[News] Late For Work 5/26: Three Reasons Why Joe Flacco Will Throw For 4,000 Yards

[BR News]

While Dennis Pitta and Breshad Perriman will get the most attention, there are several other under-the-radar players that need a big summer as OTAs begin. Plus, the Ravens should know the NFL’s ruling soon, and an interesting battle of the birds.

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[Vip]

Flacco... fantasy sleeper this year

[RavensDieHard21]

4,000 yards is dandy and all, but what really matters is TD/Interception ratio and W's, as long as Joe Cool has the ice in his veins and utilizes all these weapons, I could see a 25-30 TD season, with less than 15 picks coming with 10 wins.

[mendii]

Can we put Boyle on the P-Squad if he is suspended? If not I don't think there's any way we can keep him around, these roster spots are too tightly contested to reserve one for a guy who would be our no.5 TE even if he was here right now.

[redrum52]

Not for nothing... but 4k yards really isn't much of an accomplishment.  If he misses it again and we make a deep run, who really cares?  Also, like some else said, if he has a good td to int ratio, won't matter all that much to me.  How about the team as a whole shows some damn consistency for once, throughout the season.

[rmcjacket23]

18 minutes ago, mendii said:

Can we put Boyle on the P-Squad if he is suspended? If not I don't think there's any way we can keep him around, these roster spots are too tightly contested to reserve one for a guy who would be our no.5 TE even if he was here right now.

Suspended players don't count against the 53 man roster. 

And no, he can't go on the PS once he comes off suspension, so we would need to make a roster decision then.

[bioLarzen]

1 minute ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Suspended players don't count against the 53 man roster. 

And no, he can't go on the PS once he comes off suspension, so we would need to make a roster decision then.

To be precise: Boyle can't be placed DIRECTLY on the PS. First he has to be cut, go through the waiver wire (or clear waivers) "intact", and only then, when he is a true free agent and still available, can he be signed back to the PS.

(I know you know, just though it's worth to go into details for the others.)

[bioLarzen]

41 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

4,000 yards is dandy and all, but what really matters is TD/Interception ratio and W's, as long as Joe Cool has the ice in his veins and utilizes all these weapons, I could see a 25-30 TD season, with less than 15 picks coming with 10 wins.

Yep, the number of passing yards in itself, is not necessarily indicative of success - last season, for example, Drew Brees and Philip Rivers were the two top guys in passing yards - and neither made the playoff...

[krnraven]

Enough with the Elite label. Joe has not even reached 4K yards and his stats have been mediocre the last few years. There are Qbs throwing for 5K yards. Is he a good qb? Yes. Elite? Not right now.

[rmcjacket23]

7 minutes ago, krnraven said:

Enough with the Elite label. Joe has not even reached 4K yards and his stats have been mediocre the last few years. There are Qbs throwing for 5K yards. Is he a good qb? Yes. Elite? Not right now.

Yardage doesn't matter. Its a stat that doesn't translate into winning.

Arguing about literally anybody being "elite" is a terrible waste of time. There's no right or wrong answer.

[The Mom Gene]

5 minutes ago, krnraven said:

Enough with the Elite label. Joe has not even reached 4K yards and his stats have been mediocre the last few years. There are Qbs throwing for 5K yards. Is he a good qb? Yes. Elite? Not right now.

I still maintain it is NOT about stats.  You can throw all day long, but in the end if you don't put up enough points to win, and if the defense allows too many yards by the other team...  You're not a "winner".  Joe is a winner.  It's about wins, and accomplishments (Playoffs SB wins, etc.).  The guy outplays Brady every time they're on the field together.  It's about him, yes, but it's about how your team supports you too.  We have a running game.  When you have a game plan like we do, and lack the big name receivers, it's difficult to accomplishment.  And to me???  It looks like they want to get him that stat this year of 4000 yards.

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, The Mom Gene said:

I still maintain it is NOT about stats.  You can throw all day long, but in the end if you don't put up enough points to win, and if the defense allows too many yards by the other team...  You're not a "winner".  Joe is a winner.  It's about wins, and accomplishments (Playoffs SB wins, etc.).  The guy outplays Brady every time they're on the field together.  It's about him, yes, but it's about how your team supports you too.  We have a running game.  When you have a game plan like we do, and lack the big name receivers, it's difficult to accomplishment.  And to me???  It looks like they want to get him that stat this year of 4000 yards.

Its a combination of both. You can be a "winner" and have done nothing for your team to contribute to that win. We've seen Joe do that in the playoffs (against Brady no less). That's the problem with applying team stats to individual players... it in no way attempts to indicate what contribution that player made to that win. 

Enter stats... one method that people can identify how a player contributes to a win. 

Why do you think QB is literally the only position where people care about whether the guy is a "winner" or not? 

And Tim Tebow is a "winner"...

[The Mom Gene]

Because winning matters....  And notice I said  "  It's about him, yes, but it's about how your team supports you too.  "

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, The Mom Gene said:

Because winning matters....  And notice I said  "  It's about him, yes, but it's about how your team supports you too.  "

Yes, that would be a "duh" statement. The problem is when people ignore stats and focus on wins when evaluating an individual player.

Pretty much no possible way you can accurately assess an individual player based on W/L record. Guys who "win" are a dime a dozen frankly. You got probably a dozen of those guys at every position across the board.

[The Mom Gene]

Just now, rmcjacket23 said:

Yes, that would be a "duh" statement. The problem is when people ignore stats and focus on wins when evaluating an individual player.

Pretty much no possible way you can accurately assess an individual player based on W/L record. Guys who "win" are a dime a dozen frankly. You got probably a dozen of those guys at every position across the board.

Not really....  Again, my post said playoffs and SB....  Yes, guys can win, but you have MANY that can't win when it matters.  Joe excels at that point.  It's my opinion...  It's not wrong..  It's just mine. 

[MiamiRaven55]

24 minutes ago, krnraven said:

Enough with the Elite label. Joe has not even reached 4K yards and his stats have been mediocre the last few years. There are Qbs throwing for 5K yards. Is he a good qb? Yes. Elite? Not right now.

Agreed.

[The Mom Gene]

2 minutes ago, MiamiRaven55 said:

Agreed.

And you have QB's who have thrown for 5k yards and haven't won a playoff game.  Or, maybe 1.

[birdseye]

  8 minutes ago, The Mom Gene said:

I still maintain it is NOT about stats.  You can throw all day long, but in the end if you don't put up enough points to win, and if the defense allows too many yards by the other team...  You're not a "winner".  Joe is a winner.  It's about wins, and accomplishments (Playoffs SB wins, etc.).  The guy outplays Brady every time they're on the field together.  It's about him, yes, but it's about how your team supports you too.  We have a running game.  When you have a game plan like we do, and lack the big name receivers, it's difficult to accomplishment.  And to me???  It looks like they want to get him that stat this year of 4000 yards.

Its a combination of both. You can be a "winner" and have done nothing for your team to contribute to that win. We've seen Joe do that in the playoffs (against Brady no less). That's the problem with applying team stats to individual players... it in no way attempts to indicate what contribution that player made to that win. 

Enter stats... one method that people can identify how a player contributes to a win. 

Why do you think QB is literally the only position where people care about whether the guy is a "winner" or not? 

And Tim Tebow is a "winner"...

What playoffs were you watching? Joe has the 7th highest playoff QB rating in history, 25 TD's vs 10 INT's and propelled an old and declining defense to a SB title. Dont get me wrong Flacco does lay some eggs almost every year in the regular season, but there's a reason people inside and out the league associate QB play to the success of a team, its not just a random statistical phenomenon.

Yeah team stats dont dont necessarily indicate a players contribution, but that doesn't prove that individual stats do. How does Joe get passing yards if his line doesn't block, his receivers cant get open, and our running game cant threaten them enough to stop playing nickel or dime defense? This is a cyclical argument because the fact is there are no individual stats in football as it is the ultimate team game.

Lastly, Tebow is a winner? that's why he sits behind a desk now and couldn't get a second contract right?

[rmcjacket23]

Just now, The Mom Gene said:

Not really....  Again, my post said playoffs and SB....  Yes, guys can win, but you have MANY that can't win when it matters.  Joe excels at that point.  It's my opinion...  It's not wrong..  It's just mine. 

OK, but there really are a lot of guys who win when it matters.

Brady, Flacco, Roethlisberger, Manning's, Brees, Rodgers, Wilson.

That's 25% of last years starting QBs who have all hoisted Lombardi's and have had previous success in the postseason.

And THEN, you start looking at other successful postseason QBs who haven't won a SB, like Rivers and Luck. Heck, even Kaepernick has four postseason wins. 

You're looking at 8-10 QBs in this league right now who have proven they can win consistently in the postseason. And that's just QBs... that's not even including every other position on the field.

Hence why this notion of being a "winner" isn't nearly as rare as people make it out to be.

[MiamiRaven55]

1 minute ago, The Mom Gene said:

And you have QB's who have thrown for 5k yards and haven't won a playoff game.  Or, maybe 1.

Not talking about 5k yards, I could care less. I'd like to see an entire season of Joe playing consistent without the bonehead passes where he throws off his back foot into triple coverage, like the wounded duck in the Rams game, where I'm sure we all scream at the TV "Why did you throw that?" There are several QB's in this league who I cannot stand, but you never see these mistakes from them. When is Joe gonna stop making these? 

[The Mom Gene]

3 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

OK, but there really are a lot of guys who win when it matters.

Brady, Flacco, Roethlisberger, Manning's, Brees, Rodgers, Wilson.

That's 25% of last years starting QBs who have all hoisted Lombardi's and have had previous success in the postseason.

And THEN, you start looking at other successful postseason QBs who haven't won a SB, like Rivers and Luck. Heck, even Kaepernick has four postseason wins. 

You're looking at 8-10 QBs in this league right now who have proven they can win consistently in the postseason. And that's just QBs... that's not even including every other position on the field.

Hence why this notion of being a "winner" isn't nearly as rare as people make it out to be.

Yup, right in there with those guys.

[The Mom Gene]

2 minutes ago, MiamiRaven55 said:

Not talking about 5k yards, I could care less. I'd like to see an entire season of Joe playing consistent without the bonehead passes where he throws off his back foot into triple coverage, like the wounded duck in the Rams game, where I'm sure we all scream at the TV "Why did you throw that?" There are several QB's in this league who I cannot stand, but you never see these mistakes from them. When is Joe gonna stop making these? 

Then get a healthy and decent O-Line and you might solve some of those problems.  I have said it a dozen times that if you put Flacco behind the Patriots O-Line and give him Brady's receivers, he'd look like a King too.

[The Mom Gene]

6 minutes ago, birdseye said:

What playoffs were you watching? Joe has the 7th highest playoff QB rating in history, 25 TD's vs 10 INT's and propelled an old and declining defense to a SB title. Dont get me wrong Flacco does lay some eggs almost every year in the regular season, but there's a reason people inside and out the league associate QB play to the success of a team, its not just a random statistical phenomenon.

Yeah team stats dont dont necessarily indicate a players contribution, but that doesn't prove that individual stats do. How does Joe get passing yards if his line doesn't block, his receivers cant get open, and our running game cant threaten them enough to stop playing nickel or dime defense? This is a cyclical argument because the fact is there are no individual stats in football as it is the ultimate team game.

Lastly, Tebow is a winner? that's why he sits behind a desk now and couldn't get a second contract right?

Thank you...  My point exactly.

[respecttheRaven]

Before Flacco and team won the SB........fans and commentators were saying in order to be elite, you really need to win a SB. After Joe and team won the SB. it changed again. Now you have to pass for over 4,000yrds and so on. It's all in the eyes of the beholder. I really don't care if he is graded at "elite". All that I care about is wins......and Joe is one of the best in that category, give him the weapons and he WILL produce. So sick of the "Is Joe Flacco elite" mantra. He is the best QB the Ravens have ever had, and he is here to stay!! For those that like him .....great!! For those that don't.....to bad..to sad for you. 

[rmcjacket23]

13 minutes ago, birdseye said:

What playoffs were you watching? Joe has the 7th highest playoff QB rating in history, 25 TD's vs 10 INT's and propelled an old and declining defense to a SB title. Dont get me wrong Flacco does lay some eggs almost every year in the regular season, but there's a reason people inside and out the league associate QB play to the success of a team, its not just a random statistical phenomenon.

Yeah team stats dont dont necessarily indicate a players contribution, but that doesn't prove that individual stats do. How does Joe get passing yards if his line doesn't block, his receivers cant get open, and our running game cant threaten them enough to stop playing nickel or dime defense? This is a cyclical argument because the fact is there are no individual stats in football as it is the ultimate team game.

Lastly, Tebow is a winner? that's why he sits behind a desk now and couldn't get a second contract right?

You do realize that Joe played in playoff games BEFORE 2012 correct? Go back and look at some of his earlier one's. Go back and look at what he did in his rookie season playoff performances (well below average by any possible standard). He gets credit for 2 wins that year.  I don't even care if you look at the stats... just watch the games. He's as forgettable as anybody on the field in those games.

Go look at his first playoff game in the 09 season in Foxboro, when the Ravens beat the Patriots 33-14. Go look at what Joe did in that game. Literally nobody on this planet could argue he positively contributed to that victory. Again... given credit for a win for that.

For 30% of Joe Flacco's postseason victories, AT BEST, you could argue he was a replacement level QB, meaning there were many, many backups in the league that could have done exactly what he did and had the exact same outcome. 

Now, since about late 2010, he's been great in the postseason. No debating that. But he hasn't always been great in the postseason. There's just no evidence to support that. Last five years... absolutely. One of the best postseason QBs probably in history in the last five years. 

And yes, Tebow is a "winner", because everywhere he plays, his team wins. He won a ton in college, and he won a large amount of the games he started in the NFL. But at least you made my point for me... "winning" doesn't get you a second contract. Production does. NFL teams don't pay for winners. If they did, they wouldn't hand out $15M a year contracts to DTs and pass rushers who have never won anything. They do that annually.

Edited May 26, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[MiamiRaven55]

9 minutes ago, The Mom Gene said:

Then get a healthy and decent O-Line and you might solve some of those problems.  I have said it a dozen times that if you put Flacco behind the Patriots O-Line and give him Brady's receivers, he'd look like a King too.

Then hopefully this is his year, on paper it looks like he has everything a QB would want. 

[redrum52]

31 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Its a combination of both. You can be a "winner" and have done nothing for your team to contribute to that win. We've seen Joe do that in the playoffs (against Brady no less). That's the problem with applying team stats to individual players... it in no way attempts to indicate what contribution that player made to that win. 

Enter stats... one method that people can identify how a player contributes to a win. 

Why do you think QB is literally the only position where people care about whether the guy is a "winner" or not? 

And Tim Tebow is a "winner"...

Saved me the time...

[redrum52]

57 minutes ago, The Mom Gene said:

And you have QB's who have thrown for 5k yards and haven't won a playoff game.  Or, maybe 1.

1 of Flaccos best games, to me, was the last time we were in the playoffs.  Is it entirely his fault we lost?  

[The Mom Gene]

1 minute ago, redrum52 said:

1 of Flaccos best games, to me, was the last time we were in the playoffs.  Is it entirely his fault we lost?  

Nope! not at all.

[RRRRRavens]

  54 minutes ago, The Mom Gene said:

Not really....  Again, my post said playoffs and SB....  Yes, guys can win, but you have MANY that can't win when it matters.  Joe excels at that point.  It's my opinion...  It's not wrong..  It's just mine. 

OK, but there really are a lot of guys who win when it matters.

Brady, Flacco, Roethlisberger, Manning's, Brees, Rodgers, Wilson.

That's 25% of last years starting QBs who have all hoisted Lombardi's and have had previous success in the postseason.

And THEN, you start looking at other successful postseason QBs who haven't won a SB, like Rivers and Luck. Heck, even Kaepernick has four postseason wins. 

You're looking at 8-10 QBs in this league right now who have proven they can win consistently in the postseason. And that's just QBs... that's not even including every other position on the field.

Hence why this notion of being a "winner" isn't nearly as rare as people make it out to be.

This sounds like a fun discussion to dig into. Let's start with Flacco and Kaepernick re Super Bowl records. I contend that the difference in their SB records, in fact a complete reversal of same, is one great (maybe illegal) defensive play by Jimmy Smith in the endzone near the end of the game. If Jimmy doesn't make that play SF scores and ultimately wins the SB.