[News] Late For Work 7/25: Best- And Worst-Case Scenarios For Five Players On PUP

[BR News]

Steelers RB Le’Veon Bell facing four-game suspension. Latest setback for former Raven Arthur Jones. Joe Flacco has same MVP odds as Marcus Mariota and Jameis Winston.

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[eze17]

It can't just be a coincidence that so many guys that played great when they were drafted by the Ravens end up falling on their faces when they sign with another team. I liked Arthur Jones, and wish him the best, but looking at what Indy gave him versus what he's done for them...man, the front office just seems to know when to let a player walk. And the list goes on and on with guys that got way overpaid by other teams. It's one of the reasons i'm never as concerned when we let someone roll in free agency: there's usually a reason why Ozzie lets them go. He knows when to extend a contract and when to cut our losses better than any other GM in the league.

[budman]

It would be interesting to know if it was the same substance that his brother Jon used and was suspended from MMA. It wouldn't be a big surprise since they do work out together.

[sami]

I sure wish who ever created this site would find a way to put back the likes and dislikes with out having to go searching for them. That was a lot of readers and contributors favorite things to see, who agreed and who didn't. For the record I'd like to give eze17 a big thumbs up for his post today.

[rmcjacket23]

It can't just be a coincidence that so many guys that played great when they were drafted by the Ravens end up falling on their faces when they sign with another team. I liked Arthur Jones, and wish him the best, but looking at what Indy gave him versus what he's done for them...man, the front office just seems to know when to let a player walk. And the list goes on and on with guys that got way overpaid by other teams. It's one of the reasons i'm never as concerned when we let someone roll in free agency: there's usually a reason why Ozzie lets them go. He knows when to extend a contract and when to cut our losses better than any other GM in the league.

I agree with the premise, but I don't think Art Jones is a great example of this.

Granted, he hasn't played that well when he has played, but Jones' post-Ravens career is pretty much just a mess of injuries.

I'm not one of these people who gives FO's credit for somehow crystal ball predicting that a player will suffer multiple long-term injuries AND get suspended for PEDs. That's just not very realistic.

I'd give the FO credit for seeing that guys like Ellerbe go elsewhere and legitimately struggle to play well, but saying "I told you so" in regards to an injured player doesn't really validate their decision in my eyes.

[whobilly]

  42 minutes ago, eze17 said:

It can't just be a coincidence that so many guys that played great when they were drafted by the Ravens end up falling on their faces when they sign with another team. I liked Arthur Jones, and wish him the best, but looking at what Indy gave him versus what he's done for them...man, the front office just seems to know when to let a player walk. And the list goes on and on with guys that got way overpaid by other teams. It's one of the reasons i'm never as concerned when we let someone roll in free agency: there's usually a reason why Ozzie lets them go. He knows when to extend a contract and when to cut our losses better than any other GM in the league.

I agree with the premise, but I don't think Art Jones is a great example of this.

Granted, he hasn't played that well when he has played, but Jones' post-Ravens career is pretty much just a mess of injuries.

I'm not one of these people who gives FO's credit for somehow crystal ball predicting that a player will suffer multiple long-term injuries AND get suspended for PEDs. That's just not very realistic.

I'd give the FO credit for seeing that guys like Ellerbe go elsewhere and legitimately struggle to play well, but saying "I told you so" in regards to an injured player doesn't really validate their decision in my eyes.

I agree with you for the most part. KO tough pill to swallow but the Raiders gave him an offer we could not match. I also believe we could have worked something out with Boldin instead of dumping him to the Niners for a 6th round pick. He had 85, 80, and 69 receptions for them. We could have used his mental toughness and a lot of those receptions.

[fusuymada]

  26 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  50 minutes ago, eze17 said:

It can't just be a coincidence that so many guys that played great when they were drafted by the Ravens end up falling on their faces when they sign with another team. I liked Arthur Jones, and wish him the best, but looking at what Indy gave him versus what he's done for them...man, the front office just seems to know when to let a player walk. And the list goes on and on with guys that got way overpaid by other teams. It's one of the reasons i'm never as concerned when we let someone roll in free agency: there's usually a reason why Ozzie lets them go. He knows when to extend a contract and when to cut our losses better than any other GM in the league.

I agree with the premise, but I don't think Art Jones is a great example of this.

Granted, he hasn't played that well when he has played, but Jones' post-Ravens career is pretty much just a mess of injuries.

I'm not one of these people who gives FO's credit for somehow crystal ball predicting that a player will suffer multiple long-term injuries AND get suspended for PEDs. That's just not very realistic.

I'd give the FO credit for seeing that guys like Ellerbe go elsewhere and legitimately struggle to play well, but saying "I told you so" in regards to an injured player doesn't really validate their decision in my eyes.

I agree with you for the most part. KO tough pill to swallow but the Raiders gave him an offer we could not match. I also believe we could have worked something out with Boldin instead of dumping him to the Niners for a 6th round pick. He had 85, 80, and 69 receptions for them. We could have used his mental toughness and a lot of those receptions.

I really think a lot of it has to do with the fact that these guys excel in this system. Not every player excels in every system but it is a credit to our scouts that were able to identify these guys as individuals who would excel in our system when we drafted them. I also believe it is a matter of the amount of money that is thrown at these guys. The expectations are tied to the dollars. I am sure we could find instances of players who did not do great in Baltimore but went to other teams and excelled except they didn't garner that much money so they fly under the radar. It is the high dollar guys who leave here the Ellerbes and Joneses and Ngatas and others that get the attention because of that money and the great expectations that go with that, that is difficult to fill for anyone.

[stixfix69]

You don't become a Playoff contending team year in and year out, unless you have discipline, accountability, and responsibility...IMO One of Harbs greatest traits as a HC, he preaches it, and won't tolerate players who aren't prepared, or put in the work.....And this is also preached for off-season expectation from our players.....It really shows in the (so-called) bust players like Elam, and AB, if you don't play to his expectations, he will bench you and put a player in who wants it more....

[harfordravenfan]

1 hour ago, sami said:

I sure wish who ever created this site would find a way to put back the likes and dislikes with out having to go searching for them. That was a lot of readers and contributors favorite things to see, who agreed and who didn't. For the record I'd like to give eze17 a big thumbs up for his post today.

Gave him one before I even seen your post Sammie 

[RavensBaltimore]

"Best case scenario: He returns to being a great player."

"Worst case scenario: He doesn't."

Thanks for that info. I feel so much more enlightened now.

[harfordravenfan]

2 minutes ago, RavensBaltimore said:

"Best case scenario: He returns to being a great player."

"Worst case scenario: He doesn't."

Thanks for that info. I feel so much more enlightened now.

Was thinking the same thing as I was reading the article lol

[steelcityraven]

"Best case scenario: He returns to being a great player."

"Worst case scenario: He doesn't."

Thanks for that info. I feel so much more enlightened now.

HA...too funny..... another week or so and the news should start to pick up!

[Bat-mite]

I sure wish who ever created this site would find a way to put back the likes and dislikes with out having to go searching for them. That was a lot of readers and contributors favorite things to see, who agreed and who didn't. For the record I'd like to give eze17 a big thumbs up for his post today.

I wanted to "like" this post, but I couldn't figure out how,,,,

[slowboater]

  2 hours ago, sami said:

I sure wish who ever created this site would find a way to put back the likes and dislikes with out having to go searching for them. That was a lot of readers and contributors favorite things to see, who agreed and who didn't. For the record I'd like to give eze17 a big thumbs up for his post today.

I wanted to "like" this post, but I couldn't figure out how,,,,

Once you sign in, click on the time of the post you want to comment/award a like/dislike. You should then see the icon you are used to seeing. As for why you have to jump through hoops? The Ravens' PC Police.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

It would be interesting to know if it was the same substance that his brother Jon used and was suspended from MMA. It wouldn't be a big surprise since they do work out together.

And if there is any smoke to that fire you have to wonder if a little arrow starts to point in the direction of their other brother Chandler Jones of the Patriots.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

  4 hours ago, eze17 said:

It can't just be a coincidence that so many guys that played great when they were drafted by the Ravens end up falling on their faces when they sign with another team. I liked Arthur Jones, and wish him the best, but looking at what Indy gave him versus what he's done for them...man, the front office just seems to know when to let a player walk. And the list goes on and on with guys that got way overpaid by other teams. It's one of the reasons i'm never as concerned when we let someone roll in free agency: there's usually a reason why Ozzie lets them go. He knows when to extend a contract and when to cut our losses better than any other GM in the league.

I agree with the premise, but I don't think Art Jones is a great example of this.

Granted, he hasn't played that well when he has played, but Jones' post-Ravens career is pretty much just a mess of injuries.

I'm not one of these people who gives FO's credit for somehow crystal ball predicting that a player will suffer multiple long-term injuries AND get suspended for PEDs. That's just not very realistic.

I'd give the FO credit for seeing that guys like Ellerbe go elsewhere and legitimately struggle to play well, but saying "I told you so" in regards to an injured player doesn't really validate their decision in my eyes.

I think first and foremost the ultimate factor is how much money said player is about to make as a free agent. The very close second is the current ability of the player and if you are certain said player will continue to offer the same level of performance or even become even better over the life of the contract. After you determine this you have to decide if you can afford it, if it is worth all the cap tap dancing to fit the contract under the salary cap, if you have any talent ready to go in house, and if not is there acceptable replacement level players on the free agent market that would come much cheaper.

Since I don't follow any other NFL team as closely as I do the Ravens I really don't know if the Ravens really are as good at roster control as we in the local area think, or if other teams are just as good at this and we just don't know about it because we don't care as much. I mean, every team is looking to do the same exact thing as the Ravens. To be consistently good in a tough division like the AFC North has to account for something. Then you look at the train wreck organizations like the Browns have been for a long period of time and you wonder how on Earth things like this happen.

At any rate, before this post goes on too much further I simply want to state that the Ravens have to be one of the best all around teams in evaluating talent and knowing when to let certain players walk. You can't keep everyone and preparing for that eventuality without missing a beat is not an easy feat.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

As I alluded to in a reply to another poster the ultimate main factor is money. You simply can't afford to pay everyone top tier contracts. The Ravens in the current era have been great at drafting replacement talent, signing some bargains, and knowing when to let players walk. I don't think the Ravens have a magic crystal ball to let them know that a certain player will implode and play horribly when they sign a big money deal with another team. It is affordability first. The latter is a coincidence for the most part. You might suspect with aging players they will start to decline.

Haloti Ngata was showing signs of slowing down and right before his last season with the Ravens he got hit with a PED violation. That means he probably knew he was slowing down too and was trying to keep playing at a high level for his next contract. The Ravens knew he wasn't the same player as he once was and they were not willing to pay him more money, plus having a beast like Williams around made it easier to swallow losing him.

Adalius Thomas was a great player for us. At age 30 his contract was up and the Ravens let him walk. His replacement was already in house as well with Jarret Johnson taking over and doing yeoman like work. Thomas had one pretty good season with New England and then declined in his next two seasons before retiring.

Ed Hartwell was a promising young buck next to Ray Lewis but he was coming at the end of his rookie contract. The Ravens knew he would get big money based on his performance, but what did they see? Declining numbers every season after his break out Sophomore season. I don't think they knew he would be bitten by an injury bug like he was, but they didn't think he was worth the financial investment.

Paul Kruger had trouble staying on the field earlier in his Ravens career and turned in one great year in his contract year...go figure. The Ravens were not really that high on him anyway and they were not going to give him anything like the Browns were prepared to offer him. He had a lackluster first season, then a great second year, followed by an absolutely horrible season last year. His replacement wasn't really on the roster but thankfully Dumervil fell into our laps thanks to an errant fax machine?

On a side note, if you are a former Raven and the Browns call you up and offer you a huge contract...say thanks but no thanks and move on to another team. The Browns are where former Ravens go to land in obscurity.

One player I think will do pretty well after moving on from his Ravens career is Pernell McPhee. We didn't have a starting spot for him and he was such a tweener in our scheme that it was hard to envision him being anything more than a rotating around the field situational rusher.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

1 hour ago, slowboater said:

Once you sign in, click on the time of the post you want to comment/award a like/dislike. You should then see the icon you are used to seeing. As for why you have to jump through hoops? The Ravens' PC Police.

Yes, I find it odd that even after I log in and reload the page the option still doesn't show up. What I do is go into my account profile and find the post I made and then open up the thread from there and THEN the like button appears. It is a rather odd format. Makes me wonder if they were intending to phase out the like and dislike options but then at the last minute decided to put it back in.

I remember when the ESPN boards changed over to try to be more visually appealing to mobile devices. The company they hired to overhaul their boards was just awful. They rolled out numerous versions of the board and none of the regulars were happy with any of the results. Every time they would listen to us and put something we all wanted in, they'd remove two or three other things that we all still wanted for no reason at all and then wonder why we were all so upset. Ultimately the new board was never finished and ESPN no longer has message boards.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

5 hours ago, eze17 said:

It can't just be a coincidence that so many guys that played great when they were drafted by the Ravens end up falling on their faces when they sign with another team. I liked Arthur Jones, and wish him the best, but looking at what Indy gave him versus what he's done for them...man, the front office just seems to know when to let a player walk. And the list goes on and on with guys that got way overpaid by other teams. It's one of the reasons i'm never as concerned when we let someone roll in free agency: there's usually a reason why Ozzie lets them go. He knows when to extend a contract and when to cut our losses better than any other GM in the league.

I think he is just overall a very good at talent evaluation, or he's got a crack team of people that are. I think a lot of it is system based. We get our coaches getting our guys in the best positions to succeed based on our scheme. They perform well, they get some hype, they become a free agent and other teams know that Ozzie finds gems so they think that the guy is just about to break out for them and pay them accordingly in free agency. You can never predict injuries unless you got a guy that is habitually missing games for you year in and out. Football is a collision sport and injuries will happen. Age can be a good indicator of declining skills. Other than that it is just a huge coincidence that most of the players the Ravens let walk never really make a lot of noise or just fade away into obscurity.

Ben Grubbs was a very good guard for us and made a Pro Bowl with the Ravens. He went on to be a good guard for the Saints and made a Pro Bowl with them before be ultimately started to decline in Kansas City thanks to a bad neck injury that forced him to retire at age 31. I am wracking my brain trying to recall a former Raven within the Harbaugh era that left this team and went on to continue to be great and I simply can't think of any.

WR Brandon Stokley is about the only name I come up with. He was a 3rd/4th option for us and in his best Ravens season he caught 24 passes for 357 yards and 2 TDs. He put up similar or better numbers at every other stop with an NFL team he played for save for a two game stint with the Giants. His career numbers for teams are also better at every stop he's had other than the Giants of course, and he only played one season in Denver. He even had a great 1,000 yard 10TD performance with the Indianapolis Colts.

[PalmBayRaven]

  7 hours ago, eze17 said:

It can't just be a coincidence that so many guys that played great when they were drafted by the Ravens end up falling on their faces when they sign with another team. I liked Arthur Jones, and wish him the best, but looking at what Indy gave him versus what he's done for them...man, the front office just seems to know when to let a player walk. And the list goes on and on with guys that got way overpaid by other teams. It's one of the reasons i'm never as concerned when we let someone roll in free agency: there's usually a reason why Ozzie lets them go. He knows when to extend a contract and when to cut our losses better than any other GM in the league.

I think he is just overall a very good at talent evaluation, or he's got a crack team of people that are. I think a lot of it is system based. We get our coaches getting our guys in the best positions to succeed based on our scheme. They perform well, they get some hype, they become a free agent and other teams know that Ozzie finds gems so they think that the guy is just about to break out for them and pay them accordingly in free agency. You can never predict injuries unless you got a guy that is habitually missing games for you year in and out. Football is a collision sport and injuries will happen. Age can be a good indicator of declining skills. Other than that it is just a huge coincidence that most of the players the Ravens let walk never really make a lot of noise or just fade away into obscurity.

Ben Grubbs was a very good guard for us and made a Pro Bowl with the Ravens. He went on to be a good guard for the Saints and made a Pro Bowl with them before be ultimately started to decline in Kansas City thanks to a bad neck injury that forced him to retire at age 31. I am wracking my brain trying to recall a former Raven within the Harbaugh era that left this team and went on to continue to be great and I simply can't think of any.

WR Brandon Stokley is about the only name I come up with. He was a 3rd/4th option for us and in his best Ravens season he caught 24 passes for 357 yards and 2 TDs. He put up similar or better numbers at every other stop with an NFL team he played for save for a two game stint with the Giants. His career numbers for teams are also better at every stop he's had other than the Giants of course, and he only played one season in Denver. He even had a great 1,000 yard 10TD performance with the Indianapolis Colts.

Priest Holmes! Hello, we let him get away and he was great for KC.

[Moderator 3]

2 hours ago, PalmBayRaven said:

Priest Holmes! Hello, we let him get away and he was great for KC.

Not exactly.  We gave him an opportunity to go start for another team as he was behind Jamal Lewis on ours.  TWO premier RBs is unnecessary.

[mearzunkies]

They do not want us commenting here IMO. They want to flood everyone to the forum.

[runcontrol]

  7 hours ago, RavensBaltimore said:

"Best case scenario: He returns to being a great player."

"Worst case scenario: He doesn't."

Thanks for that info. I feel so much more enlightened now.

HA...too funny..... another week or so and the news should start to pick up!

News should pick up this weekend. It's hard to believe, but the first open practice is next Monday, the second one is the following Saturday and the first preseason game is the Thursday after that.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

6 hours ago, PalmBayRaven said:

Priest Holmes! Hello, we let him get away and he was great for KC.

Hard to admit that I didn't recall Priest when thinking about former Ravens. He was an UDFA who did have a 1,000 yard season under his belt in 1998 before having an injury plagued 1999 season. Then they used the 5th pick in the 2000 draft to get Jamal Lewis so the writing was on the wall for Holmes. They weren't going to hitch their wagon to a guy who was coming up on a huge pay day and had injury issues. He went on to have three great seasons in KC and was well on his way to a 4th great one when he suffered another serious injury. He hung on for another two injury shortened seasons before ultimately needing to retire due to a neck surgery. In hindsight it was a pretty good move, though had Priest stayed here in Baltimore and remained the starter he probably would have put up some great numbers as well. Jamal Lewis ran out of gas after his 2,000 yard season.

Stokley was a 4th round pick in 1999.

I'm thinking Jah Reid might be another one. He never got past back up status here and the Ravens gave up on him. He went to KC and started, they loved him, and just gave him a big contract. We'll also have to see how Courtney Upshaw does with his new team.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

4 hours ago, Moderator 3 said:

Not exactly.  We gave him an opportunity to go start for another team as he was behind Jamal Lewis on ours.  TWO premier RBs is unnecessary.

Had Priest not gotten hurt in '99 and put up another 1,000+ yard season history might have been quite a bit different. They may not have used the fifth pick overall on Jamal Lewis. It wasn't that Jamal was already on the roster and established at the time, but once you take a guy that high he's going to be the starter unless he winds up being a complete bust.

[rmcjacket23]

  21 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  21 hours ago, eze17 said:

It can't just be a coincidence that so many guys that played great when they were drafted by the Ravens end up falling on their faces when they sign with another team. I liked Arthur Jones, and wish him the best, but looking at what Indy gave him versus what he's done for them...man, the front office just seems to know when to let a player walk. And the list goes on and on with guys that got way overpaid by other teams. It's one of the reasons i'm never as concerned when we let someone roll in free agency: there's usually a reason why Ozzie lets them go. He knows when to extend a contract and when to cut our losses better than any other GM in the league.

I agree with the premise, but I don't think Art Jones is a great example of this.

Granted, he hasn't played that well when he has played, but Jones' post-Ravens career is pretty much just a mess of injuries.

I'm not one of these people who gives FO's credit for somehow crystal ball predicting that a player will suffer multiple long-term injuries AND get suspended for PEDs. That's just not very realistic.

I'd give the FO credit for seeing that guys like Ellerbe go elsewhere and legitimately struggle to play well, but saying "I told you so" in regards to an injured player doesn't really validate their decision in my eyes.

I think first and foremost the ultimate factor is how much money said player is about to make as a free agent. The very close second is the current ability of the player and if you are certain said player will continue to offer the same level of performance or even become even better over the life of the contract. After you determine this you have to decide if you can afford it, if it is worth all the cap tap dancing to fit the contract under the salary cap, if you have any talent ready to go in house, and if not is there acceptable replacement level players on the free agent market that would come much cheaper.

Since I don't follow any other NFL team as closely as I do the Ravens I really don't know if the Ravens really are as good at roster control as we in the local area think, or if other teams are just as good at this and we just don't know about it because we don't care as much. I mean, every team is looking to do the same exact thing as the Ravens. To be consistently good in a tough division like the AFC North has to account for something. Then you look at the train wreck organizations like the Browns have been for a long period of time and you wonder how on Earth things like this happen.

At any rate, before this post goes on too much further I simply want to state that the Ravens have to be one of the best all around teams in evaluating talent and knowing when to let certain players walk. You can't keep everyone and preparing for that eventuality without missing a beat is not an easy feat.

That's not the point though. Everybody already knows that money plays a factor, probably the biggest factor.

I'm saying fans don't get the luxury of saying "look at how bad this guy has been" when he left, when they only real reason he's been bad is due to the unpredictability of injuries.

They happen to literally everybody. We spent 7 years thinking Joe Flacco would never get hurt... and then he did. That's what happens in the NFL.

We can claim the FO was justified in letting Ellerbe walk, because he hasn't been a good player since. We can claim that the FO was justified in letting Cary Williams walk... because he really hasn't been a good player since. Injuries aren't the problem there.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

6 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

That's not the point though. Everybody already knows that money plays a factor, probably the biggest factor.

I'm saying fans don't get the luxury of saying "look at how bad this guy has been" when he left, when they only real reason he's been bad is due to the unpredictability of injuries.

They happen to literally everybody. We spent 7 years thinking Joe Flacco would never get hurt... and then he did. That's what happens in the NFL.

We can claim the FO was justified in letting Ellerbe walk, because he hasn't been a good player since. We can claim that the FO was justified in letting Cary Williams walk... because he really hasn't been a good player since. Injuries aren't the problem there.

I think I addressed things other than the money issue. I also addressed "system guy" like Adalius Thomas. You can't predict injuries as I stated before. The only thing you can really think is that if a guy has been hurt for a good portion of a season in three out of the four seasons he's been on your team, chances are going forward he's going to be injured again and miss time. I also addressed age and declining skills like in the case of Ngata.

I think Ed Hartwell probably would have been a very good linebacker had he not gotten injured. At the time they didn't know Hartwell was going to get hurt and have a career ending injury. This was solely a money move. If they had the money to spend they might have kept him.

As far as Cary Williams is concerned, he was a classic "system guy." He never did anything of merit before he was a Raven, didn't do anything of merit until his very last season as a Raven, and based on his performance for that lone season he was going to get paid by somebody like that was his production level from this point forward. The Ravens clearly weren't going to pay him that much. They knew what they had. Overachiever who was in the right place at the right time in the right scheme. Cary is one of those special examples that was nothing much before he got here, played very well here, and then left here and returned to being nothing special.

Vinny Testaverde is another player that fits that category. He wasn't anything special before he came to Baltimore. Then boom..first season here he has the absolutely far and away best season of his entire career..over 4,000 yards passing and over 30 TDs. He has an injury shortened not so fantastic second season, but he spent YEARS in the league after his time with the Ravens and he was never that good again.

But earlier in this threat some people are trying to think about players...in the entire history of the Ravens franchise that were just as good or better than they were with the Ravens. Look at how few names there are that people can think of. Sure injuries played a part in some of those players. I think correct evaluation of talent speaks for a lot of them as well.