A return of "Organized Chaos"?

[757RavensFan]

This was a very interesting quote by Harbs regarding the defense and new looks/schemes to confuse their opponents. Granted it's Pees, but are we going to see a more aggressive defense this year?

“Dean [Pees] made a big point in the meeting yesterday that every DB needs to know the dime spot. Every linebacker needs to know all the front defensive line positions, because that creates uncertainty for the offense and who lines up where and some of their assignments. We want to be a very versatile defense that way.”

 

[Stevin]

1 hour ago, 757RavensFan said:

but are we going to see a more aggressive defense this year?

i hope so.

but it's hard to be a top defence without good secondary , and it's hard to be a good secondary without top corner... and looks like we don't have one

[RavensFanMania]

This defense is becoming very versatile in a very big way. 

[edthehead]

the the additions of our 2 new defensive coaches

I think will aide in "organized chaos"

Frasier helps the secondary

I forgot our new def line coach name,(just remember something about a drive thru window) 

In my opinion

coaches put players in position and know their strength and weakness so they can succeed

our defense is predicated on chaos

organized , unorganized

just bring the CHAOS !!!!!!

 

 

[The Raven]

I wouldn't call it organized chaos. I'd call it using versatile players in a variety of ways. Dean has tried to do this kind of stuff his entire time here. We just haven't seen results because Ozzie got Great Value ingredients instead of the good stuff from the top shelf. Doesn't matter who's cooking if the ingredients suck. We simply haven't had explosive players. We haven't even had versatile players on D, other than Levine, McClellan, McPhee, and maybe Jernigan. I mean, for the past couple years we thought Upshaw was versatile since we played him at DT in the nickel, but in actuality, it was just because there was nowhere else to put him.

When we had McPhee, he moved around a lot. Jernigan, too, has moved around a lot. McClellan has moved around a lot. We're using Levine at ILB, and Correa is all over. Maybe you could call it "organized chaos" - whatever that really means - but I think that's just a lame, nostalgic phrase that makes people remember the glory days of having Ray, Suggs, Reed, and Ngata in their primes. I think I just hate the phrase because I don't even know what it means. 

If it means zone blitzes and using versatile players all over the field, "organized chaos" never left. Pagano and Pees both did/do that. The issue is that our defense has seriously lacked athleticism and talent in recent years. Spending a second round pick on Upshaw would have been brilliant in 1972, not so much in 2012. I wish Sergio Kindle would have worked out, and I wish there was some way we could have kept Paul Kruger. Kindle set us back, and Upshaw set us back even more. Terrence Cody set us back a lot too. Instead of getting with the times and getting an athletic penetrator, Ozzie went and got Terrence "Lardass" Cody.

I feel like I'm just ranting at this point - and I am - so TL;DR: We never stopped trying to do "organized chaos" on a coaching level, but we just haven't had the tools to do it effectively.

[Willbacker]

@The RavenWe just haven't seen results because Ozzie got Great Value ingredients instead of the good stuff from the top shelf.

^^^^^^^^^

Funny and extremely correct. Just goes to show ya how we got spoiled by having the best MLB and FS in the game possibly in history. "Organized chaos" was basically bringing people from all over the field and causing havoc. The only way this comes back is keeping the front 7 rotation fresh which has been the Ravens way for awhile even under Pees. It just seems Pees has a tendency for getting soft on 3rd downs and at the ends of the halfs and this spoils the fruits of all the labor.

 

Edited July 30, 2016 by Willbacker

[ravefan52]

14 hours ago, The Raven said:

I wouldn't call it organized chaos. I'd call it using versatile players in a variety of ways. Dean has tried to do this kind of stuff his entire time here. We just haven't seen results because Ozzie got Great Value ingredients instead of the good stuff from the top shelf. Doesn't matter who's cooking if the ingredients suck. We simply haven't had explosive players. We haven't even had versatile players on D, other than Levine, McClellan, McPhee, and maybe Jernigan. I mean, for the past couple years we thought Upshaw was versatile since we played him at DT in the nickel, but in actuality, it was just because there was nowhere else to put him.

When we had McPhee, he moved around a lot. Jernigan, too, has moved around a lot. McClellan has moved around a lot. We're using Levine at ILB, and Correa is all over. Maybe you could call it "organized chaos" - whatever that really means - but I think that's just a lame, nostalgic phrase that makes people remember the glory days of having Ray, Suggs, Reed, and Ngata in their primes. I think I just hate the phrase because I don't even know what it means. 

If it means zone blitzes and using versatile players all over the field, "organized chaos" never left. Pagano and Pees both did/do that. The issue is that our defense has seriously lacked athleticism and talent in recent years. Spending a second round pick on Upshaw would have been brilliant in 1972, not so much in 2012. I wish Sergio Kindle would have worked out, and I wish there was some way we could have kept Paul Kruger. Kindle set us back, and Upshaw set us back even more. Terrence Cody set us back a lot too. Instead of getting with the times and getting an athletic penetrator, Ozzie went and got Terrence "Lardass" Cody.

I feel like I'm just ranting at this point - and I am - so TL;DR: We never stopped trying to do "organized chaos" on a coaching level, but we just haven't had the tools to do it effectively.

When I think organized chaos I think Rex Ryan defense, particularly here and with the Jets. Blitzes can from anywhere, mixed coverages with lots of disguise across the entire field. Guys faking blitzing and DL in two point stances. So much is going on it looks like chaos, but it's all structured. 

Nowadays, I don't think Pees is creative enough and we've lacked versatile, athletic players. Correa and Kaufusi could be the start of change there though. McPhee is easily the guy I miss most. We should have cut an older player to resign him honestly.

[JoeyFlex5]

more like organized confusion? lol harbaugh has always loved versatile players, since he became the coach we have relentlessly pursued players who we think can play more than 1 position and we are not shy about throwing them into unfamiliar territory and coaching them up until they have 2-3 positions mastered. on offense we love swing linemen, receiving backs, WRs who can tackle for special teams, and on defense we love safety/cb hybrids, we want our safeties to be able to line up face to face with a slot receiver and jam him into the sideline if need be, we like LB's that dont have to leave the field because they play all downs, we like to be able to interchange our DEs and DTs with very little difference, we want our 34DEs to be starting caliber 43DTs(jernigan, henry, art jones), we want our nickel DEs to be able to stop the run or drop into coverage as an OLB in our 34 front, hell we have had OLBs line up at nose/DT successfully in certain packages(upshaw, mcphee) we want 34OLBs to be phyical enough to play 5tech without skipping a beat(mcphee, kruger, kaufusi), we want edge setters/rushers to be able to play ILB on any given snap(correa, mclellan, even mosley) 

 

we have  seen for years that we like a versatile roster, guys who can play anywhere in a pinch, but a lot of it has resulted in getting jack of all trade guys and masters of none, we havent had enough impact from key positions because we have guys who are just decent at a bunch of different positions but cant be difference makers at 1 spot, over time we started to fall flat because of this, but with guys like correa, kaufusi, henry, carl davis, jernigan, and zadarius smith, i think we finally have the pieces in place to see that versatile front seven philosophy really make a splash, we have jack of all trade guys but NOW those guys are young and explosive and can make big plays, when before they were just a bunch of JAGs who could play multiple spots at a decent level. the past 3 draft classes are going to be what defines whether or not harbaughs experiment of supreme versatility is a failure or a success. 

 

when you really break it down, you know what it reminds me of? think bellichicks philosophy of drafting and developing offensive players, but for defense, he has always had this same exact philosophy on offense of having multiple position guys and creating mismatches on every single snap, hes a mad scientist with mismatches and he handpicks players to fit this philosophy, we are seeing the same exact thing on defense coming together, i dont think ive seen too many teams who put as much emphasis on versatile defenders as us.

[Tru11]

last year the defense was just as aggressive as it was under pagano and rex.

however we dont have the talent nor probably will ever have the talent we had under those 2 guys.

so its borderline crazy to expect results coming close to those 2.
not to mention offenses are now spreading out defenses more which makes it harder to do.

organised chaos left after reed ray ngata and suggs passed their primes.
chances off seeing guys as good as they where on 1 team are pretty slim and im not even considering the other highly talented players we had.

[harfordravenfan]

     Nice topic and comments are good reads. What team wouldn't want such versatility, my concern is that rookies may not be given enough time to get comfortable in their position before being pushed into learning another.

     

[jazz1988]

18 hours ago, The Raven said:

Levine,McClellan, McPhee, and maybe Jernigan. I mean, for the past couple years we thought Upshaw was versatile since we played him at DT in the nickel, but in actuality, it was just because there was nowhere else to put him.

If it means zone blitzes and using versatile players all over the field, "organized chaos" never left. Pagano and Pees both did/do that. The issue is that our defense has seriously lacked athleticism and talent in recent years. Spending a second round pick on Upshaw would have been brilliant in 1972, not so much in 2012. I wish Sergio Kindle would have worked out, and I wish there was some way we could have kept Paul Kruger. Kindle set us back, and Upshaw set us back even more. Terrence Cody set us back a lot too. Instead of getting with the times and getting an athletic penetrator, Ozzie went and got Terrence "Lardass" Cody.

 

I disagree with your statement on Upshaw.He was a second round pick and the expectation for him should have been more than a solid edge setter but in today's NFL you still need linebackers that can set the edge because believe it or not you will get run on if you can't . I still remember to this day how Paul Kruger was terrible setting the edge in 2012 .

Upshaw main job until last year was to set the edge, cover, and beat up on tight ends and I thought he did those things well. It's unfortunate that he wasn't able to become better as a pass rusher  but I thought he was a solid player.

 

I disagree with you on Terrance Cody as well. I think he would have been a solid player  if he had stayed healthy. The last time when he was actually healthy/ a starter The Ravens  run defense was ranked 3rd overall . The Ravens run a 3-4 defense so the nose tackle isn't expected to consistently get after the quarterback.

Dan Harrison isn't very athletic either and he got  a 40+million dollar contract by The Giants.Speed is needed on The Ravens defense but I don't think Upshaw and Terrance Cody set them back.

[Tru11]

when you loose players from the caliber like ray , ed and ngata , you are bound to take a step back especially when the other stalwart named suggs is getting up there in age.

the only way you wont take a step back is if you manage to replace them with players of similar skill.

 

[January J]

Sounds very intriguing. We've got a lot more pass rushers this year and I'd love to see us get back to the Ravens of old striking fear in our opponents. Hopefully we can dial up a lot of disguised blitzes from all over the place. Now that we got a more disciplined safety in weddle we can take more chances like that bringin the heat. This group has a lot of potential. Just gotta put it all together. I expect Zadarius and Timmy to make huge strides and I also see jimmy becoming an official shut down corner. I smell sacks and turnovers galore. Everything looks good on paper but we all know how things can quickly fall apart after a few injuries. Luckily we've got more depth this year behind Suggs and doom and contingency plans in place. And if pees struggles at all whatsoever - income Leslie. If he doesn't do well I don't see him making it past week 6. I know he took a lot of flack last year But I think keeping him around was actually smart and will  help to have some continuity. After all it was slim pickings with what he was workin with.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

I think it is a bit more difficult to be versatile in a 3-4 defense which is primarily what we run now as opposed to the 4-6 under Ryan.

A 3-4 end is built more like a DT than a LB and is typically stronger and bigger. It is not very often you find that rare combination of size and speed that can move out to OLB. So then we're talking about versatility in your linebackers and that means can a guy play inside and outside. A guy that is a good MLB can be a good OLB, not not necessarily vice-versa. Edge guys in a 3-4 are usually rushers first and maybe aren't so great at coverage, which MLB's have to do quite a bit. Then you get down to safety and corner and I think we're forgetting about Webb who was a safety in college, came to the NFL to play corner and was a good one until his injuries crept up on him, and now is moving back to safety...and it wouldn't shock me to see him in perhaps dime or nickel playing some corner.

So the "chaos" in this case isn't really where you put a guy as a position, but how well you disguise where the blitz is coming from.

I was one of the people that was never happy with the Upshaw pick. I didn't see what the Ravens saw in him and never thought he would be a guy to wrack up a lot of sacks. I thought he was poor at his job. He couldn't cover, and he didn't set a good edge as people seem to think. There was a game against Cleveland that both Mike Preston and I called him out because he got completely owned and exposed in the run game. He whiffed on every chance he had to make a tackle. They ran on him once, saw what he did, and then kept on running at him. You don't draft a guy that high to just be a edge setter against the run.

Terrence Cody was a horrible pick. At his size he did 19 reps of 225. He was weak for his size for sure, tremendously out of shape, and that success on the defense had more to do with Ngata than Cody. It is kind of telling that nobody else showed any interest in Cody when he became a free agent. We Also had Jarret Johnson who was a real edge setter and Bernard Pollard to help in the box.

[Filmstudy]

On 7/30/2016 at 9:38 AM, 757RavensFan said:

This was a very interesting quote by Harbs regarding the defense and new looks/schemes to confuse their opponents. Granted it's Pees, but are we going to see a more aggressive defense this year?

“Dean [Pees] made a big point in the meeting yesterday that every DB needs to know the dime spot. Every linebacker needs to know all the front defensive line positions, because that creates uncertainty for the offense and who lines up where and some of their assignments. We want to be a very versatile defense that way.”

 

I agree, this is the most significant quote I have heard from Harbaugh in a long time, because it's alludes to a complete departure from the scheme the Ravens have played for 3 seasons (only 62 dime snaps in total 2013-15).  I asked him the question after I noticed Levine was practicing with the linebackers.

The idea of the sort of organized chaos created by the 2000 or 2006 or 2008 Ravens wasn't predicated on the great front 7, it was variation of DB usage.

Please don't get me wrong, I loved what Pernell McPhee did for the Ravens pass rush when he was here, but Rex and Marvin Lewis caused confusion by frequently having 6 or 7 DBs on the field.

The 2000 Ravens, with one of the greatest front 7s ever assembled, used 6 or 7 DBs on more than 34% of plays.  The last 3 seasons, the Ravens have used 6 or 7 DBs on just 2.3% of plays.  It's very difficult to confuse the defense on a passing down when you only have one pass defense, a 2-ILB (or 3-ILB) nickel.  

Edited August 3, 2016 by Filmstudy

[JoeyFlex5]

2 hours ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

I think it is a bit more difficult to be versatile in a 3-4 defense which is primarily what we run now as opposed to the 4-6 under Ryan.

A 3-4 end is built more like a DT than a LB and is typically stronger and bigger. It is not very often you find that rare combination of size and speed that can move out to OLB. So then we're talking about versatility in your linebackers and that means can a guy play inside and outside. A guy that is a good MLB can be a good OLB, not not necessarily vice-versa. Edge guys in a 3-4 are usually rushers first and maybe aren't so great at coverage, which MLB's have to do quite a bit. Then you get down to safety and corner and I think we're forgetting about Webb who was a safety in college, came to the NFL to play corner and was a good one until his injuries crept up on him, and now is moving back to safety...and it wouldn't shock me to see him in perhaps dime or nickel playing some corner.

So the "chaos" in this case isn't really where you put a guy as a position, but how well you disguise where the blitz is coming from.

I was one of the people that was never happy with the Upshaw pick. I didn't see what the Ravens saw in him and never thought he would be a guy to wrack up a lot of sacks. I thought he was poor at his job. He couldn't cover, and he didn't set a good edge as people seem to think. There was a game against Cleveland that both Mike Preston and I called him out because he got completely owned and exposed in the run game. He whiffed on every chance he had to make a tackle. They ran on him once, saw what he did, and then kept on running at him. You don't draft a guy that high to just be a edge setter against the run.

Terrence Cody was a horrible pick. At his size he did 19 reps of 225. He was weak for his size for sure, tremendously out of shape, and that success on the defense had more to do with Ngata than Cody. It is kind of telling that nobody else showed any interest in Cody when he became a free agent. We Also had Jarret Johnson who was a real edge setter and Bernard Pollard to help in the box.

4-6?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I would just call it being multiple. 

We now have the guys to do it, where we can send out one personnel package that can play several different alignments. 

With DBs playing LB it makes our base formation and nickel the same in practice. Levine can drop in, blitz a gap, play zone coverage in the flat or middle, or he can drop out and cover a receiver, TE, or RB. He can be multiple things without giving any hint to the offense pre-snap. 

Guys like Kaufusi, Suggs, Doom, Urban, Zadarius maybe even Judon and Ochi can all rush standing up, cover a zone, put their hand down and rush, and Urban/Z/Kaufusi can even kick inside in sub packages. 

McLellan, Orr, Correa and Mosley can play ILB, 4-3 OLB, or even 3-4 OLB as the front shifts around. 

In effect we can go from 3-4 under/over to 4-3, to nickel to dime all with one personnel grouping on the field which allows us to check into what we need to best cover the play and confuses the offense from being able to audible pre-snap into something they know beats is. 

The possibilities are beautiful. But it takes everyone knowing every role to hold each other accountable and to understand what look to show, what look to actually settle in to, and why that's the right combo of front and coverage. 

Provlem before was - you can understand the mental aspect all you want, but if you don't have the versatile pieces with athleticism to pull it off it won't work. Doesn't matter if you read a quick hot route crossing route to the slot guy if you don't have the LB with the quickness and coverage ability to react and jump it. 

The versatility is there now. Lots of young, athletic pieces. It's up to them to learn the roles, and get it down mentally so they don't have to think when they're on the field... And to avoid mistakes with responsibilities. When you're trying to be that multiple - if even one guy blows his assignment or thinks he's supposed to be in a different alignment, it exposes everything. 

We'll see but exciting so far. 

[EdTheMythicalOne]

9 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

4-6?

the 46 defense.

[JoeyFlex5]

19 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

the 46 defense.

Just wanted to make sure you werent literally calling it a 4-6 front lol. Some people have that misconception and it irks me, mainly because I've heard professional analysts call it that 

[trevorsteadman]

Correa is catching on really fast and Onwuasor is probably making the most strides out of any player so far. Add in Webb who can play both safety and corner for us and we have a very versatile defense. I would feel a lot better if we still had Will Hill at safety but you can't have everything. 

Correa as a inside/outside linebacker.

Onwuasor as a safety/linebacker.

Webb as a safety/cornerback.

Of course Correa and Webb are locks to make the roster. It will be interesting to see if the undrafted guy makes the team. If he does this defense can give several new looks to create turnovers. 

[Ravenseconbeast]

Dont we all wish to see our Ravens defense back on the prime again?  

I miss that part of Ravens...:)   Lets see what our boys can cook up in the field!

[CalvinSmoke]

Good to see Pees not being attacked for once.

Pees is a really smart guy, and when he took the job he knew he didn't have athletes. He hinted at it, but he wasn't afraid of it. He only gets soft on 3rd and long because he knows he has to, we don't have the speed off the edge to make a qb pay for taking long drop backs. It appears that Ozzie has been putting an emphasis in adding some athleticism to our team in general. Because the only player with speed on our offense for a long time was Torrey Smith and only Torrey Smith... On defense we've had 0 speed for a long time. So this year will be interesting. I'm excited to see the upcoming changes.

[JoeyFlex5]

2 hours ago, CalvinSmoke said:

Good to see Pees not being attacked for once.

Pees is a really smart guy, and when he took the job he knew he didn't have athletes. He hinted at it, but he wasn't afraid of it. He only gets soft on 3rd and long because he knows he has to, we don't have the speed off the edge to make a qb pay for taking long drop backs. It appears that Ozzie has been putting an emphasis in adding some athleticism to our team in general. Because the only player with speed on our offense for a long time was Torrey Smith and only Torrey Smith... On defense we've had 0 speed for a long time. So this year will be interesting. I'm excited to see the upcoming changes.

I keep bringing it up... And I was a long time pees supporter, but his track record speaks for itself. He's blown a lot of big leads in big games and his defenses have given up late game winning drives in big games so often, and on 2 different teams with a wide range of personnel. He is a genius with the front seven, I love when he shocks everyone like the wild card against Pitt when we faced a horrendous line But instead of dialing up the pressure he used a 3 or 4 Man rush all game and then ran exotic the whole 4th quarter and destroyed ben, but then he has a tendency to be too conservative like the following week against NE when our pass rush was crushing Brady and then he toned it down for an ineffective zone scheme.

 

He just has a tendency to make the wrong adjustments in big games. He hasn't had the greatest talent but on the teams he's coached he should easily have 3 or 4 rings but he only has 1 in large part to his failing defenses

[BmoreBird22]

12 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I keep bringing it up... And I was a long time pees supporter, but his track record speaks for itself. He's blown a lot of big leads in big games and his defenses have given up late game winning drives in big games so often, and on 2 different teams with a wide range of personnel. He is a genius with the front seven, I love when he shocks everyone like the wild card against Pitt when we faced a horrendous line But instead of dialing up the pressure he used a 3 or 4 Man rush all game and then ran exotic the whole 4th quarter and destroyed ben, but then he has a tendency to be too conservative like the following week against NE when our pass rush was crushing Brady and then he toned it down for an ineffective zone scheme.

 

He just has a tendency to make the wrong adjustments in big games. He hasn't had the greatest talent but on the teams he's coached he should easily have 3 or 4 rings but he only has 1 in large part to his failing defenses

We can't criticize him for being too conservative because he's had a blitz percentage on par with the rest of the league and is slightly below average on third down. He's really not being that conservative. 

Also, two of his ballsiest calls ever have come in Super Bowls. Cable Zero, I think. Leave the corner one on one with no safety help. Called it in two Super Bowls. Worked with the Ravens, but not the Patriots.

[Purple_City39]

13 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I keep bringing it up... And I was a long time pees supporter, but his track record speaks for itself. He's blown a lot of big leads in big games and his defenses have given up late game winning drives in big games so often, and on 2 different teams with a wide range of personnel. He is a genius with the front seven, I love when he shocks everyone like the wild card against Pitt when we faced a horrendous line But instead of dialing up the pressure he used a 3 or 4 Man rush all game and then ran exotic the whole 4th quarter and destroyed ben, but then he has a tendency to be too conservative like the following week against NE when our pass rush was crushing Brady and then he toned it down for an ineffective zone scheme.

 

He just has a tendency to make the wrong adjustments in big games. He hasn't had the greatest talent but on the teams he's coached he should easily have 3 or 4 rings but he only has 1 in large part to his failing defenses

Not a Pees fan, but to be fair, some of those problem defenses you attributed to his play calling on the other thread he wasn't even the DC for.  

It's really hard for me to blame a guy for a defense when that defense is lacking true talent.  Most people loved Rex, but that 07 defense was garbage due to injury and a few players from 06 departing.  Pagano was the man in 2011 but his Colts defenses have been behind the Pees led Ravens defense in both scoring and yards every year since he's been there (minus the scoring defense of 2013).  Personnel really matters as much, if not more, than the play calling

[JoeyFlex5]

23 minutes ago, Purple_City39 said:

Not a Pees fan, but to be fair, some of those problem defenses you attributed to his play calling on the other thread he wasn't even the DC for.  

It's really hard for me to blame a guy for a defense when that defense is lacking true talent.  Most people loved Rex, but that 07 defense was garbage due to injury and a few players from 06 departing.  Pagano was the man in 2011 but his Colts defenses have been behind the Pees led Ravens defense in both scoring and yards every year since he's been there (minus the scoring defense of 2013).  Personnel really matters as much, if not more, than the play calling

He was the LB coach in 2011 and I mistakenly said he had been our dc since 2011 and I was wrong because that was paganos year, incoincidentslly our defense didn't keep us out of the super bowl that year but a dropped ball did, that was also our last year of true dominant defense, 2012 in pees first year, we took a big step back on defense and haven't recovered since, we won the SB with a goal line stand but also gave up a gigantic lead, and I maintain that with a decent armed qb we would have given up a TD there, after that stretch from AFCCG and SB our defense has been an up and down disaster, and he was DC of the pats for some of their epic meltdowns as well, notably the loss to the Colts where they blew a huge 2nd half lead. If you have the talent to shut down an offense for the first half, then it's a big responsibility of the dc to make the proper 2nd half adjustments, if the defense blows a big 2nd half lead then a lot of that blame should come on the dc.

[BmoreBird22]

3 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

He was the LB coach in 2011 and I mistakenly said he had been our dc since 2011 and I was wrong because that was paganos year, incoincidentslly our defense didn't keep us out of the super bowl that year but a dropped ball did, that was also our last year of true dominant defense, 2012 in pees first year, we took a big step back on defense and haven't recovered since

Suggs gets injured before the season even starts, Lewis gets injured in season, Suggs gets injured again, McClain got injured (right? The spinal injury?), Jimmy got injured, Ngata got injured and left in the SB, pretty sure Reed had a torn shoulder labrum, Webb went to IR in like week 5.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

On 8/2/2016 at 8:28 PM, EdTheMythicalOne said:

I think it is a bit more difficult to be versatile in a 3-4 defense which is primarily what we run now as opposed to the 4-6 under Ryan.

A 3-4 end is built more like a DT than a LB and is typically stronger and bigger. It is not very often you find that rare combination of size and speed that can move out to OLB. So then we're talking about versatility in your linebackers and that means can a guy play inside and outside. A guy that is a good MLB can be a good OLB, not not necessarily vice-versa. Edge guys in a 3-4 are usually rushers first and maybe aren't so great at coverage, which MLB's have to do quite a bit. Then you get down to safety and corner and I think we're forgetting about Webb who was a safety in college, came to the NFL to play corner and was a good one until his injuries crept up on him, and now is moving back to safety...and it wouldn't shock me to see him in perhaps dime or nickel playing some corner.

So the "chaos" in this case isn't really where you put a guy as a position, but how well you disguise where the blitz is coming from.

I was one of the people that was never happy with the Upshaw pick. I didn't see what the Ravens saw in him and never thought he would be a guy to wrack up a lot of sacks. I thought he was poor at his job. He couldn't cover, and he didn't set a good edge as people seem to think. There was a game against Cleveland that both Mike Preston and I called him out because he got completely owned and exposed in the run game. He whiffed on every chance he had to make a tackle. They ran on him once, saw what he did, and then kept on running at him. You don't draft a guy that high to just be a edge setter against the run.

Terrence Cody was a horrible pick. At his size he did 19 reps of 225. He was weak for his size for sure, tremendously out of shape, and that success on the defense had more to do with Ngata than Cody. It is kind of telling that nobody else showed any interest in Cody when he became a free agent. We Also had Jarret Johnson who was a real edge setter and Bernard Pollard to help in the box.

The "Chaos" comes from the ability to seamlessly transition from 3-4 to 4-3 to nickel to dime with one personnel package on the field. Bc our OLBs can easily put a hand down as a 4-3 DE. Urban and Kaufusi at least can move from 3-4 DE to 4-3 DE. Williams, Davis, Jernigan, Henry, Guy, Kaufusi, and Urban could all play 3-4 DT, DE and some NT or 4-3 DT. Urban and Kaufusi could also stand up and be a 3-4 OLB if say Correa is our OLB to start with a Levine or Onwuasor lined up as a MLB and he drops into coverage as an extra DB, Correa slides into the middle and Urban/Kaufusi stands up and we go with only 2 down lineman, and then to a 3-3 front but we're in nickel now.

Thats the chaos. We now have so many guys that can pass rush, cover, play the run, stand up, put their hand in the dirt. Big guys that can chew blocks, slash to penetrate or power/speed rush off the edge.

We've got DBs that can cover man, cover a shallow zone, drop and cover a deep third, come up and play the run or blitz. Webb is a great blitzer and can play nickel, outside or safety. Levine is a good blitzer and has experience at corner and safety as well.

We can show one look, get in another to fake showing our hand and try to force the offense to audible into what we want before switching into our actual defense. And we can wait to do it until right before the snap so they dont have time to change or they have to call time outs. And we now have so many versatile players - we have multiple personnel groupings that can cause this kind of confusion.

[JoeyFlex5]

Seamless transitions between sub packages is not organized chaos, that's having a diverse starting 11. If you remember the organized chaos from the rex days, well it wasn't about that... We had DTs dropping into coverage While DBs blitzed, we showed a 4man rush and cover 3 pre snap but brought the house with a 7man blitz, we would show an outside rush but drop them.back and bring the ILBs on a delayed blitz in a gap opened up by our NT stunting outside and our weak side 3tech shooting the strong side 1, we were crashing the entire weak side with a 5 man rush but one LB disguising coverage and stunting the strong side as the sole blitz, organized chaos from the rex days is rare and takes a special roster to execute, and honestly rex barely does i5 anymore himself. Rex Ryan with the ravens defenses of the mid 2000s is something we May never see again, it was true mass confusion and really ballsy play calls.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

18 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Seamless transitions between sub packages is not organized chaos, that's having a diverse starting 11. If you remember the organized chaos from the rex days, well it wasn't about that... We had DTs dropping into coverage While DBs blitzed, we showed a 4man rush and cover 3 pre snap but brought the house with a 7man blitz, we would show an outside rush but drop them.back and bring the ILBs on a delayed blitz in a gap opened up by our NT stunting outside and our weak side 3tech shooting the strong side 1, we were crashing the entire weak side with a 5 man rush but one LB disguising coverage and stunting the strong side as the sole blitz, organized chaos from the rex days is rare and takes a special roster to execute, and honestly rex barely does i5 anymore himself. Rex Ryan with the ravens defenses of the mid 2000s is something we May never see again, it was true mass confusion and really ballsy play calls.

Im not saying thats what was behind Rex Ryan's "organized chaos" which isnt even really a thing - it was just a term coined to describe it, and was used pre-Rex Ryan and was used here and other places post-Rex Ryan.

I dont even think i used the full term "organized chaos."

All im saying is that the chaos in this defense will come from that aspect - the multiplicity of personnel. We're not going to be a blitz-heavy or exotic blitz team. I even stated in previous post that we wont have our old version of organized chaos, and would be better described as being multiple.

But in a sense i can cause chaos, or look like chaos but will be very organized since its intentional and disciplined. So i guess "organized chaos" is a very apt term to describe it.

 

In fact, the Ravens defense as still being referred to as "organized chaos" in 2010, and at that time the term more referred to our hybrid 3-4 and 4-3 looks. http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2010/4/9/1412079/football-101-the-ravens-hybri

The Redskins 'organized chaos' described here - http://www.redskins.com/news-and-events/article-1/Terrance-Knighton-Redskins’-Defense-‘Organized-Chaos’/9fddf9c2-8bfc-4983-9b14-0e2c462ad96f

 

Here's Dean Pees' organized chaos described which was his package of 5 LB's standing at the line of scrimmage and 6 DB's. Yea the idea was to not let the O-line know where pressure would be coming from, but also very rooted in not showing which players would be doing what, and the ability to move in and out of fronts and coverages. http://www.espn.com/boston/nfl/columns/story?id=4788672&columnist=reiss_mike

Organized chaos is not a type of defense or any particular aspect of a defense.

Edited August 4, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK