Matt Elam and Arthur Brown- Pride getting in the way?

[Sami84]

It's clear that these two guys are the epitome of NFL busts. Yet, after 3 years, with countless of cuts over this time, these two have somehow stayed on the roster and with no play outside of bad or non existant to show for it. I don't think it's fair that players who were drafted much lower over this time get cut by default and yet somehow the FO just feel too much pride and wont cut them or clearly see that there have been undrafted or lower drafted players that have more ability than them and feel obliged by their decision making in the draft to keep the worse player because cutting them would make them look bad. I think of this because a guy like victor ochi comes to mind. I love this kid, i think hes going to be that gem. I'm worried that EVEN if he does really well in pre season, he'll be cut by  draft default while higher drafted guys from this year or last years draft will get a chance no matter how well they play.

 

thoughts?

Edited May 25, 2016 by Sami84

[Tiznut]

For one they are both relatively inexpensive. Second we haven't made any cuts so they, like everyone else on the 90 man gets a chance to compete.  Three if it was about pride Elam wouldn't have been buried on the depth chart prior to injury last yr. 4th it's only may both can show themselves to be serviceable in our system or get cut before August. Show. Some.  Patience. 

[Sami84]

lets see. I'm just rooting for ochi and I hope hes given a real go..not ''oh well you're undrafted and we are running out of spots and we spent a 3rd round pick on carl davis last year and even though he hasnt looked impressive, while you have, it's just how it works here''..obviously they are not going to say it like this lol but its really want they are saying beyond the words

[Tiznut]

The Ravens consistently give udfa chances. if they can play they'll get to play. Think the only udfa we didn't find room for that turned out good was James Harrison 

[Sami84]

2 minutes ago, Tiznut said:

The Ravens consistently give udfa chances. if they can play they'll get to play. Think the only udfa we didn't find room for that turned out good was James Harrison 

 

 

boy..that one hurt..imagine if he was never with the steelers..we would have won those playoff games..he wrecked us. Would have made the adlius thomas departure much easier

Edited May 25, 2016 by Sami84

[rmw10]

We really talking about James Harrison here?  Both us and the Steelers cut him multiple times.  Just because he finally came into his own 2 years later doesn't mean it was a mistake.

[Tiznut]

3 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

We really talking about James Harrison here?  Both us and the Steelers cut him multiple times.  Just because he finally came into his own 2 years later doesn't mean it was a mistake.

No we are talking about how often the Ravens give udfas a chance and I never said it was a mistake to let him go.  

If I were to dive into it try and refer to it as a mistake I'd discuss the guys kept over him and their failures...

Edited May 25, 2016 by Tiznut

[Sami84]

1 minute ago, rmw10 said:

We really talking about James Harrison here?  Both us and the Steelers cut him multiple times.  Just because he finally came into his own 2 years later doesn't mean it was a mistake.

 

ozzie said it was one of his biggest regrets so i guess that could qualify as a mistake?

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, Sami84 said:

ozzie said it was one of his biggest regrets so i guess that could qualify as a mistake?

A "mistake" all 32 NFL teams made.

Ravens made a "mistake" by not drafting Tom Brady also. So whats the point?

[rmcjacket23]

48 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

It's clear that these two guys are the epitome of NFL busts. Yet, after 3 years, with countless of cuts over this time, these two have somehow stayed on the roster and with no play outside of bad or non existant to show for it. I don't think it's fair that players who were drafted much lower over this time get cut by default and yet somehow the FO just feel too much pride and wont cut them or clearly see that there have been undrafted or lower drafted players that have more ability than them and feel obliged by their decision making in the draft to keep the worse player because cutting them would make them look bad. I think of this because a guy like victor ochi comes to mind. I love this kid, i think hes going to be that gem. I'm worried that EVEN if he does really well in pre season, he'll be cut by  draft default while higher drafted guys from this year or last years draft will get a chance no matter how well they play.

 

thoughts?

Which players, specifically, have we cut so that Elam and Brown can stay on the roster AND why are those players showing that they are better than these guys?

Would just like a couple names, because I'm having a hard time thinking of any.

[Sami84]

Just now, rmcjacket23 said:

Which players, specifically, have we cut so that Elam and Brown can stay on the roster AND why are those players showing that they are better than these guys?

Would just like a couple names, because I'm having a hard time thinking of any.

 

John Simon ? 

[rmcjacket23]

Just now, Sami84 said:

John Simon ? 

Doesn't play the same position as either of those guys.

Try again.

[Tiznut]

5 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

A "mistake" all 32 NFL teams made.

Ravens made a "mistake" by not drafting Tom Brady also. So whats the point?

A mistake is a mistake regardless of how many others emulate it. But again that wasn't my point in saying the only udfa that we let go that ended up suceeding is Harrison. 

[Sami84]

6 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Doesn't play the same position as either of those guys.

Try again.

 

i dont think thats the point. You keep the best players on your roster. Arthur brown wouldnt be on the roster now if he wasnt a 2nd round pick. If he were 4th round or less he would have been out 2 years ago

[rmcjacket23]

So is John Simon the best we have? A guy who doesn't play either of the positions that Brown and Elam do?

Where are the quality MLBs who we cut so we could keep Arthur Brown? Where are the quality safeties we cut so we could keep Matt Elam?

If it was all about pride... why did we bring Daryl Smith here? Why did we draft CJ Mosley? Why has Zach Orr played more than Brown? Why did we sign Eric Weddle? Why did we sign Will Hill? Why did we convert Webb to safety? Why did we draft Terrance Brooks?

I mean if it was all about pride, shouldn't we have just sent Elam and Art Brown out there every week and just let them fail? Why did Elam get benched as a safety in year 2? Why has Art struggled heavily to even be active on gamedays?

The actions that have followed kind of contradict the premise do they not?

[rmcjacket23]

Just now, Sami84 said:

i dont think thats the point. You keep the best players on your roster. Arthur brown wouldnt be on the roster now if he wasnt a 2nd round pick. If he were 4th round or less he would have been out 2 years ago

Except you don't keep the best players on your roster. No team ever does. I don't know where you got that from.

What if none of your best 53 players are linebackers? Do you just have zero linebackers on your team? What if only 3 of your best 53 players are defensive lineman... is that all you carry? Three?

You can make an easy case that the depth at MLB and safety has been so bad in recent years that none of them should have made the team. So should we just swap out our 3rd and 4th safeties for our 10th defensive lineman?

I'm beginning to wonder if you know how NFL teams are put together...

[rmw10]

11 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

ozzie said it was one of his biggest regrets so i guess that could qualify as a mistake?

Where did he say this?

Regardless, it's only a mistake in hindsight because we know what kind of player he turned out to be.  At the time, I'd be willing to guess that most people either didn't know Harrison or didn't really care what happened to him.

UDFAs in general are a complete crapshoot.  Sure, some may turn out to be decent players, but just because they have success elsewhere doesn't mean they would have had the same success here.

[rmcjacket23]

3 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

i dont think thats the point. You keep the best players on your roster. Arthur brown wouldnt be on the roster now if he wasnt a 2nd round pick. If he were 4th round or less he would have been out 2 years ago

And in reference to draft status... of course it matters. Did you really not know this? Sixth round picks aren't treated like 1st or 2nd round picks... they haven't earned the right to be treated as such.

Higher picks get paid more, hence the investment in them is more. You treat things that are higher investments differently than lesser investments. 

I treat my $40K sports car differently than I treat my $10K pickup truck. Why? Because one cost $40K and the other cost $10K. 

Had we found somebody that was so significantly better than Brown from a depth perspective, he likely would have been gone. But we didn't and still haven't. Same thing applies to Elam and many other players who last on the team longer than most think they should.

[Sami84]

4 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Except you don't keep the best players on your roster. No team ever does. I don't know where you got that from.

What if none of your best 53 players are linebackers? Do you just have zero linebackers on your team? What if only 3 of your best 53 players are defensive lineman... is that all you carry? Three?

You can make an easy case that the depth at MLB and safety has been so bad in recent years that none of them should have made the team. So should we just swap out our 3rd and 4th safeties for our 10th defensive lineman?

I'm beginning to wonder if you know how NFL teams are put together...

 

 

Tell me 1 player who has done LESS than arthur brown has on this roster that is STILL on the team since he was drafted.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Sami84

[Kinda_Dante]

I also think that although this year is make or break for Elam there needs to be a little more optimism for him. Brown has been healthy and struggled to get on the field but Elam had a solid first year, then hit a sophomore slump like a lot of other players do. In his 3rd year the coaches talked about how the game was beginning to slow down for him, like it does for a lot of players in their 3rd year, and then he got injured. I think we need to give him a chance this year.  

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

Tell me 1 player who has done LESS than arthur brown has on this roster that is STILL on the team since he was drafted.

Kapron Lewis-Moore.

I'm still waiting to the answer of who the quality MLB we let go to keep Art Brown on the team. We've got guys annually on this team who contribute nothing. The difference is that there isn't anybody better just laying around waiting to play. 

This is the problem with fans. Can identify problems in their sleep. When it comes time to present solutions or alternatives... they backpedal so fast they trip and fall down.

Remember that whole conversation about you being able to be a better scout than NFL scouts? This is one of those moments when you're supposed to prove that, and so far, you aren't. 

[rmw10]

12 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

i dont think thats the point. You keep the best players on your roster. Arthur brown wouldnt be on the roster now if he wasnt a 2nd round pick. If he were 4th round or less he would have been out 2 years ago

To an extent.  While Arthur Brown hasn't done really anything in his NFL career, we still thought highly enough of him to trade up for him in the 2nd in the first place.  In years 1 and 2, it's a no brainer to keep him around.  Can't give up on him that easily.

Last year I think was a different story.  A team that looked deep ended up not being so deep come the start of the season.  Any other year, I think he could have seen his way off of the roster.  Last year?  It seemed hard enough finding 53 guys worth keeping on the team.

[Sami84]

1 minute ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Kapron Lewis-Moore.

I'm still waiting to the answer of who the quality MLB we let go to keep Art Brown on the team. We've got guys annually on this team who contribute nothing. The difference is that there isn't anybody better just laying around waiting to play. 

This is the problem with fans. Can identify problems in their sleep. When it comes time to present solutions or alternatives... they backpedal so fast they trip and fall down.

Remember that whole conversation about you being able to be a better scout than NFL scouts? This is one of those moments when you're supposed to prove that, and so far, you aren't. 

1

nope. KLM has done more. Hes actually had snaps. Call me crazy but john simon could have probably done a better job then brown at ILB

[rmcjacket23]

3 minutes ago, Kinda_Dante said:

I also think that although this year is make or break for Elam there needs to be a little more optimism for him. Brown has been healthy and struggled to get on the field but Elam had a solid first year, then hit a sophomore slump like a lot of other players do. In his 3rd year the coaches talked about how the game was beginning to slow down for him, like it does for a lot of players in their 3rd year, and then he got injured. I think we need to give him a chance this year.  

All players are given a chance... its up to them to make the most of it.

Elam's gotta go back to the drawing board and learn how to tackle again. Sophomore slumps generally don't involve shying away from contact and fundamentally not knowing how to tackle somebody, which is what Elam did in his sophomore year. 

Its a lot more concerning to me than just a "sophomore slump". Hopefully he proves me wrong. 

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

nope. KLM has done more. Hes actually had snaps. Call me crazy but john simon could have probably done a better job then brown at ILB

Art Brown plays on ST. KLM basically doesn't. The guy played 50 snaps on defense last year. 

Welcome to the value of depth players.

Contributing nothing on defense + contributing something on ST > contributing nothing on defense + contributing nothing on ST.

Edited May 25, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[Sami84]

I havent seen arthur brown do anything of note on Special teams. in fact he was considered a liability of special teams.

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, Sami84 said:

I havent seen arthur brown do anything of note on Special teams. in fact he was considered a liability of special teams.

Who considered him a liability?

How about KLM? How's his ST value?

[Sami84]

KLM actualy played  SNAPS ON THE DLINE

[Sami84]

im getting tired..Art Brown has been the most useless 2nd round pick in ravens history by a landslide..im sick of this petty arguement. Hes not a good st player either. 

[rmcjacket23]

5 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

KLM actualy played  SNAPS ON THE DLINE

Yes, all 50 of them. I'd rather have somebody playing 250 snaps in ST.