Harbaugh and Practice

[rmw10]

3 hours ago, Sami84 said:

sure..not intensely 6 months before a relevent game..maybe a month or so..it makes NO difference except you're not putting your players at as much risk

Are we assuming that this practice was intense? Because a player got injured? Last I checked, none of us were there. I'm not sure how any of us could ascertain that this practice was intense or a cakewalk. More baseless assumptions to promote your negativity. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

4 hours ago, Jaybirds said:

The last two years we've been more prone to injury than any other team.  Are we insisting that's just a coincidence?   Aging roster, really bad luck, etc.?   I have trouble believing that. 

Also, the 37 year old couldn't do it.  He was on the IR before the season ended.  

Was he injured during practice? 

And what about the previous 5 years? So, youre trying to tell me that for 5 years they were fine and then out of no where he decided to ramp things up? And, actually it was only last year that we were tops in injuries. The year prior there were a couple teams with just as many. And players on IR doesnt tell the whole story either.

And going into week 6 of last year, we were barely top half of the league in injures. The major complaint seems to be that we're going too hard in OTAs and training camp. So, why were there 13 teams nearly half way through the season with more injuries than us?? Oh, because it happens to every team, every year. It's just that it happened to more of our top players, so it was more noticeable.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/32for32x151021/ranking-most-banged-nfl-teams-1-32

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

4 hours ago, Jaybirds said:

Well, actually, you're sorta agreeing.  If you insist the players aren't going 100% right now.... and he's saying players shouldn't be going 100% right now..... it looks like you're on the same page.

What??? That makes no sense. If he's saying players shouldnt be going 100% bc its leading to these injuries.... and then he's saying we're not going 100% then the whole premise of the complaint is wrong.

If we're not even going 100% (which by definition is within the realm of the players physical ability, too much would, again by definition, have to be at least 100.0000001%) then you cant also say we're practicing too hard.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

3 hours ago, Jaybirds said:

Okay, that makes more sense. 

But yeah.  Pads.  We've already shown the coaches want them to go 100% already. 

Asking players to put pads on for NON-CONTACT drills isnt wanting them to go 100%.

[Jaybirds]

11 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Was he injured during practice? 

And what about the previous 5 years? So, youre trying to tell me that for 5 years they were fine and then out of no where he decided to ramp things up? And, actually it was only last year that we were tops in injuries. The year prior there were a couple teams with just as many. And players on IR doesnt tell the whole story either.

And going into week 6 of last year, we were barely top half of the league in injures. The major complaint seems to be that we're going too hard in OTAs and training camp. So, why were there 13 teams nearly half way through the season with more injuries than us?? Oh, because it happens to every team, every year. It's just that it happened to more of our top players, so it was more noticeable.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/32for32x151021/ranking-most-banged-nfl-teams-1-32

Well, actually, that does make a case for repetitive motion injuries.  If a player is going nearly 100% all through OTAs, and then the pre-season at 100% (maybe they're competing for a job), then by mid-October they're going to have more wear and tear on their bodies than players who didn't hit 100% until closer to the regular season.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Jaybirds

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

38 minutes ago, Jaybirds said:

Well, actually, that does make a case for repetitive motion injuries.  If a player is going nearly 100% all through OTAs, and then the pre-season at 100% (maybe they're competing for a job), then by mid-October they're going to have more wear and tear on their bodies than players who didn't hit 100% until closer to the regular season.

But then 13 teams had more injuries than us by then... so under your assumption here, that would say more injuries up front if you dont go hard.... more injuries on the back end if you do. The fact is still - darned if you do, darned if you dont. You're gonna lose them, do you just want to lose them early and for the whole year, or at least get half a season out of them.

And that premise is based on accepting the idea that we're going noticeably harder than all other teams in OTAs and preseason which is complete nonsense if you ask me. But even if we accept it - it still doesnt prove the point that everyone here wants it to.

[Jaybirds]

6 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

But then 13 teams had more injuries than us by then... so under your assumption here, that would say more injuries up front if you dont go hard.... more injuries on the back end if you do. The fact is still - darned if you do, darned if you dont. You're gonna lose them, do you just want to lose them early and for the whole year, or at least get half a season out of them.

And that premise is based on accepting the idea that we're going noticeably harder than all other teams in OTAs and preseason which is complete nonsense if you ask me. But even if we accept it - it still doesnt prove the point that everyone here wants it to.

The You're Going to Lose Them motto doesn't apply to the other 18 teams with less injuries though.  

I've already said (elsewhere in this thread) that there are other factors to look at:  age, schedule, field conditions.  We even got pretty far to explaining how it could be an issue with our trainers.  Similar issues could help describe the teams that were higher than us by October.  Or perhaps all 14 teams were below the expected curve; we spiked, they didn't.  It doesn't really say enough by itself.  It's interesting, but inconclusive without more info on those other teams. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Jaybirds

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

3 minutes ago, Jaybirds said:

The You're Going to Lose Them motto doesn't apply to the other 18 teams with less injuries though.  

I've already said (elsewhere in this thread) that there are other factors to look at:  age, schedule, field conditions.  We even got pretty far to explaining how it could be an issue with our trainers.  Similar issues could help describe the teams that were higher than us by October.  Or perhaps all 14 teams were below the expected curve; we spiked, they didn't.  It doesn't really say enough by itself.  It's interesting, but inconclusive without more info on those other teams. 

And without consistently falling above the mean in terms of number of injuries i dont see any way - scientific or speculative - to say its anything other than chance, and the ebbs and flows of football.

[Jaybirds]

5 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

And without consistently falling above the mean in terms of number of injuries i dont see any way - scientific or speculative - to say its anything other than chance, and the ebbs and flows of football.

You're sure we're not consistently falling above the mean?  In the franchise's history, that seems likely.  Since 2014?  I'm less sure.

No idea if a site has that kind of data.  But yeah, I'd love to know if we're a historically healthy team.  Or if franchises trend towards healthy/not healthy the same way they tend to be winning franchises or losing ones. 

[rmw10]

1 minute ago, Jaybirds said:

You're sure we're not consistently falling above the mean?  In the franchise's history, that seems likely.  Since 2014?  I'm less sure.

No idea if a site has that kind of data.  But yeah, I'd love to know if we're a historically healthy team.  Or if franchises trend towards healthy/not healthy the same way they tend to be winning franchises or losing ones. 

It'd be interesting to see, but I'm sure all of the data would be skewed.  While we've certainly had a ton of guys in IR for the past 2 years, not all of them were season enders.  Some were the typical bumps, bruises, pulls, strains that every team goes through.  They're still injuries of course, but how does it compare in the grand scheme of things?  I'd still venture to guess we've been near the top of the league for the last 2 years, but I'm not sure anything can be attributed to much more than bad luck.  If the numbers exist, I'd guess that it fluctuates wildly team to team, year to year.

[AsianRice]

So OP started accusation against Harbaugh without reading through details how players got season ending injuries? 

I drop my ankle playing basketball....it's Harbaugh's fault!...haha

what a joke....

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

52 minutes ago, Jaybirds said:

You're sure we're not consistently falling above the mean?  In the franchise's history, that seems likely.  Since 2014?  I'm less sure.

No idea if a site has that kind of data.  But yeah, I'd love to know if we're a historically healthy team.  Or if franchises trend towards healthy/not healthy the same way they tend to be winning franchises or losing ones. 

Skewing above the mean in an incredibly small sample size isnt valid or worth anything either. Sure, maybe we are above the mean since 2014. Maybe we're not. 

But even if we are, Harbs and his practice regimen has been here since 2008. So without repeatedly falling above that mean since 2008, the small sample size of the past 2 years would do nothing to support the idea that its Harbs fault or practicing too hard.... especially since, if anything, his practices have decreased in intensity since the new CBA was signed (which if anything, would argue the exact opposite. our recent injury history has coincided with notably easier practices, and far less "pads on" practices) which of course is the opposite of what some want to believe, so that type of detail is conveniently ignored.

[Jaybirds]

8 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Skewing above the mean in an incredibly small sample size isnt valid or worth anything either. Sure, maybe we are above the mean since 2014. Maybe we're not. 

But even if we are, Harbs and his practice regimen has been here since 2008. So without repeatedly falling above that mean since 2008, the small sample size of the past 2 years would do nothing to support the idea that its Harbs fault or practicing too hard.... especially since, if anything, his practices have decreased in intensity since the new CBA was signed (which if anything, would argue the exact opposite. our recent injury history has coincided with notably easier practices, and far less "pads on" practices) which of course is the opposite of what some want to believe, so that type of detail is conveniently ignored.

Well I can't "conveniently ignore" a trend I didn't know about.  So thank you for sharing that. 

I do disagree with the small sample size.  Two full season of 32 teams is 64 separate season.  53-man rosters means over 3,392 opening day players.  That's enough to get a pretty good feel for the mean if the data was available.  And I agree with starting back in 2008.  Let's see how we're trending overall, let's see if there was a change at the CBA, let's see how the past two unlucky years compare to our luck and the league's luck overall. 

But I'm disappointed to hear you don't know whether we're above or below average.  Your previous posts sounded (to me) like you did know already.  That would have been really helpful.  I guess I misunderstood. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

13 minutes ago, Jaybirds said:

Well I can't "conveniently ignore" a trend I didn't know about.  So thank you for sharing that. 

I do disagree with the small sample size.  Two full season of 32 teams is 64 separate season.  53-man rosters means over 3,392 opening day players.  That's enough to get a pretty good feel for the mean if the data was available.  And I agree with starting back in 2008.  Let's see how we're trending overall, let's see if there was a change at the CBA, let's see how the past two unlucky years compare to our luck and the league's luck overall. 

But I'm disappointed to hear you don't know whether we're above or below average.  Your previous posts sounded (to me) like you did know already.  That would have been really helpful.  I guess I misunderstood. 

No, i dont know that we were any worse injury wise over the past 2 years. I know last year we had the most players on season ending IR... but i dont think that tells the whole story. Plenty of players deal with injuries week to week... especially if the goal in analyzing the data is to determine if our practices contribute to more injuries - certainly guys nursing week to week injuries couldve been the result of practice.

And then theres the fact that we shut down guys who might have been able to return... they hit season ending IR but werent necessarily done for the season at the time... but we needed the roster spot.

And the article i posted was based on "total starts" lost.... which means theres some guessing as to who wouldve started every game, and assuming certain players lost in training camp wouldnt have earned a starting role - which means they didnt count at all toward the rankings. And then theres the fact that they attributed a full 16 missed games to anyone that was shut down for the season (for example Jordy Nelson counted 16 games toward GB, Suggs 15 for us, while someone like Eugene Monroe only counted for 3, bc there was still hope he'd return even tho he never played another game) so it's misleading and im not sure how many "missed starts" is important when determining if practice is causing injuries - - total # of players injured in any way, shape, or form would be much more important.

Theres also players that get injured while on the roster bubble, are given an injury settlement and waived. idk if they count towards the # of reported players injured for a certain team.

So theres a lot of gray area, and i dont know if anyone really tracks this stuff. 

And all i know about last year is that we had more injuries to important players/starters than any other team.... but i dont know that we necessarily had more injuries total than any other team.

[ravensdan]

9 hours ago, Sami84 said:

sure..not intensely 6 months before a relevent game..maybe a month or so..it makes NO difference except you're not putting your players at as much risk

 

This is actually 100% false. You should be working hardest further away from what you are training for and building up to your maximum conditioning. You should be only maintains during the year and closer to the games. I don't think you'll find anyone training for any athletic endeavor that would back up your statement. 

[757RavensFan]

7 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Maybe time to switch up the training staff.  While we are at it, can we change up our WR scouts...please

They just brought in Saunders  as the Ravens’ director of performance and recovery.  Next!

http://www.cecildaily.com/sports/pros/article_49305d04-2339-59b2-9c7a-3a7b43b0e513.html

 

Quote

Saunders listed hamstring and hip-flexor pulls as common nuisance injuries. ACL tears, like the one that ended quarterback Joe Flacco’s 2015 season, are examples of unpreventable freak injuries.

 

Edited June 13, 2016 by 757RavensFan

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

14 minutes ago, ravensdan said:

 

This is actually 100% false. You should be working hardest further away from what you are training for and building up to your maximum conditioning. You should be only maintains during the year and closer to the games. I don't think you'll find anyone training for any athletic endeavor that would back up your statement. 

Spot on. Whether it was soccer, football, basketball or track we always followed this. Track is probably the clearest example though.

We went hard in the offseason upping our aerobic capacity as much as possible... and then once reached we would work on repeating our best as much as possible, so we could work at that max capacity as long as possible. But then, you have to at a point before you need to perform cycle down to allow your body to recover and perform at its peak on the competition day. Leading up to that its mainly light work and stretching.

Cycle up, maintain peak, cycle down, compete.

Cycling up should be working on their own during the offseason, hitting and maintaining their peak should be OTAs and camp, cycling down should happen those last couple weeks before the start of the regular season... then go compete. And then you'll have a small microcosm of that same pattern during each week of the regular season... rest after the competition, practice hard the first and/or second day of the week, but then a day or 2 before the game you take it easy.

[GrimCoconut]

None of us are professional coaches nor have we won a professional game, let alone playoff games, the AFCCG, or the Super Bowl. I'll defer to Harbaugh on what it takes to get the team ready to win. 

[K-Dog]

1 hour ago, GrimCoconut said:

None of us are professional coaches nor have we won a professional game, let alone playoff games, the AFCCG, or the Super Bowl. I'll defer to Harbaugh on what it takes to get the team ready to win. 

So simple,,,

so brilliant. 

Eludes so many .....

[CalvinSmoke]

People get hurt... It happens. Some years more than others. And we've only lost one player. Sheesh 

[CalvinSmoke]

8 hours ago, ravensdan said:

 

This is actually 100% false. You should be working hardest further away from what you are training for and building up to your maximum conditioning. You should be only maintains during the year and closer to the games. I don't think you'll find anyone training for any athletic endeavor that would back up your statement. 

You suddenly go hard right before live action and everyone will get hurt too much, too sudden without proper preparation 

[usmccharles]

4 hours ago, CalvinSmoke said:

You suddenly go hard right before live action and everyone will get hurt too much, too sudden without proper preparation 

You need to stop speaking logic.  Its not good for the sheeple

[Jacquouille]

Just saying, but OTAs are mandatory, players aren't forced to practice if they don't like it.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Hey guys, this from that article on Perriman by that doctor... and i quote:

"MMMD 1: Offseason injuries piling up

I previously indicated that approximately half of NFL teams will suffer a significant/season-ending injury before OTAs and minicamps are done. Add three ACL tears to the list of teams already suffering injury. Besides Perriman, Saints pass-rusher Hau’oli Kikaha (3^rd time) and Patriots TE Michael Williams both tore ACLs. We are shy of 50% of teams losing players (and I hope it stays that way) but with another week and many minicamps to go, it seems inevitable that history will repeat itself."

Wait, so he predicted that half the NFL teams will sustain major injures before training camp even starts, and its coming true?? And this is a pattern he has noted as occurring nearly every offseason?? 

But, but, but.... i thought it was just Harbaugh and his super duper hard practices!?! Oh I know. Harbaugh is brainwashing all the other coaches and forcing them to practice their guys as hard as he does as an evil ploy to injure the other teams best players... AND he's been doing this for years and hasnt been caught yet!!

Edited June 14, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[trevorsteadman]

46 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Hey guys, this from that article on Perriman by that doctor... and i quote:

"MMMD 1: Offseason injuries piling up

I previously indicated that approximately half of NFL teams will suffer a significant/season-ending injury before OTAs and minicamps are done. Add three ACL tears to the list of teams already suffering injury. Besides Perriman, Saints pass-rusher Hau’oli Kikaha (3^rd time) and Patriots TE Michael Williams both tore ACLs. We are shy of 50% of teams losing players (and I hope it stays that way) but with another week and many minicamps to go, it seems inevitable that history will repeat itself."

Wait, so he predicted that half the NFL teams will sustain major injures before training camp even starts, and its coming true?? And this is a pattern he has noted as occurring nearly every offseason?? 

But, but, but.... i thought it was just Harbaugh and his super duper hard practices!?! Oh I know. Harbaugh is brainwashing all the other coaches and forcing them to practice their guys as hard as he does as an evil ploy to injure the other teams best players... AND he's been doing this for years and hasnt been caught yet!!

I really feel like a lot of people here think that John Harbaugh is playing Donkey Kong and throwing banana peels below players feet to intentionally get them hurt. 

[Jaybirds]

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Hey guys, this from that article on Perriman by that doctor... and i quote:

"MMMD 1: Offseason injuries piling up

I previously indicated that approximately half of NFL teams will suffer a significant/season-ending injury before OTAs and minicamps are done. Add three ACL tears to the list of teams already suffering injury. Besides Perriman, Saints pass-rusher Hau’oli Kikaha (3^rd time) and Patriots TE Michael Williams both tore ACLs. We are shy of 50% of teams losing players (and I hope it stays that way) but with another week and many minicamps to go, it seems inevitable that history will repeat itself."

Wait, so he predicted that half the NFL teams will sustain major injures before training camp even starts, and its coming true?? And this is a pattern he has noted as occurring nearly every offseason?? 

But, but, but.... i thought it was just Harbaugh and his super duper hard practices!?! Oh I know. Harbaugh is brainwashing all the other coaches and forcing them to practice their guys as hard as he does as an evil ploy to injure the other teams best players... AND he's been doing this for years and hasnt been caught yet!!

This wasn't our first one though.   Dixon hasn't practiced, and Kaufusi got hurt (coincidence that all three are fairly new?).    So I'd be curious to see what the data looks like for teams with more than 1, like 2 or 3.   Probably a lot less than half. 

[berad]

18 minutes ago, Jaybirds said:

This wasn't our first one though.   Dixon hasn't practiced, and Kaufusi got hurt (coincidence that all three are fairly new?).    So I'd be curious to see what the data looks like for teams with more than 1, like 2 or 3.   Probably a lot less than half. 

Dixon pulled his hamstring at his Pro Day and has since returned to practice.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

30 minutes ago, Jaybirds said:

This wasn't our first one though.   Dixon hasn't practiced, and Kaufusi got hurt (coincidence that all three are fairly new?).    So I'd be curious to see what the data looks like for teams with more than 1, like 2 or 3.   Probably a lot less than half. 

Dixon was injured at his pro day. Kaufusi tweaked his back (dont know how you attribute that to "going too hard" or however you phrase it)... 

And this is only counting MAJOR injures... ACL tears, achilles tears... season ending type stuff. 100% of NFL teams have players out nursing injuries.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

34 minutes ago, Jaybirds said:

This wasn't our first one though.   Dixon hasn't practiced, and Kaufusi got hurt (coincidence that all three are fairly new?).    So I'd be curious to see what the data looks like for teams with more than 1, like 2 or 3.   Probably a lot less than half. 

Ok, just looked it up.

23/32 NFL teams have 3 or more reported injuries. Of those, 7 have just 3... most have 4+. 

Every team has at least one person out due to injury.

EDIT:

Baltimore has one of the highest numbers... but included in our list are Flacco, Suggs, Steve Smith, Dennis Pitta, Will Davis, Crockett Gillmore, Matt Elam, and Nick Boyle. All of those are from last year, and most have returned to the field.

Kaufusi and Perriman are the only reported, injury non-participants from this offseason.... which puts us as 1 of 10 teams with the fewest injuries.

 

The facts dont fit the narrative.

Edited June 14, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[757RavensFan]

42 minutes ago, Jaybirds said:

This wasn't our first one though.   Dixon hasn't practiced, and Kaufusi got hurt (coincidence that all three are fairly new?).    So I'd be curious to see what the data looks like for teams with more than 1, like 2 or 3.   Probably a lot less than half. 

We also lost a vet CB for the season w/ a ruptured Achilles. Can't remember his name.