The good bad and ugly Pre-Season 1

[rmcjacket23]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

This is still exactly what happened to Jimmy...

Yes, and I said already that I, like many, viewed that as a disappointment at the time it happened. In fact, I thought 2012 was largely disappointing for him as well, though at least at the end of the season you could kind of see the light bulb turn on and him starting to make some solid plays.

Basically the exact opposite of Elam in that regard.

[Purple_City39]

12 hours ago, jazz1988 said:

Not sure what you saying is really carrying much weight . Jimmy Smith  got beat out by Carry William in his rookie season who actually was a sixth rounder/practice squad player  before being a Raven.Most rookie defensive backs aren't ready to start right away and it takes time  for the game to actually slow down to them.

Jimmy Smith himself didnt start blooming into a great player until his third season in The NFL.James Ihedigbo didnt just play solid for The Ravens but for The Lions as well... Journey man or no journey man , he simply was able to play better than he did for previous teams he had been on before becoming a Raven ,which isn't really all that surprising because The Ravens have been known to get more out of defensive players for years...

I'm curious about this.  I remember Jimmy being ahead of Cary and all depth charts before week 1 that I can find show that (although they are hard to find).  Cary got the start because Jimmy had a high ankle sprain on the opening kick off and by the time he was healthy again, Williams and Webb were pretty much dominating.  He did get abused by Rivers mid-season, but so did everyone sans Webb

[BmoreBird22]

34 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Yes, and I said already that I, like many, viewed that as a disappointment at the time it happened. In fact, I thought 2012 was largely disappointing for him as well, though at least at the end of the season you could kind of see the light bulb turn on and him starting to make some solid plays.

Basically the exact opposite of Elam in that regard.

The lightbulb seemed to turn on for Elam during the 2015 training camp and seems to have continued that trend into this training camp and the first preseason game.

I'm not going to be against the possibility that he can contribute because he's the first in when Lewis is absent or rotates out. 

[BmoreBird22]

30 minutes ago, Purple_City39 said:

I'm curious about this.  I remember Jimmy being ahead of Cary and all depth charts before week 1 that I can find show that (although they are hard to find).  Cary got the start because Jimmy had a high ankle sprain on the opening kick off and by the time he was healthy again, Williams and Webb were pretty much dominating.  He did get abused by Rivers mid-season, but so did everyone sans Webb

I remember in the preseason that Webb and Williams were squarely ahead of Jimmy. I think it's highly unlikely that Jimmy would be the starter; although, he would definitely be the nickel. 

That Rivers game was overstated. He got beat a few times (I think like four receptions for 72 yards and a touchdown) all in the first half and really cleaned it up in the second half.

Also, side note, but I don't believe Webb played in that game.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

No, I don't watch preseason games. Because they are preseason games. And if I did watch preseason games, I specifically wouldn't be watching players who I already have two full seasons of actual game film on. That's like watching the preseason and focusing on Marshal Yanda... I could care less what he's doing.

At the end of the day, as a reasonable fan, you've got to look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself this... does ONE preseason game, against largely backup NFL players, of quality play, allow you to completely disregard an entire full NFL regular season against starting players of really bad play?

I can't help you if you think quality play in a preseason game outweighs what we saw for largely two years. As I said earlier, if the coaching staff was so gullible as to put together an entire squad based solely on how they played in the preseason, we'd be cutting a lot of really good players every year and we'd probably struggle to win games every year.

Its a complete package, not what you just saw last week.

Wait - so Elam and Yanda are similar how? Seems like an irrelevant comparison to me. Of course you wouldnt watch Yanda who has solidified his position not only on this team but as the best guard in football. We know hes gonna handle his biz regardless of what he shows or doesnt show in the preseason.

And, are you saying that Elam's film from his 2nd year as a pro is definitely who he is and always will be as a player? It seems like thats what youre suggesting, but from other conversations ive seen i know you dont agree with that sentiment at all.

No - i dont think a pre-season game performance says more about who Elam is as a player than 2 years of film... but provided the context that the only film we have on him is from 2 years ago, his first 2 years in the league, and that the pre-season game just happened and has been surrounded by now 2 years of reports of improved play during training camp - id say its reasonable to think the pre-season game is a better representation of who he is as a a player right now.

As you pointed out though, as of now, thats simply a back up who has shown he can stand out for a couple plays against other back ups. It remains to be seen if he can contribute against starters, but i think we'll find that out for sure. 

This will be answered and put to bed, i imagine, in the next couple days. With Lewis out Elam took his place. And I think hes being given an opportunity to keep Lewis' spot if he plays well enough. 

 

I dont think Elam amounts to anything and at the very best this is his last year here. But, im also not going to suggest that bc he was really bad 2 years ago that he cant be an improved player right now or that his improved play in TC and pre-season just doesnt count. That is, imo, almost as ridiculous as expecting he'll suddenly live up to his 1st round billing. Neither seems reasonable really.

[rmcjacket23]

13 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Wait - so Elam and Yanda are similar how? Seems like an irrelevant comparison to me. Of course you wouldnt watch Yanda who has solidified his position not only on this team but as the best guard in football. We know hes gonna handle his biz regardless of what he shows or doesnt show in the preseason.

And, are you saying that Elam's film from his 2nd year as a pro is definitely who he is and always will be as a player? It seems like thats what youre suggesting, but from other conversations ive seen i know you dont agree with that sentiment at all.

No - i dont think a pre-season game performance says more about who Elam is as a player than 2 years of film... but provided the context that the only film we have on him is from 2 years ago, his first 2 years in the league, and that the pre-season game just happened and has been surrounded by now 2 years of reports of improved play during training camp - id say its reasonable to think the pre-season game is a better representation of who he is as a a player right now.

As you pointed out though, as of now, thats simply a back up who has shown he can stand out for a couple plays against other back ups. It remains to be seen if he can contribute against starters, but i think we'll find that out for sure. 

This will be answered and put to bed, i imagine, in the next couple days. With Lewis out Elam took his place. And I think hes being given an opportunity to keep Lewis' spot if he plays well enough. 

 

I dont think Elam amounts to anything and at the very best this is his last year here. But, im also not going to suggest that bc he was really bad 2 years ago that he cant be an improved player right now or that his improved play in TC and pre-season just doesnt count. That is, imo, almost as ridiculous as expecting he'll suddenly live up to his 1st round billing. Neither seems reasonable really.

In a way, yes, I'm saying we've already seen what Matt Elam is a member of the Ravens. Could he improve? Certainly. Is it likely he improves to a level where he can be a starter or major contributor on this team? Kind of hard to say that's likely at this point.

The most troubling aspect is a combination of two things... first, he got SIGNIFICANTLY worse in year 2 after a mostly average rookie season. His rookie season, frankly, was about what I would have expected out of him. He regressed in a major way. That's a major red flag to me. And we're not talking about a situation where he was dominant in year 1 and then average in year 2... we are talking about regression that basically makes him a liability anytime he's on the field. Second, his struggles come from poor fundamentals. When you're in your 4th year in professional football, having poor fundamentals isn't exactly something that's necessarily easily fixable, nor should professional teams needs to be concerned with re-teaching how to tackle and pursue properly.

CJ Mosley seemingly had some regression, but there's a difference between a player regressing into still being at least an average player, and a player regressing to the level where you legitimately can't put him on the field anymore, and we legitimately saw that with Elam.

The problem with banking on the "reported improved play during training camp", as I addressed earlier, is that there's about 70 guys in camp who have the same reports. Am I supposed to believe that like 80% or more of our training camp participants are having a great camp? I'm sure if I went and read articles on 31 other NFL teams, I'd find that they have 70 studs in training camp also.

You are right that we will find out... and that's what fans should be waiting for. What fans absolutely should NOT be doing is talking about trading our depth at safety based on the premise that some of our other safety depth is having a great training camp, especially when said depth doesn't have a track record of quality play in this league.

In some ways, its just a pet peeve of mine. But at the end of the day, one time, I'd like to actually see this play out. I'd like to see the Ravens trade Lewis to the Texans for a garbage draft pick, Matt Elam becomes the third safety, Webb gets hurt, and Elam becomes the starter and just simply sucks big time.

Why do I want that to happen? Not because I want the Ravens to suck or for them to lose. Its more or less that, at least one time, I get to point directly back at fans who want to be backseat GMs and say "well, you made this decision, now you get to deal with the consequences associated with it". Of course, there are no consequences, because the easiest and laziest part of being a fan is making recommendations that involve reaping 100% of the rewards and 0% of the risk.

When Ozzie makes that deal and it backfires, he's ripped to shreds by some fans (even sometimes hilariously the same fans who supported the deal). It would be nice to see some fans ripped to shreds for this also. Maybe not all the time, but just on special occasions when its clear that they didn't bother to think the decision through.

Edited August 17, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[Purple_City39]

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I remember in the preseason that Webb and Williams were squarely ahead of Jimmy. I think it's highly unlikely that Jimmy would be the starter; although, he would definitely be the nickel. 

That Rivers game was overstated. He got beat a few times (I think like four receptions for 72 yards and a touchdown) all in the first half and really cleaned it up in the second half.

Also, side note, but I don't believe Webb played in that game.

Webb not playing would explain why I don't remember him getting beat. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

15 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

In a way, yes, I'm saying we've already seen what Matt Elam is a member of the Ravens. Could he improve? Certainly. Is it likely he improves to a level where he can be a starter or major contributor on this team? Kind of hard to say that's likely at this point.

The most troubling aspect is a combination of two things... first, he got SIGNIFICANTLY worse in year 2 after a mostly average rookie season. His rookie season, frankly, was about what I would have expected out of him. He regressed in a major way. That's a major red flag to me. And we're not talking about a situation where he was dominant in year 1 and then average in year 2... we are talking about regression that basically makes him a liability anytime he's on the field. Second, his struggles come from poor fundamentals. When you're in your 4th year in professional football, having poor fundamentals isn't exactly something that's necessarily easily fixable, nor should professional teams needs to be concerned with re-teaching how to tackle and pursue properly.

CJ Mosley seemingly had some regression, but there's a difference between a player regressing into still being at least an average player, and a player regressing to the level where you legitimately can't put him on the field anymore, and we legitimately saw that with Elam.

The problem with banking on the "reported improved play during training camp", as I addressed earlier, is that there's about 70 guys in camp who have the same reports. Am I supposed to believe that like 80% or more of our training camp participants are having a great camp? I'm sure if I went and read articles on 31 other NFL teams, I'd find that they have 70 studs in training camp also.

You are right that we will find out... and that's what fans should be waiting for. What fans absolutely should NOT be doing is talking about trading our depth at safety based on the premise that some of our other safety depth is having a great training camp, especially when said depth doesn't have a track record of quality play in this league.

In some ways, its just a pet peeve of mine. But at the end of the day, one time, I'd like to actually see this play out. I'd like to see the Ravens trade Lewis to the Texans for a garbage draft pick, Matt Elam becomes the third safety, Webb gets hurt, and Elam becomes the starter and just simply sucks big time.

Why do I want that to happen? Not because I want the Ravens to suck or for them to lose. Its more or less that, at least one time, I get to point directly back at fans who want to be backseat GMs and say "well, you made this decision, now you get to deal with the consequences associated with it". Of course, there are no consequences, because the easiest and laziest part of being a fan is making recommendations that involve reaping 100% of the rewards and 0% of the risk.

When Ozzie makes that deal and it backfires, he's ripped to shreds by some fans (even sometimes hilariously the same fans who supported the deal). It would be nice to see some fans ripped to shreds for this also. Maybe not all the time, but just on special occasions when its clear that they didn't bother to think the decision through.

On the trade bit, I think what you're missing, at least from my perspective, is that the suggestion of trading Lewis is based on the premise that the FO knows what theyre doing since they see these players every day and are in the position to know if Elam/Brooks are playing well enough that Lewis becomes expendable.

I dont think anyone - the OP in particular - is saying definitely trade Lewis no matter what. Just that hey, there is some evidence that Elam/Brooks are improving which would mean we're going to cut at least one decent safety... if all things are equal between 2 or 3 of them, maybe we trade the 1 that can get something in return. And again, based on the premise that this is only happening if the assumptions are in fact true... which would have to be the case if the FO considered a move like that.

The assumption that Elam or Brooks may have improved enough for there to be no difference or a marginal at best difference between them and Lewis is based on the same exact thing the opinion that Lewis is definitely better than those two who cannot replace him - opinion of what you have seen.

As you say so often, we as fans dont have a clue when it comes to these personnel decisions, but at times it seems like what youre saying is other fans opinions on personnel matters dont matter.... but yours does.

Again - it was just an idea. I think we all deal on the premise that "this situation is only plausible is the FO happened to agree with my opinion or what im seeing" which is usually a long shot.... but that happens to be true for both sides.

Someone saying... If X happens then it would make sense to trade Lewis and recoup something - if X is at least possible, and what follows X would improve the Ravens over the alternative, i just dont get knocking the guy. Is X the most likely scenario in this case? No, probably not. But is it completely far-fetched that 2 young players could improve to the below-average level play we've seen from Lewis? Not at all.

That's all.

[BmoreBird22]

55 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

No - i dont think a pre-season game performance says more about who Elam is as a player than 2 years of film... but provided the context that the only film we have on him is from 2 years ago, his first 2 years in the league, and that the pre-season game just happened and has been surrounded by now 2 years of reports of improved play during training camp - id say its reasonable to think the pre-season game is a better representation of who he is as a a player right now.

For me, the biggest issue in year two with Elam was a simple lack of fundamentals. I often thought put himself in a pretty good position to make a play, but he led the league in missed tackles, if I'm remembering correctly. We can say he regressed in a major way (which I'll agree to, to a degree), but it'd be oversimplifying the issue. 

I always thought Elam had the instincts to at least be an in box safety (Detroit and Chicago 2013 proved this), but he just faltered too often by going for the big hit. Blessing in disguise possibly is that he lost his entire 2015 season due to a torn triceps muscle, which likely occurred with Elam diving for a tackle and having his arm fallen on. Had Elam shown wrap up form tackling, I don't think this injury ever occurs. 

And that's the real kicker for me- he underwent an extremely serious injury (one that some consider career threatening) and, much like Joe with his feet and mechanics, probably went ahead and relearned the fundamentals to ensure this type of injury did not occur again.

I also think it's entirely unfair to say that Elam was playing against mostly backups who will never make an NFL roster. He was in on the second team defense against second stringers. Assuming a classic I-formation is your base offense, the second tight end is a second stringer, the third and fourth receivers are a second stringer, and the second running back is a second stringer. Also, the quarterback Elam played against, Derek Anderson, was a 16 game starter at one point and has been a fill in for the teams whose starter went down with injury. No, he isn't a super high level starter, but he's still a starter in a league that routinely finds it very difficult to supply 32 quality starters, let alone quality backups.

So, to say that playing against the second team offense is a bad thing would be really oversimplifying it. Yes, it would have been nice to see him make those plays against Cam Newton and Greg Olsen, but he's still playing against players that are likely to make the Panthers roster and be contributors on a team that many consider the best in the NFL.

However, more importantly, Elam was putting himself in the position to make plays and showed wrap up tackling technique. That's a marked improvement over the years past and he arguably had the best defensive showing in that game. Two straight years of rave reviews in TC and now a game that show those improvements on the field. That's pretty significant. I'll be very curious to see him continue to put this all together, but right now, it's looking very likely that he could get better.

[jazz1988]

3 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Yes, and most fans considered Jimmy Smith to a be a disappointment for that very reason. So why would I consider Matt Elam any different?

I'm fully aware of the struggles that secondary players face in their first year, and I generally have lower expectations than most in that regard. However, in general, I would expect a first round DB to not get beat out by a journeyman FA for that role. I'd expect them to get beat out by a seasoned veteran. 

Though in this case, the actual concern here would be year 2, where the difference between Elam and Jimmy is monumentally different. Would we expect a second year DB to regress and struggle as badly as Elam did in year 2?

 

I didn't consider Jimmy Smith a disappointment at all because he got beat out by Cary Williams.Smith was a rookie and Williams just was playing great in preseason.Journey man or no Journey man you have to give The Ravens scouting team and coach staff their due because they know how to find talent and make them better. it's been like this for quite awhile but I don't get into the journey man and etc type stuff because if a player is in The NFl/on a team he obviously has talent . 

The Ravens are just one of the better team in The NFl that know how to discover defensive talent and maximize it ...I doubt Matt Elam is only player in The NFl that had a  bad second year season after having  a solid season in his rookie year.Elam is a young man it's no telling what was going on  and maybe his head just wasn't in the game like it should be in his second season . 

I think any human being is capable of rebounding from a  embarrassing situation or in this case a  NFl season; so just because Elam last season  where he played all 16 games was bad doesn't mean it will continue and definitely doesn't mean he won't play better this year.

 

 

[rmcjacket23]

Just now, jazz1988 said:

I didn't consider Jimmy Smith a disappointment at all because he got beat out by Cary Williams.Smith was a rookie and Williams just was playing great in preseason.Journey man or no Journey man you have to give The Ravens scouting team and coach staff their due because they know how to find talent and make them better. it's been like this for quite awhile but I don't get into the journey man and etc type stuff because if a player is in The NFl/on a team he obviously has talent . 

The Ravens are just one of the better team in The NFl that know how to discover defensive talent and maximize it ...I doubt Matt Elam is only player in The NFl that had a  bad second year season after having  a solid season in his rookie year.Elam is a young man it's no telling what was going on  and maybe his head just wasn't in the game like it should be in his second season . 

I think any human being is capable of rebounding from a  embarrassing situation or in this case a  NFl season; so just because Elam last season  where he played all 16 games was bad doesn't mean it will continue and definitely doesn't mean he won't play better this year.

 

 

Its not about whether a guy on an NFL team has talent or not. Its purely about expectations and investment. Teams that invest a first round pick in a player, quite obviously, have much, much, much higher expectations than an UDFA they just signed off the street, or even a veteran who never showed more than being a role player in their entire career. I would think that would be obvious at this point.

And then of course there's the investment side. 1st round picks get compensated better than UDFAs or most journeyman do... by a wide margin. Said compensation accounts for both the risk and the expectation that the team takes on with that player. Compensation and expectations go hand in hand. 

And while its great to say "well that doesn't mean he won't ever play better", I can flip the script entirely and its equally true. Just because he performed well in camp or in the preseason doesn't mean he will play better either.

[BmoreBird22]

5 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Its not about whether a guy on an NFL team has talent or not. Its purely about expectations and investment. Teams that invest a first round pick in a player, quite obviously, have much, much, much higher expectations than an UDFA they just signed off the street, or even a veteran who never showed more than being a role player in their entire career. I would think that would be obvious at this point.

And then of course there's the investment side. 1st round picks get compensated better than UDFAs or most journeyman do... by a wide margin. Said compensation accounts for both the risk and the expectation that the team takes on with that player. Compensation and expectations go hand in hand. 

And while its great to say "well that doesn't mean he won't ever play better", I can flip the script entirely and its equally true. Just because he performed well in camp or in the preseason doesn't mean he will play better either.

Regardless of expectations, the coaches are also going to put the best players on the field that will put them in the best spot to win.

Going into 2013, it was pretty well known that this was one of the weakest drafts in quite a while and the Ravens held the 32nd pick, so I'd imagine expectations were tempered quite a bit as to whether or not they'd actually find a quality starter for the team at 32 in one of the worst drafts in recent memory (certainly in the Harbaugh era).

Strictly speaking on the value of his contract, it was never an inordinately large amount. In fact, his base salary in year one and two were lower than Ihedigbo's salary in 2013. Given the new slotting due to the CBA, really once you start hitting the back end of the first round, those contracts really become pretty reasonable for a first round pick, especially based on what they were.

But again, extremely weak draft class, final pick in the first round that might as well have been a second rounder. 

In this case, I'd imagine fan expectations were far higher than that of the coaches.

[jazz1988]

17 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Its not about whether a guy on an NFL team has talent or not. Its purely about expectations and investment. Teams that invest a first round pick in a player, quite obviously, have much, much, much higher expectations than an UDFA they just signed off the street, or even a veteran who never showed more than being a role player in their entire career. I would think that would be obvious at this point.

And then of course there's the investment side. 1st round picks get compensated better than UDFAs or most journeyman do... by a wide margin. Said compensation accounts for both the risk and the expectation that the team takes on with that player. Compensation and expectations go hand in hand. 

And while its great to say "well that doesn't mean he won't ever play better", I can flip the script entirely and its equally true. Just because he performed well in camp or in the preseason doesn't mean he will play better either.

This is  probably the best Elam has ever played in training camp and preseason so far..So yeah you can say  just because he's preforming well in camp and preseason doesn't mean he will play better but atleast I have more evidence to think other wise especially if Matt Elam continues to shine.Even before this year training camp it was mention how better he look last year before he suffered a season ending injury in 2015. 

[rmcjacket23]

4 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Regardless of expectations, the coaches are also going to put the best players on the field that will put them in the best spot to win.

Going into 2013, it was pretty well known that this was one of the weakest drafts in quite a while and the Ravens held the 32nd pick, so I'd imagine expectations were tempered quite a bit as to whether or not they'd actually find a quality starter for the team at 32 in one of the worst drafts in recent memory (certainly in the Harbaugh era).

Strictly speaking on the value of his contract, it was never an inordinately large amount. In fact, his base salary in year one and two were lower than Ihedigbo's salary in 2013. Given the new slotting due to the CBA, really once you start hitting the back end of the first round, those contracts really become pretty reasonable for a first round pick, especially based on what they were.

But again, extremely weak draft class, final pick in the first round that might as well have been a second rounder. 

In this case, I'd imagine fan expectations were far higher than that of the coaches.

Ehh, sort of a clever attempt on the financial side by you.

In 2013 Elam made a little over $3.7M including his signing bonus, and Ihedigbo made $780K. So Elam's actual compensation was about five times that of Ihedigbo's in that season. In fact, Ihedigbo himself had only made a grand total of $3.4M in six seasons prior to the 2013 season, so the Ravens were paying Elam more in year 1 than Ihedigbo had made in his entire six year career to that point.

Plus, you've got a nearly $6.8M guaranteed long term commitment to Elam, with virtually nothing guaranteed to Ihedigbo. So some significant differences there.

Have no issue with expectations being lower for the 32nd pick in the draft, but again, compared to the definition of a journeyman, I don't think expectation is a tight competition for that job.

As far as fan expectations being higher than that of coaches, I'm pretty sure that applies to basically 100% of players, regardless of whether they were drafted, UDFAs, or some guy we pulled from the CFL. Heck, just two years ago, there was frequent discussion on here about James Hurst as the future franchise LT of this team. Somehow I don't think the coaching staff quite saw it that way.

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, jazz1988 said:

This is  probably the best Elam has ever played in training camp and preseason so far..So yeah you can say  just because he's preforming well in camp and preseason doesn't mean he will play better but atleast I have more evidence to think other wise especially if Matt Elam continues to shine.Even before this year training camp it was mention how better he look last year before he suffered a season ending injury in 2015. 

I wouldn't really call what beat writers report on Twitter vs actual game film as "better evidence".

Frankly, having the best training camp of his career is sort of the minimum expectation for Elam at this point, considering how the last few years have gone for him.

[BmoreBird22]

17 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Ehh, sort of a clever attempt on the financial side by you.

In 2013 Elam made a little over $3.7M including his signing bonus, and Ihedigbo made $780K. So Elam's actual compensation was about five times that of Ihedigbo's in that season. In fact, Ihedigbo himself had only made a grand total of $3.4M in six seasons prior to the 2013 season, so the Ravens were paying Elam more in year 1 than Ihedigbo had made in his entire six year career to that point.

Plus, you've got a nearly $6.8M guaranteed long term commitment to Elam, with virtually nothing guaranteed to Ihedigbo. So some significant differences there.

Have no issue with expectations being lower for the 32nd pick in the draft, but again, compared to the definition of a journeyman, I don't think expectation is a tight competition for that job.

As far as fan expectations being higher than that of coaches, I'm pretty sure that applies to basically 100% of players, regardless of whether they were drafted, UDFAs, or some guy we pulled from the CFL. Heck, just two years ago, there was frequent discussion on here about James Hurst as the future franchise LT of this team. Somehow I don't think the coaching staff quite saw it that way.

Okay, still doesn't change the fact that in year two, Elam was making around $700K. Base salaries for rookies are fairly reasonable now. Signing bonuses aside, we aren't talking about absurd amounts of cash anymore.

However, I don't understand why you'd view it as a disappointment if a rookie first rounder can't beat out a journeyman player (who started and played well for the SB representing Patriots) when Ihedigbo already knew and had played for the Ravens defense. Not every player is drafted in the first round because they're meant to start day one. Some players are drafted merely with the intention of being eased in due to immense potential that the rookie possesses. Would you consider Joe Flacco to be a disappointment  in his rookie season if Troy Smith never got sick?  

Basically, the one thing you preach about, fan expectations vs FO expectations, are colliding here because in all likelihood, the Ravens never viewed Elam as a guaranteed starter, but you're viewing him as a disappointment because the expectation from you is that he should have started. The FO probably knew damn well he'd need time to develop and were in no rush to throw him in if they didn't have to.

[rmcjacket23]

10 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Okay, still doesn't change the fact that in year two, Elam was making around $700K. Base salaries for rookies are fairly reasonable now. Signing bonuses aside, we aren't talking about absurd amounts of cash anymore.

However, I don't understand why you'd view it as a disappointment if a rookie first rounder can't beat out a journeyman player (who started and played well for the SB representing Patriots) when Ihedigbo already knew and had played for the Ravens defense. Not every player is drafted in the first round because they're meant to start day one. Some players are drafted merely with the intention of being eased in due to immense potential that the rookie possesses. Would you consider Joe Flacco to be a disappointment  in his rookie season if Troy Smith never got sick?  

Basically, the one thing you preach about, fan expectations vs FO expectations, are colliding here because in all likelihood, the Ravens never viewed Elam as a guaranteed starter, but you're viewing him as a disappointment because the expectation from you is that he should have started. The FO probably knew damn well he'd need time to develop and were in no rush to throw him in if they didn't have to.

1. But why do I care about year 2 when Ihedigbo wasn't even on the team in year 2? I care about year 1, when they were both on the same team at the same time.

2. I mean I guess I'd buy the whole "he played well for the Patriots" thing, except it would be troubling to think that after the Pats resigned him the very next season and he failed to make the team at final cuts, which is what ultimately led to him signing with us. 

3. In general, yes, I did consider Joe not beating out Troy Smith for the job to be a disappointment. Though at the time QBs were still being largely "phased in" to the team, so it was far more common for a rookie QB to sit than it was for a secondary player, though the latter is more common now. If this were 2013, and Joe was sitting behind a Troy Smith-like player after being a mid 1st round QB, I'd certainly be disappointed.

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, rmcjacket23 said:

1. But why do I care about year 2 when Ihedigbo wasn't even on the team in year 2? I care about year 1, when they were both on the same team at the same time.

2. I mean I guess I'd buy the whole "he played well for the Patriots" thing, except it would be troubling to think that after the Pats resigned him the very next season and he failed to make the team at final cuts, which is what ultimately led to him signing with us. 

3. In general, yes, I did consider Joe not beating out Troy Smith for the job to be a disappointment. Though at the time QBs were still being largely "phased in" to the team, so it was far more common for a rookie QB to sit than it was for a secondary player, though the latter is more common now. If this were 2013, and Joe was sitting behind a Troy Smith-like player after being a mid 1st round QB, I'd certainly be disappointed.

1. I'm merely pointing out that the signing bonus isn't really a huge factor to me since it's paid all up front.

2. It's not really unsettling to me when you consider that Devin McCourty had shifted back to safety and Patrick Chung was returning from injury. He wasn't ever really viewed as a long term option up in NE, more of a stopgap until the pieces fell together, much like how I imagine the Ravens viewed Huff and Ihedigbo upon drafting Elam.

3. I really don't understand why this would be a disappointment when there are plenty of examples of first rounders either flat out not playing or being used purely as rotational pieces, something not seen with safeties.

[jazz1988]

34 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I wouldn't really call what beat writers report on Twitter vs actual game film as "better evidence".

Frankly, having the best training camp of his career is sort of the minimum expectation for Elam at this point, considering how the last few years have gone for him.

Who ever said I got my information from beat writers off Twitter?. You still only counting 2014 which is one bad season in Elam career so far. Better evidence or no better evidence, I think me talking about 2015 and now is more relevant in this matter concerning Matt Elam.

 

 

[rmcjacket23]

9 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

1. I'm merely pointing out that the signing bonus isn't really a huge factor to me since it's paid all up front.

2. It's not really unsettling to me when you consider that Devin McCourty had shifted back to safety and Patrick Chung was returning from injury. He wasn't ever really viewed as a long term option up in NE, more of a stopgap until the pieces fell together, much like how I imagine the Ravens viewed Huff and Ihedigbo upon drafting Elam.

3. I really don't understand why this would be a disappointment when there are plenty of examples of first rounders either flat out not playing or being used purely as rotational pieces, something not seen with safeties.

Because I think a lot of those examples would revolve around quality veterans winning the job over the rookie, or the FO intentionally drafting a guy with the intention of easing him into a starting role. That's not something I think Elam qualified as. It wasn't the end of the world if he didn't win a starting job, but I don't think anybody thought he was taken with the anticipation of him having to sit for a year to learn how to play.

In particular, with corners and secondary players, there's often the case where a team already has two established veterans on the team, but maybe one is in a declining phase due to age/injury history and/or they know they won't be able to afford to retain him much longer. Pretty much the entire secondary situation with the Bengals.

[rmcjacket23]

7 minutes ago, jazz1988 said:

Who ever said I got my information from beat writers off Twitter?. You still only counting 2014 which is one bad season in Elam career so far. Better evidence or no better evidence, I think me talking about 2015 and now is more relevant in this matter concerning Matt Elam.

 

 

Is there any other possible source? It doesn't matter if its off Twitter or not... the source of your information (assuming its not you going down to camp everyday) is either something the coaching staff told you, which they rarely say a ton negative about their own players, or some local beat writer writing an article or observation about what they saw at camp that day. 

I don't care about 2015 because Elam didn't play in 2015. Good camp, bad camp, completely irrelevant. If I had a dime for every time I heard a player who had a bad season the year before had a great camp the next year, and then in fact wasn't significantly better when the season actually started, I'd own the Ravens by now. This is especially true when, again, the source of the "good camp" reports is a beat writer giving observations.

When its all said and done, the coaching staff will give you their impression and judgment about whether a guy had a good camp or not based on their roster decisions.

Put it this way... if Elam doesn't end up making the team, its safe enough to assume that he either did NOT have a good camp, or he didn't have as good of a camp as his competition, and in this league, there's not much difference between the two. That would directly contradict everything you've heard, and guess which source is more credible?

There will be players who have been reported to be having "good camps" who will not make this team. That's a foregone conclusion. That's why I don't start drawing conclusions from those reports.

Edited August 17, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, rmcjacket23 said:

Because I think a lot of those examples would revolve around quality veterans winning the job over the rookie, or the FO intentionally drafting a guy with the intention of easing him into a starting role. That's not something I think Elam qualified as. It wasn't the end of the world if he didn't win a starting job, but I don't think anybody thought he was taken with the anticipation of him having to sit for a year to learn how to play.

In particular, with corners and secondary players, there's often the case where a team already has two established veterans on the team, but maybe one is in a declining phase due to age/injury history and/or they know they won't be able to afford to retain him much longer. Pretty much the entire secondary situation with the Bengals.

But that's a fan expectation that he should have been ready day one to play. Is there a place where the Ravens said he should be the day one starter? 

DJ Humphries was widely viewed as the most pro ready NFL LT in the draft last year by fans and the media, but the Cardinals made him a weekly inactive, even with a terrible situation at RG and C, and a questionable RT situation. 

Shane Ray didn't start a game this year for the Broncos, and that's even with Demarcus Ware missing five games and six starts. Know who took the starting job in those weeks? Shaq Barrett, an UDFA from 2014.

Andrus Peat only started in the event of injury despite Tim Lelito being a pretty atrocious pass blocker at LG.

Despite having one of the most anemic OLB groups in the NFL, Bud Dupree started only five games. The player to beat him out was Arthur Moats, a sixth round pick from the Bills.

Really, the only one with pretty established vets in front of him was Trae Waynes who will not be starting this year in Minnesota, either.

[rmcjacket23]

9 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

But that's a fan expectation that he should have been ready day one to play. Is there a place where the Ravens said he should be the day one starter? 

DJ Humphries was widely viewed as the most pro ready NFL LT in the draft last year by fans and the media, but the Cardinals made him a weekly inactive, even with a terrible situation at RG and C, and a questionable RT situation. 

Shane Ray didn't start a game this year for the Broncos, and that's even with Demarcus Ware missing five games and six starts. Know who took the starting job in those weeks? Shaq Barrett, an UDFA from 2014.

Andrus Peat only started in the event of injury despite Tim Lelito being a pretty atrocious pass blocker at LG.

Despite having one of the most anemic OLB groups in the NFL, Bud Dupree started only five games. The player to beat him out was Arthur Moats, a sixth round pick from the Bills.

Really, the only one with pretty established vets in front of him was Trae Waynes who will not be starting this year in Minnesota, either.

And do you think the fanbase of these franchises was generally OK with this? Do you think Broncos fans were content with the fact that Shane Ray wasn't seeing significant snaps even though Ware was out? I can say for certain, having spent a lot of time in Pittsburgh last year, that Steelers fans were far from content with the idea of Bud Dupree starting only five games on a bad defense that desperately need youth and speed.

If Albert McClellan had beaten out CJ Mosley for the starting job in 2014, would you have been fine with this?

Sure, the FO or coaching staff might have been. But that's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is about fan expectations. There is no rationalizing those. 

Most of the time we never know what the teams actual expectations are, and when they do tell us, most fans never listen. 

Ozzie already laid out an expectation that he thinks it will be difficult for the Ravens to return to the playoffs this season. It would appear that most, if not all, fans have completely ignored this. 

Edited August 17, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[Moderator 3]

Could we PLEASE resume discussing football instead of the fans?  Thank you.

[jazz1988]

22 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Is there any other possible source? It doesn't matter if its off Twitter or not... the source of your information (assuming its not you going down to camp everyday) is either something the coaching staff told you, which they rarely say a ton negative about their own players, or some local beat writer writing an article or observation about what they saw at camp that day. 

I don't care about 2015 because Elam didn't play in 2015. Good camp, bad camp, completely irrelevant. If I had a dime for every time I heard a player who had a bad season the year before had a great camp the next year, and then in fact wasn't significantly better when the season actually started, I'd own the Ravens by now. This is especially true when, again, the source of the "good camp" reports is a beat writer giving observations.

When its all said and done, the coaching staff will give you their impression and judgment about whether a guy had a good camp or not based on their roster decisions.

Put it this way... if Elam doesn't end up making the team, its safe enough to assume that he either did NOT have a good camp, or he didn't have as good of a camp as his competition, and in this league, there's not much difference between the two. That would directly contradict everything you've heard, and guess which source is more credible?

There will be players who have been reported to be having "good camps" who will not make this team. That's a foregone conclusion. That's why I don't start drawing conclusions from those reports.

So basically you trying to tell me professional writers thats been watching this team for years  are not credible enough when they  post up  training camp notes and observations? Since you don't really watch preseason games or count that as playing, that too isn't credible enough for you either.

 

Hmmmm ok. All I ever said was if Matt Elam and Terrance Brooks continue to impress through out training camp and preseason, Kendrick Lewis maybe the odd man out but you been debating with me for the  longest  as if I'm saying Matt Elam is elite or something .

How can training camp be considered totally irrelevant ? You think Jimmy Smith was handed the number one corner job base off nothing .

I'm done debating this as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2016 by jazz1988

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, rmcjacket23 said:

And do you think the fanbase of these franchises was generally OK with this? Do you think Broncos fans were content with the fact that Shane Ray wasn't seeing significant snaps even though Ware was out?

If Albert McClellan had beaten out CJ Mosley for the starting job in 2014, would you have been fine with this?

Sure, the FO or coaching staff might have been. But that's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is about fan expectations. There is no rationalizing those. 

Honestly, I don't think the Broncos fans cared because Barrett averaged almost a sack per start and Ray was widely viewed as a pass rush specialist to begin his career, anyway.

Probably not because what fan doesn't want to see their new rookie on the field? I was disappointed that Upshaw didn't beat out McClellin for the starting job in 2012, but that was only because I really wanted to see Upshaw get on the field as the Ravens first pick.

And let me be frank here- I wanted Elam to start. I really did because he was a first rounder, but I also understood that he wasn't exactly a finished product coming out of Florida.

You were recently trying to make it a FO expectation due to draft status and money, but now it's just a fan expectation? Got it.

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Honestly, I don't think the Broncos fans cared because Barrett averaged almost a sack per start and Ray was widely viewed as a pass rush specialist to begin his career, anyway.

Probably not because what fan doesn't want to see their new rookie on the field? I was disappointed that Upshaw didn't beat out McClellin for the starting job in 2012, but that was only because I really wanted to see Upshaw get on the field as the Ravens first pick.

And let me be frank here- I wanted Elam to start. I really did because he was a first rounder, but I also understood that he wasn't exactly a finished product coming out of Florida.

You were recently trying to make it a FO expectation due to draft status and money, but now it's just a fan expectation? Got it.

Yes, long term, that would be a FO expectation due to draft status and money. As you already agreed with, we don't actually know what the FO's expectation was. Entirely possible they were disappointed as well, but that wasn't conveyed publicly. Surely wouldn't be the first or last time.

[rmcjacket23]

4 minutes ago, jazz1988 said:

So basically you trying to tell me professional writers thats been watching this team for years  are not credible enough when they  post up  training camp notes and observations? Since you don't really watch preseason games or count that as playing, that too isn't credible enough for you either.

 

Hmmmm ok. All I ever said was if Matt Elam and Terrance Brooks continue to impress through out training camp and preseason, Kendrick Lewis maybe the odd man out but you been debating with me for the  longest  as if I'm saying Matt Elam is elite or something .

I'm done debating this as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, that's what I'm trying to tell you. The reasoning I've already laid out several times... they post good camp next to about 60-70 guys a season, some of which won't even make the team. So how am I supposed to take that?

They are writers for the most part, not necessarily analysts. Some of them have relatively no experience with football whatsoever, others have some and are very good. All depends on the writer. In some cases, they are merely just reporting what they heard somebody else say, or what somebody else told them.

Given that I don't watch preseason games, I'm not the one in here saying how well or poorly somebody did during the preseason games or in camp. For all you know, neither did the source of the information you are getting. You can likely watch it yourself and draw the same or perhaps even very different conclusions. I'm sure if I watch the preseason game on Saturday, I'll come away with a different opinion of at least one player than what the very said writers believe.

[Boddiebroadus]

I'll say this, safety isn't a position where rookies shine. It usually takes a while to get acculmated. Also in Elams second season he play a lot of slot corner which is not his normal position. So he was playing at slot just on pure talent but with no real experience at the position. I really think he can emerge as a good player and be a starter for this team. Plus Lewis sucks and Webb will probably (knock on wood) get injured again so we're gonna need a lot of depth at safety. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

4 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

For me, the biggest issue in year two with Elam was a simple lack of fundamentals. I often thought put himself in a pretty good position to make a play, but he led the league in missed tackles, if I'm remembering correctly. We can say he regressed in a major way (which I'll agree to, to a degree), but it'd be oversimplifying the issue. 

I always thought Elam had the instincts to at least be an in box safety (Detroit and Chicago 2013 proved this), but he just faltered too often by going for the big hit. Blessing in disguise possibly is that he lost his entire 2015 season due to a torn triceps muscle, which likely occurred with Elam diving for a tackle and having his arm fallen on. Had Elam shown wrap up form tackling, I don't think this injury ever occurs. 

And that's the real kicker for me- he underwent an extremely serious injury (one that some consider career threatening) and, much like Joe with his feet and mechanics, probably went ahead and relearned the fundamentals to ensure this type of injury did not occur again.

I also think it's entirely unfair to say that Elam was playing against mostly backups who will never make an NFL roster. He was in on the second team defense against second stringers. Assuming a classic I-formation is your base offense, the second tight end is a second stringer, the third and fourth receivers are a second stringer, and the second running back is a second stringer. Also, the quarterback Elam played against, Derek Anderson, was a 16 game starter at one point and has been a fill in for the teams whose starter went down with injury. No, he isn't a super high level starter, but he's still a starter in a league that routinely finds it very difficult to supply 32 quality starters, let alone quality backups.

So, to say that playing against the second team offense is a bad thing would be really oversimplifying it. Yes, it would have been nice to see him make those plays against Cam Newton and Greg Olsen, but he's still playing against players that are likely to make the Panthers roster and be contributors on a team that many consider the best in the NFL.

However, more importantly, Elam was putting himself in the position to make plays and showed wrap up tackling technique. That's a marked improvement over the years past and he arguably had the best defensive showing in that game. Two straight years of rave reviews in TC and now a game that show those improvements on the field. That's pretty significant. I'll be very curious to see him continue to put this all together, but right now, it's looking very likely that he could get better.

I dont necessarily disagree with anything you say - except that Elam was also in the game for a good amount at the end. He was in on the game ending play. Those werent 2nd stringer, borderline starters.

And it was 2 plays in the 4th quarter that a lot of people are talking about when citing his improved play.

But other than that - im with you.