[News] Late For Work 5/26: Three Reasons Why Joe Flacco Will Throw For 4,000 Yards

[WNC-Raven]

  4 hours ago, WNC-Raven said:

Maybe the best way to look at this is based on opposing team perception before a game. I worry more before a game against the Brady, Rodgers, Wilson games than I ever would against someone like Luck or Rivers. I never understood why people view Rivers as anything but mediocre. Have you ever worried before playing the Chargers? Me either.

Lmao.  Really?  You don't think Rivers is a good qb?  Rivers deserves more credit than he currently gets.  Look at all his "weapons."  His OL situation is basically our CB situation on a yearly basis. 

Yes really, I think Rivers is a good QB but that's about it. When I look at a future schedule and see NE, PIT, DEN, GB, ect... I put those in a possible loss column. I may see SD as a tough game but not a loss. It is only my opinion, doesn't matter to me if you agree or not. I think we have basically split most of our games with them. I understand that everyone now a days likes to use stats for EVERYTHING but I feel they are more of a tool used by people to make their point seem valid after the fact. And that's fine for some people

[Kinda_Dante]

1 minute ago, WNC-Raven said:

Yes really, I think Rivers is a good QB but that's about it. When I look at a future schedule and see NE, PIT, DEN, GB, ect... I put those in a possible loss column. I may see SD as a tough game but not a loss. It is only my opinion, doesn't matter to me if you agree or not. I think we have basically split most of our games with them. I understand that everyone now a days likes to use stats for EVERYTHING but I feel they are more of a tool used by people to make their point seem valid after the fact. And that's fine for some people

SO you're scared Paxton Lynch or Mark Sanchez?

[mearzunkies]

Butt fumble LOL

[RavensBaltimore]

I wouldn't bet on Joe getting 4K this year due to we always believing he will get 4K every season like "this is the year this is the year" but it never pan out LOL but l hope he get's it this year if not win football games. :-)

He was on pace for about 4,500 last year, and that was with an injury depleted receiving corps that wasn't great to begin with.

[RavensBaltimore]

  8 hours ago, birdseye said:

What playoffs were you watching? Joe has the 7th highest playoff QB rating in history, 25 TD's vs 10 INT's and propelled an old and declining defense to a SB title. Dont get me wrong Flacco does lay some eggs almost every year in the regular season, but there's a reason people inside and out the league associate QB play to the success of a team, its not just a random statistical phenomenon.

Yeah team stats dont dont necessarily indicate a players contribution, but that doesn't prove that individual stats do. How does Joe get passing yards if his line doesn't block, his receivers cant get open, and our running game cant threaten them enough to stop playing nickel or dime defense? This is a cyclical argument because the fact is there are no individual stats in football as it is the ultimate team game.

Lastly, Tebow is a winner? that's why he sits behind a desk now and couldn't get a second contract right?

You do realize that Joe played in playoff games BEFORE 2012 correct? Go back and look at some of his earlier one's. Go back and look at what he did in his rookie season playoff performances (well below average by any possible standard). He gets credit for 2 wins that year.  I don't even care if you look at the stats... just watch the games. He's as forgettable as anybody on the field in those games.

Go look at his first playoff game in the 09 season in Foxboro, when the Ravens beat the Patriots 33-14. Go look at what Joe did in that game. Literally nobody on this planet could argue he positively contributed to that victory. Again... given credit for a win for that.

For 30% of Joe Flacco's postseason victories, AT BEST, you could argue he was a replacement level QB, meaning there were many, many backups in the league that could have done exactly what he did and had the exact same outcome. 

Now, since about late 2010, he's been great in the postseason. No debating that. But he hasn't always been great in the postseason. There's just no evidence to support that. Last five years... absolutely. One of the best postseason QBs probably in history in the last five years. 

And yes, Tebow is a "winner", because everywhere he plays, his team wins. He won a ton in college, and he won a large amount of the games he started in the NFL. But at least you made my point for me... "winning" doesn't get you a second contract. Production does. NFL teams don't pay for winners. If they did, they wouldn't hand out $15M a year contracts to DTs and pass rushers who have never won anything. They do that annually.

How many wins does Tebow have as a starter? About 8 or 9? Calling someone like that a "winner" is a complete joke. Even when Flacco was a rookie, he led the team on a game winning drive, on the road, against one of the best defenses in the league and the top seed in the AFC. He wasn't great early in his career in the postseason, but he knew how to finish games and WIN. The Ravens certainly weren't winning in the postseason without him, and since entering his prime, he has been consistently great in the postseason. Tebow and Mark Sanchez won in the postseason early in their careers, but they have never done it consistently or without a great defense. Players absolutely do get paid to win consistently. Otherwise, Flacco would not be making well over $20mil/year.

[riseNConquer81]

OMG with the 4000 yards again....what an overrated milestone.
we dont play like that. If it never happens i wont give a damn. No one else should either.
we win. thats the important part.

[riseNConquer81]

8 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

You do realize that Joe played in playoff games BEFORE 2012 correct? Go back and look at some of his earlier one's. Go back and look at what he did in his rookie season playoff performances (well below average by any possible standard). He gets credit for 2 wins that year.  I don't even care if you look at the stats... just watch the games. He's as forgettable as anybody on the field in those games.

Go look at his first playoff game in the 09 season in Foxboro, when the Ravens beat the Patriots 33-14. Go look at what Joe did in that game. Literally nobody on this planet could argue he positively contributed to that victory. Again... given credit for a win for that.

For 30% of Joe Flacco's postseason victories, AT BEST, you could argue he was a replacement level QB, meaning there were many, many backups in the league that could have done exactly what he did and had the exact same outcome. 

Now, since about late 2010, he's been great in the postseason. No debating that. But he hasn't always been great in the postseason. There's just no evidence to support that. Last five years... absolutely. One of the best postseason QBs probably in history in the last five years. 

And yes, Tebow is a "winner", because everywhere he plays, his team wins. He won a ton in college, and he won a large amount of the games he started in the NFL. But at least you made my point for me... "winning" doesn't get you a second contract. Production does. NFL teams don't pay for winners. If they did, they wouldn't hand out $15M a year contracts to DTs and pass rushers who have never won anything. They do that annually.

2 things:
1) Joe couldnt even walk in that game. 
2) WHY are you talking about 2009? 

what importance could anything that happened in Joe's second season possibly have on any conversation that holds any remote relevance?
WHAT exactly are yall talking about? and again, why?

This sounds like an argument for the sake of argument. 

[Wisdom]

Talk is cheap.  Show me!!!!

[thegooddoc456]

The most likely he'll throw for 4K is if we stink and have to play from behind in most games...then he'll air it out as we lose.

[thegooddoc456]

The most likely he'll throw for 4K is if we stink and have to play from behind in most games...then he'll air it out as we lose.

*reason*

[hen826957]

  10 hours ago, hen826957 said:

I wouldn't bet on Joe getting 4K this year due to we always believing he will get 4K every season like "this is the year this is the year" but it never pan out LOL but l hope he get's it this year if not win football games. :-)

He was on pace for about 4,500 last year, and that was with an injury depleted receiving corps that wasn't great to begin with.

I hope he passes 4,000 years we'll see ? But Joe always disappoint us. He always been so close to reach 4,000. LOL

[hen826957]

  10 hours ago, hen826957 said:

I wouldn't bet on Joe getting 4K this year due to we always believing he will get 4K every season like "this is the year this is the year" but it never pan out LOL but l hope he get's it this year if not win football games. :-)

As good a year as any. Probably the best pass catching class he's ever had (at least on paper), looking to be a potentially very good offensive line when healthy, and a second year with an OC who likes to throw.

I suppose his injury recovery could affect this, but the resources appear to be there.

Maybe. ?

[rmcjacket23]

12 hours ago, riseNConquer81 said:

2 things:
1) Joe couldnt even walk in that game. 
2) WHY are you talking about 2009? 

what importance could anything that happened in Joe's second season possibly have on any conversation that holds any remote relevance?
WHAT exactly are yall talking about? and again, why?

This sounds like an argument for the sake of argument. 

Because we are talking about giving credit to QBs for wins. ALL wins. Not just some wins or most recent wins. ALL wins.

So when we talk about an individual player winning, we often completely lose sight of just how relevant that player was to his TEAM winning that game. Hence, me pointing out 2009 as an example of a game where we give Joe Flacco individually credit for winning, despite the fact that he essentially made no positive contribution whatsoever to that game.

[rmcjacket23]

12 hours ago, RavensBaltimore said:

How many wins does Tebow have as a starter? About 8 or 9? Calling someone like that a "winner" is a complete joke. Even when Flacco was a rookie, he led the team on a game winning drive, on the road, against one of the best defenses in the league and the top seed in the AFC. He wasn't great early in his career in the postseason, but he knew how to finish games and WIN. The Ravens certainly weren't winning in the postseason without him, and since entering his prime, he has been consistently great in the postseason. Tebow and Mark Sanchez won in the postseason early in their careers, but they have never done it consistently or without a great defense. Players absolutely do get paid to win consistently. Otherwise, Flacco would not be making well over $20mil/year.

But now you're just trying to argue over an inherently subjective topic of "what is winning". There's no right or wrong answer there. There's perception and interpretation.

I'm not sure what the "they weren't winning in the postseason without him" reference is, because the TEAMS themselves weren't the same either. We weren't winning in the postseason without Harbaugh either, or any number of players we added during that time. Maybe that's the reason we weren't winning.

That's not why Joe gets paid $20M. Not really close to it either. Supply and demand is always the most prevalent reason for prices of players, but beyond that, much of it was factored into his quality postseason production for the years before that (mostly 2011-2012) and the anticipation if him continuing to improve. That production doesn't necessarily have to translate into his team winning, it just so happens that it did. If Joe won a SB in 2012 but was very pedestrian, do we really think he gets $20M a year? No, he probably gets $18M a year, which is what it cost to get a franchise QB, regardless of how good they are. 

No shortage of QBs (or other positions frankly) with very high valued contracts that haven't consistently won. Cam Newton signed his almost $20M a year deal ($60M guaranteed) in 2015, with a regular season record of 30-31-1 with one career playoff victory. 

Heck, you can even look at the most recent contracts for Eli and Rivers. Eli signed a $20M a year deal in 2015, despite the fact that he hadn't made the playoffs for three straight years and for 5 of the last 6 years. Is that "consistently winning"? Philip Rivers... not much difference. $20M contract in 2015... one playoff appearance and one playoff win in the previous five years before that deal. Is that "consistently winning"?

Edited May 27, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[EdTheMythicalOne]

I like how Le'Veon Bell thinks all the other teams in his division are dirty, but leaves out one of the dirtiest teams in the game...the one he plays for. Yeah, that's right, it is every other team in the game that is dirty, but the one you play for is full of choir boys.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

  21 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  21 hours ago, The Mom Gene said:

Not really....  Again, my post said playoffs and SB....  Yes, guys can win, but you have MANY that can't win when it matters.  Joe excels at that point.  It's my opinion...  It's not wrong..  It's just mine. 

OK, but there really are a lot of guys who win when it matters.

Brady, Flacco, Roethlisberger, Manning's, Brees, Rodgers, Wilson.

That's 25% of last years starting QBs who have all hoisted Lombardi's and have had previous success in the postseason.

And THEN, you start looking at other successful postseason QBs who haven't won a SB, like Rivers and Luck. Heck, even Kaepernick has four postseason wins. 

You're looking at 8-10 QBs in this league right now who have proven they can win consistently in the postseason. And that's just QBs... that's not even including every other position on the field.

Hence why this notion of being a "winner" isn't nearly as rare as people make it out to be.

Maybe the best way to look at this is based on opposing team perception before a game. I worry more before a game against the Brady, Rodgers, Wilson games than I ever would against someone like Luck or Rivers. I never understood why people view Rivers as anything but mediocre. Have you ever worried before playing the Chargers? Me either.

The only time I worried about playing the Chargers is when they had LDT.

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

The only time I worried about playing the Chargers is when they had LDT.

Probably not smart on your part. They've been playing better against us since he left.

Granted, part of that's because our defense hasn't been very good the last few years, but Rivers has had no problem carving us up recently.

[usmccharles]

23 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

The only time I worried about playing the Chargers is when they had LDT.

Rivers torches us everytime.... Since 07 we are 3-3 with the Chargers. 

Edited May 27, 2016 by usmccharles

[redrum52]

32 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Rivers torches us everytime.... Since 07 we are 3-3 with the Chargers. 

I can't remember a time he's had a bad game against us, whether we've had a good or bad defense.  Also, one of those is a miracle win, with the 4th and 29 play.

[usmccharles]

33 minutes ago, redrum52 said:

I can't remember a time he's had a bad game against us, whether we've had a good or bad defense.  Also, one of those is a miracle win, with the 4th and 29 play.

Win is a Win

didn't two years ago the come back like 17 points down to beat us?

[The Mom Gene]

1 minute ago, usmccharles said:

Win is a Win

didn't two years ago the come back like 17 points down to beat us?

I think so.  It was 2012 that we got that 4th and 29 which put us in the playoffs.  Had we not won that game, we'd have not gone to the playoffs, and won, the Super Bowl.

[redrum52]

2 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Win is a Win

didn't two years ago the come back like 17 points down to beat us?

I don't like to speak on the 14 season...  Everyone knew we were losing that game when we didn't get the td.

[Edgar]

On 5/26/2016 at 0:09 PM, RRRRRavens said:

This sounds like a fun discussion to dig into. Let's start with Flacco and Kaepernick re Super Bowl records. I contend that the difference in their SB records, in fact a complete reversal of same, is one great (maybe illegal) defensive play by Jimmy Smith in the endzone near the end of the game. If Jimmy doesn't make that play SF scores and ultimately wins the SB.

https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=BpA2nB1i_uY

Have to call foul on this and dispell this myth. Watch the above clip and you'll notice Jimmy played it great.

Secondly, should the niners have scored, there would have been enough time for the Ravens to answer(in theory).

A bit of a pet peeve of mine that the popular narrative seems to have become, " 49ers came within one play of WINNING the super bowl. It would be more accurate to say that they took the lead.

 

[EdTheMythicalOne]

On 5/27/2016 at 9:02 AM, rmcjacket23 said:

Probably not smart on your part. They've been playing better against us since he left.

Granted, part of that's because our defense hasn't been very good the last few years, but Rivers has had no problem carving us up recently.

How could I be "not smart" about this? The last time the Chargers had double digit wins and was a powerhouse of their division was when they had Tomlinson and they were clearly a much better team with him than since his departure. The Chargers are 2-2 against the Ravens post Tomlinson era. Sure they are 1-3 against the Ravens with Tomlinson, but Gates and Rivers were still in their prime during those years. They were a much scarier team then than they are now.

You admitted that our defense has been horrible recently. Rivers passed for 290 yards against this team last year before the secondary got sorted out. You know who threw for more yards against that defense than him? Derek Carr (351), Andy Dalton (383), JOSH MCCOWN (457), Colin "lost my job to Blaine Gabbert" Kaepernick (340), and Russel Wilson (292, but with 5TD's). So, there were a number of Qb's that had no problems carving up our defense recently.

The question was when was I WORRIED about playing the Chargers. I was worried when they had Tomlinson, Rivers, and Gates. They also had a pretty fierce defense in those days as well.

[rmcjacket23]

43 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

How could I be "not smart" about this? The last time the Chargers had double digit wins and was a powerhouse of their division was when they had Tomlinson and they were clearly a much better team with him than since his departure. The Chargers are 2-2 against the Ravens post Tomlinson era. Sure they are 1-3 against the Ravens with Tomlinson, but Gates and Rivers were still in their prime during those years. They were a much scarier team then than they are now.

You admitted that our defense has been horrible recently. Rivers passed for 290 yards against this team last year before the secondary got sorted out. You know who threw for more yards against that defense than him? Derek Carr (351), Andy Dalton (383), JOSH MCCOWN (457), Colin "lost my job to Blaine Gabbert" Kaepernick (340), and Russel Wilson (292, but with 5TD's). So, there were a number of Qb's that had no problems carving up our defense recently.

The question was when was I WORRIED about playing the Chargers. I was worried when they had Tomlinson, Rivers, and Gates. They also had a pretty fierce defense in those days as well.

Well, this is more bordered on the premise that you should really be worried about playing EVERY team at this point, because we haven't earned the right in the last three seasons to take any team for granted or "not be worried" about them, including the Chargers.

Rivers is one of the better QBs in the league, and when he's playing poor defenses like we've had, he certainly warrants some concern from fans. Whether you give him concern or not frankly doesn't matter that much, because the team does.

Perhaps more concerning than the yardage given up is the 6 TD passes in the last two games against the Ravens. If that doesn't demand concern, kind of hard to see what does.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

22 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Well, this is more bordered on the premise that you should really be worried about playing EVERY team at this point, because we haven't earned the right in the last three seasons to take any team for granted or "not be worried" about them, including the Chargers.

Rivers is one of the better QBs in the league, and when he's playing poor defenses like we've had, he certainly warrants some concern from fans. Whether you give him concern or not frankly doesn't matter that much, because the team does.

Perhaps more concerning than the yardage given up is the 6 TD passes in the last two games against the Ravens. If that doesn't demand concern, kind of hard to see what does.

Any given Sunday, I get that. Yeah, I am always a bit worrisome whenever you play any team. But some teams cause you to worry more than others. The Pittsburgh games always make me worry more than most. Now that Cincinnati has emerged, they worry me more too. But, I don't worry as much about playing the Browns. That's what I am talking about.

I discount the horrid recent success of teams torching us on the passing end of the spectrum due to a completely decimated secondary that gave up stupid plays due to blown coverage thanks to the injuries to most of the starting unit over the past couple of years.

You can't sit there and tell me that when the Chargers were rolling back in the day with LDT, Gates, Rivers, and had their defense in order that they didn't worry you. The only reason why we did so well against them back then is because our defense was annually one of the best in the game at the time.

Again, I know it is splitting hairs, but there is a difference between concern and worry. I am concerned about the Ravens playing any team in the NFL. I am worried about them playing a select few.

[Ravensfan23]

I believe 4,000+ is a given for Flacco as long as he's healthy.

1. Flacco finally has a OC who knows how to maximize his weapons in the passing game

2. Flacco is finally surrounded by a plethora of talent in the passing game

3. Speed speed speed. This offense has a ton of speed to open up the field for big plays and for the RAC guys. I expect to see high ypc numbers.

But with all that said, the 4,000 yard total isn't really that important, neither is the elite label. I just want to see Flacco get back to making great decisions with the football in his hands and no longer feel the need to press. Just deliver accurate passes and allow your talent to do it's job. I think this will be one of the most explosive and productive offenses in Ravens history which isn't saying much but it will be. I'd rather see Flacco finally break that 2.:0.2 TD:Ratio. I want to see Flacco finally throw for 30+ TDs with 8-10 Ints.  

I've been screaming for the Ravens to hand the keys over to Flacco and get away from that establish the run first type of offense. Spread people out and throw the ball around the field but be smart enough to run the ball down peoples throats when you can or need to. I think Trestman is the OC to finally allow Flacco to take this offense to the next level. 

[elemento]

On 26/05/2016 at 6:42 PM, WNC-Raven said:

Yes really, I think Rivers is a good QB but that's about it. When I look at a future schedule and see NE, PIT, DEN, GB, ect... I put those in a possible loss column. I may see SD as a tough game but not a loss. It is only my opinion, doesn't matter to me if you agree or not. I think we have basically split most of our games with them. I understand that everyone now a days likes to use stats for EVERYTHING but I feel they are more of a tool used by people to make their point seem valid after the fact. And that's fine for some people

Ravens has never feared NE. Ravens beat PIT last season with a 3rd string QB. Denver has no QB and GB is pretty beatable even with Rodgers. Honestly, Cincy has given us way more problems than all those teams mentioned. 

[Purple Dawg 96]

Joe can get 4000 yds easy but the Ravens have to lose the "we must run to win" mentally! The Super Bowl against the 49ers Joe slung that rock so much they turned off the power! Or was that too much like rite?! Stop holding him back or it back to fundamental football, run on 1st and 2nd pass on 3rd and punt! SMH

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, Purple Dawg 96 said:

Joe can get 4000 yds easy but the Ravens have to lose the "we must run to win" mentally! The Super Bowl against the 49ers Joe slung that rock so much they turned off the power! Or was that too much like rite?! Stop holding him back or it back to fundamental football, run on 1st and 2nd pass on 3rd and punt! SMH

We ran it the exact same number of times as we threw it in the SB. 33 pass attempts doesn't categorize as "slinging it" by any NFL standards. We threw it more on a per game average in 2013, 2014, and 2015 than we did in that SB or in that SB season.