2016 Mini-camp update post

[JoeyFlex5]

Wallers move to TE was honestly just dumb. Barring catastrophe we won't need another TE, and as a WR he has more potential than all but 2 of our young guys and is as safe a bet to produce as anyone not named kamar or Steve, and is our absolute top special teams ace without question...

 

So yeah, throw him into a logjammed position where he doesn't even belong, have him compete for the 5th spot along with another slightly out of position but high value guy in juzsczyck, and hamstring your offense a little bit by forcing yourself to choose one or the other... Makes sense. 

 

We have sss injured, perriman injured and has never played a snap, camp is an injury waiting to happen, and then we have aiken, butler, and moore, basically a big collective shoulder shrug at wr and a loaded TE group... So of course they makes even more sense to move Waller to TE.

[rmw10]

1 minute ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Wallers move to TE was honestly just dumb. Barring catastrophe we won't need another TE, and as a WR he has more potential than all but 2 of our young guys and is as safe a bet to produce as anyone not named kamar or Steve, and is our absolute top special teams ace without question...

 

So yeah, throw him into a logjammed position where he doesn't even belong, have him compete for the 5th spot along with another slightly out of position but high value guy in juzsczyck, and hamstring your offense a little bit by forcing yourself to choose one or the other... Makes sense. 

 

We have sss injured, perriman injured and has never played a snap, camp is an injury waiting to happen, and then we have aiken, butler, and moore, basically a big collective shoulder shrug at wr and a loaded TE group... So of course they makes even more sense to move Waller to TE.

Remember that Waller was moved to TE before Watson was here, before Pitta looked like he could play again, and after Boyle was suspended.  This decision was made during the 2015 season, shortly after his move to IR.

[JoeyFlex5]

1 minute ago, rmw10 said:

Remember that Waller was moved to TE before Watson was here, before Pitta looked like he could play again, and after Boyle was suspended.  This decision was made during the 2015 season, shortly after his move to IR.

Eh, good point. If they move him back after all these discoveries then obviously I retract my statements lol. Just looking at it currently it doesn't make sense

[rmw10]

Just now, JoeyFlex5 said:

Eh, good point. If they move him back after all these discoveries then obviously I retract my statements lol. Just looking at it currently it doesn't make sense

I'd venture to guess that not only was it a depth move at TE at the time, but also a decision that they didn't really like him at WR going forward.  There was a ton of debate pre-draft on whether he'd play WR or TE, and a lot had thought TE was his best position.  Regardless, he's still catching passes and will line up as a WR.  I think they like the idea of mismatching him as a TE more than they do a WR.

[edthehead]

I think it we start running more TE set formation, he will fit in

Gonk is what 6 6 and 270

Waller is 6 6 and what 255  (still adding weight) and can catch

the future 

maxi, crockett, nick and Waller  

Perriman and Moore deep

Camp ? and Reynolds in the slot

Aiken (I like him) but is no longer needed

due to our deep depth at the TE position.

aiken and wallace will net us a decent comp pick

no matter who our WR's are the TE group will be good,

watson and pitta are here to help coach up this young group.

 

quick edit; how could I forget and not mention MR.KENNETH DIXON

if the players produce we have a very bright future, even the line 

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by edthehead

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, rmw10 said:

I'd venture to guess that not only was it a depth move at TE at the time, but also a decision that they didn't really like him at WR going forward.  There was a ton of debate pre-draft on whether he'd play WR or TE, and a lot had thought TE was his best position.  Regardless, he's still catching passes and will line up as a WR.  I think they like the idea of mismatching him as a TE more than they do a WR.

Honestly without an injury to a TE already on the roster, I don't see how Waller makes this team.

[rmw10]

5 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Honestly without an injury to a TE already on the roster, I don't see how Waller makes this team.

ST is the key, but I mentioned above how that still makes it difficult with only so many roster spots to go around.  I am hoping for the guy because I do like him, but odds are severely stacked against him at this point.

[757RavensFan]

On 6/29/2016 at 9:18 AM, edthehead said:

I think it we start running more TE set formation, he will fit in

Gonk is what 6 6 and 270

Waller is 6 6 and what 255  (still adding weight) and can catch

the future 

maxi, crockett, nick and Waller  

Perriman and Moore deep

Camp ? and Reynolds in the slot

Aiken (I like him) but is no longer needed

due to our deep depth at the TE position.

aiken and wallace will net us a decent comp pick

no matter who our WR's are the TE group will be good,

watson and pitta are here to help coach up this young group.

 

quick edit; how could I forget and not mention MR.KENNETH DIXON

if the players produce we have a very bright future, even the line 

 

How do you say Aiken is no longer needed, when you're trying to replace him w/ a guy who can't stay healthy(Camp) and a rookie (Reynolds) who is in a position battle to make the team?

Edited June 30, 2016 by 757RavensFan

[Ravensfan23]

30 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

ST is the key, but I mentioned above how that still makes it difficult with only so many roster spots to go around.  I am hoping for the guy because I do like him, but odds are severely stacked against him at this point.

Waller falls into that category of fans valuing him more then what he's actually shown on field. This happens all over the NFL where fans think that a certain player is a sure gonner if he's exposed to the PS but the fact is other teams just don't value the guy as much. Either as a WR or a TE Waller is still a developmental player. His biggest value last year came from being a Gunner. I don't think that's too appealing to other teams for their 53rd spot. 

When given a few chances at WR he looked out of place and shift, which is probably why the decision to move him to TE was made. Now that's not to say he couldn't have developed in year 2, but he didn't look like a viable option at WR last year. He just didn't look comfortable outside and he isn't really a slot option. I was impressed with Daniel Brown on the outside then Waller and i'm not sure he can live out there.

Now fast forward to him as a TE. Waller has to now learn the position of TE and how to read coverages from that position. He has to learn how to block as a inline guy and not just put his body in front of a smaller DB in the run game. I think it's gonna take him more then one summer to learn the position but the potential will be evident. I'm not sure Waller will be that appealing as a 3rd TE to the other 52 teams right out of camp. I don't think he'll get much playing time in preseason because nobody is really set at the TE. 

I think that Waller will be a PS. He might make the initial 53 for a day or two then stashed on PS until later in the year.

[rmcjacket23]

3 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Waller falls into that category of fans valuing him more then what he's actually shown on field. This happens all over the NFL where fans think that a certain player is a sure gonner if he's exposed to the PS but the fact is other teams just don't value the guy as much. Either as a WR or a TE Waller is still a developmental player. His biggest value last year came from being a Gunner. I don't think that's too appealing to other teams for their 53rd spot. 

When given a few chances at WR he looked out of place and shift, which is probably why the decision to move him to TE was made. Now that's not to say he couldn't have developed in year 2, but he didn't look like a viable option at WR last year. He just didn't look comfortable outside and he isn't really a slot option. I was impressed with Daniel Brown on the outside then Waller and i'm not sure he can live out there.

Now fast forward to him as a TE. Waller has to now learn the position of TE and how to read coverages from that position. He has to learn how to block as a inline guy and not just put his body in front of a smaller DB in the run game. I think it's gonna take him more then one summer to learn the position but the potential will be evident. I'm not sure Waller will be that appealing as a 3rd TE to the other 52 teams right out of camp. I don't think he'll get much playing time in preseason because nobody is really set at the TE. 

I think that Waller will be a PS. He might make the initial 53 for a day or two then stashed on PS until later in the year.

Agreed. I mean at the end of the day, I think the signing of Watson should have given a pretty good indication of what they thought about Waller's long term prospects. Granted, Watson is a much better blocker so they don't necessarily do the same thing, but even if we assumed that Pitta wasn't going to play, signing Watson still makes Waller the 4th or 5th TE, competing with Nick Boyle for that role. Being 4th or 5th on the depth chart at any position is generally not a good thing for long term prognosis.

A lot  will think that if Waller goes to Waivers he will get claimed, and that's possible. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if he went unclaimed and ended up on our PS for the year. Like we already see, teams only have 53 guys on the roster, and there just aren't many rosters league-wide that I see where Waller is a gameday player right now. 

He's a project for any team, and the Ravens are the only one that can benefit from the PS designation.

[rmw10]

6 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Waller falls into that category of fans valuing him more then what he's actually shown on field. This happens all over the NFL where fans think that a certain player is a sure gonner if he's exposed to the PS but the fact is other teams just don't value the guy as much. Either as a WR or a TE Waller is still a developmental player. His biggest value last year came from being a Gunner. I don't think that's too appealing to other teams for their 53rd spot. 

When given a few chances at WR he looked out of place and shift, which is probably why the decision to move him to TE was made. Now that's not to say he couldn't have developed in year 2, but he didn't look like a viable option at WR last year. He just didn't look comfortable outside and he isn't really a slot option. I was impressed with Daniel Brown on the outside then Waller and i'm not sure he can live out there.

Now fast forward to him as a TE. Waller has to now learn the position of TE and how to read coverages from that position. He has to learn how to block as a inline guy and not just put his body in front of a smaller DB in the run game. I think it's gonna take him more then one summer to learn the position but the potential will be evident. I'm not sure Waller will be that appealing as a 3rd TE to the other 52 teams right out of camp. I don't think he'll get much playing time in preseason because nobody is really set at the TE. 

I think that Waller will be a PS. He might make the initial 53 for a day or two then stashed on PS until later in the year.

Without question.  Of course, we've yet to really see him in action as a TE yet and maybe he comes out firing in camp and preseason and makes it tough.  Right now, it's just too early to say what we have in him as it's been shorts and shells so far.  I'm in the camp of if there's a roster spot and there's no better option, then yeah, I'd have 0 problems with keeping him.  If the roster holds as it is today come final cut day, I think his chances are very slim.  The ST contributions he provided were awesome, but there are other guys that can fit into that type of role.  The PS makes total sense to me right now.  I 100% agree with your assessment as a true WR.  He didn't look all that comfortable in the role.

[rmw10]

3 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Agreed. I mean at the end of the day, I think the signing of Watson should have given a pretty good indication of what they thought about Waller's long term prospects. Granted, Watson is a much better blocker so they don't necessarily do the same thing, but even if we assumed that Pitta wasn't going to play, signing Watson still makes Waller the 4th or 5th TE, competing with Nick Boyle for that role. Being 4th or 5th on the depth chart at any position is generally not a good thing for long term prognosis.

A lot will think that if Waller goes to Waivers he will get claimed, and that's possible. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if he went unclaimed and ended up on our PS for the year. Like we already see, teams only have 53 guys on the roster, and there just aren't many rosters league-wide that I see where Waller is a gameday player right now. 

He's a project for any team, and the Ravens are the only one that can benefit from the PS designation.

That's pretty standard, it seems.  At least there's a little merit since Waller was a draft pick as opposed to some random UDFA that got a good story in minicamps and never replicated the success.

It all depends on the future prospects of said player on whether the team is willing to even risk them to waivers or not.  While I think they do like Waller, I don't think they'd lose any sleep if he did happen to be claimed.  The future is already there in Gillmore, Williams, and maybe Boyle if he can kick the suspensions.  I don't see any reason he wouldn't pass through waivers either.

[edthehead]

1 hour ago, 757RavensFan said:

How do you say Aiken is no longer needed, when you're trying to replacing him w/ a guy who can't stay healthy(Camp) and a rookie (Reynolds) who is in a position battle to make the team?

the statement was a reference to the possible future

hence the comment of comp picks,and players produce

nobody said anything about this year or next,

read please,

and again this is all based on players doing their job as expected.

did I mention reading is good as long as we understand what we read,

[rmcjacket23]

56 minutes ago, edthehead said:

the statement was a reference to the possible future

hence the comment of comp picks,and players produce

nobody said anything about this year or next,

read please,

and again this is all based on players doing their job as expected.

did I mention reading is good as long as we understand what we read,

From where I'm sitting, Aiken looks like the safest and arguably most valuable WR for the present and the future that we have on this roster.

Easily the most reliable and well-rounded of the bunch that will actually potentially be here in 2017. Too many unknowns elsewhere.

Edited June 29, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[redlobster]

When is flacco expected back to camp?

[Jacquouille]

5 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Eh, good point. If they move him back after all these discoveries then obviously I retract my statements lol. Just looking at it currently it doesn't make sense

It's apparently not that simple either, because every WR has looked impressive in camp, including Clay who's made a lot of plays, and Matthews who's got the same physical attributes compared to Waller.

On the other hand, I don't see Waller blocking any DE or OLB, so the move to TE is head scratching. Basically he'd be a pure receiving TE, so no real added value compared to Pitta and Maxx.

I liked better the Marques Colston (big slot target) comparison, but again, in that case besides our TEs we may trust Matthews who's looked good.

So no matter how you turn this around, it doesn't fit really well, ST production excepted. It pains me to admit it, but the more I look at it, the less chances for Waller I see.

[rmcjacket23]

7 minutes ago, Jacquouille said:

It's apparently not that simple either, because every WR has looked impressive in camp, including Clay who's made a lot of plays, and Matthews who's got the same physical attributes compared to Waller.

On the other hand, I don't see Waller blocking any DE or OLB, so the move to TE is head scratching. Basically he'd be a pure receiving TE, so no real added value compared to Pitta and Maxx.

I liked better the Marques Colston (big slot target) comparison, but again, in that case besides our TEs we may trust Matthews who's looked good.

So no matter how you turn this around, it doesn't fit really well, ST production excepted. It pains me to admit it, but the more I look at it, the less chances for Waller I see.

Agreed. One year isn't nearly enough for him to be a good blocking TE, nor is he likely to ever be that.

At best, he's a weaker blocking version of Jimmy Graham. A seam stretcher who's size is great in the red zone. 

Problem is... we've got a good combination of some very good TEs already, and I don't think a one dimensional TE is going to cut it. 

[757RavensFan]

2 hours ago, edthehead said:

the statement was a reference to the possible future

hence the comment of comp picks,and players produce

nobody said anything about this year or next,

read please,

and again this is all based on players doing their job as expected.

did I mention reading is good as long as we understand what we read,

wouldn't next year be the possible future?   Maybe you should understand what you're trying to convey before posting. 

[edthehead]

11 minutes ago, 757RavensFan said:

wouldn't next year be the possible future?   Maybe you should understand what you're trying to convey before posting. 

you are correct , my bad

I thought people here had a decent amount of intelligence,

anyway, thanks for pointing that out,

7216, good job

[edthehead]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

From where I'm sitting, Aiken looks like the safest and arguably most valuable WR for the present and the future that we have on this roster.

Easily the most reliable and well-rounded of the bunch that will actually potentially be here in 2017. Too many unknowns elsewhere.

I agree many variables, but he is under contract for just this year

meaning even though he had a good/great year, he was not rewarded with a long term contract

he basically received a "prove yourself again" contract

but if you notice we have many other weapons here,

meaning he may get the chance, but other people will get a shot also

next year we may offer a long term but I think it will be extremely again very extremely team friendly

I am not throwing Aiken under the bus (wife from Aiken S.C, had to plug that) I am a huge fan

just a point of thought Aiken is more of a possession WR,

we have a boatload of TE's and if they are who everybody expects them to be, LOOK OUT

may be possible he has a good year and somebody pays more,

either way I do not see him here next year, again many variables  

  

[GrimCoconut]

I think Waller could stick around because he may be that vertical TE threat we need with the TEs we have. He was also a very good gunner last year; however, the question is if he lost speed gaining weight, because this affects both of these two qualities I mentioned in him succeeding here.

[ellicottraven]

Why isn't the TC here already? 

[trevorsteadman]

13 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

I think Waller could stick around because he may be that vertical TE threat we need with the TEs we have. He was also a very good gunner last year; however, the question is if he lost speed gaining weight, because this affects both of these two qualities I mentioned in him succeeding here.

I think Waller is battling Terrance West, Dennis Pitta, and a few of the other wide receivers to make the roster. If his value is almost as high as Dennis Pitta offensively I see them taking Waller over Pitta because #1 Waller's potential is higher, #2 Waller is a better special teams player, and #3 Pitta's injury history.

I know people are praising Pitta in the offseason but Waller has had some great catches himself, he was the play of the day. We will get a better idea what will happen once pads go on. 

[rmw10]

8 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

I think Waller is battling Terrance West, Dennis Pitta, and a few of the other wide receivers to make the roster. If his value is almost as high as Dennis Pitta offensively I see them taking Waller over Pitta because #1 Waller's potential is higher, #2 Waller is a better special teams player, and #3 Pitta's injury history.

I know people are praising Pitta in the offseason but Waller has had some great catches himself, he was the play of the day. We will get a better idea what will happen once pads go on. 

Difference being that Pitta was largely running with the 1st team while Waller was with the 3rd.  Playing well is fine but you have to wait and see if that parlays into snaps with a higher team.

[trevorsteadman]

11 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Difference being that Pitta was largely running with the 1st team while Waller was with the 3rd.  Playing well is fine but you have to wait and see if that parlays into snaps with a higher team.

I understand that and that depends on how well Pitta plays. I haven't seen it first hand yet all I am basing it off of is reports. If Pitta is playing like the #1 or #2 tight end of the team then he is a lock. But if he is behind and doesn't play nearly as well as Williams, Gillmore, and Watson the question is do you go with a guy like Pitta in case of injury that provides little difference in talent or do you go with the guy who was a solid special teams player.

This also depends on Waller's development at the position. Coaches know it will take him time to catch on. I wouldn't be surprised if they went either way. If PItta is the main tight end in this offense come training camp then he will make the roster. But if he is somewhere in the middle you have to wonder if the Ravens with their special teams roots will choose the guy with less of an injury history that was a solid special teams player for them last season who just changed positions who has huge potential. 

[rmw10]

2 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

I understand that and that depends on how well Pitta plays. I haven't seen it first hand yet all I am basing it off of is reports. If Pitta is playing like the #1 or #2 tight end of the team then he is a lock. But if he is behind and doesn't play nearly as well as Williams, Gillmore, and Watson the question is do you go with a guy like Pitta in case of injury that provides little difference in talent or do you go with the guy who was a solid special teams player.

This also depends on Waller's development at the position. Coaches know it will take him time to catch on. I wouldn't be surprised if they went either way. If PItta is the main tight end in this offense come training camp then he will make the roster. But if he is somewhere in the middle you have to wonder if the Ravens with their special teams roots will choose the guy with less of an injury history that was a solid special teams player for them last season who just changed positions who has huge potential. 

If Pitta is functioning properly, I see no way he's not on the 53 come week 1.  He's always been Joe's security blanket and I doubt they want to take that away from him.  I don't disagree that I'd consider going younger, but I'm not the one making the decisions.  Although it may not necessarily be my preference to keep Pitta around, I don't see that actually being the case so long as he responds well to contact, stays healthy, and continues playing how he's reported to be playing now.

[trevorsteadman]

20 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

If Pitta is functioning properly, I see no way he's not on the 53 come week 1.  He's always been Joe's security blanket and I doubt they want to take that away from him.  I don't disagree that I'd consider going younger, but I'm not the one making the decisions.  Although it may not necessarily be my preference to keep Pitta around, I don't see that actually being the case so long as he responds well to contact, stays healthy, and continues playing how he's reported to be playing now.

I think the Ravens are the only team in the NFL that talks about their tight ends this much haha.