[News] Late For Work 7/12: Pay Brandon Williams Now Or Later? Justin Tucker Negotiations Heating Up

[BR News]

An argument for and against paying Williams now. Optimism abounds for a Tucker deal. Ravens quarterback ‘situation’ ranked No. 25?!? NFL teams catch Pokemon fever.

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[RavenROC]

Pay him now. Didn't you learn your lesson with KO? Players want long term deals, and he hasn't shown any indication he's the type of player who needs to be incentivized. Lock him up.

[Ravensfansince03]

I'd definitely wait till Brandon's contract is up. Everybody is nuts for the guy but I've yet to see him consistently be a dominant force as our DT. There were numerous plays were I saw him get stood up at the line. Maybe I'm holding him at to high of a standard after Ngata left.

[bioLarzen]

"Often times, General Manager Ozzie Newsome likes to get ahead of contract negotiations a year before a key young player’s deal expires."

This sounds very nice - unfortunately it isn't a 100 percent true, especially the "often times" part. Yep, Jimmy Smith is a good example - but how many other such young key player extensions could you name by heart, say form the past 5 seasons? And how many start players could we all name whose contract weren't (or couldn't be) extended in time to prevent them hitting free agency - and sail away in the first waves of it?

 

You see, Ozzie's (wise) lack of willingness to overpay any player - even the likes of KO - prohibits most of these kinds of extensions, for the simple reason that the agents of these successful players know damn well that the free agency will almost surely yield (financially) better offers. Why willingly throw them away by signing to an extention? And I'm quite sure this will be the case with Brandon Williams, too. The offer which would be good enough to convince him to skip free agency would by default be better than what they expect free agency to yield - overpay that is. And that's something Ozzie won't do. Ergo, unless Brandon Williams gives a hometown discount - and why would he - he's gonna hit free agncy, and will likely get overpaid somewhere like Jacksonville, Buffalo or Tampa Bay. And he'll be replaced by Jernigan, Carl Davis or someone else.

Edited July 12, 2016 by bioLarzen

[Ravensfansince03]

Pay him now. Didn't you learn your lesson with KO? Players want long term deals, and he hasn't shown any indication he's the type of player who needs to be incentivized. Lock him up.

No sir, Osemele was a MUCH MORE VALUABLE PLAYER than Williams. A coach said last night that the key to a dominant O-line is having a group of guys on the line that have played with each other for years, and trust each other. With Osemele gone, and Monroe out, I wouldn't be surprised if our O-line has taken a step backward, even with Stanley.

Osemele was key to our offense success. He literally drove defenders to the ground. And made sure they knew not to mess with him again.

[b93333]

I'm in the pay him now camp. Losing KO is the perfect example of not doing so. Ngata, on the other hand, never was the same after getting a long term contract (this has been the case with many NFL players)... Williams seems more likely to continue playing hard after getting long term security. As for Joe... I sure hope he proves PFF wrong.

Edited July 14, 2016 by b93333
better wording

[bioLarzen]

Pay him now. Didn't you learn your lesson with KO? Players want long term deals, and he hasn't shown any indication he's the type of player who needs to be incentivized. Lock him up.

As long as there is another GM who's willing to overpay his market value, he's hardly going to be retained.

[stixfix69]

Pay him now, NT is the key to any 3-4 defense, and he his a space eater.....

[TheConquerorWorm]

Pay him now. Didn't you learn your lesson with KO? Players want long term deals, and he hasn't shown any indication he's the type of player who needs to be incentivized. Lock him up.

Players want the most money. A deal similar to Malik Jackson's deal is what it would take to sign him before free agency - 6 years $90 million. Is he worth $15 million per year?

The only players signing extensions before FA are the players getting offers to make them the highest paid players at their positions (Andrew Luck, Harrison Smith, Fletcher Cox, JJ Watt, etc). Jimmy Smith was 5 years ago - agents & players don't do that anymore coming off their rookie contracts.

[alexbayrobin]

1 hour ago, Ravensfansince03 said:

1 hour ago, RavenROC said:

Pay him now. Didn't you learn your lesson with KO? Players want long term deals, and he hasn't shown any indication he's the type of player who needs to be incentivized. Lock him up.

No sir, Osemele was a MUCH MORE VALUABLE PLAYER than Williams. A coach said last night that the key to a dominant O-line is having a group of guys on the line that have played with each other for years, and trust each other. With Osemele gone, and Monroe out, I wouldn't be surprised if our O-line has taken a step backward, even with Stanley.

Osemele was key to our offense success. He literally drove defenders to the ground. And made sure they knew not to mess with him again.

Wow, I really hope you're wrong. we are going to need that offensive line to be very good and possibly great. According to PFF Joe doesn't do well under a lot of pressure but not many quarterbacks do. That's the key to stopping an offense a lot of pressure on their quarterback

Edited July 12, 2016 by alexbayrobin

[whobilly]

"The Ravens have had a lot of success finding those big bodied diamonds in the rough on day 3 of the draft". If that's the case what diamond in the rough turned into an impact player vs a roster filler?

[fusuymada]

“Flacco has talent, but more than many QBs, he needs to be surrounded with the right supporting cast to excel, and even then you are at the mercy of his greater-than-average variance in form." Ha ha ha was that meant to be a joke because at what point in Flacco's career has he had an outstanding cast around him. Sure, on defense, but thats not around him. Ray Lewis didn't catch TD's during his 11 TD 0 INT playoff run. I didn't see Ed Reed toting the ball out of the backfield. I am sorry but an old Derrick Mason and Steve Smith, both who produce well for guys their age, is the best that Joe has had to throw to in 8 years. Where did the writer come up with the right supporting cast that has helped him through? This is the first year I can ever remember that we had multiple game breakers in every skill position on offense. Never have we had a killer wide receiver corps, only in the last good year Pitta had did we have a quality TE (Heap was old when Flacco got here). And Rice, when he was here and not fumbling, was pretty good out of the backfield. But never have we been able to put all three together with multiple quality players in each position. This year we have Perriman, Smith, Wallace and Aiken, all great receivers, Forsett, Allen, Henry and West (Richardson) are all good runners and the best TE group in football with Williams, Watson, Pitta and Gillmore. If Flacco flubs up this year, then I will buy it and eat my words, but if he throws for over 4000 and we get in the playoff, I expect someone else to eat their words.

[dirtybird66]

i agree with not signing WILLIAMS to big deal right now,it always seems OZZIE keeps a great guy waiting in the wings like JERNIGAN to hedge his betts,i hate always losing guys to other teams,NGATA and KRUGER,are lucks gonna run out some day,but with WILLIAMS,i'd wait and see.as far as FLACCO and qb. rankings,if only he played the way he did in the superbowl year all the time,then he would be elite,but generally he ranks about 14 best,i agree,BRADFORD is better,CUTLER a notch behind.i'd actually say that COUSINS is better than FLACCO,right now and his cieling is higher,i always wished the LIONS and BRADFORD fell apart,i also wish we were in a position to grab BREES when us and other teams thought his shoulder was an issue,we would be taliking atleast 2 more BOWLS right now.

[rossihunter2]

2 minutes ago, dirtybird66 said:

i agree with not signing WILLIAMS to big deal right now,it always seems OZZIE keeps a great guy waiting in the wings like JERNIGAN to hedge his betts,i hate always losing guys to other teams,NGATA and KRUGER,are lucks gonna run out some day,but with WILLIAMS,i'd wait and see.as far as FLACCO and qb. rankings,if only he played the way he did in the superbowl year all the time,then he would be elite,but generally he ranks about 14 best,i agree,BRADFORD is better,CUTLER a notch behind.i'd actually say that COUSINS is better than FLACCO,right now and his cieling is higher,i always wished the LIONS and BRADFORD fell apart,i also wish we were in a position to grab BREES when us and other teams thought his shoulder was an issue,we would be taliking atleast 2 more BOWLS right now.

what makes you think bradford is even close to flacco let alone better and cutler and cousins are definitely behind - flacco is a franchise quarterback, if the redskins thought cousins was as good as flacco they'd have paid him rather than franchised him, if bradford was as good as flacco he wouldn't have changed teams and the eagles wouldn't have drafted his replacement and if cutler was as good as flacco he wouldn't be labelled the coach killer for getting all his head coaches fired. At worst, flacco is around the 10th qb spot.

[Obie]

Come on guys, how many of those yo yo qbs above joe has a ring, let alone a playoff game win? Bottom line, joe is elite, he wins games, period.

[eze17]

PFF is talking about regular season QB rankings. We all know that joe has never put up superstar regular season stats, but he would be way higher for post season rankings, which is all I care about. We also know where the bums that got mentioned being above him will be in January.

[Crusader]

Honestly, If they could, I would have let Broken foot Jimmy go before I would have let Osemele go. This New Ravens team has lost all common sense and Jimmy will be another part time playing player like Webb.

[ellicottraven]

With regard to Brandon Williams I totally agree with Russell Street Report. There is no point extending him in his contract year. And with the talent we’ve amassed on the D-line if he proves more expensive we will indeed receive a really high compensatory pick for him. So, let him play for his future contract.

[20306cab]

  5 hours ago, dirtybird66 said:

i agree with not signing WILLIAMS to big deal right now,it always seems OZZIE keeps a great guy waiting in the wings like JERNIGAN to hedge his betts,i hate always losing guys to other teams,NGATA and KRUGER,are lucks gonna run out some day,but with WILLIAMS,i'd wait and see.as far as FLACCO and qb. rankings,if only he played the way he did in the superbowl year all the time,then he would be elite,but generally he ranks about 14 best,i agree,BRADFORD is better,CUTLER a notch behind.i'd actually say that COUSINS is better than FLACCO,right now and his cieling is higher,i always wished the LIONS and BRADFORD fell apart,i also wish we were in a position to grab BREES when us and other teams thought his shoulder was an issue,we would be taliking atleast 2 more BOWLS right now.

what makes you think bradford is even close to flacco let alone better and cutler and cousins are definitely behind - flacco is a franchise quarterback, if the redskins thought cousins was as good as flacco they'd have paid him rather than franchised him, if bradford was as good as flacco he wouldn't have changed teams and the eagles wouldn't have drafted his replacement and if cutler was as good as flacco he wouldn't be labelled the coach killer for getting all his head coaches fired. At worst, flacco is around the 10th qb spot.

Actually, looks like the Skins are going to school on the Flacco contract. Average Joe has been awful since he signed his contract. Fair contract at the time. Can't blame the Ravens. Don't think Washington wants to be stuck with an Albatross for the next five years, and be hamstrung with money issues for the next decade due to one bad contract. Jump Ball Joe at no. 10, huh? HAHAHAHA. 25 is about right.

[20306cab]

“Flacco has talent, but more than many QBs, he needs to be surrounded with the right supporting cast to excel, and even then you are at the mercy of his greater-than-average variance in form." Ha ha ha was that meant to be a joke because at what point in Flacco's career has he had an outstanding cast around him. Sure, on defense, but thats not around him. Ray Lewis didn't catch TD's during his 11 TD 0 INT playoff run. I didn't see Ed Reed toting the ball out of the backfield. I am sorry but an old Derrick Mason and Steve Smith, both who produce well for guys their age, is the best that Joe has had to throw to in 8 years. Where did the writer come up with the right supporting cast that has helped him through? This is the first year I can ever remember that we had multiple game breakers in every skill position on offense. Never have we had a killer wide receiver corps, only in the last good year Pitta had did we have a quality TE (Heap was old when Flacco got here). And Rice, when he was here and not fumbling, was pretty good out of the backfield. But never have we been able to put all three together with multiple quality players in each position. This year we have Perriman, Smith, Wallace and Aiken, all great receivers, Forsett, Allen, Henry and West (Richardson) are all good runners and the best TE group in football with Williams, Watson, Pitta and Gillmore. If Flacco flubs up this year, then I will buy it and eat my words, but if he throws for over 4000 and we get in the playoff, I expect someone else to eat their words.

??????????
1.Perriman a great receiver with ZERO catches in the NFL.
2.Greatest TE group in the NFL, with a 35 year old, a guy with a chronic hip injury, and the other two guys with less than 50 combined catches in the NFL. Oh yeah, two other guys suspended.
3.Forsett, Allen, Henry and West? Your kidding, right. Dixon, Maybe.
4. A rookie LT and a mathematician at LG. Good luck.
5.Multiple game breakers at every position. HAHA
6.Average Joe, 4000 yds. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[EdTheMythicalOne]

"The Ravens have had a lot of success finding those big bodied diamonds in the rough on day 3 of the draft". If that's the case what diamond in the rough turned into an impact player vs a roster filler?

Are you speaking abut DT alone or just any position? Here's a list for you:

2000: 6th round: Adalius Thomas: LB/DE
2002: 6th round: Chester Taylor: RB
2003: 4th round: Jarret Johnson: LB, Ovie Mughelli: FB
2003: 5th round: Aubrayo Franklin: DT, Tony Pashos: OT
2004: Dwan Edwards was a 2nd round pick
2005: 4th round: Jason Brown: C/LG
2006: 5th round: Dwan Landry : S
2006: 6th round: Sam Koch: P
2007: 3rd round: Marshal Yanda: RG
2007: 4th round: LeRon McClain: FB
2009: 3rd round: Lardarrius Webb: CB/S
2010: 4th round: Dennis Pitta: TE
2010: 5th Round: Arthur Jones: DL
2011: 5th round: Pernell McPhee: DE
2011: 6th round: Tyrod Taylor QB
2013: 3rd round: Brandon Williams: NT
2013: 4th round: John Simon: OLB (big year for Houston)
2013: 4th round: Kyle Jusczyzk: FB
2013: 4th round: Rick Wagner: RT
2013: 6th round: Ryan Jensen: OG

around 2014 we're getting into territory where it is a bit too soon to tell, but:

2014: 3rd round: Crockett Gillmore: TE
2014: 4th round: Brent Urban: DE (health?)
2014: 5th round: John Urschel: OG (might be future center)
2014: 7th round: Micheal Campanaro: WR: if he could stay healthy, he would have been on the field.

2015: 3rd round: Carl Davis: DT/DE
2015: 4th round: Za'Darius Smith: OLB/DE
2015: 4th round: Javorius Allen: RB

That enough for you?

[EdTheMythicalOne]

I really like Brandon Williams and he is far and away one of the best run defenders in the game right now. He also does the dirty work in pass rushing as he eats up blocks to free up other guys to make plays. He's gotten close to the QB's in pressure at times, but I think he can do a little better there. I am sure you will find plays where he gets stood up from time to time, but that happens to the best players in the game. They aren't going to win 100% of their battles. He's been extremely durable and productive and has been a strong core of the Ravens defense. Right now I don't see good enough talent behind him and we'd be hard pressed to replace him right now.

It is tough to put a high dollar value on him right now because he doesn't produce the "sexy" stats of sacks. I think it really will come down to how much money he really wants and if it is reasonable the Ravens wouldn't sneeze at locking him up. Right player, right price.

The only thing I could see potentially being a factor is if the Ravens make a huge change to their defensive philosophy. They run a hybrid 3-4/4-3 defense which leans more towards a 3 defensive lineman set more often than not. If they make a fundamental change to go more base 4-3 then that might be a factor. They don't need that one big dominating guy if they can make up for it in the aggregate of two guys eating up space.

I think they look at him this year about half way through the season and if he's having a typical season or better they engage him in talks. Better to get him inked now before he vastly increases his stock by having a monster break out year for whatever reason. He'll get to a pro bowl eventually.

[sizzlingdoom]

  16 hours ago, whobilly said:

"The Ravens have had a lot of success finding those big bodied diamonds in the rough on day 3 of the draft". If that's the case what diamond in the rough turned into an impact player vs a roster filler?

Are you speaking abut DT alone or just any position? Here's a list for you:

2000: 6th round: Adalius Thomas: LB/DE
2002: 6th round: Chester Taylor: RB
2003: 4th round: Jarret Johnson: LB, Ovie Mughelli: FB
2003: 5th round: Aubrayo Franklin: DT, Tony Pashos: OT
2004: Dwan Edwards was a 2nd round pick
2005: 4th round: Jason Brown: C/LG
2006: 5th round: Dwan Landry : S
2006: 6th round: Sam Koch: P
2007: 3rd round: Marshal Yanda: RG
2007: 4th round: LeRon McClain: FB
2009: 3rd round: Lardarrius Webb: CB/S
2010: 4th round: Dennis Pitta: TE
2010: 5th Round: Arthur Jones: DL
2011: 5th round: Pernell McPhee: DE
2011: 6th round: Tyrod Taylor QB
2013: 3rd round: Brandon Williams: NT
2013: 4th round: John Simon: OLB (big year for Houston)
2013: 4th round: Kyle Jusczyzk: FB
2013: 4th round: Rick Wagner: RT
2013: 6th round: Ryan Jensen: OG

around 2014 we're getting into territory where it is a bit too soon to tell, but:

2014: 3rd round: Crockett Gillmore: TE
2014: 4th round: Brent Urban: DE (health?)
2014: 5th round: John Urschel: OG (might be future center)
2014: 7th round: Micheal Campanaro: WR: if he could stay healthy, he would have been on the field.

2015: 3rd round: Carl Davis: DT/DE
2015: 4th round: Za'Darius Smith: OLB/DE
2015: 4th round: Javorius Allen: RB

That enough for you?

We're talking about replacing BWIll, so clearly he's talking about D Lineman. Therefor you listed 2!!!!!!!! impact D lineman found on the 3rd day of the draft!!!! C'mon man!

[OUravensfan]

19 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

what makes you think bradford is even close to flacco let alone better and cutler and cousins are definitely behind - flacco is a franchise quarterback, if the redskins thought cousins was as good as flacco they'd have paid him rather than franchised him, if bradford was as good as flacco he wouldn't have changed teams and the eagles wouldn't have drafted his replacement and if cutler was as good as flacco he wouldn't be labelled the coach killer for getting all his head coaches fired. At worst, flacco is around the 10th qb spot.

It's not even worth arguing with someone that thinks Bradford is better, what is the point of reasoning with that?

[OUravensfan]

14 hours ago, 20306cab said:

Actually, looks like the Skins are going to school on the Flacco contract. Average Joe has been awful since he signed his contract. Fair contract at the time. Can't blame the Ravens. Don't think Washington wants to be stuck with an Albatross for the next five years, and be hamstrung with money issues for the next decade due to one bad contract. Jump Ball Joe at no. 10, huh? HAHAHAHA. 25 is about right.

Would you rather have Dalton?

[Tdot.to.Bmore]

  22 hours ago, fusuymada said:

“Flacco has talent, but more than many QBs, he needs to be surrounded with the right supporting cast to excel, and even then you are at the mercy of his greater-than-average variance in form." Ha ha ha was that meant to be a joke because at what point in Flacco's career has he had an outstanding cast around him. Sure, on defense, but thats not around him. Ray Lewis didn't catch TD's during his 11 TD 0 INT playoff run. I didn't see Ed Reed toting the ball out of the backfield. I am sorry but an old Derrick Mason and Steve Smith, both who produce well for guys their age, is the best that Joe has had to throw to in 8 years. Where did the writer come up with the right supporting cast that has helped him through? This is the first year I can ever remember that we had multiple game breakers in every skill position on offense. Never have we had a killer wide receiver corps, only in the last good year Pitta had did we have a quality TE (Heap was old when Flacco got here). And Rice, when he was here and not fumbling, was pretty good out of the backfield. But never have we been able to put all three together with multiple quality players in each position. This year we have Perriman, Smith, Wallace and Aiken, all great receivers, Forsett, Allen, Henry and West (Richardson) are all good runners and the best TE group in football with Williams, Watson, Pitta and Gillmore. If Flacco flubs up this year, then I will buy it and eat my words, but if he throws for over 4000 and we get in the playoff, I expect someone else to eat their words.

??????????
1.Perriman a great receiver with ZERO catches in the NFL.
2.Greatest TE group in the NFL, with a 35 year old, a guy with a chronic hip injury, and the other two guys with less than 50 combined catches in the NFL. Oh yeah, two other guys suspended.
3.Forsett, Allen, Henry and West? Your kidding, right. Dixon, Maybe.
4. A rookie LT and a mathematician at LG. Good luck.
5.Multiple game breakers at every position. HAHA
6.Average Joe, 4000 yds. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

you must be a steeler fan thats trolling hard right now. calm down.

[Tdot.to.Bmore]

i think you let him play out this year. if the other big boys play really well, we let him walk unless he gives us a hometown discount. If the other big boys don't play well then we have to bite the bullet and keep this mammoth.

[rmcjacket23]

On 7/12/2016 at 10:38 AM, Ravensfansince03 said:

No sir, Osemele was a MUCH MORE VALUABLE PLAYER than Williams. A coach said last night that the key to a dominant O-line is having a group of guys on the line that have played with each other for years, and trust each other. With Osemele gone, and Monroe out, I wouldn't be surprised if our O-line has taken a step backward, even with Stanley.

Osemele was key to our offense success. He literally drove defenders to the ground. And made sure they knew not to mess with him again.

Well, that would depend. For starters, we can't really know just how valuable KO is yet, because we haven't seen us play without him. Generally speaking, I find Guards in this league overrated, especially on this team, which has a lengthy track record of churning out quality interior lineman from less than ideal draft pick slots. I mean there were countless people who thought we made the wrong choice keeping Yanda over Grubbs, and they thought we were in big trouble when Grubbs left. Less than two years later, people completely forgot about him.

Financial compensation differences have a lot to do with "value". If KO is making $12M, and we get a Guard who plays well but not as good for $1M, is KO really that valuable? Are you getting nearly 12x the ROI from him? Kind of a tough sell for a position like Guard, which is largely dependent on a collection of offensive lineman working well together.

You could make the same case for Williams, though you'd have to gauge what kind of replacement level player we could get, what the dropoff in production would be, and what the cost is.

In general, I'd say an elite NT is more difficult to find than an elite Guard. The compensation levels aren't the same though, so its hard to gauge.

[rmcjacket23]

On 7/12/2016 at 10:53 AM, bioLarzen said:

As long as there is another GM who's willing to overpay his market value, he's hardly going to be retained.

True, but Williams market shrinks quite a bit, considering he's pretty much a prototype NT who doesn't rush the passer. He's not going to fit well in at least half the defenses in the league.

[rmcjacket23]

23 hours ago, TheConquerorWorm said:

Players want the most money. A deal similar to Malik Jackson's deal is what it would take to sign him before free agency - 6 years $90 million. Is he worth $15 million per year?

The only players signing extensions before FA are the players getting offers to make them the highest paid players at their positions (Andrew Luck, Harrison Smith, Fletcher Cox, JJ Watt, etc). Jimmy Smith was 5 years ago - agents & players don't do that anymore coming off their rookie contracts.

Yeah you've said this a couple times, and its just inaccurate. You're comparing two completely different players at two completely different positions who are being asked to do two completely different things.

Williams won't be getting anything near to a Malik Jackson deal. Those guys are pass rushers.

Also, you might want to go back and revisit the Eagles entire offseason. They locked up like a half dozen of their own guys well before FA hit.

Edited July 13, 2016 by rmcjacket23