Why a Team Declines

[Tank 92]

[usmccharles]

2 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

Is that Joe Dirt'e?

[rmcjacket23]

15 hours ago, Winchester said:

Never said it was flawless. But for most part it is impact players. Schaub one year threw 4800 yards 30+ TDs. That is pro bowl caliber by anybody's standards.

Yes, in 2007. You are also ignoring something else though...

The year that Schaub made his 2nd Pro Bowl (as a replacement by the way) was 2012. In that season, Schaub threw for 4,008 yards and 22 TDs (12 INTs). Those were Joe Flacco numbers.

For added context, those yardage figures from Schaub ranked him outside the top 10 in the NFL (11th) and 5th in the AFC, wedged between Carson Palmer and Joe Flacco. His TDs (22) ranked him in a tie for 15th in the NFL (tied with Carson and Flacco as well), tied for 8th in the AFC. He threw less TDs than Ryan Fitzpatrick that year. 

If you are a fan of QB rating (which I'm not), he was 9th in the NFL that season as well (4th in the AFC).

And Vince Young was a two time Pro Bowler in 2006 and 2009. Go look at his statistics in those seasons. They are dreadful. Like literally horrible.

In 2009, he missed 4 games, finished with 2,160 total yards (includes rushing), 12 total TDs, 9 total turnovers. He made the Pro Bowl.

The moment ANY of this happens, the game loses all credibility. These guys are forever known as "Pro Bowl" players. Regardless of whether the game is "generally the better players", they'd have been better off not playing the game than diminishing the game this much by having these guys play in it.

This is why it gets no respect.

 

[Tru11]

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Yes, in 2007. You are also ignoring something else though...

The year that Schaub made his 2nd Pro Bowl (as a replacement by the way) was 2012. In that season, Schaub threw for 4,008 yards and 22 TDs (12 INTs). Those were Joe Flacco numbers.

For added context, those yardage figures from Schaub ranked him outside the top 10 in the NFL (11th) and 5th in the AFC, wedged between Carson Palmer and Joe Flacco. His TDs (22) ranked him in a tie for 15th in the NFL (tied with Carson and Flacco as well), tied for 8th in the AFC. He threw less TDs than Ryan Fitzpatrick that year. 

If you are a fan of QB rating (which I'm not), he was 9th in the NFL that season as well (4th in the AFC).

And Vince Young was a two time Pro Bowler in 2006 and 2009. Go look at his statistics in those seasons. They are dreadful. Like literally horrible.

In 2009, he missed 4 games, finished with 2,160 total yards (includes rushing), 12 total TDs, 9 total turnovers. He made the Pro Bowl.

The moment ANY of this happens, the game loses all credibility. These guys are forever known as "Pro Bowl" players. Regardless of whether the game is "generally the better players", they'd have been better off not playing the game than diminishing the game this much by having these guys play in it.

This is why it gets no respect.

 

yup.

when fan voting can influence who gets picked it loses most of the credibility.

 

[Tank 92]

3 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Is that Joe Dirt'e?

Not sure, but he has great grammatical skills.  LMAO! 

[RavensDieHard21]

On 5/23/2016 at 11:57 AM, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I would say CJ Mosley, Brandon Williams, Kelechi Osemele, Joe Flacco, Ray Rice, McPhee and Juice are all elite.

And Jimmy Smith, Rick Wagner, Gillmore, Williams, Perriman, and Stanley all have the chance to be, with some closer than others.

Thats 7 elite players in 8 years... no one finds an elite player every draft, especially where we've picked.

And we have a bunch others approaching or with the chance, and many who its way too early to tell. 

I would say, at their respected positions, KO was elite, but no longer here, Williams is an elite NT, J. Smith and Mosley need one full campaign at a high level and they are right there. But Flacco and Rice were so long ago I wouldn't characterize them as recent draft picks lol 

[RavensDieHard21]

On 5/23/2016 at 0:01 PM, trevorsteadman said:

Which brings back the question of what is the definition of elite? To me elite is top 3 at the position. I don't see any of our players except maybe Brandon Williams top 3 at their position. But we have a bunch of solid cornerstone players. And that is how we won the super bowl a couple years ago. A well rounded team with good depth and great coaching will get the job done. Ask New England. Most their players are average at best. 

I would say Elite is top 5 at the position, but then there is pro bowl level, where guys are somewhere in the top 10, which many of our players are, as outside of Williams, Mosley, Yanda,and Tucker, I wouldn't say any other player is top 5 at their position

[RavensDieHard21]

Let us gripe about draft picks all we want,good teams naturally will have great opportunities to win championships for a certain period of time, typically 4-5 years before their cornerstone veterans retire and all their young studs are looking to be paid as the best at their position. This happens to everyone at some point, unless you are the Pats, whom love em or hate them, have had the best QB-Coach combo in the league for 15 years. 

We were a new franchise that stunk when we started, but after years at the bottom, we accrued great draft picks and FAs that helped win us a championship, then we couldn't quite keep the band in tact and we sunk again, which let us keep cornerstones while thinning out the roster until we reloaded it for 06', then the Harbaugh Era of dominance between 08-12. 

We will be back very soon, but I would not be the least bit surprised if we had another underwhelming season, but one that would top 5-11, most likely going 8-8 or 9-7. 

[RavensDieHard21]

Let us not forget that elite, franchise changing players do not come around in every draft, let alone at the exact position we draft in every year. To have had Lewis, Reed, Suggs, and Ngata together for so long was rare and special, especially when you factor in the great moving piece like Rice, Boldin, Mason, Scott, Kruger, McPhee, etc. 

Our current roster is very solid and has a lot of promising players, many to be excited about, but I wouldn't mind if once and awhile Oz and co. became more aggressive in obtaining Free Agents, our own talent or high draft picks. Those occasional moves could put us back in championship contention

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

On May 23, 2016 at 8:54 AM, trevorsteadman said:

Elite players didn't win us the 2012 Super Bowl. A bunch of solid good players wins super bowls. 

No. We won the SB as a team. What a lot of posters seem to fail to understand is that you don't need a team full of "alpha males" to win one. Good solid players and depth need to make up most of the team. You do need a central core, but the entire team doesn't need to be filled with alpha males.

 

Ive said it in the past. You need three things to be a SB contender. 

1. A franchise QB.

2. Strength in the trenches. 

3. An identity. 

 

We didn't have two and three last year(partially do to injuries). So what do we do? We go get Stanley, Henry, Kaufausi, Correa, Judon, Ochi. We inject talent into there cause we needed it. We were desperate for it. 

Three will come with time. We have an offensive identity. We're going to use a lot of play action and bootlegs with safer checkdowns to the running backs. We're a run first time. We like to punch NFL teams in the mouth that way. Defensivley, we lack one atm. We are a bend but don't break defense but we break because of the trench play. That's why we declined. Add injuries, lack of depth in the trenches, and a lack of an identity and you can't win. It's a perfect storm of crap. I'll keep saying it. 

 

And yes. An elite player did win us that SB. He hasn't reached that level since then, but to be fair playing as well as he did during that run for an extended period of time was special. He had one of the greatest postseasons I have ever seen. And you know what? Our cornerstone is an elite player in the playoffs. He just is. So what did we do? We got him a pair of good RBs, a few good olinemen, and some recieving weapons. A few veterans and a few young guys. 

 

Defensivley, we have pretty much the same with a weakness at MLB(which has yet to be addressed. I'll admit I'm losing my patience with Ozzie on this one). If we can stay healthy and get to the postseason, then pretty much anything is possible for us. We have depth now, it may take us a year or two but to say we reach another SB soon isn't unlikely. 

 

We'll be fine. The entire world thinks we suck and can't do anything? We're talentless and have a horrid QB. Sounds familiar? I think so. 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

On May 23, 2016 at 10:04 AM, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Yea thats why Damon Harrison just got $45 mill

That's cause if you can't stop the run you can't win games. If Williams got into the backfield more he'd be a first team all pro every season and possibly have a hall of fame career. And for a 3-4 NT he does very well as a pass rusher. Williams is an elite player. He won't get recognition for it but he's a key cog. The league may still be a passing one, but most teams need a run game to set it up. It's why Kubiak's offenses are so effective. Williams is possibly the best run defender we have.

 

And for the people complaining about Jernigan.. Remember in the SB what happened when Ngata went out? Gore decided to then kill us. Ozzie went, "no way in hell that is ever happening again" and he went and got Jernigan and Williams. Both in which have been very successful for us. Hell, when Jernigan brings his A game he gets pressure on the QB too(he needs to learn how to do it consistently). 

 

Sorry, but with the kind of defense we run, having a beast of a nose tackle is an absolute difference maker. It may be a passing league but running the ball is still important. 

[usmccharles]

1 hour ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

Let us not forget that elite, franchise changing players do not come around in every draft, let alone at the exact position we draft in every year. To have had Lewis, Reed, Suggs, and Ngata together for so long was rare and special, especially when you factor in the great moving piece like Rice, Boldin, Mason, Scott, Kruger, McPhee, etc. 

Our current roster is very solid and has a lot of promising players, many to be excited about, but I wouldn't mind if once and awhile Oz and co. became more aggressive in obtaining Free Agents, our own talent or high draft picks. Those occasional moves could put us back in championship contention

Well they have.  We never sign players as quickly as we did this year and we signed a top FA in Weddle, got a possible game changer in Wallace, and a vet TE in Watson.  We also brought in SSR previously who if not for him, our offense would of had no game changer.  So we were pretty damn aggressive this last year, way more than most thought and used to. 

[Militant X 1]

On 5/22/2016 at 9:05 AM, usmccharles said:

Seriously? If your going to start another complain thread,  at least put some effort into it

Lol....

[Edgar]

I pick Perriman  this year to breakout. Very talented guy who will have to be accounted for.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

18 hours ago, Edgar said:

I pick Perriman  this year to breakout. Very talented guy who will have to be accounted for.

 

Not that you should put much stock into a 20 second clip from ota but he was double catching really bad in that clip, and it's a problem he had in college. I really hope he can work that out because as soon as he drops a pass in a game the fan base will lose their minds

[Tiznut]

17 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Not that you should put much stock into a 20 second clip from ota but he was double catching really bad in that clip, and it's a problem he had in college. I really hope he can work that out because as soon as he drops a pass in a game the fan base will lose their minds

True the clip didn't show smooth hands but we knew last yr he wasn't the smoothest catcher. He's a taller and faster Torrey smith.  In time I hope you gets smoother with the catches but as long as he makes the big plays and helps the offense win I'm not complaining 

[usmccharles]

30 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Not that you should put much stock into a 20 second clip from ota but he was double catching really bad in that clip, and it's a problem he had in college. I really hope he can work that out because as soon as he drops a pass in a game the fan base will lose their minds

To be honest, I could care-less how he catches it, as long as he catches it lol.  One thing I noticed in his college tape, he high pointed the ball a lot when having to come back to the ball. 

[RavensDieHard21]

On 5/25/2016 at 3:01 AM, usmccharles said:

Well they have.  We never sign players as quickly as we did this year and we signed a top FA in Weddle, got a possible game changer in Wallace, and a vet TE in Watson.  We also brought in SSR previously who if not for him, our offense would of had no game changer.  So we were pretty damn aggressive this last year, way more than most thought and used to. 

Very well aware of this lol but this was an anomaly. Moving forward from time to time, if the price is right we should pounce, not saying ever getting in the bidding wars, but don't try getting us pumped up over players like Kendrick Lewis lol

[RavensDieHard21]

19 hours ago, Edgar said:

I pick Perriman  this year to breakout. Very talented guy who will have to be accounted for.

 

ultra explosive, physical, and has big play ability, I hope Trestman gets creative to get him the ball

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Not that you should put much stock into a 20 second clip from ota but he was double catching really bad in that clip, and it's a problem he had in college. I really hope he can work that out because as soon as he drops a pass in a game the fan base will lose their minds

I really only saw him do that on one catch. Maybe i missed something, but i only saw like 3 catches.... 2 as i recall were completely clean, and one hit his hands and bounced into his body as he secured it. Whats the old saying - 2 out of 3 aint bad? Something like that.

And, incredibly small sample size.

[Cville-Raven]

20 hours ago, Edgar said:

I pick Perriman  this year to breakout. Very talented guy who will have to be accounted for.

 

I'm there with you. The myth becomes reality.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Cville-Raven

[D-Rey]

2 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Not that you should put much stock into a 20 second clip from ota but he was double catching really bad in that clip, and it's a problem he had in college. I really hope he can work that out because as soon as he drops a pass in a game the fan base will lose their minds

He double caught a single time with the pass being behind him, the rest were hands catches. I'm pretty sure the level headed fans will give him time to develop.

Edited May 26, 2016 by D-Rey

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I really only saw him do that on one catch. Maybe i missed something, but i only saw like 3 catches.... 2 as i recall were completely clean, and one hit his hands and bounced into his body as he secured it. Whats the old saying - 2 out of 3 aint bad? Something like that.

And, incredibly small sample size.

One was a distinct double catch and another Wasn't exactly a double catch but it rolled around between his hands a good bit. 

If he didn't have a problem with double catches in college I wouldn't even point it out and it's probably nothing to worry about. Just something I noticed.

[ellicottraven]

2 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I really only saw him do that on one catch. Maybe i missed something, but i only saw like 3 catches.... 2 as i recall were completely clean, and one hit his hands and bounced into his body as he secured it. Whats the old saying - 2 out of 3 aint bad? Something like that.

And, incredibly small sample size.

That particular catch where he let slip from his hands into his body, he was a little ahead of the ball and had to stretch backwards with his body moving in the opposite direction. So, I'm going to let that pass. As for the other catches he caught them clean including the ones where he was being obstructed from catching balls by both Wallace and Aiken. I thought he caught all those balls cleanly.

[atomicfront]

Look at the 2007 team that went 5-11 and the elite to semi-elite players on the team.  You have sure HOF in Ogden, Ray Lewis, and Ed Reed and Suggs might be a HOFer as well.  And a lot of other all-pros.  Still team was terrible.  

 

Steve Mcair
Todd Heap
Willis McGahee
Ray Lewis
Terrell Suggs
Ed Reed
Chris Mcalister
Samari Rolle
Haloti Nagata
Derek Mason
Ben Grubbs
JOnathon Ogden

 

 

[Edgar]

6 hours ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

ultra explosive, physical, and has big play ability, I hope Trestman gets creative to get him the ball

A multi level threat. Rare..very rare speed. Perriman will influence defenses even more than Torrey.

He is the most complete receiver in this year's draft and it won't surprise me if he is viewed as an abject steal two years from now.

Caveat time....as long as he stays on the field.

[RavensDieHard21]

8 hours ago, atomicfront said:

Look at the 2007 team that went 5-11 and the elite to semi-elite players on the team.  You have sure HOF in Ogden, Ray Lewis, and Ed Reed and Suggs might be a HOFer as well.  And a lot of other all-pros.  Still team was terrible.  

 

Steve Mcair
Todd Heap
Willis McGahee
Ray Lewis
Terrell Suggs
Ed Reed
Chris Mcalister
Samari Rolle
Haloti Nagata
Derek Mason
Ben Grubbs
JOnathon Ogden

 

 

Talent is about 60% of it, them factor in chemistry, catching a bad break, injuries, penalties, etc. that is why we flipped the switch in one year, the talent was there

[RavensDieHard21]

7 hours ago, Edgar said:

A multi level threat. Rare..very rare speed. Perriman will influence defenses even more than Torrey.

He is the most complete receiver in this year's draft and it won't surprise me if he is viewed as an abject steal two years from now.

Caveat time....as long as he stays on the field.

agreed! especially since having SSS and a more proven Aiken will make it hard for teams to double him

[Tank 92]

1 hour ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

Talent is about 60% of it, them factor in chemistry, catching a bad break, injuries, penalties, etc. that is why we flipped the switch in one year, the talent was there

Billick had lost control, and respect in the locker room. I think that was the biggest issue and the reason there was such a quick turn around with the coaching change. Joe Flacco arriving also had a huge impact.

[usmccharles]

17 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

Billick had lost control, and respect in the locker room. I think that was the biggest issue and the reason there was such a quick turn around with the coaching change. Joe Flacco arriving also had a huge impact.

Yea id say so lol.  If we wouldn't of gotten him we would of seen more years of a wasted core group