Most disappointing Ravens players

[EdTheMythicalOne]

11 hours ago, Danny D said:

Ed, I have no problem with civil disagreement.

Truth be told, for me, I've been in an "elevated" state too, so I give a pass those that got elevated as well. But I have an abiding conviction about where we need to go and it's contrary to what is currently the popular belief.

Regarding Waller, his situation is especially painful to me for a number of reasons.  Firstly, it's painful due to the overall state of our receiving corps, especially last year.  I thought at six five, good hands and 4.4 speed he could become the dynamic receiver we have badly needed @ a bargain draft slot. So did Newsome. However I went on record here before the draft Newsome should risk him. Furthermore, I probably would have taken him earlier than Newsome, perhaps as high as Boyle's slot and it would certainly look a large failure at this juncture.

I also don't believe you need "years" to evaluate a player, nor a chair in a Front Office to spot talent or to spot what is not adequate talent. But what is most disappointing is this young man made a promise that was critical to his career and a promise that involved the Ravens and for whatever reason he could not keep it. So in his case at least, Past Behavior was the best indicator of Future Conduct.

 

Thanks for keeping it civil. I wish others would do the same.

We think Waller's suspension was for weed based on what we can figure out. Now,  I have to really wonder about something that was always said about pot, and that is it isn't addictive and people can stop whenever they want to. I think we've seen enough evidence that this isn't the case. It either has to be that all these players getting busted are complete morons; which I doubt, or they are addicted to something they were all told is harmless. I am not here to debate that, I will let others deal with that issue.

So you feel personally let down by Waller and I can get that. He is a freak athlete that seems to have natural talent that most people would give up their left something something darkside to get. So when you see a guy like that who has measurables off the board especially given his size AND he displays good hands...and he drops WAY down in the draft....red flags. Something was up with him. He's got a drug problem, okay, he can fix that if he really wants to. He's got a motivation problem at times. That can be fixed as well with the right coaching. I don't think anyone made a mistake on his talent. I would tend to look at it this way, the Ravens saw a guy with some issues and were willing to give him a chance. He blew it. Now he will really have to make amends for it. If he doesn't get straightened out here then I predict he will bounce around for a few more years in the NFL, have issues keeping his nose clean, and teams will get sick of the unfulfilled potential. I of course hope this isn't his future. I would like to still believe in him. Hopefully this suspension serves as a wake up call and the Ravens can go to him and point to Will Hill. This is what happens to guys who can't let that stuff go.

[balfan23]

Just now, EdTheMythicalOne said:

I know I have mentioned Guy before, and I swear I am not his agent. But, the guy led the D-Line with sacks and was second in tackles to Williams.He only started 7 games. I know I can look up tackles, but another good stat to track would be tackles for loss. For a guy like Brandon Williams who kills the running game, stopping the back for negative yards is like his sack. I'll have to do some snooping to see if I can find a database for that.

Jernigan has not stepped it up, but sometimes it takes guys a couple of years. First year they aren't used to the NFL speed and longer schedule. Second year they should be physically ready and you'd hope mentally too. That seems to be where Jernigan stumbles. But, by a guy's third year in the league as a top draft pick, they should be producing.

Funny you mention it, but I looked up that stat in between posts earlier this morning ... just to see if what I feel like I witness is supported.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/player-tackles-for-loss/2015/

Kind of hard to make an assessment from it, but both Williams and Guy appear to be perhaps a little better with getting in the backfield than I thought, but it certainly doesn't see to be their strong suit. It needs to be for Timmy. I agree - can't always expect too much from guys in their first couple seasons, but that's why this 3rd year for Timmy is big IMO. 

[usmccharles]

4 hours ago, Danny D said:

We'll see about the rest of your post, however,  Ray Rice was in a backfield with Willis McGahee and LeRon McClain. Pretty sure one went over 1000 and the other was dang close. Traditionally the Raven's don't push rookies. But he looked good from the inception.

 

6 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

 What if we evaluated Ray rice in year 1? He would've been just another guy who can't stay on the field.

Rice had 727 yards on a 140 carries in 13 games (5.1 yards a touch) in his rookie year. It was clear as day that he was a playmaker and was going to be  our next starting RB.  Sure enough the next year he goes for 2,040 total yards

[EdTheMythicalOne]

9 minutes ago, balfan23 said:

Funny you mention it, but I looked up that stat in between posts earlier this morning ... just to see if what I feel like I witness is supported.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/player-tackles-for-loss/2015/

Kind of hard to make an assessment from it, but both Williams and Guy appear to be perhaps a little better with getting in the backfield than I thought, but it certainly doesn't see to be their strong suit. It needs to be for Timmy. I agree - can't always expect too much from guys in their first couple seasons, but that's why this 3rd year for Timmy is big IMO. 

Thanks for that link because there was another stat I wanted to look up and that was QB hurries. Apparently the minimum cut off is five and there are very few Ravens listed. As you'd expect Dum was our leader with 25. Jernigan was next with 9, Williams with 7 as well as Upshaw, then Mosley with 5. So yeah, the front 3 really need to pick it up and help out in the run and pass.

[JoeyFlex5]

4 hours ago, Danny D said:

We'll see about the rest of your post, however,  Ray Rice was in a backfield with Willis McGahee and LeRon McClain. Pretty sure one went over 1000 and the other was dang close. Traditionally the Raven's don't push rookies. But he looked good from the inception.

Torrey Smith was one of my key selections, so not gonna debate that one either.

I'm good at games, very good, so I will produce a game for next years draft. We'll see who drafts best here. It will be very simple and not require tuning in during the whole draft.

You don't need to produce games, you need to produce just at least a fraction of a rational thought. McClain was our lead back that year and mcgahee was 2nd behind him, Ray rice was hurt for a lot of the year with an ankle sprain and when he was activated he had a strict snap count. You still haven't come close to proving how you don't need time to judge a draft pick, and you never will, because you're 100% wrong.

Edited August 7, 2016 by JoeyFlex5

[EdTheMythicalOne]

14 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

what about michael huff, man... that dude didnt last half a season and he was supposed to be slam dunk the next man up

Huff was a let down for sure. Some guys lose it earlier than others and harder than others. Huff was done at age 30 after his time with the Raiders. When he left Baltimore for Denver, he was even less impressive there...if you can believe that.

[wizard1]

There is only one player who can be deemed as a totally wasted 1st round draft pick or otherwise. Boller, Kindle, Pierce, Oher, Elam, et.al. at least contributed something to our team even if their impact was minimal. The only ( so called ) player that has contributed nothing to this team is Breshad Perriman. Not only has he shown to be a complete bust more importantly, IMO, he will never play a meaningful down in the NFL period.

Edited August 8, 2016 by wizard1

[1/28/01]

Ray Lewis.   The fact he couldn't play 20 years is a joke!

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

18 minutes ago, 1/28/01 said:

Ray Lewis.   The fact he couldn't play 20 years is a joke!

Yeah. He sucked. Or that Ed Reed guy. He couldn't do that either. What a scrub. 

[ludy51]

20 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

Yeah. He sucked. Or that Ed Reed guy. He couldn't do that either. What a scrub. 

Or that Jonathan Ogden guy. 

Lineman need to play EVERY trench position to be even remotely draftable.

He couldn't even play center 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I don't care what you believe.. You need years to evaluate a new player. What if we evaluated Ray rice in year 1? He would've been just another guy who can't stay on the field. What about torrey Smith early on? Until game 3 he looked like he would never catch a ball. Tyron Smith was average until he was a few years in and developed, Dennis pitta was an absolute nobody for his first 2 years and ed Dickson was our guy. 

 

2 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

You don't need to produce games, you need to produce just at least a fraction of a rational thought. McClain was our lead back that year and mcgahee was 2nd behind him, Ray rice was hurt for a lot of the year with an ankle sprain and when he was activated he had a strict snap count. You still haven't come close to proving how you don't need time to judge a draft pick, and you never will, because you're 100% wrong.

"I don't care what you believe"...because one don't need years to evaluate a player.   That is obvious by a player's average term of years with any team in today's salary cap league. You gotta make up ur mined. You don't got time to be wronged. 

Speaking of "rational thought"....how did you twist in needing time to evaluate Ray Rice from the Three Headed Monster season?  (2008) You really didn't think they needed more time did you? Because they didn't think so. Ray and McGahee went out on injuries at the end of that year, but the next year Ray Rice started. (2009)McGahee was almost as effective on his lessened work load and Ron McClain, the previous year's high yards man was essentially out of a job.  How does Ray Rice's 2008 season jive with your "Need Time" position?  It don't, "because almost invariably, you are 100% wrong".

Edited August 8, 2016 by Danny D

[JoeyFlex5]

44 minutes ago, Danny D said:

 

"I don't care what you believe"...because one don't need years to evaluate a player.   That is obvious by a player's average term of years with any team in today's salary cap league. You gotta make up ur mined. You don't got time to be wronged. 

Speaking of "rational thought"....how did you twist in needing time to evaluate Ray Rice from the Three Headed Monster season?  (2008) You really didn't think they needed more time did you? Because they didn't think so. Ray and McGahee went out on injuries at the end of that year, but the next year Ray Rice started. (2009)McGahee was almost as effective on his lessened work load and Ron McClain, the previous year's high yards man was essentially out of a job.  How does Ray Rice's 2008 season jive with your "Need Time" position?  It don't, "because almost invariably, you are 100% wrong".

Did you seriously fail to comprehend how Ray rice related to the topic? Because he had nagging injuries as a rookie, nobody was calling him injury prone or thinking he was gonna be constantly fighting injuries because of his first season. Just as it relates to everyone, you need time to judge because small sample sizes are never accurate, not in science, politics, football, or anything else. 

 

I can't believe I entertained this post. I'm just gonna be done here.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

2 hours ago, Danny D said:

 

"I don't care what you believe"...because one doesn't need years to evaluate a player.   That is obvious by a player's average term of years with any team in today's salary cap league. You have to make up your mind. You don't have time to be wrong. 

Speaking of "rational thought"....how did you twist in needing the time to evaluate Ray Rice from the Three Headed Monster season(2008)?  You really didn't think they needed more time did you? Because they didn't think so. Ray and McGahee went out on injuries at the end of that year, but the next year Ray Rice started. (2009) McGahee was almost as effective on his lessened work load, and Ron McClain, the previous year's high yards man,(added comma here)was essentially out of a job.  How does Ray Rice's 2008 season jive with your "Need Time" position?  It doesn't, "because you are almost invariably, 100% wrong".

1. Fixed your grammar. That was a pain in the butt to read without even taking in what you had to said.

2. My god. Seriously? Ray Rice was injury prone his rookie year. Going off of your logic, that means that Suh should be the greatest DT in NFL history, or that Jason Babin should have been given up on entirely. Some people are late bloomers, and some are developed super early. The fact that you don't think that you need awhile for a player to develop shows your lack of comprehension of.... Well sports in general.  Look at Nelson Cruz, he did not start being an all star until 4 years into his career yet he's one of the best hitters in baseball.. At age 36. Or a more recent example from our own team not named Jimmy Smith(though he's certainly a valid choice) is Arthur Jones. Sure, he's suspended now, but people seem to forget that he was very good for us two years in a row, and earned a big contract. Yet, he did little his first few seasons in the league. Or what about Paul Kruger(yeah I know they're both gone but Ozzie did draft both of them and they are both good players.. so). Did nothing until his third year where we used him as a situational rusher. Sure, we tried changing his position but that does not change that we didn't see much from him his rookie season when he first played at OLB. 

Or how about Dennis Pitta? He became one of the league's best TEs in his third season despite doing NOTHING his rookie season. Sure, injuries came along which sucks, but still. His rookie year he had one reception. 

 

If anyone here is 100% wrong here, it's you. 

Edited August 8, 2016 by LosT_in_TranSlatioN
Fixed more grammar

[CognitiveCorvus]

6 hours ago, 1/28/01 said:

Ray Lewis.   The fact he couldn't play 20 years is a joke!

xD... he ain't got nothing on Peyton

[CognitiveCorvus]

3 hours ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

1. Fixed your grammar. That was a pain in the butt to read without even taking in what you had to said.

 

This post gets a win from me

[JoeyFlex5]

5 hours ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

1. Fixed your grammar. That was a pain in the butt to read without even taking in what you had to said.

2. My god. Seriously? Ray Rice was injury prone his rookie year. Going off of your logic, that means that Suh should be the greatest DT in NFL history, or that Jason Babin should have been given up on entirely. Some people are late bloomers, and some are developed super early. The fact that you don't think that you need awhile for a player to develop shows your lack of comprehension of.... Well sports in general.  Look at Nelson Cruz, he did not start being an all star until 4 years into his career yet he's one of the best hitters in baseball.. At age 36. Or a more recent example from our own team not named Jimmy Smith(though he's certainly a valid choice) is Arthur Jones. Sure, he's suspended now, but people seem to forget that he was very good for us two years in a row, and earned a big contract. Yet, he did little his first few seasons in the league. Or what about Paul Kruger(yeah I know they're both gone but Ozzie did draft both of them and they are both good players.. so). Did nothing until his third year where we used him as a situational rusher. Sure, we tried changing his position but that does not change that we didn't see much from him his rookie season when he first played at OLB. 

Or how about Dennis Pitta? He became one of the league's best TEs in his third season despite doing NOTHING his rookie season. Sure, injuries came along which sucks, but still. His rookie year he had one reception. 

 

If anyone here is 100% wrong here, it's you. 

Brandon Graham is hot garbage. 

Tyron Smith is average.

Demaryius Thomas is average.

Brett Favre isn't a hall of famer.

Julian Edelman is a qb turned cb. 

Kordell Stewart was only a wr. 

Jordy Nelson is average.

Lucky for the Steelers gm they drafted antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders late, because that's where they belonged with their mediocrity.

 

Smh. The more examples you list, the more ridiculous it sounds.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

 

 

I can't believe I entertained this post. I'm just gonna be done here.

I can't either, but all things considered not a bad choice.

I was going to type another line, but the coffee is ready............runs off like Ray Rice did in 2008...

mmmmmmmm

I could put the kibosh on the reast of it but I don't got the time.  Of course evaluating in short time is not really about Ray Rice, a man they both righted and wronged about...this is about the Baltimore Raven's and Newsome and yes, four weeks is all we will need in regard to Stanley. In fact, we won't even need that long. Heavy posting is coming home game vs Buffalo!

Relatedly, maybe Z Smith had been abusing Stanley not so m uch as to Stanley's weakness, but perhaps due to Z.Smith has come along too.

But I posted about Darren Waller when I got uncivilly grilled.  What do you think about him?  Do we keep him or do we release him? Because Darren Waller is a player that more accurately fills your bill. He is the "project player" you deliberate about. Not the first rounder that is supposed to be "instant coffee".

 

 

 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

*wakes up at four am to try and adjust to new time zone*

 

*sees this crap*

 

*goes back to sleep*..

 

As for Darren Waller- He went in the later rounds for a reason. Hard to be considered a disspaointment when you go that late. Athletic freak, good hands, bad blocker, sloppy route runner. The fact that you have referenced him in the past to be the WR with the most upside(despite the fact that Perriman is a better athlete) and criticize Ozzie for potentially releasing him is hilarious to me. I loved Tommy Streeter but didn't bat an eye when we released him. He was a poor route runner. I'm not too mad. Just shows you're reaching. 

 

But if you do have the said power of premonition could you tell me the lottery numbers in Colorado? That'd be great. 

 

Yet again you have cited 0 evidence of anything. Players are allowed to improve from their rookie seasons you know.. It's called development, and it's actually quite common. 

[Halshayeji]

On July 20, 2016 at 10:33 PM, 52liveforever said:

"Mount Cody" he was supposed to be this absolutel black hole in the middle of our defense and ended up being a huge bust. 

 

Sergio Kindle. He was an absolute monster. Who knows what could've been.

I was just thinking to myself how everyone just forgot about Cody. Damn! That guy was such a heartbreak of a talent. Year in and year out we kept a roster spot and hope that "Whimpy" would just stop downing burgers and start ballin.

and to whoever made a comment earlier that these boards always end with a bashing of Boller. Well it's for good reason lol. I swear there were times where I preferred a run and punt on third and long over watching Boller drop back with his weird throwing mechanics and soft butter fingers. 

 

[EdTheMythicalOne]

10 hours ago, Halshayeji said:

I was just thinking to myself how everyone just forgot about Cody. Damn! That guy was such a heartbreak of a talent. Year in and year out we kept a roster spot and hope that "Whimpy" would just stop downing burgers and start ballin.

and to whoever made a comment earlier that these boards always end with a bashing of Boller. Well it's for good reason lol. I swear there were times where I preferred a run and punt on third and long over watching Boller drop back with his weird throwing mechanics and soft butter fingers. 

 

I made a "Did you know" post about Boller in that thread. Something to do with dropping back from center. I didn't forget either Cody we had, Dan or Mount. I didn't know what the Ravens saw that we couldn't. Dude was a tub of blubber with no strength. 19 reps of 225. There are WR's that do more than that. I guess they thought he might have been the next Tony Siragusa and maybe thought if he fell on a QB he might separate their shoulder too.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

20 hours ago, wizard1 said:

There is only one player who can be deemed as a totally wasted 1st round draft pick or otherwise. Boller, Kindle, Pierce, Oher, Elam, et.al. at least contributed something to our team even if their impact was minimal. The only ( so called ) player that has contributed nothing to this team is Breshad Perriman. Not only has he shown to be a complete bust more importantly, IMO, he will never play a meaningful down in the NFL period.

Wait, Kindle did something to contribute to this team? I must've missed that.

[K-Dog]

2 hours ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Wait, Kindle did something to contribute to this team? I must've missed that.

At some point in time, he did take one or two snaps, but I don't recall it amounting to anything.
It even may have been pre season.

[Guest]

On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 6:16 AM, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

 

As for Darren Waller- He went in the later rounds for a reason. Hard to be considered a disspaointment when you go that late. Athletic freak, good hands, bad blocker, sloppy route runner. The fact that you have referenced him in the past to be the WR with the most upside(despite the fact that Perriman is a better athlete) and criticize Ozzie for potentially releasing him is hilarious to me. I loved Tommy Streeter but didn't bat an eye when we released him. He was a poor route runner. I'm not too mad. Just shows you're reaching. 

I don't know what to do with Waller, but the problem is Newsome's, not mine. Newsome can't draft receivers and he's the one that drafted Waller. In the Waller matter I'm certain of one thing, whatever Newsome does with him will be a disaster. If Newsome cuts him he will undoubtedly turn into the next Antonio Gates but if Newsome holds onto him he'll be a no playing time stoney, because Newsome is the perfect reverse barometer.

I have noticed other sources are picking up on Newsome's woes........finally.  Russell Street Report has a semi critical article about his failure to acquire playmakers. However, they also said they like the way Waller is practicing.  But on both accounts what do they know! Truth be told, I don't pay a lick of attention to what they or PFF say.

I'll tell you what Waller needs though. He needs what our entire team needs.....an attitude.  Someone else here is commenting upon it in another thread.  We used to have players with an attitude. If he would just put the joints down and pick the ball outta the air with a snear and a spin in front of the defender he'd be on his way. He needs to get mean to prove the pot hasn't made him mellow. Theres some posters here he could learn a thing or two from in regard to attitude.

Anyway, he's not Tommy Streeter and with a stash on the practice squad he'll be poached quicker than an elephant straying into an armed African village. Truth be told again, I know what I would do, but it's not my problem. So hero or goat, whatever Newsome does will make for an interesting story.

Garry Owen

 

Edited August 9, 2016 by Danny D

[Guest]

On August 7, 2016 at 9:46 PM, wizard1 said:

There is only one player who can be deemed as a totally wasted 1st round draft pick or otherwise. Boller, Kindle, Pierce, Oher, Elam, et.al. at least contributed something to our team even if their impact was minimal. The only ( so called ) player that has contributed nothing to this team is Breshad Perriman. Not only has he shown to be a complete bust more importantly, IMO, he will never play a meaningful down in the NFL period.

Harbaugh is hinting he'll be back soon. My evaluation of this year does not include contribution by Perriman.