Ray Lewis

[Tavron]

Why did it take Ray Lewis for the team to win that super bowl. Why it couldn't just come from the mind set to know that you should win any game without someone else putting you in the mood in moments. 

[Tiznut]

What?

[Moderator 3]

6 minutes ago, Tiznut said:

What?

New sports fan?

[usmccharles]

Ray Lewis is considered one of if not the greatest leader in sports.  But we will never know how well the team would of played without him

[K-Dog]

Evidence speaks for itself.
The RAVENS have never won a Super Bowl without him.

There ya have it.

[JoeyFlex5]

2 hours ago, K-Dog said:

Evidence speaks for itself.
The RAVENS have never won a Super Bowl without him.

There ya have it.

The patriots have never won a super bowl with me on the field, Coincidence? I think not. You're welcome NFL fans.

[flynismo]

What?

[redrum52]

7 hours ago, K-Dog said:

Evidence speaks for itself.
The RAVENS have never won a Super Bowl without him.

There ya have it.

Poe never gets any credit...

[redrum52]

9 hours ago, Tavron said:

Why did it take Ray Lewis for the team to win that super bowl. Why it couldn't just come from the mind set to know that you should win any game without someone else putting you in the mood in moments. 

Is this your very first post?

[K-Dog]

2 hours ago, redrum52 said:

Poe never gets any credit...

D'oh.

Great point.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Well, in fairness we had 16 years with Ray Lewis to get those 2 SB's, and it took until the 4th season with Ray to win the 1st one.

We haven't even played our 4th season without Ray Lewis... so it's not even a fair comparison yet. 

Not that this question really even justifies a response. There's no way to know that we wouldnt have won without Ray Lewis coming back. We had the eventual SB champs down 14 pts twice in '14 with a PS worthy secondary. Theres a chance we win a SB that year if not for some rulebook loop holing, poor officiating, and a trick play we defended poorly.

 

Is football news really this slow?

[Ravenseconbeast]

Ray Lewis was a team leader.   One of the best one in our generation.   He helped spark a light into the team.   Football can be a mental game.  

But there were a lot of factors in place to win the Superbowl.   Don't forget it takes the full roster to win championship...and we needed every single player that year to contribute in a big way.   

[Steve0x]

Why don't Ozzie hire him as Linebackers coach next season if Ravens defense doesn't improve this season. See if he motivates the players

[Tiznut]

22 minutes ago, Steve0x said:

Why don't Ozzie hire him as Linebackers coach next season if Ravens defense doesn't improve this season. See if he motivates the players

It would require Ray wanting to be a coach and not just a motivational speaker amongst other things 

[K-Dog]

6 hours ago, Steve0x said:

Why don't Ozzie hire him as Linebackers coach next season if Ravens defense doesn't improve this season. See if he motivates the players

Ray doesn't want to.
He said so himself.

[The Raven]

6 hours ago, Steve0x said:

Why don't Ozzie hire him as Linebackers coach next season if Ravens defense doesn't improve this season. See if he motivates the players

1. Ray doesn't want to.

2. I don't give a crap about that fake motivation. He did a great job motivating this team to a 5-11 season before. Ray was an excellent player, and yes, he is a good speaker, but let's not create this mythic tale of Ray's words inspiring people to run through walls. If you can't motivate yourself to do your job, who the hell can? This whole idea of motivational speakers in sports is just stupid. 

[Inqui]

7 hours ago, Steve0x said:

Why don't Ozzie hire him as Linebackers coach next season if Ravens defense doesn't improve this season. See if he motivates the players

Great players don't always make great coaches.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

2 hours ago, Inqui said:

Great players don't always make great coaches.

Yeah. Even if the player has an insanely high football iq such as Ray. Don't see it sadly. 

 

He'll make bank as a motivational speaker though 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

3 hours ago, The Raven said:

1. Ray doesn't want to.

2. I don't give a crap about that fake motivation. He did a great job motivating this team to a 5-11 season before. Ray was an excellent player, and yes, he is a good speaker, but let's not create this mythic tale of Ray's words inspiring people to run through walls. If you can't motivate yourself to do your job, who the hell can? This whole idea of motivational speakers in sports is just stupid. 

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the second point but I can't help but say this. I feel as if we don't have a true leader on defense. I don't care if he's vocal. Suggs isn't much of a leader. He's a great player and a good veteran, but leader he is not.

 

CJ is many things... I don't know if he's a leader though. Look at Patrick Willis, very quiet as a player but he lead on the field. Ray may have been vocal but that's not why I think of him as a great leader/motivator. 

[PerpetuallyBored74]

17 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the second point but I can't help but say this. I feel as if we don't have a true leader on defense. I don't care if he's vocal. Suggs isn't much of a leader. He's a great player and a good veteran, but leader he is not.

 

CJ is many things... I don't know if he's a leader though. Look at Patrick Willis, very quiet as a player but he lead on the field. Ray may have been vocal but that's not why I think of him as a great leader/motivator. 

Weddle is the new leader, at least until Mosely and/or someone else grows into the role.

That's what happens when you draft as poorly as we have on defense for nearly a decade, up until 2014 (who's draft class looks promising Same with 2015).

2013 - Elam, A. Brown & J. Simon all busts. KLM and M. Anthony were late round flyers who didn't pan out either. Only B. Williams has been a bona fide hit.

2012 - Upshaw was JAG and is now gone. C. Thompson and Asa Jackson, both had off-field issues that hampered their development. Only D. Tyson, a backup DE, is still on the team.

2011 - J. Smith is a stud who can't stay healthy. McPhee wasn't used much until towards the end of his time here ala Kruger, now he's gone. Chykie like Asa was a project they invested too much time in, that was time wasted.

2010 - Kindle and T. Cody, ugghhh... the less said, the better. Only A. Jones developed into a decent player, but he's gone too.

2009 - Wasted Kruger on a foolish attempt to have him bulk up and play DE instead of OLB. When he slimmed down and went back to OLB, he was very good--but only for his last season before leaving as a FA. Webb was a top 3 CB briefly before injuries derailed him. Now he's trying to salvage his career switching to FS. J. Phillips, does anyone even remember him?

2008 - T. Gooden never panned out. Zbikowski and Nakamura were solid backup DBs and ST aces, but nothing more.

2007 - Barnes & Burgess did very little here as backups.

2006 - Ngata was at one time the best DT in the league and top 2 or 3 for many years. D. Landry was a thumper at SS who complemented Ed Reed's ballhawkery. But Pittman did nothing.(literally) while D. Martin carved out a nice career as a ST'er and backup CB.

2005 - The other Cody, the one who could never be healthy plus Mike Smith. Yeah...

2004 - D. Edwards, much like Kruger and McPhee wasn't used much until his final year or 2, then cashed in as a FA elsewhere. We also drafted R. Green for some reason.

2003 - Suggs and JJ. We also drafted A. Franklin who did more once he left as a FA. G. Sapp was an OK backup DB and STer. In the 7th we drafted a guy who never even made it out of camp. Still, who cares when you get Suggs and JJ (best edge setter in the league) in one draft.

2002 - Ed Reed. Also Weaver was a solid starter at DE and C. Williams was a decent backup and STer. Brightful was drafted to return kicks, not play defense.

The 2002, 2003 and 2006 drafts where when we drafted the cornerstones of our defense to join with Ray as part of that nucleus.

After that though, it's been guys who were great but were misused/underused or who couldn't stay healthy. Along with a lot of busts, with more recently many of those busts coming in the first 2 rounds.

So for the most part, we've been drafting defense like we draft WR.

[JoeyFlex5]

11 hours ago, Steve0x said:

Why don't Ozzie hire him as Linebackers coach next season if Ravens defense doesn't improve this season. See if he motivates the players

because it simply doesnt work like that.. 

 

he would need to WANT to coach, he would need to want to coach in baltimore, the organization would have to want it as well, and even some of the greatest players/football minds dont make good coaches. 

 

this is a notion that i see every season with some former ravens player and it never makes sense.

[JoeyFlex5]

4 hours ago, PerpetuallyBored74 said:

Weddle is the new leader, at least until Mosely and/or someone else grows into the role.

That's what happens when you draft as poorly as we have on defense for nearly a decade, up until 2014 (who's draft class looks promising Same with 2015).

2013 - Elam, A. Brown & J. Simon all busts. KLM and M. Anthony were late round flyers who didn't pan out either. Only B. Williams has been a bona fide hit.

2012 - Upshaw was JAG and is now gone. C. Thompson and Asa Jackson, both had off-field issues that hampered their development. Only D. Tyson, a backup DE, is still on the team.

2011 - J. Smith is a stud who can't stay healthy. McPhee wasn't used much until towards the end of his time here ala Kruger, now he's gone. Chykie like Asa was a project they invested too much time in, that was time wasted.

2010 - Kindle and T. Cody, ugghhh... the less said, the better. Only A. Jones developed into a decent player, but he's gone too.

2009 - Wasted Kruger on a foolish attempt to have him bulk up and play DE instead of OLB. When he slimmed down and went back to OLB, he was very good--but only for his last season before leaving as a FA. Webb was a top 3 CB briefly before injuries derailed him. Now he's trying to salvage his career switching to FS. J. Phillips, does anyone even remember him?

2008 - T. Gooden never panned out. Zbikowski and Nakamura were solid backup DBs and ST aces, but nothing more.

2007 - Barnes & Burgess did very little here as backups.

2006 - Ngata was at one time the best DT in the league and top 2 or 3 for many years. D. Landry was a thumper at SS who complemented Ed Reed's ballhawkery. But Pittman did nothing.(literally) while D. Martin carved out a nice career as a ST'er and backup CB.

2005 - The other Cody, the one who could never be healthy plus Mike Smith. Yeah...

2004 - D. Edwards, much like Kruger and McPhee wasn't used much until his final year or 2, then cashed in as a FA elsewhere. We also drafted R. Green for some reason.

2003 - Suggs and JJ. We also drafted A. Franklin who did more once he left as a FA. G. Sapp was an OK backup DB and STer. In the 7th we drafted a guy who never even made it out of camp. Still, who cares when you get Suggs and JJ (best edge setter in the league) in one draft.

2002 - Ed Reed. Also Weaver was a solid starter at DE and C. Williams was a decent backup and STer. Brightful was drafted to return kicks, not play defense.

The 2002, 2003 and 2006 drafts where when we drafted the cornerstones of our defense to join with Ray as part of that nucleus.

After that though, it's been guys who were great but were misused/underused or who couldn't stay healthy. Along with a lot of busts, with more recently many of those busts coming in the first 2 rounds.

So for the most part, we've been drafting defense like we draft WR.

2013: no arguing with elam and art brown, but after the 3rd round its a crap shoot, you cant call a 4th-7th rounder a bust because the expectations were never that high to begin with for most of them. 

2012: upshaw was a very solid player for us who did a lot more than the casual fan notices. i wouldve hated to see our defense try to transition away from JJ without him. tyson has been gone.

2011: jimmy smith had a clean bill of health coming out and had nagging injuries as a rookie and 1 major injury since then which came in 2014, he has been a bonafide stud for us and was arguably and quietly the best cb in the league from the playoffs in 2013 all the way up until his injury in 2014, and he did it against a RIDICULOUS lineup of wrs. we got a damn good rookie year and a GREAT year 4 from a 5th rounder in mcphee, youre once again expecting wayyyy too much from a late round pick like chykie brown, he was solid depth and failed as a starter, it is a very regular occurence.

2010: no argument here 

2009: kruger was raw, and we had hoped we could find a spot in our system for him, he was purely a 43 guy and we needed to convert him, and he did eventually, and when he did he became instrumental in our super bowl, forcing fumbles and getting key sacks, and youre complaining about the pick because the browns threw him way too much money? 

2008: gooden did nothing, true, but zibby and nakamura were some of the best secondary depth/ST ace's in the entire league and were late picks, once again we nailed late picks value-wise and they contributed for years, yet people complain because we arent finding 4th round pro bowlers, smh. 

2007: barnes was a beast as a situational edge rusher, what are you talking about? 

2006: are you seriously gonna nitpick this draft because of david pittman? 

2005: no arguments. 

2004: no arguments, although i think dwan edwards is a very underrated former raven, he was always around the ball and quietly and consistently produced. 

 

its not that we have been drafting poorly on defense for over a decade, its that fans seem to have ridiculously unrealistic expectations. 4th and 5th round db's playing their entire rookie contracts as KEY nickel and dime players, but youre unstatisfied because they werent world beaters? how can you have a single complain about mcphee as a 5th round pick besides the fact that we couldnt retain him? this isnt poor drafting, this is pretty damn solid drafting overall with 2010 and 2013's blown high picks still haunting us.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

4 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

2013: no arguing with elam and art brown, but after the 3rd round its a crap shoot, you cant call a 4th-7th rounder a bust because the expectations were never that high to begin with for most of them. 

2012: upshaw was a very solid player for us who did a lot more than the casual fan notices. i wouldve hated to see our defense try to transition away from JJ without him. tyson has been gone.

2011: jimmy smith had a clean bill of health coming out and had nagging injuries as a rookie and 1 major injury since then which came in 2014, he has been a bonafide stud for us and was arguably and quietly the best cb in the league from the playoffs in 2013 all the way up until his injury in 2014, and he did it against a RIDICULOUS lineup of wrs. we got a damn good rookie year and a GREAT year 4 from a 5th rounder in mcphee, youre once again expecting wayyyy too much from a late round pick like chykie brown, he was solid depth and failed as a starter, it is a very regular occurence.

2010: no argument here 

2009: kruger was raw, and we had hoped we could find a spot in our system for him, he was purely a 43 guy and we needed to convert him, and he did eventually, and when he did he became instrumental in our super bowl, forcing fumbles and getting key sacks, and youre complaining about the pick because the browns threw him way too much money? 

2008: gooden did nothing, true, but zibby and nakamura were some of the best secondary depth/ST ace's in the entire league and were late picks, once again we nailed late picks value-wise and they contributed for years, yet people complain because we arent finding 4th round pro bowlers, smh. 

2007: barnes was a beast as a situational edge rusher, what are you talking about? 

2006: are you seriously gonna nitpick this draft because of david pittman? 

2005: no arguments. 

2004: no arguments, although i think dwan edwards is a very underrated former raven, he was always around the ball and quietly and consistently produced. 

 

its not that we have been drafting poorly on defense for over a decade, its that fans seem to have ridiculously unrealistic expectations. 4th and 5th round db's playing their entire rookie contracts as KEY nickel and dime players, but youre unstatisfied because they werent world beaters? how can you have a single complain about mcphee as a 5th round pick besides the fact that we couldnt retain him? this isnt poor drafting, this is pretty damn solid drafting overall with 2010 and 2013's blown high picks still haunting us.

2013: I never said KLM and Anthony were busts, I said they were "late round flyers who did not pan out"

2012: If Upshaw was solid, they would've re-signed him as he was cheap to keep. He was decent at setting the edge, not great at it. And was below average at everything else: pass rushing, tackles for losses, coverage, etc. He is JAG, an OK starter, but nothing really special. Basically replacement level.

2011: So...you agree with me on Jimmy and Pernell? Since you pretty much elaborated on what I said about them. My point with Pernell being that after showing such promise as a rookie, he was underused until his 4th and final year here. You can't expect to build a decent defense when you only get one good and one great year from one of the scant few good healthy players you draft on defense before that good player leaves. And I didn't say I expected Chykie to ever be anything other than a nickel or dime CB, at best. What I said was he was a "project they invested too much time in" meaning that once it became clear he'd reached his ceiling after showing no improvement after 2 seasons, it was time to move on and try to develop someone else. Instead, they kept him for another two years.

2009: So how come when he shed the weight and switched back to OLB, Kruger became productive? You wouldn't want that productivity for 3 or 4 years, you're willing to settle for one year because it happened to be the year we won the SB? And what if Kruger had been just as productive in 2011 or 2010, maybe...we would've won another SB or two? And where did I say anything about overpaying him like the Browns did.

2008: I acknowledged that Zibby and Haruki were excellent backup and ST guys. And yes, it would be nice if we did nab a Pro Bowler in the 4h or 5th round every once in awhile. That's not an unrealistic expectation. In fact, the better teams in the NFL do just that (and we actually have with guys like Arthur Jones and McPhee, so I don't even know why you're raising this point.)

2007: Yeah, he was. For San Diego who we traded Barnes to for a 7th round pick. He was only a Raven for 3 years where we got 5 sacks from him. With San Diego, he had 11 sacks in just one year. You really want to argue that we got the better end of that deal?

2006: So, we're just going to ignore what I said about Ngata, Landry and Martin. Likewise, we're going to dismiss what I said later about the 2006 draft being one of our defensive cornerstone drafts.

My overall point is that many of these have been good players, even a few great ones, but either they kept (or keep) getting hurt or we misuse or underuse them until they've got one foot out the door. And that's why when Ray, Ed & Haloti were gone and Suggs started showing his age, our defense fell back into mediocrity. Hopefully, though these last 2 drafts will begin to turn that back around.

[JoeyFlex5]

4 hours ago, PerpetuallyBored74 said:

2013: I never said KLM and Anthony were busts, I said they were "late round flyers who did not pan out"

2012: If Upshaw was solid, they would've re-signed him as he was cheap to keep. He was decent at setting the edge, not great at it. And was below average at everything else: pass rushing, tackles for losses, coverage, etc. He is JAG, an OK starter, but nothing really special. Basically replacement level.

2011: So...you agree with me on Jimmy and Pernell? Since you pretty much elaborated on what I said about them. My point with Pernell being that after showing such promise as a rookie, he was underused until his 4th and final year here. You can't expect to build a decent defense when you only get one good and one great year from one of the scant few good healthy players you draft on defense before that good player leaves. And I didn't say I expected Chykie to ever be anything other than a nickel or dime CB, at best. What I said was he was a "project they invested too much time in" meaning that once it became clear he'd reached his ceiling after showing no improvement after 2 seasons, it was time to move on and try to develop someone else. Instead, they kept him for another two years.

2009: So how come when he shed the weight and switched back to OLB, Kruger became productive? You wouldn't want that productivity for 3 or 4 years, you're willing to settle for one year because it happened to be the year we won the SB? And what if Kruger had been just as productive in 2011 or 2010, maybe...we would've won another SB or two? And where did I say anything about overpaying him like the Browns did.

2008: I acknowledged that Zibby and Haruki were excellent backup and ST guys. And yes, it would be nice if we did nab a Pro Bowler in the 4h or 5th round every once in awhile. That's not an unrealistic expectation. In fact, the better teams in the NFL do just that (and we actually have with guys like Arthur Jones and McPhee, so I don't even know why you're raising this point.)

2007: Yeah, he was. For San Diego who we traded Barnes to for a 7th round pick. He was only a Raven for 3 years where we got 5 sacks from him. With San Diego, he had 11 sacks in just one year. You really want to argue that we got the better end of that deal?

2006: So, we're just going to ignore what I said about Ngata, Landry and Martin. Likewise, we're going to dismiss what I said later about the 2006 draft being one of our defensive cornerstone drafts.

My overall point is that many of these have been good players, even a few great ones, but either they kept (or keep) getting hurt or we misuse or underuse them until they've got one foot out the door. And that's why when Ray, Ed & Haloti were gone and Suggs started showing his age, our defense fell back into mediocrity. Hopefully, though these last 2 drafts will begin to turn that back around.

You made all of these points into negatives and said that is why we drafted poorly on defense for over a decade... So when I properly elaborate it and explain why it's not bad drafting its just unrealistic expectations, you suddenly change your tone and agree? Makes sense. 

 

And Kruger didn't just start playing well because he shed weight, he was in year 4 so the game finally began to slow down for him. Are you saying that he came in as a 34OLB and we just screwed him into playing end? Because that's not true, he started as an edge rusher but looked average there and we needed a rushing presence at DE since Cory Redding left the following year, hence our asking of Kruger to slide inside, it didn't work, we swallowed our pride, and let him take his 3 year veteran status and slim down and edge rush once more.. And for upshaw, come on, don't be one of those guys who can't see the positives to a player just because they don't do the sexy things, Upshaw never lived up to his billing because a 2nd round OLB should be getting sacks, but that didn't make Upshaw JAG, he was far from average setting the edge, he played OLB, DE, DT, ILB, called plays and formations, jammed TEs very well, he had a great feel for shallow zone drops, and actually had a tendency to flush qbs out of the pocket but not having the speed to make the sack. He, along with every single player in our defense, had an ugly 2015, but he has been damn good for us every other year, lack of sacks doesn't negate that. And just because we didn't get the better end of the deal with Barnes doesn't mean he was a bad pick or bad player, he wasn't on the 2015 ravens who desperately need pass rush, he was on the rex Ryan and Greg mattison defenses when we had a loaded roster and didn't have room for rotational edge rushers. Narrow minded view. 

Edited July 16, 2016 by JoeyFlex5

[Willbacker]

12 hours ago, The Raven said:

1. Ray doesn't want to.

2. I don't give a crap about that fake motivation. He did a great job motivating this team to a 5-11 season before. Ray was an excellent player, and yes, he is a good speaker, but let's not create this mythic tale of Ray's words inspiring people to run through walls. If you can't motivate yourself to do your job, who the hell can? This whole idea of motivational speakers in sports is just stupid. 

Wrong!!! A lot of players were inspired by not only Ray's speeches but his play on the field. He was an absolute general. I cant believe just cuz of a 5-11 season one time after the SB with you can say that. Guys like Gen Washington and MLK weren't motivational either I guess. Yeah. No! Great leaders are great motivaters.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Willbacker

[Steve0x]

14 hours ago, Inqui said:

Great players don't always make great coaches.

Really? There were some ex steeler players on the steeler coaching staff and they did well under Mike Tomlin

[Tiznut]

21 minutes ago, Steve0x said:

Really? There were some ex steeler players on the steeler coaching staff and they did well under Mike Tomlin

How the hell does that negate his post?

he said don't always and you said some succeeded. 

 

Rod Woodson never really caught on and Joe Greene didn't move up the ranks. Oh and mike singletary hasn't done anything extraordinary as a position coach which is why he's never stayed long anywhere he's coached 

Edited July 16, 2016 by Tiznut

[ravensdan]

11 hours ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

Yeah. Even if the player has an insanely high football iq such as Ray. Don't see it sadly. 

 

He'll make bank as a motivational speaker though 

Yeah. Also sometimes the better and more instinctual the player the more frustrated they can get trying to coach up others.... Mike Singletary. 

[BmoreBird22]

3 minutes ago, ravensdan said:

Yeah. Also sometimes the better and more instinctual the player the more frustrated they can get trying to coach up others.... Mike Singletary. 

I don't think people realize that these players just saw the game so much faster and just knew what the opponent wanted to do. 

Not everyone is a Lewis or a Kuechly and so if you have someone like that, it can be really frustrating when they just don't understand what you think they should. 

[Steve0x]

Rex Ryan did a great job with the Ravens though