NFL.com's David Carr says Flacco is Number 3 overrated QB

[Winchester]

I like Joe Cool but I can see the argument against him. To make him the highest paid is like suggesting he is in the category of Rodgers Brady Brees Roethlisberger.When a team makes a player highest paid at his position that dude is generally one of the elite. Top5 at his position or even better. To give Joe flacco that contract is suggesting that he is one of the truly elite to some people. And Joe cool is not quite in that exclusive fraternity with Brady Rodger. Those guys can carry a team on their backs. This is a big year for Joe cool. The superbowl run will not carry him through criticism again. He has to perform this year. I know Joe has played well in the playoffs for most part but the argument against that is the ravens team usually steps up. Even Hurst played well in the playoffs. Boldin and Pitts played on a crazy good level pulling in all those 50 50 balls that were thrown up for grabs. No matter which side of the argument you are on this is a big year for Joe cool. He shows he can rebound and get the ravens back to winning Or if ravens struggle he will be slandered by critics.

 

[usmccharles]

4 hours ago, Winchester said:

I like Joe Cool but I can see the argument against him. To make him the highest paid is like suggesting he is in the category of Rodgers Brady Brees Roethlisberger.When a team makes a player highest paid at his position that dude is generally one of the elite. Top5 at his position or even better. To give Joe flacco that contract is suggesting that he is one of the truly elite to some people. And Joe cool is not quite in that exclusive fraternity with Brady Rodger. Those guys can carry a team on their backs. This is a big year for Joe cool. The superbowl run will not carry him through criticism again. He has to perform this year. I know Joe has played well in the playoffs for most part but the argument against that is the ravens team usually steps up. Even Hurst played well in the playoffs. Boldin and Pitts played on a crazy good level pulling in all those 50 50 balls that were thrown up for grabs. No matter which side of the argument you are on this is a big year for Joe cool. He shows he can rebound and get the ravens back to winning Or if ravens struggle he will be slandered by critics.

 

I can somewhat agree with you and disagree at the same time.  Joe deserves to be criticized, as does any player, for his inconsistent play and as much as I support Joe, hes not elite imo, I put him around 7 or so.  As far as the contracts go, its just market value and great timing by Joe that allowed for him to hit it big after the Super Bowl.  After the post season he had, SB MVP, he had all the leverage and with inflation of the market it just made sense.  Look at all the insane contracts QBs are getting now, that's because market value for a franchise QB is sky high. 

[berad]

4 hours ago, usmccharles said:

I can somewhat agree with you and disagree at the same time.  Joe deserves to be criticized, as does any player, for his inconsistent play and as much as I support Joe, hes not elite imo, I put him around 7 or so.  As far as the contracts go, its just market value and great timing by Joe that allowed for him to hit it big after the Super Bowl.  After the post season he had, SB MVP, he had all the leverage and with inflation of the market it just made sense.  Look at all the insane contracts QBs are getting now, that's because market value for a franchise QB is sky high. 

Agree with all of this

[Purple_City39]

9 hours ago, Winchester said:

I like Joe Cool but I can see the argument against him. To make him the highest paid is like suggesting he is in the category of Rodgers Brady Brees Roethlisberger.When a team makes a player highest paid at his position that dude is generally one of the elite. Top5 at his position or even better. To give Joe flacco that contract is suggesting that he is one of the truly elite to some people. And Joe cool is not quite in that exclusive fraternity with Brady Rodger. Those guys can carry a team on their backs. This is a big year for Joe cool. The superbowl run will not carry him through criticism again. He has to perform this year. I know Joe has played well in the playoffs for most part but the argument against that is the ravens team usually steps up. Even Hurst played well in the playoffs. Boldin and Pitts played on a crazy good level pulling in all those 50 50 balls that were thrown up for grabs. No matter which side of the argument you are on this is a big year for Joe cool. He shows he can rebound and get the ravens back to winning Or if ravens struggle he will be slandered by critics.

 

i think all the talk about contracts supposedly equaling talent is and always has been a reach.  There's simply an NFL market per positon.  Matt Ryan has a higher contract than Brady and Brees, does that imply he's better?  I live in Atlanta and even the natives don't think that.

If you do want to compare, since the 2010 season, Joe's playoff performance is top 3 on that list and in the NFL.  The only players in his realm are Rodgers and Brees (Brees is the playoff performance messiah).  Add in that Joe's done it with constantly changing players around him at skill positions and not one big superstar among them.  No Nelson, Brown, or Gronk.  That's probably a huge reason the front office has no issues paying him.

I don't honestly think Joe's top 5, but he's definitely top 10.  People focus on the superbowl run, but Joe's done a lot more than just that.  He was carried to post season victories in 2008 and 2009, but he's been a big factor since.  That's more than just one playoff run

[Edgar]

10 hours ago, Winchester said:

I like Joe Cool but I can see the argument against him. To make him the highest paid is like suggesting he is in the category of Rodgers Brady Brees Roethlisberger.When a team makes a player highest paid at his position that dude is generally one of the elite. Top5 at his position or even better. To give Joe flacco that contract is suggesting that he is one of the truly elite to some people. And Joe cool is not quite in that exclusive fraternity with Brady Rodger. Those guys can carry a team on their backs. This is a big year for Joe cool. The superbowl run will not carry him through criticism again. He has to perform this year. I know Joe has played well in the playoffs for most part but the argument against that is the ravens team usually steps up. Even Hurst played well in the playoffs. Boldin and Pitts played on a crazy good level pulling in all those 50 50 balls that were thrown up for grabs. No matter which side of the argument you are on this is a big year for Joe cool. He shows he can rebound and get the ravens back to winning Or if ravens struggle he will be slandered by critics.

 

Agreed that this is a big year for Joe in terms of perception. There is an expectation that he takes us to the post season this year.

If we fail to make the playoffs a lot of the criticism will fall on him. The narrative being that since the super bowl we will have missed the playoffs three out of four years.

[Sami84]

lets say we miss the playoffs ( i'd say theres a decent chance of that) and joe plays like he did in all but two seasons (2010,2014) ..which is basically not very good, should we consider trading him? Or should we flat out tell him that he needs to take  a paycut or this team will never make it to a SB as long as his contract stands..?

 

[berad]

26 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

lets say we miss the playoffs ( i'd say theres a decent chance of that) and joe plays like he did in all but two seasons (2010,2014) ..which is basically not very good, should we consider trading him? Or should we flat out tell him that he needs to take  a paycut or this team will never make it to a SB as long as his contract stands..?

 

 

I know you're just spit-balling... or whatever... but...

The dead money attached to his deal makes it highly unlikely he would be cut or traded any time in the foreseeable future.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

43 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

lets say we miss the playoffs ( i'd say theres a decent chance of that) and joe plays like he did in all but two seasons (2010,2014) ..which is basically not very good, should we consider trading him? Or should we flat out tell him that he needs to take  a paycut or this team will never make it to a SB as long as his contract stands..?

 

I think we'd set a record for highest % of cap tied up in dead money if we tried to trade Flacco next year. Like $70m or something like that accelerated onto our cap for 2017.

That might work.

[harfordravenfan]

3 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I think we'd set a record for highest % of cap tied up in dead money if we tried to trade Flacco next year. Like $70m or something like that accelerated onto our cap for 2017.

That might work.

That'd give the Ozzie haters something to talk about (rightly so)

 

[Sami84]

yeah and the more i think of it i don't think flacco would actually be wanted. If he were to have a bad season, coming off an injury ( not that its an excuse really as he's recovered well from it) and at 32 he wouldnt fetch anything thats worth it.

 

i didnt like the reworked contract. Bascially he can play below average for a couple more years until we can get rid of him :/ i dont see him as the type that see's his contract as not working for the benefit for the team. Make no mistake, if flacco doesnt perform this year, people on this forum really need to look at his body of work and barring a magical playoff run and 2 solid/above average seasons, hes been rubbish.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Sami84

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

57 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

yeah and the more i think of it i don't think flacco would actually be wanted. If he were to have a bad season, coming off an injury ( not that its an excuse really as he's recovered well from it) and at 32 he wouldnt fetch anything thats worth it.

 

i didnt like the reworked contract. Bascially he can play below average for a couple more years until we can get rid of him :/ i dont see him as the type that see's his contract as not working for the benefit for the team. Make no mistake, if flacco doesnt perform this year, people on this forum really need to look at his body of work and barring a magical playoff run and 2 solid/above average seasons, hes been rubbish.

You do realize his contract is set up that his salary/cap hit are only slightly more over the next 5-6 years than what QBs like Bradford and Osweiler made in the FA market this year.

With the rate of inflation that we've seen, even if you dont like Flacco or he never lives up to some peoples expectation of him - i think we can all agree he's better than Bradford and Brock - he's a relative bargain for 5 years.

In a couple years, a veteran replacement level QB will prob cost at least 50% more than Flacco does. And a basement dwelling, back up caliber QB will cost probably 25% more at least. And that number will only rise the further into Joes contract we get. And thats the beauty of how its now set up.

It stagnates, so if Joe declines as he does so he remains just as affordable relatively speaking. Unless of course you think it'd be a good idea to scrap Flacco and sign a Bradford-like QB for even more money than Flacco's making.

[Sami84]

10 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

You do realize his contract is set up that his salary/cap hit are only slightly more over the next 5-6 years than what QBs like Bradford and Osweiler made in the FA market this year.

With the rate of inflation that we've seen, even if you dont like Flacco or he never lives up to some peoples expectation of him - i think we can all agree he's better than Bradford and Brock - he's a relative bargain for 5 years.

In a couple years, a veteran replacement level QB will prob cost at least 50% more than Flacco does. And a basement dwelling, back up caliber QB will cost probably 25% more at least. And that number will only rise the further into Joes contract we get. And thats the beauty of how its now set up.

It stagnates, so if Joe declines as he does so he remains just as affordable relatively speaking. Unless of course you think it'd be a good idea to scrap Flacco and sign a Bradford-like QB for even more money than Flacco's making.

 

i dont care for comparing bad vs really bad. I'm tired of the ''oh well, joes crap but hey it COULD be worse''. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

3 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

i dont care for comparing bad vs really bad. I'm tired of the ''oh well, joes crap but hey it COULD be worse''. 

Even if i were to accept the point that Joe is crap... the bad vs really bad does apply since youre discussing his contract. In this market the really bad are getting relatively the same contract. 

Since the money is the sticking point, and youre advocating moving on from Joe - replacing him for the same money nets you a worse player going forward. If you want to upgrade youre going to spend vastly more, or enter the crapshoot of drafting a QB in the mid-to-late 1st round unless of course as a team we're bad enough to be picking 1st or 2nd overall (which then its arguably still a crap shoot.)

[Winchester]

3 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Even if i were to accept the point that Joe is crap... the bad vs really bad does apply since youre discussing his contract. In this market the really bad are getting relatively the same contract. 

Since the money is the sticking point, and youre advocating moving on from Joe - replacing him for the same money nets you a worse player going forward. If you want to upgrade youre going to spend vastly more, or enter the crapshoot of drafting a QB in the mid-to-late 1st round unless of course as a team we're bad enough to be picking 1st or 2nd overall (which then its arguably still a crap shoot.)

If Joe Cool bombs out the ravens could look to the draft or a young backup with talent like Garappolo mettenberger or Aaron murray. I don't believe the ravens would give $10mil+ per for a mediocre or worse qb yet again. And before I shelled out near $20mil per for a Bradford or osweilerni would take my chances with a young talented qb like Garappolo Mettenberger or murray. I do not see how starting 5 games and not really impressing justifies $17mil per. As opposed to if he did not start those games he would not make a quarter of that.I could see if he really lit it up but the offense stalled and Peyton was put back in. I would trade for Aaron murray who makes fast reads with very good accuracy and mobility. Before paying a below average qb that kind of money. But I agree it would take more than one crappy year to run Joe Cool out of town. If Joe cool is subpar again the ravens would probably spend big to put weapons around him with no more aging cast off patchwork wrs and give him a crack at it the following year. If he is subpar 2 yrs in a row then management would begin looking into finding a new qb. He would then be the new grbac.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

2 hours ago, Winchester said:

If Joe Cool bombs out the ravens could look to the draft or a young backup with talent like Garappolo mettenberger or Aaron murray. I don't believe the ravens would give $10mil+ per for a mediocre or worse qb yet again. And before I shelled out near $20mil per for a Bradford or osweilerni would take my chances with a young talented qb like Garappolo Mettenberger or murray. I do not see how starting 5 games and not really impressing justifies $17mil per. As opposed to if he did not start those games he would not make a quarter of that.I could see if he really lit it up but the offense stalled and Peyton was put back in. I would trade for Aaron murray who makes fast reads with very good accuracy and mobility. Before paying a below average qb that kind of money. But I agree it would take more than one crappy year to run Joe Cool out of town. If Joe cool is subpar again the ravens would probably spend big to put weapons around him with no more aging cast off patchwork wrs and give him a crack at it the following year. If he is subpar 2 yrs in a row then management would begin looking into finding a new qb. He would then be the new grbac.

If Garappolo plays well in his 4 starts he'll command just as much if not more than Bradford and Brock got. 

Mettenberger and Murray?? Your next Marqis Lee and Housler. 

They're not good. 

Why would you scrap your SB MVP winning, among the winningest QBs in history through this stage in his career, who's a proven postseason winner capable of putting a team on his back in the biggest moments, who has continued to improve, and will finally have a decent cast of weapons for the first time in his career with a competent OC..... For other teams failed experiments who've proven incapable of winning their own teams' training camp practices let alone actual, meaningful games.

 

Cant be serious. 

Edited June 25, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[OUravensfan]

On June 23, 2016 at 11:03 PM, Winchester said:

I like Joe Cool but I can see the argument against him. To make him the highest paid is like suggesting he is in the category of Rodgers Brady Brees Roethlisberger.When a team makes a player highest paid at his position that dude is generally one of the elite. Top5 at his position or even better. To give Joe flacco that contract is suggesting that he is one of the truly elite to some people. And Joe cool is not quite in that exclusive fraternity with Brady Rodger. Those guys can carry a team on their backs. This is a big year for Joe cool. The superbowl run will not carry him through criticism again. He has to perform this year. I know Joe has played well in the playoffs for most part but the argument against that is the ravens team usually steps up. Even Hurst played well in the playoffs. Boldin and Pitts played on a crazy good level pulling in all those 50 50 balls that were thrown up for grabs. No matter which side of the argument you are on this is a big year for Joe cool. He shows he can rebound and get the ravens back to winning Or if ravens struggle he will be slandered by critics.

 

Pretty much every franchise QB on their second contract will make between 18-22 a year. Typically each subsequent contract establishes a new floor, Andrew Luck is going to get something huge

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

5 hours ago, OUravensfan said:

Pretty much every franchise QB on their second contract will make between 18-22 a year. Typically each subsequent contract establishes a new floor, Andrew Luck is going to get something huge

I've heard rumors it could approach $30m/yr average. 

Which will make Joes contract a bargain since every QB who's ever won a game will command $20m minimum. 

[Winchester]

16 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

If Garappolo plays well in his 4 starts he'll command just as much if not more than Bradford and Brock got. 

Mettenberger and Murray?? Your next Marqis Lee and Housler. 

They're not good. 

Why would you scrap your SB MVP winning, among the winningest QBs in history through this stage in his career, who's a proven postseason winner capable of putting a team on his back in the biggest moments, who has continued to improve, and will finally have a decent cast of weapons for the first time in his career with a competent OC..... For other teams failed experiments who've proven incapable of winning their own teams' training camp practices let alone actual, meaningful games.

 

Cant be serious. 

If Joe has 2 terrible yrs I do not believe he would want to be here. The fans would decimate him. And that would not exactly be a franchise qb at all

[ravensdan]

7 hours ago, Winchester said:

If Joe has 2 terrible yrs I do not believe he would want to be here. The fans would decimate him. And that would not exactly be a franchise qb at all

 

I know you're answering based off the premise of Joe having two terrible years. I'm certainly very concerned about him coming back from this injury as that would completely decimate this team for years. However if he has two terrible years in a row they would be the first two so outside of the injury that's just not going to happen. 

[harfordravenfan]

Would much rather play the wait and see game versus the what if game that always seems to be focused on a negative.

Joe potentially has more weapons than he has ever had before. What if he puts up ridiculous stats and leads the team to another playoff run, nvm haters still gonna hate

[Sami84]

9 hours ago, ravensdan said:

 

I know you're answering based off the premise of Joe having two terrible years. I'm certainly very concerned about him coming back from this injury as that would completely decimate this team for years. However if he has two terrible years in a row they would be the first two so outside of the injury that's just not going to happen. 

 

you kidding? outside of 2010 and 2014 and his magical post season run in 2012 hes been bad or at best average. For the amount hes being paid his overall play has been an abomination..

[gooftroop]

1 hour ago, Sami84 said:

you kidding? outside of 2010 and 2014 and his magical post season run in 2012 hes been bad or at best average. For the amount hes being paid his overall play has been an abomination..

Can we equate "abomination" to being the worst, or one of two or three worst, qb's in the league? Or is hyperbole your specialty?

[Halshayeji]

Stop being so humble Mr. Carr! We all know you were one the worst 1st overall picks ever and I won't pile up but il just mention two ironic memories in my head.

1- you were so bad that the poor Texans thought Schaub was Brady after you. They even payed him like a top QB because of your sorry play a few years earlier. 

2- your brother fell to the second round when he was obviously a first round talent. U know why? Because people feared he'd be an over rated bust like his older brother.

In other words. If your career is made of glass. Don't throw stones at Super Bowl MVPs...

Edited June 26, 2016 by Halshayeji

[Winchester]

Begin by listing the qbs better than Joe cool, worse then the ones that are close call. The qbs that are close are Bortles, Daulton, Carr, Eli manning. Better are Brady,Rodgers,Brees,luck,Wilson,palmer,Romo, and Newton although injuries could have caught up to Romo and Palmer so those dudes you could put in the maybe category. There are lots of variables. Over last couple drafts 4 talented qbs have come into the league so the qbs that are close with joe cool could change.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Winchester

[Winchester]

48 minutes ago, Halshayeji said:

Stop being so humble Mr. Carr! We all know you were one the worst 1st overall picks ever and I won't pile up but il just mention two ironic memories in my head.

1- you were so bad that the poor Texans thought Schaub was Brady after you. They even payed him like a top QB because of your sorry play a few years earlier. 

2- your brother fell to the second round when he was obviously a first round talent. U know why? Because people feared he'd be an over rated bust like his older brother.

In other words. If your career is made of glass. Don't throw stones at Super Bowl MVPs...

He is a commentator/analyst now. It is his job. Why do different opinions eat people up so badly on this board??

[ravensdan]

57 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Begin by listing the qbs better than Joe cool, worse then the ones that are close call. The qbs that are close are Bortles, Daulton, Carr, Eli manning. Better are Brady,Rodgers,Brees,luck,Wilson,palmer,Romo, and Newton although injuries could have caught up to Romo and Palmer so those dudes you could put in the maybe category. There are lots of variables. Over last couple drafts 4 talented qbs have come into the league so the qbs that are close with joe cool could change.

I think Brady brees Rodgers are one group. Then you have luck Wilson Newton Palmer romo Ben joe Eli as close. Dalton bortkes and others I put in the next group. 

[ravensdan]

Oh yea rivers in there too. 

[ALSKAN RAVEN FAN]

Honestly I think Flacco is average or slightly above average during the regular season showing great awareness with great touch at times and also showing bone headed plays at other times. It's when the Ravens make it to the post season then all of a sudden he becomes one of the most dangerous QB's in the NFL. Flacco has outplayed Brady a few times in the playoffs and was the more elite QB on the field in those games. 2 loses not Flacco's fault were the Lee Evens drop in the last seconds of the game that ball was in Evans hands period he dropped it for the loss Flacco drove the team down the field and put the ball on the money and the 2nd loss was where Flacco gave the Ravens two 14 point leads and the defense made Brady look like a genius in the second half as he drove down the field throwing almost all his passes short left. That was a loss by the defense but blamed on injuries yet in the first half the blitzes were coming and the pressure was on Brady then in the second half all of a sudden the blitzes just stopped.

[ALSKAN RAVEN FAN]

12 minutes ago, ravensdan said:

I think Brady brees Rodgers are one group. Then you have luck Wilson Newton Palmer romo Ben joe Eli as close. Dalton bortkes and others I put in the next group. 

I think your point is spot on until both Joe and Eli get into the playoffs then I think they get even better I rank both Eli and Joe average or slightly above average during the regular season and elite in the post season.

Edited June 26, 2016 by ALSKAN RAVEN FAN

[Tiznut]

10 minutes ago, ALSKAN RAVEN FAN said:

I think your point is spot on until both Joe and Eli get into the playoffs then I think they get even better I rank both Eli and Joe average or slightly above average during the regular season and elite in the post season.

Joe is very frustrating during the regular season because we have seen what he can do during the playoffs