Why a Team Declines

[The Mom Gene]

Hence why I haven't been on here lately....  We're all bored.

 

Let's get this season started, Please!

[Winchester]

14 hours ago, Adreme said:

You mean a decade or longer ago when the Ravens were able to pick high in the draft every other year?  Its not that hard to get great players when you draft in the top half of the first round.  This whole thread is subjective though.  Calling Maxx Williams and Perriman busts or even listing them is crazy.

I would even go as far as to say Elam is premature considering he had 1 bad season and it was bad but it was his 2nd season before getting an unlucky season ending injury that derailed him last season when he looked like he might be wiling to take that step forward.

Excuses?? Nobody said bust. Ravens have not found any elite players in several drafts now.

[Somerset Ravens]

7 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Excuses?? Nobody said bust. Ravens have not found any elite players in several drafts now.

What is your definition of elite ?

[trevorsteadman]

10 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Excuses?? Nobody said bust. Ravens have not found any elite players in several drafts now.

Elite players didn't win us the 2012 Super Bowl. A bunch of solid good players wins super bowls. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

11 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Excuses?? Nobody said bust. Ravens have not found any elite players in several drafts now.

I would say CJ Mosley, Brandon Williams, Kelechi Osemele, Joe Flacco, Ray Rice, McPhee and Juice are all elite.

And Jimmy Smith, Rick Wagner, Gillmore, Williams, Perriman, and Stanley all have the chance to be, with some closer than others.

Thats 7 elite players in 8 years... no one finds an elite player every draft, especially where we've picked.

And we have a bunch others approaching or with the chance, and many who its way too early to tell. 

[trevorsteadman]

3 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I would say CJ Mosley, Brandon Williams, Kelechi Osemele, Joe Flacco, Ray Rice, McPhee and Juice are all elite.

And Jimmy Smith, Rick Wagner, Gillmore, Williams, Perriman, and Stanley all have the chance to be, with some closer than others.

Thats 7 elite players in 8 years... no one finds an elite player every draft, especially where we've picked.

And we have a bunch others approaching or with the chance, and many who its way too early to tell. 

Which brings back the question of what is the definition of elite? To me elite is top 3 at the position. I don't see any of our players except maybe Brandon Williams top 3 at their position. But we have a bunch of solid cornerstone players. And that is how we won the super bowl a couple years ago. A well rounded team with good depth and great coaching will get the job done. Ask New England. Most their players are average at best. 

[Tiznut]

10 minutes ago, Somerset Ravens said:

What is your definition of elite ?

This. I mean Mosley was a pro bowler his rookie yr and Williams is regarded as one of the best NT but in order to be elite. Well to me anyway, they'd need to maintain high level of production for a long time. By my view very few players in the league are elite.  

 

Not a bad thing I'm just not as liberal with using the elite term. 

[Sami84]

26 minutes ago, Tiznut said:

This. I mean Mosley was a pro bowler his rookie yr and Williams is regarded as one of the best NT but in order to be elite. Well to me anyway, they'd need to maintain high level of production for a long time. By my view very few players in the league are elite.  

 

Not a bad thing I'm just not as liberal with using the elite term. 

 

the reason why williams isn't looked at as elite is one reason and joe cullen said it to him point blank. He doesn;t get into the backfield enough. these days you cant be one dimensional. its a passing league. even the nose tackles need around 4 sacks a year along with dominant run stuffing. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

28 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

the reason why williams isn't looked at as elite is one reason and joe cullen said it to him point blank. He doesn;t get into the backfield enough. these days you cant be one dimensional. its a passing league. even the nose tackles need around 4 sacks a year along with dominant run stuffing. 

Yea thats why Damon Harrison just got $45 mill

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, Somerset Ravens said:

What is your definition of elite ?

I'll save you the trouble... he doesn't have one.

It will probably involve some references to the Pro Bowl or something else that has nothing to do with actual good football players.

[Tru11]

seems to be some care more about individual accomplishments rather then team accomplishments.

its all about who has the best team and not who has the best group of individuals.

 

[Somerset Ravens]

2 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

seems to be some care more about individual accomplishments rather then team accomplishments.

its all about who has the best team and not who has the best group of individuals.

 

Well said !

[Tiznut]

12 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

seems to be some care more about individual accomplishments rather then team accomplishments.

its all about who has the best team and not who has the best group of individuals.

 

True. Iirc early 90s Cowboys didn't have pro bowl defenders but still accomplished team goals 

[Winchester]

2 hours ago, trevorsteadman said:

Which brings back the question of what is the definition of elite? To me elite is top 3 at the position. I don't see any of our players except maybe Brandon Williams top 3 at their position. But we have a bunch of solid cornerstone players. And that is how we won the super bowl a couple years ago. A well rounded team with good depth and great coaching will get the job done. Ask New England. Most their players are average at best. 

Brady played 2014 at just a ridiculous level!! Like him or not the dude is  jaw dropping awesome

[Winchester]

53 minutes ago, Tiznut said:

True. Iirc early 90s Cowboys didn't have pro bowl defenders but still accomplished team goals 

Charles Haley was a freak!!

[Winchester]

2 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I would say CJ Mosley, Brandon Williams, Kelechi Osemele, Joe Flacco, Ray Rice, McPhee and Juice are all elite.

And Jimmy Smith, Rick Wagner, Gillmore, Williams, Perriman, and Stanley all have the chance to be, with some closer than others.

Thats 7 elite players in 8 years... no one finds an elite player every draft, especially where we've picked.

And we have a bunch others approaching or with the chance, and many who its way too early to tell. 

With all that elite talent ravens should compete for the championship correct??

[Winchester]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I'll save you the trouble... he doesn't have one.

It will probably involve some references to the Pro Bowl or something else that has nothing to do with actual good football players.

Yeah cuz the pro bowl is filled with scrubs

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

2 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Brady played 2014 at just a ridiculous level!! Like him or not the dude is  jaw dropping awesome

But the point was - most would point to New England as the standard for success and what most fans want from their team... on the field at least.

And outside of Brady and Gronk, they dont have elite players. They have some other very good players like Jamie Collins, Chandler Jones, Edelman and others... But they're pretty good across the board and have depth. Not too many star players, but they get contributions from everywhere. 

I would say we're probably closest to NE in terms of organizationally and roster building.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 minute ago, Winchester said:

With all that elite talent ravens should compete for the championship correct??

Havent we been? Outside of 2013 when the roster was absolutely ripped down and the rebuilding process had just begun... and of course last year when our team was ravaged by injuries.... out most important pieces as well as our depth.

So, yes. I expect that this year we will again contend for the playoffs even though we play in arguably the toughest division in football.

[rmcjacket23]

4 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Yeah cuz the pro bowl is filled with scrubs

Nope, its just not filled with the best of the best players either.

Its somewhere in between, factoring heavier on the popularity aspect than the performance aspect.

[Winchester]

5 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Nope, its just not filled with the best of the best players either.

Its somewhere in between, factoring heavier on the popularity aspect than the performance aspect.

I agree it is not without mistakes but in general it is the better players in the league

[rmcjacket23]

Just now, Winchester said:

I agree it is not without mistakes but in general it is the better players in the league

I wouldn't even say that. By the time players back out, you're looking at sometimes barely top 10 guys at their positions.

Matt Schaub and Vince Young are Pro Bowl football players. Once you say that, its hard to take any of it seriously.

[Purple_City39]

1 hour ago, Tru11 said:

seems to be some care more about individual accomplishments rather then team accomplishments.

its all about who has the best team and not who has the best group of individuals.

 

Pretty much this.  Over the last few years, it has seemed like many fans want players that ESPN will slobber over so they can brag and say we have an elite player.  The 2012 superbowl team did not have one player who performed top 3 at their position that year IIRC except maybe Yanda.  Give me a team full of solid and better player.

And it definitely amazes me when people say stuff like "The Bengals have been drafting better for 7 years" meanwhile the Bengals have also been drafting much higher in that time frame.  And even with their "better" drafts, they have nothing to show for it except repeated one and done seasons.  Didn't know teams drafted with only a goal of getting to the playoffs and nothing else

[K-Dog]

46 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Nope, its just not filled with the best of the best players either.

Its somewhere in between, factoring heavier on the popularity aspect than the performance aspect.

Yup.

Pro bowl really should not be a significant measure of a players quality or contribution.

[Ravensfan23]

15 hours ago, Winchester said:

You could just as easily say those that can not see this team has to many needs can not see through their emotions of wanting to see the ravens do well and win

You very well could. The fact of the matter is that none of us really know what to expect this year. Last year most media members had the Ravens a potential Super Bowl season because of the type of performance they had against the Pats in the playoffs. How did that work out for the Ravens? Now we have people saying that this team will suck based off of last year's performance. Truth is we just don't know until these guys play.

However I will say there is more evidence to suggest that this team hit a low last year because of a league high injuries, as opposed to just flat out being bad. imo

[Winchester]

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I wouldn't even say that. By the time players back out, you're looking at sometimes barely top 10 guys at their positions.

Matt Schaub and Vince Young are Pro Bowl football players. Once you say that, its hard to take any of it seriously.

Never said it was flawless. But for most part it is impact players. Schaub one year threw 4800 yards 30+ TDs. That is pro bowl caliber by anybody's standards.

[Winchester]

31 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

You very well could. The fact of the matter is that none of us really know what to expect this year. Last year most media members had the Ravens a potential Super Bowl season because of the type of performance they had against the Pats in the playoffs. How did that work out for the Ravens? Now we have people saying that this team will suck based off of last year's performance. Truth is we just don't know until these guys play.

However I will say there is more evidence to suggest that this team hit a low last year because of a league high injuries, as opposed to just flat out being bad. imo

I agree. While bummed ravens did not get Demarcus Robinson and Reshard Robinson. I really like this draft. But not intended positions.Kufusi is going to be beast at edge rusher. Not an interior player. Henry is one of my favorite players in the draft. Dixon reminds me of my all time favorite ravens runner Priest Holmes. Who when he got to a team with more talent on offebse and better scheme, replaced Faulk as the best all around running back in the nfl. Ron Stanley has potential to be all pro. But you can't scoff at any acknowledgement of draft picks that did not and will not work out. And there are members and fans out there that get defensive and throw fits at the very mention of ANY player that will not work out as planned 

[RAYvenFan20]

5 hours ago, trevorsteadman said:

Which brings back the question of what is the definition of elite? To me elite is top 3 at the position. I don't see any of our players except maybe Brandon Williams top 3 at their position. But we have a bunch of solid cornerstone players. And that is how we won the super bowl a couple years ago. A well rounded team with good depth and great coaching will get the job done. Ask New England. Most their players are average at best. 

Yanda? He's probably top at his position. Tucker's definitely close to top 3. 

[Ravensfan23]

1 minute ago, Winchester said:

I agree. While bummed ravens did not get Demarcus Robinson and Reshard Robinson. I really like this draft. But not intended positions.Kufusi is going to be beast at edge rusher. Not an interior player. Henry is one of my favorite players in the draft. Dixon reminds me of my all time favorite ravens runner Priest Holmes. Who when he got to a team with more talent on offebse and better scheme, replaced Faulk as the best all around running back in the nfl. Ron Stanley has potential to be all pro. But you can't scoff at any acknowledgement of draft picks that did not and will not work out. And there are members and fans out there that get defensive and throw fits at the very mention of ANY player that will not work out as planned 

Really I haven't noticed that 

It's impossible for all draft picks and FA additions to work out. It just doesn't happen, guys don't pan out. Sometimes it's your favorite player in the draft and sometimes it's the guy you already knew wouldn't work out. It's just the law of the numbers. Nobody knows how any of these 1st and 2nd year players will really turn out so it's not really wise to get so emotional one way or the other in terms of will they be good or worn't they. 

 

[usmccharles]

I never  understood why it mattered if we had someone "elite".  Like someone said and like I have been saying, look at our recent SB team.  A lot of good players that formed to make a great team, people who did their job very well when needed.  I cam in here to make the point to look at NE, but someone beat me to it.  I could care less if we had 1 probowl player.  I feel like the people who throw out the word elite, expect us to draft a Ray Lewis, Reed, Suggs every year...doesn't work that way. 

This is going to be a long off season....