For me he doesn't get to be called elite on a subjective basis.  He has to be a game changer on film.  He has to produce, he has to be on the field and the team has to win.  I like Jimmy Smith, but to this point he has not tipped the scale in his favor. I see potential, but it has not fully ripened by many measures. If we could put Championship Cary Williams on both corners this year, it would be a no brainer.

Regarding injuries, I'm going strictly by memory, but I recall his rookie year he had a high ankle sprain that set him back multiple games.  His second year, I believe he had a abdominal hernia that set him back. Obviously the Lisfranc in 2014, a year you wish to score as pro bowl.  I know there's great influence here to put Smith on the Hall of Fame express. I'm just not on board that train. But if he's going to get on, it better be soon, because he is 28 years old and the best sequence he's shown was in the final drive of the Championship game.

Jimmy Smith certainly hasn't shown much in practice, but I'm not holding that against him. He deserves the chance to demonstrate he's still got it.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Newsome is Awesome

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, Newsome is Awesome said:

I have a vastly different measuring stick for player. For me he doesn't get to be called elite on a subjective basis.  He has to be a game changer on film.  He has to produce, he has to be on the field and the team has to win.  I like Jimmy Smith, but to this point he has not tipped the scale in his favor. I see potential, but it has not fully ripened by many measures. If we could put Championship Cary Williams on both corners this year, it would be a no brainer.

Regarding injuries, I'm going strictly by memory, but I recall his rookie year he had a high ankle sprain that set him back multiple games.  His second year, I believe he had a abdominal hernia that set him back. Obviously the Lisfranc in 2014, a year you wish to score as pro bowl.  I know there's great influence here to put Smith on the Hall of Fame express. I'm just not on board that train. But if he's going to get on, it better be soon, because he is 28 years old and the best sequence he's shown was in the final drive of the Championship game.

Jimmy Smith certainly hasn't shown much in practice, but I'm not holding that against him. He deserves the chance to demonstrate he's still got it.

Well you aren't surprising anyone with your extremely negative outlook and bias on certain players since we all know who you are, but if you want to put Cary Williams at both corner spots and get toasted on comebacks all year long and draw a PI everytime the receiver goes deep then be my guest, but Cary Williams was pretty bad and benefited from elite play on the other side of the field and a pass rush that was still playing well.

It doesn't matter what you think you saw, Jimmy smith played lights out and was one of the best in the league before his injury, and there is very little, if any, factual evidence that you can use to argue against that.

[BmoreBird22]

1 hour ago, Newsome is Awesome said:

I have a vastly different measuring stick for player.

When it's about tackles for a corner, you're doing it wrong.

[BmoreBird22]

1 hour ago, Newsome is Awesome said:

If we could put Championship Cary Williams on both corners this year, it would be a no brainer.

Just so we're clear, this is the "Championship Cary Williams" you'd be getting.

then turned around and gave up over 1,000 yards, six touchdowns, and a 91.6 quarterback rating in his coverage this season.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

12 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I noticed on his very first drive in the first quarter marked improvement when he met a receiver at the point of the catch and tackled him immediately with a wrap up tackle. He came in immediately when Webb and Weddle were done.

yea - not saying he didnt play with higher level players, and that he didnt show improvement when in with them... was just pointing out that he did play with 3rd stringers, and likely-to-be-cut players as well.

And arguably his two biggest splashes came during that time. But i do agree, he looked a ton better throughout the game. Just the fundamentals, not over pursuing, not always trying to blow people up, able to stay closer in coverage.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

2 hours ago, Newsome is Awesome said:

I have a vastly different measuring stick for player. For me he doesn't get to be called elite on a subjective basis.  He has to be a game changer on film.  He has to produce, he has to be on the field and the team has to win.  I like Jimmy Smith, but to this point he has not tipped the scale in his favor. I see potential, but it has not fully ripened by many measures. If we could put Championship Cary Williams on both corners this year, it would be a no brainer.

Regarding injuries, I'm going strictly by memory, but I recall his rookie year he had a high ankle sprain that set him back multiple games.  His second year, I believe he had a abdominal hernia that set him back. Obviously the Lisfranc in 2014, a year you wish to score as pro bowl.  I know there's great influence here to put Smith on the Hall of Fame express. I'm just not on board that train. But if he's going to get on, it better be soon, because he is 28 years old and the best sequence he's shown was in the final drive of the Championship game.

Jimmy Smith certainly hasn't shown much in practice, but I'm not holding that against him. He deserves the chance to demonstrate he's still got it.

Wait, you mean 10 yards of cushion, keep the play in front of you and allow the catch so you can make the tackle Cary Williams?? I feel like his sole objective was to not get beat over the top. Pick him apart with 5-10 yard completions all day... but no, you will not get behind me.

And thats cool and all... but Corey Graham was better that year imo. 

Cary was a decent 2nd starter that year, but no I would not take him over Jimmy. He didnt get worse suddenly in 2013, 2014, and 2015... its just the book is out on him. take the easy completion that he gives up and march right down the field. He doesnt adjust. Yea, he makes the tackle every time, but he also gives 10 yard cushion every time.

No thanks. I want a defense that can stop someone. Tough to have a pass rush when the QB knows that on both sides hes got a WR with a 10 yard free release.

[rmcjacket23]

16 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

I must have missed him saying this. Can you post a link to the quote?

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Eisenberg-Ozzie-Newsome-Cautious-About-2016-Playoff-Hopes/0fab39fa-4929-4f46-a513-67d5d210dd67

Basically says that we won't know anything until at least October.

Edited August 18, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

30 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Eisenberg-Ozzie-Newsome-Cautious-About-2016-Playoff-Hopes/0fab39fa-4929-4f46-a513-67d5d210dd67

Basically says that we won't know anything until at least October.

I dont read that the same as Ozzie saying it will be difficult to make the playoffs.

We hadnt even had the draft at that point, and all he was saying is that its tough to know what your team really is until after the 3rd preseason game, or even the 4th regular season game. You can love it on paper, but like last year, what you love on paper can fall apart real quick.

Plus, at that time Flacco, SSS, Suggs, Doom, Monroe, Forsett, Jimmy, Pitta, Gillmore,  etc... were all still recovering and how theyd come back was unknown. Obviously as a GM youre not proclaiming to be a definite playoff team when you dont know if your top 5 most talented players will be on the field.

 

I think if you asked him now, he'd be quite a bit more confident in that answer. 

But i didnt see anything close to "itll be difficult for us to make the playoffs" just "right now we have way too many question marks with health, and the draft yet to come, and even when fully healthy it usually takes until the regular season starts or week 4 to know what youve got, so i reserve my right to predict until I have an actual of idea of what team we'll be putting on the field.".... which are far different comments.

[rmcjacket23]

12 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I dont read that the same as Ozzie saying it will be difficult to make the playoffs.

We hadnt even had the draft at that point, and all he was saying is that its tough to know what your team really is until after the 3rd preseason game, or even the 4th regular season game. You can love it on paper, but like last year, what you love on paper can fall apart real quick.

Plus, at that time Flacco, SSS, Suggs, Doom, Monroe, Forsett, Jimmy, Pitta, Gillmore,  etc... were all still recovering and how theyd come back was unknown. Obviously as a GM youre not proclaiming to be a definite playoff team when you dont know if your top 5 most talented players will be on the field.

 

I think if you asked him now, he'd be quite a bit more confident in that answer. 

But i didnt see anything close to "itll be difficult for us to make the playoffs" just "right now we have way too many question marks with health, and the draft yet to come, and even when fully healthy it usually takes until the regular season starts or week 4 to know what youve got, so i reserve my right to predict until I have an actual of idea of what team we'll be putting on the field.".... which are far different comments.

If you asked him now, I doubt his answer would be any different, given that its not October yet. We still don't know a lot more than we did in April. We've added and lost some players, but injury questions are just as mirky as they were in April. We don't know much about the injury situation of any of those players, other than that some are practicing and some are not.

[Tank 92]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Eisenberg-Ozzie-Newsome-Cautious-About-2016-Playoff-Hopes/0fab39fa-4929-4f46-a513-67d5d210dd67

Basically says that we won't know anything until at least October.

Oh, OK.  Seems he was cautious in his assessment because of the injuries and other unknowns, but I don't read anything that suggests that he  "thinks it will be difficult for the Ravens to return to the playoffs this season".  Saying he could "answer better in October" could pretty much be an acceptable answer from any one of the 32 teams.

 

Edit;   lol....sorry, I now see someone else had already replied with pretty much the same response.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Tank 92

[Newsome is Awesome]

14 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Just so we're clear, this is the "Championship Cary Williams" you'd be getting.

then turned around and gave up over 1,000 yards, six touchdowns, and a 91.6 quarterback rating in his coverage this season.

If you're saying Williams was not as effective after he left the Ravens, that is probably accurate in some respects, but I have to say when anyone uses a rating like a 104.3 or a 3.1, you're going to immediately lose the attention of anyone from the Bill Parcells school of evaluation. That is going to be especially so when the source of the rating is not even referenced, because certain sources like PFF or Russell Street have lost accreditation with the School of Parcells.  For instance, we had a poster from Russell Street the other day actually state that one reason our rookie left tackle scored so high, (3.1), was because the "expectation" for him was lower.  Or in other words he received a subjective bonus.  At BPU, we sorta chuckle at that! (Update: Such was stated within a Russell Street Report link, but the author has since revised that post and the subjective language has been removed.)

At Bill Parcells University, Wins and Losses, Games Played, Starts, Passes Defensed, Interceptions, Tackles are what is going to make us initially take notice with a cornerback. If you've got film, we are very big on film as well.  But ratings, not so much. 

I'd point out that even with diminished "Parcells Numbers" and a Philly Offense that did NOT stay on the field, Cary Williams was a winner and played in the playoffs in 2013 and we did not.  The Chip Kelly offense will make any defender slip some, because there are quick outs and quick scores. But won't argue that Williams did not slip, just that evaluating with someone else's "ratings" is not the way to judge it. At least not at BPU.

Correction...It looks like Championship Cary Williams may have been picked up by Washington.  

Edited August 19, 2016 by Newsome is Awesome

[Filmstudy]

On 8/17/2016 at 3:28 PM, jazz1988 said:

So basically you trying to tell me professional writers thats been watching this team for years  are not credible enough when they  post up  training camp notes and observations? Since you don't really watch preseason games or count that as playing, that too isn't credible enough for you either.

 

Hmmmm ok. All I ever said was if Matt Elam and Terrance Brooks continue to impress through out training camp and preseason, Kendrick Lewis maybe the odd man out but you been debating with me for the  longest  as if I'm saying Matt Elam is elite or something .

How can training camp be considered totally irrelevant ? You think Jimmy Smith was handed the number one corner job base off nothing .

I'm done debating this as well.

 

I'll just make a few comments on the 3-way (some might say 4-way) safety battle at the risk of starting a bigger fire:

1.  I think the Ravens will keep 5 guys with Weddle, Webb, and Levine as the locks.  I won't repeat what I said about Levine earlier in this thread, but it just doesn't make any sense to cut him.

2.  Brooks has the advantage over the other 3 based on the combination of his 2-year option (he is signed through 2017, no RFA).  So based solely on contract structure and $, Brooks is the guy you keep all things being equal.  In fact, Brooks has looked good to me in practice and seems to be playing fast.  I want to see more of that in the final 3 games.  He could fill in at nickel to finish a game, but I don't think he's got the frame to play dime, even though he and Levine list at exactly the same height and weight.  He's got the most upside as a cover-2 safety through the end of 2017.

3.  Lewis also has 2 years of team control, but at an increasing salary ($1.4M in 2016, $1.8M in 2017 per Brian McFarland's cap numbers).  There is a cap savings of $900,000 for cutting him this season (offset by the low man on rule of 51).  The big problem I see with him is that he has been an absentee too often in camp.  He has the most proven cover-2 ability of these 3, but that is honestly saying very little.  IMO, he's a poor tackler with some fragility and that is not a good combination.  As to trade value, please don't kid yourself, he has none.  Conditional 7th is the most you could get, particularly if his participation the remainder of the preseason is spotty.

4.  Elam will be UFA after this season since the Ravens declined to pick up his 5th-year option before the season began.  I don't think the Ravens project any "special sauce" value (contribution to compensatory draft pick formula) for him, and that's certainly appropriate if he's not starting.  The Ravens will save approximately $1.3M (less 51st offset) by cutting Matt, so he's the biggest savings.  One thing we don't get a good look at in practice is Elam's biggest NFL weakness, tackling.  The Ravens have not done live tackling to date and today was the last practice open to the media.  So we can't see what might have improved in his technique other than in games.  He's not a cover-2 safety, and I'd be a little surprised if he gets a chance there again unless dictated by injury. However, he would be the first up as the backup dime (a position I think is critical to the 2016 Ravens) and has the physical makeup and speed for the role.  A crucial part of that role is being a good tackler on 3rd down passes thrown short of the sticks, so he's got something to prove the rest of preseason.

If I had to handicap it now, I'd say there is a 15-20% chance the roster will work itself out due to an injury to one of these 4 players or (shudder) Webb or Weddle.  There is probably also a 10-15% chance the team keeps 6 safeties (perhaps due to ST losses at another position, like corner).  Assuming 5 is the number, and the depth chart continues with no red cross, I'd say the percentage chance to make the team are Brooks 85%, Elam 65%, Lewis 50%, 

Edited August 19, 2016 by Filmstudy

[Tank 92]

6 hours ago, Filmstudy said:

 

If I had to handicap it now, I'd say there is a 15-20% chance the roster will work itself out due to an injury to one of these 4 players or (shudder) Webb or Weddle.  There is probably also a 10-15% chance the team keeps 6 safeties (perhaps due to ST losses at another position, like corner).  Assuming 5 is the number, and the depth chart continues with no red cross, I'd say the percentage chance to make the team are Brooks 85%, Elam 65%, Lewis 50%, 

Great post. 

[BmoreBird22]

13 hours ago, Newsome is Awesome said:

If you're saying Williams was not as effective after he left the Ravens, that is probably accurate in some respects, but I have to say when anyone uses a rating like a 104.3 or a 3.1, you're going to immediately lose the attention of anyone from the Bill Parcells school of evaluation. That is going to be especially so when the source of the rating is not even referenced, because certain sources like PFF or Russell Street have lost accreditation with the School of Parcells.  For instance, we had a poster from Russell Street the other day actually state that one reason our rookie left tackle scored so high, (3.1), was because the "expectation" for him was lower.  Or in other words he received a subjective bonus.  At BPU, we sorta chuckle at that! (Update: Such was stated within a Russell Street Report link, but the author has since revised that post and the subjective language has been removed.)

At Bill Parcells University, Wins and Losses, Games Played, Starts, Passes Defensed, Interceptions, Tackles are what is going to make us initially take notice with a cornerback. If you've got film, we are very big on film as well.  But ratings, not so much. 

I'd point out that even with diminished "Parcells Numbers" and a Philly Offense that did NOT stay on the field, Cary Williams was a winner and played in the playoffs in 2013 and we did not.  The Chip Kelly offense will make any defender slip some, because there are quick outs and quick scores. But won't argue that Williams did not slip, just that evaluating with someone else's "ratings" is not the way to judge it. At least not at BPU.

Correction...It looks like Championship Cary Williams may have been picked up by Washington.  

You don't have to be a fan of the quarterback rating, but he was targeted well over 100 times (I'd imagine up there in the 200 range), gave up over 1,000 yards, and six touchdowns. Also fairly certain the completion percentage was up around 66%. On a per coverage snap basis, he was giving up about 2.0 yards, which would be good for one of the worst in the NFL amongst full time starters.

He allowed 45 first downs or touchdowns, which ranked second in the league. His first downs allowed ranked third and his touchdowns and first downs allowed per coverage snap ranked seventh in the league.

That's a pretty solid to good season for a starting wide receiver, so what does it make it for a corner?

Oh, and as far as rating goes, that's not a grade; that's a passer rating allowed. As in, that was the quarterback's rating when they threw into William's coverage, so...

But then again, you're the one who also said Revis's 2007 season was almost as good as his 2009 season.

Oh, and no, Williams is a free agent who got cut from the Eagles after a total nosedive in the second half of the 2013 and entire 2014, couldn't even finish with the Seahawks in 2015, and then got scooped up for the playoffs with the Redskins only to not play a single snap.

But I can see why Filmstudy and PFF would lose their appeal to you. People that actually watch the All-22 and review the games over and over are probably the bane of your existence. 

Edited August 19, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[BmoreBird22]

8 hours ago, Filmstudy said:

If I had to handicap it now, I'd say there is a 15-20% chance the roster will work itself out due to an injury to one of these 4 players or (shudder) Webb or Weddle.  There is probably also a 10-15% chance the team keeps 6 safeties (perhaps due to ST losses at another position, like corner).  Assuming 5 is the number, and the depth chart continues with no red cross, I'd say the percentage chance to make the team are Brooks 85%, Elam 65%, Lewis 50%, 

I don't think I necessarily agree with this for two reasons.

1. Lewis has squarely been the number three for the entire preseason. Unless he gets leapfrogged during his absence, the team likes that he can play right now and be able to contribute right now if needed. That's what the team is looking for. I don't really want him here because I think Elam and Brooks can bring more in their own niches, but right now, Lewis is a beloved player of the coaches and FO.

2. Brooks has squarely been the fifth safety in, if we aren't counting Levine. In the first preseason game, it was Elam and Lewis out there first with Brooks coming in last. From what I've heard at practices, it's been Elam subbing in next to Lewis first or for him when he's out, suggesting that Brooks faces an uphill battle. 

3. In that first preseason game (I know, there's three more) you thought very highly of Elam, almost gave him your highest possible grade. Brooks, on the other hand, didn't receive a positive grade (-1?). With Brooks, he just seems late on everything and makes up for it by having extremely good athletic ability. I mean, sure, he can lay the hit after the catch, but I'd rather see that hit come earlier and break up that pass. 

I would love to see Brooks and Elam make it, but I don't see Brooks making it just because of how many years he has left on his deal because Upshaw was a full time starter for the Ravens for four years and he got a one year, veteran minimum. Elam and Brooks hardly see the field, so if the Ravens really wanted to re-sign Elam, I don't see it being an issue.

[rmw10]

8 hours ago, Filmstudy said:

If I had to handicap it now, I'd say there is a 15-20% chance the roster will work itself out due to an injury to one of these 4 players or (shudder) Webb or Weddle.  There is probably also a 10-15% chance the team keeps 6 safeties (perhaps due to ST losses at another position, like corner).  Assuming 5 is the number, and the depth chart continues with no red cross, I'd say the percentage chance to make the team are Brooks 85%, Elam 65%, Lewis 50%, 

I'll shorten this so we don't have a wall of text, but I don't think contracts are going to play in that heavily.  The days of cap savings are over so I wouldn't factor that into the Lewis equation at all.  I don't think contract length plays any large role either because none of these guys are ones that are going to go out onto the open market and get paid something we can't match, based on what we've seen from them this far.

I'm a firm believer that Lewis is a near lock as he's been said to be a favorite of the coaching staff because they feel he can pop in and out of the lineup as necessary.  Now, if he's truly injured right now, that's a different story.  Based on what I've read throughout the offseason though, I just can't see Lewis going anywhere despite the overall desire for people to get rid of him.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

On 8/18/2016 at 6:25 AM, Newsome is Awesome said:

I have a vastly different measuring stick for player. For me he doesn't get to be called elite on a subjective basis.  He has to be a game changer on film.  He has to produce, he has to be on the field and the team has to win.  I like Jimmy Smith, but to this point he has not tipped the scale in his favor. I see potential, but it has not fully ripened by many measures. If we could put Championship Cary Williams on both corners this year, it would be a no brainer.

Regarding injuries, I'm going strictly by memory, but I recall his rookie year he had a high ankle sprain that set him back multiple games.  His second year, I believe he had a abdominal hernia that set him back. Obviously the Lisfranc in 2014, a year you wish to score as pro bowl.  I know there's great influence here to put Smith on the Hall of Fame express. I'm just not on board that train. But if he's going to get on, it better be soon, because he is 28 years old and the best sequence he's shown was in the final drive of the Championship game.

Jimmy Smith certainly hasn't shown much in practice, but I'm not holding that against him. He deserves the chance to demonstrate he's still got it.

Just so happens that PFF, those guys that watch every single snap from a player and grade them on a play-by-play basis so that one outstanding interception doesnt cloud or mask a majority of negative plays -- happened to have him ranked as the 3rd best CB in football for a good stretch between the SB and his Lisfranc injury... 

His play was right on par with Sherman, Patrick Peterson, Revis and Chris Harris. In fact, it was Harris Jr and Sherman that were graded ahead of him, but Jimmy also did it over a stretch facing Antonio Brown 2x, Megatron, AJ Green 2x, Josh Gordon 2x (in his career year), D Thomas, Andre Johnson (before the sharp decline), Jordy Nelson, and Brandon Marshall.

But I do agree his value is based on potential - but not an unseen or unreached potential - just the potential to recover 100% from his injury. He's already shown that when healthy he  can completely lock down the leagues biggest, strongest, fastest, best receivers on a week in/week out basis.

[Filmstudy]

6 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I don't think I necessarily agree with this for two reasons.

1. Lewis has squarely been the number three for the entire preseason. Unless he gets leapfrogged during his absence, the team likes that he can play right now and be able to contribute right now if needed. That's what the team is looking for. I don't really want him here because I think Elam and Brooks can bring more in their own niches, but right now, Lewis is a beloved player of the coaches and FO.

2. Brooks has squarely been the fifth safety in, if we aren't counting Levine. In the first preseason game, it was Elam and Lewis out there first with Brooks coming in last. From what I've heard at practices, it's been Elam subbing in next to Lewis first or for him when he's out, suggesting that Brooks faces an uphill battle. 

3. In that first preseason game (I know, there's three more) you thought very highly of Elam, almost gave him your highest possible grade. Brooks, on the other hand, didn't receive a positive grade (-1?). With Brooks, he just seems late on everything and makes up for it by having extremely good athletic ability. I mean, sure, he can lay the hit after the catch, but I'd rather see that hit come earlier and break up that pass. 

I would love to see Brooks and Elam make it, but I don't see Brooks making it just because of how many years he has left on his deal because Upshaw was a full time starter for the Ravens for four years and he got a one year, veteran minimum. Elam and Brooks hardly see the field, so if the Ravens really wanted to re-sign Elam, I don't see it being an issue.

These are all valid points and I understand that it seems like my (change in expectation) grades are inconsistent with my probabilities.  And I've certainly harped on the usage of Levine in practice as a significant indicator, so Lewis, who's been in the 2nd set of safeties with Elam seems safe by the same logic.  RMW10 also pointed out that the contracts are not a huge deal, which I agree on the dollars component (but not the control).

A point I failed to mention is that the Ravens have a fairly old crew of safeties, particularly when weighted by expected playing time.  Brooks (24), Elam (24), Lewis (28), Webb (30), Weddle (31).  Levine, who's role is a little different is 29.  If the Ravens cut the youngest player (Brooks), who they also control for another year cheaply, it's a big gamble.  The team should stay younger when it can do so with minimal pain.

In a way, Elam will make this team or not independent of the cover-2 battle between Brooks and Lewis.  Among other things, he provides value as the backup dime and the coaches will need to be convinced he can play well enough in short space to keep him.

We can argue about who has more upside between Brooks and Lewis as a cover-2, but I would agree Lewis is ahead now.  However, after 2017, the team might want to resign Brooks, but they almost certainly will not want to commit to another contract with Lewis at age 30. 

Edited August 19, 2016 by Filmstudy

[Moderator 3]

What the heck?  What does Flacco have to do with what happened in the first preseason game?  Don't hijack.

[lgcs27288]

1 hour ago, Moderator 3 said:

What the heck?  What does Flacco have to do with what happened in the first preseason game?  Don't hijack.

Seriously... We have a whole page about Cary freaking Williams, who hasn't been on the team since when!? But a comment about Flacco and I'm hijacking?

 

OH OK

[Tank 92]

15 minutes ago, lgcs27288 said:

Seriously... We have a whole page about Cary freaking Williams, who hasn't been on the team since when!? But a comment about Flacco and I'm hijacking?

 

OH OK

 

It's called flacconating a thread, and yes it should be banned.  Don't go around flacconating random threads.    lol

                                                                                         

[lgcs27288]

10 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

 

It's called flacconating a thread, and yes it should be banned.  Don't go around flacconating random threads.    lol

                                                                                         

Call it what you want... but I'm just trying to see some consistency here.

 

What does Cary Williams have to do pre-season game 1? What about starting two of him!? Also, as far as Im concerned, unless we won a Super Bowl and Jimmy Smith had his Lisfranc injury all in pre-season game 1, what does that have to do with anything?

 

What the heck indeed...

Edited August 20, 2016 by lgcs27288

[rossihunter2]

25 minutes ago, lgcs27288 said:

Call it what you want... but I'm just trying to see some consistency here.

 

What does Cary Williams have to do pre-season game 1? What about starting two of him!? Also, as far as Im concerned, unless we won a Super Bowl and Jimmy Smith had his Lisfranc injury all in pre-season game 1, what does that have to do with anything?

 

What the heck indeed...

Two words: Matt Elam

or at least I think it all related to him