Revisiting the 2014 NFL Draft

[Winchester]

9 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

I cant recall at the moment, I just remember discussing the Falcons trade and saying it was a mistake and you saying it wasn't, I was just going off of that.  So you are saying you would of gave up rounds 1,2,3 for mack? 

No links? 

Not on the internet. Just rumors I heard that I believe. Same sources that I heard KO left on bitter terms and felt oline was not appreciated. And same sources that say biscotti likes Ozzie personally and his job is completely safe. However, just speculation on their part. But biscotti could replace Ozzies assistant. But just an educated speculation. I referring to trading up in general not being a mistake. I knew falcons traded a lot but not all that. Trading up is relevant to the draft and who is available. This draft I would of considered  trade next yrs round1 pick for a round 3 and pair of round4 picks in this draft. With all the good players in round4 that have round1 traits.  Like Reshard and Demarcus Robinson,  higher and Ngakoue.  That would really be a mid round run!! Ngakoue,Kufusi,young, Henry,Dixon,Reshard Robinson,Demarcus Robinson, and not of drafted lewis. It would be cool for him to be good but ravens have a history of picking obscure tackles that bewilders everybody then amount  to nothing like reid 

[usmccharles]

6 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Not on the internet. Just rumors I heard that I believe. Same sources that I heard KO left on bitter terms and felt oline was not appreciated. And same sources that say biscotti likes Ozzie personally and his job is completely safe. However, just speculation on their part. But biscotti could replace Ozzies assistant. But just an educated speculation. I referring to trading up in general not being a mistake. I knew falcons traded a lot but not all that. Trading up is relevant to the draft and who is available. This draft I would of considered  trade next yrs round1 pick for a round 3 and pair of round4 picks in this draft. With all the good players in round4 that have round1 traits.  Like Reshard and Demarcus Robinson,  higher and Ngakoue.  That would really be a mid round run!! Ngakoue,Kufusi,young, Henry,Dixon,Reshard Robinson,Demarcus Robinson, and not of drafted lewis. It would be cool for him to be good but ravens have a history of picking obscure tackles that bewilders everybody then amount  to nothing like reid 

Well I agree the context of the trade is obviously what is important.  Cant really say moving up in the draft is a good thing without knowing the terms.  IMO giving up a boat load of picks is only ok to get a franchise qb, because its going to be rare that you win without one,  So I don't fault the Eagles trading up.  But for a defensive player I cant see it, even considering how special Mack is.  I mean what if KC and Kaufusi end up being younger versions of Suggs and Doom? I would be pretty happy.  Its all speculation on draft day, I just have no issue having stood still with what we offered.  I've said before I wish we would trade up more to get the guy we want, but there has to be a limit to what we give. 

[BmoreBird22]

Since we're talking trades and all, I remember a rumor that if Zack Martin were there at 17, the Rams would have given up a future first to trade up to 17.

Would you have taken that trade?

[Tru11]

20 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Considering that we had no idea that Mosley, Jernigan, and Brooks would get drafted, or any player in the future, it's silly to bring them into the conversation when considering the question.

talking to the wrong person as i was not the one who brought them into the discussion.

as i stated before and even in the piece you quoted i went with what was said before me.

you should be saying this to the person who started this....

[Tru11]

20 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Re-read. Didnt compare him to Beckham at all. The previous poster said Mack > Mosley and Perriman, PERIOD.

I said, WHAT IF Perriman = Beckham, would that equation still be true? Of course not, so it's not a PERIOD scenario.... maybe a comma or ellipses (quoted directly).

My post implied that there were any number of possible outcomes for Perriman, dont know how it could be taken any other way.

and i used what if like you did.

why are you allowed to say what if and i dont?

[usmccharles]

6 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

talking to the wrong person as i was not the one who brought them into the discussion.

as i stated before and even in the piece you quoted i went with what was said before me.

you should be saying this to the person who started this....

Winchester brought up us not trading up enough and mentioned Mack. 

[Tru11]

42 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Winchester brought up us not trading up enough and mentioned Mack. 

tell that to bmore cause he seems confused.

also you should stop feeding winchester and drew cause what was a nice what if thread turned into a bashing ozzie and decosta thread for no reason.

OP can correct me if im wrong but i dont think this was intention and most of you guys are taking this way to serious....

 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Tru11

[Jacquouille]

One day, Ozzie will be retired and Decosta will be fed up with all of you, and we'll end up with Trent Baalke. And that will be the most painful thing ever.

[usmccharles]

21 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

tell that to bmore cause he seems confused.

also you should stop feeding him and drew cause what was a nice what if thread turned into a bashing ozzie and decosta thread for no reason.

OP can correct me if im wrong but i dont think this was intention and most of you guys are taking this way to serious....

 

Well he seems to find ways to always work in bashing the FO, but it is his right to voice his opinion just like its our right to think he's wrong.  And sometimes its fun just to see what he will say....

[Tru11]

12 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Well he seems to find ways to always work in bashing the FO, but it is his right to voice his opinion just like its our right to think he's wrong.  And sometimes its fun just to see what he will say....

thats true for sure but some cant seem to deal with it lol

[BmoreBird22]

55 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

talking to the wrong person as i was not the one who brought them into the discussion.

as i stated before and even in the piece you quoted i went with what was said before me.

you should be saying this to the person who started this....

I don't care who started it because I'm not talking to trolls and you definitely carried on that point in some of your replies.

[Moderator 3]

Less discussion of each other and more "on topic", please.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

2 hours ago, Tru11 said:

and i used what if like you did.

why are you allowed to say what if and i dont?

It's not being allowed vs not being allowed... you said what if hes not a good player as if that would change my comment in any way. My point was only to say its not a conclusive statement to say trading up for mack wouldve been the right move bc we only landed Mosley and Perriman. What if they're David Reed and Arthur Brown??? 

Well we dont know that yet, so its still inconclusive which was my point.

[Tru11]

1 minute ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

It's not being allowed vs not being allowed... you said what if hes not a good player as if that would change my comment in any way. My point was only to say its not a conclusive statement to say trading up for mack wouldve been the right move bc we only landed Mosley and Perriman. What if they're David Reed and Arthur Brown??? 

Well we dont know that yet, so its still inconclusive which was my point.

nah man i played the what if card just to play the what if card.

nothing more or nothing less lol.

pretty much in the spirit of what luddy just said 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

3 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

nah man i played the what if card just to play the what if card.

nothing more or nothing less lol.

pretty much in the spirit of what luddy just said 

and thats fine - was just pointing out that regardless of the "what if" there's no way to conclusively say that Mack > Player A and Player B. What if implies a variable, and since all 3 values on both sides of the scale are currently still variables - you cant say "this was the right move, period." 

Wasnt plugging any meaning into your post - just clarifying that the result of the "what if" in my post, whether Beckham or Joey Butterfingers, doesnt change the essence of what i was trying to say.

[RavensDieHard21]

3 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Since we're talking trades and all, I remember a rumor that if Zack Martin were there at 17, the Rams would have given up a future first to trade up to 17.

Would you have taken that trade?

It also depends, we would have gotten a future first plus their second? Did they draft second? So tough of a call because most likely both Mosley and Martin are there. That is a really tough one! If I am in the GM chair, I ask for their second, next year's first and a mid round pick such as a 3rd or 4th in 2015 too.

[RavensDieHard21]

3 hours ago, Tru11 said:

tell that to bmore cause he seems confused.

also you should stop feeding winchester and drew cause what was a nice what if thread turned into a bashing ozzie and decosta thread for no reason.

OP can correct me if im wrong but i dont think this was intention and most of you guys are taking this way to serious....

 

Ya more of a what would you do and what picks would have been worth sacrificing for Mack. I guess re-evaluating draft strategies at time isn't terrible, but too much bashing can get carried away, but we are all critics lol

[BmoreBird22]

14 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

It also depends, we would have gotten a future first plus their second? Did they draft second? So tough of a call because most likely both Mosley and Martin are there. That is a really tough one! If I am in the GM chair, I ask for their second, next year's first and a mid round pick such as a 3rd or 4th in 2015 too.

Well, that was basically what the deal was; I was just putting the emphasis on that first rounder.

[RavensDieHard21]

22 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Well, that was basically what the deal was; I was just putting the emphasis on that first rounder.

Ugh I probably wouldn't have. So tough though. As Martin was as solid of a pick as you could get. Imagine him and Yanda at G, plus Stanley at LT, the line would be anchored down. CJ coming out was highly touted, but his durability was seriously in question, but then you add in that the Rams were a struggling franchise, that 1st could very well be a top 5 pick. That is by far the toughest call to make.

 

[rmcjacket23]

On 5/17/2016 at 7:16 AM, Winchester said:

All those players are replaceable. Depth comes a dime a dozen. Mediocre players, ravens have to much of that!! People believe whatever comforts them. Apparently role players are more important than cornerstones now that the ravens do not have any cornerstones. And Falcons did not believe the team was a wr from a championship. It was an opportunity to draft a rare wr. Every fan to comfort themselves into believing impact players are not as important as depth now that the ravens have none like to point out the Jones trade. Let's look at the team that gave up the pick for jones. Depth really helped them. And the trade was 5 yrs ago!! That trade is not the reason the Falcons sucked. Falcons have screwed dozens of picks since that trade. Let's look at not making the trade. Ravens did not trade up for mack. Ravens were 5-11 with no impact players. But injuries..... believe whatever comforts you. Wait ravens should have depth to handle injuries cuz management did not trade a round1-3 pick for Mack. Let's see what happens this yr.

Given that we now have a large amount of data that supports the notion that QUANTITY of draft picks is ultimately what matters most for teams in the long term, its hard to argue for trading 3-4 quality draft picks for a single player... particularly when that player isn't a QB. 

Julio Jones is a great player, and now he's paid like a great player. And I'd do the same if I were the Falcons. But the fact that you are acknowledging that they whiffed on a lot of draft picks is precisely the reason why they need MORE draft picks. Because all teams whiff on a lot of draft picks, and the only true way long term to hit on more is to have more.

We will never know who the Falcons could have gotten with the draft picks they gave up for Julio Jones, or if that would have made them a better team. What we do know is that they traded a lot of picks for a guy who has not yet produced dividends in the Win column for that team, which last time I checked, is the entire goal.

He was traded for multiple players. He better make up for the fact that there are multiple players who are not Falcons because the Falcons wanted him that badly. Maybe those players were going to be garbage, or maybe one or more of them turned out to be truly great players. We will never know, and can't know. 

And because of that, nobody can sit there and say "well look what the Browns did with the picks". The Browns aren't the Falcons. 

[ravensdan]

15 hours ago, Winchester said:

Not on the internet. Just rumors I heard that I believe. Same sources that I heard KO left on bitter terms and felt oline was not appreciated. And same sources that say biscotti likes Ozzie personally and his job is completely safe. However, just speculation on their part. But biscotti could replace Ozzies assistant. But just an educated speculation. I referring to trading up in general not being a mistake. I knew falcons traded a lot but not all that. Trading up is relevant to the draft and who is available. This draft I would of considered  trade next yrs round1 pick for a round 3 and pair of round4 picks in this draft. With all the good players in round4 that have round1 traits.  Like Reshard and Demarcus Robinson,  higher and Ngakoue.  That would really be a mid round run!! Ngakoue,Kufusi,young, Henry,Dixon,Reshard Robinson,Demarcus Robinson, and not of drafted lewis. It would be cool for him to be good but ravens have a history of picking obscure tackles that bewilders everybody then amount  to nothing like reid 

You point out Reid but KO was a round two choice and also Rick Wagner was a mid round pick. I don't think the draft has been our biggest issue. Biggest problem is letting young building blocks like KO and McPhee go. Those are big mistakes IMO. Very big. You don't let your young core go. You retain them regardless. Let some older players go if need be. Yes we've missed on some guys I wanted but let's be honest I wasn't that familiar with both these rocks McPhee and KO ahead of the draft. 

[Guest]

21 hours ago, usmccharles said:

 

Every single thing he posted was literally opinion based....not backed up by one single link to a 'fact'. 

 

 

I think all Ravens fans can agree to disagree...but what is  mandatory is that a Raven fan know his/her Raven history.  Bisciotti over-ruled DeCosta on Flacco. One has to know the background in order to post opinion with conviction.  In other words it's far easier to project where the team is heading, if one knows where it has been.

Giving credit for Mosely, the rest of that draft was ho hum at best.  If this year wasn't more effective, we are in for another long year. I don't like this draft but for one late round selection and the corner, but late rounds are not where Drafts are won or lost.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Danny D

[usmccharles]

5 hours ago, ravensdan said:

You point out Reid but KO was a round two choice and also Rick Wagner was a mid round pick. I don't think the draft has been our biggest issue. Biggest problem is letting young building blocks like KO and McPhee go. Those are big mistakes IMO. Very big. You don't let your young core go. You retain them regardless. Let some older players go if need be. Yes we've missed on some guys I wanted but let's be honest I wasn't that familiar with both these rocks McPhee and KO ahead of the draft. 

Well sometimes the salary cap has a big say in who we can keep and who we cant keep.  Also, over paying for players when your in a tight spot in the salary cap to begin with doesn't make much sense.  The contracts that McPhee and KO got are rather big compared to what we give out, I agree we should try to do what we can to keep players, I wanted to keep KO, we offered him a fair amount and he went and got quite a bit more from a team that has massive cap space.  We cant compete with some teams in that regard, we just cant.  Brandon Williams is coming up for a new contract and it wouldn't surprise me if he walked to FA because he knows he can get more from another team compared to what he can get here in Baltimore, that's just the facts. 

2 hours ago, Danny D said:

I think all Ravens fans can agree to disagree...but what is  mandatory is that a Raven fan know his/her Raven history.  Bisciotti over-ruled DeCosta on Flacco. One has to know the background in order to post opinion with conviction.  In other words it's far easier to project where the team is heading, if one knows where it has been.

Giving credit for Mosely, the rest of that draft was ho hum at best.  If this year wasn't more effective, we are in for another long year. I don't like this draft but for one late round selection and the corner, but late rounds are not where Drafts are won or lost.

Yea I get what your saying, and maybe the FO thought that Joe would still be there a tad later, we wont know.  But im happy we traded and got him of course. 

[ravensdan]

5 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Well sometimes the salary cap has a big say in who we can keep and who we cant keep.  Also, over paying for players when your in a tight spot in the salary cap to begin with doesn't make much sense.  The contracts that McPhee and KO got are rather big compared to what we give out, I agree we should try to do what we can to keep players, I wanted to keep KO, we offered him a fair amount and he went and got quite a bit more from a team that has massive cap space.  We cant compete with some teams in that regard, we just cant.  Brandon Williams is coming up for a new contract and it wouldn't surprise me if he walked to FA because he knows he can get more from another team compared to what he can get here in Baltimore, that's just the facts. 

Yea I get what your saying, and maybe the FO thought that Joe would still be there a tad later, we wont know.  But im happy we traded and got him of course. 

Yes but it was a mistake to not manage the cap and contracts to be able to keep these cornerstone type of players. Other cuts should have been made of need be.  It's not the same as letting go of someone like Ngata who is moving past his prime at a high figure. 

[usmccharles]

24 minutes ago, ravensdan said:

Yes but it was a mistake to not manage the cap and contracts to be able to keep these cornerstone type of players. Other cuts should have been made of need be.  It's not the same as letting go of someone like Ngata who is moving past his prime at a high figure. 

We have attempted to keep key guys, whether you agree with who it is beside the point, we have tried to keep corner stone guys.  Like some hated the Rice signing, I didn't.  Some hated the Webb and jimmy signing, I didn't.  Some hated the pitta signing, I did.  It goes both ways, you cant pick and chose when to use the "we don't keep our guys" argument.  We offered KO fair money, but he got over paid, what did you want to do there? And if we signed KO, no Weddle and Wallace for sure. 

[Purple_City39]

12 hours ago, ravensdan said:

You point out Reid but KO was a round two choice and also Rick Wagner was a mid round pick. I don't think the draft has been our biggest issue. Biggest problem is letting young building blocks like KO and McPhee go. Those are big mistakes IMO. Very big. You don't let your young core go. You retain them regardless. Let some older players go if need be. Yes we've missed on some guys I wanted but let's be honest I wasn't that familiar with both these rocks McPhee and KO ahead of the draft. 

If the Ravens had overpaid for KO and McPhee, there would be at least 4-5 other starters that wouldn't be there currently.  +2, -4 or 5.  KO's strength was at LG.  We didn't see much of him at LT to know how he'd hold up for a full season.  And if you do believe you saw enough in 4 games then you should really believe Jensen will be great with the same amount of time as he was better at LG than KO was at LT.  McPhee I can't speak on as we don't know how all these drafted pass rushers will do.  But if Correa and/or Kaufusi can add a consistent pass rush, then losing McPhee for cheaper options was a good thing

[Winchester]

4 hours ago, usmccharles said:

We have attempted to keep key guys, whether you agree with who it is beside the point, we have tried to keep corner stone guys.  Like some hated the Rice signing, I didn't.  Some hated the Webb and jimmy signing, I didn't.  Some hated the pitta signing, I did.  It goes both ways, you cant pick and chose when to use the "we don't keep our guys" argument.  We offered KO fair money, but he got over paid, what did you want to do there? And if we signed KO, no Weddle and Wallace for sure. 

Wouldn't you prefer keeping young in house talent over aging free agents looking for a contract at 30+??

[usmccharles]

34 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Wouldn't you prefer keeping young in house talent over aging free agents looking for a contract at 30+??

Absolutely.  But we have a salary cap and obviously it has to be taken into consideration.  I honestly don't think KO would of accepted anything we offered him because he knew other teams had more money to spend and would over pay, it would of made no sense to sign with us without testing the market.  And what happened....a team made him one of the top 5 most paid OL.  And, if we did sign KO, we aren't making other signings like Weddle and Wallace which i think will be great additions, i know your not a fan of the signings, but i think those two players can bring more to the team than what KO did.  We are good at making mid rounders into starters.  But i know your about to write a monster response in the form of one paragraph telling me how much of an Alpha male and how nasty KO was. 

Sadly, i see the same thing happening with Brandon Williams, after seeing Malik Jackson get a 100 million there is no reason for him not to test the market. 

Sometimes there just isnt enough money to go around, its business.  And sometimes a 30+ guy can pay massive dividends, SSr anyone?  D Smith? but this is another situation where you and i disagree.  So, in advance to hijacking this thread, i agree to disagree. 

[ravensdan]

On May 19, 2016 at 8:16 AM, usmccharles said:

We have attempted to keep key guys, whether you agree with who it is beside the point, we have tried to keep corner stone guys.  Like some hated the Rice signing, I didn't.  Some hated the Webb and jimmy signing, I didn't.  Some hated the pitta signing, I did.  It goes both ways, you cant pick and chose when to use the "we don't keep our guys" argument.  We offered KO fair money, but he got over paid, what did you want to do there? And if we signed KO, no Weddle and Wallace for sure. 

Well first off I understand the salary cap very well.Yes there are choices to make. I disagree with the choices of not retaining McPhee and KO.

First Pernell. I pulled up his Bear deal. He's earning a very manageable 7.75 mil average over his contract. He's a full time edge player with versatility inside. Honestly as good as Doom is if it really came down to that choice I keep the younger player just going into his prime. However I'm positive there were several other expendable choices there. 

 

Ko you bring up this year but that decision was made the year prior. He was limited by injury and we could have used that in contract negotiations. Now I will say that is a risk on our part. I.e. Pitta. IMO you keep the strength of the team intact and for this team it was the oline no doubt about it. Now I don't think this is a direct correlation but would I rather have a young great guard who is a monster and just getting into his prime or weddle and Wallace that's an easy choice. I do like the weddle signing as communication has been a big problem for the secondary and you need vet leadership but not over a young stud player. 

Edited May 21, 2016 by ravensdan

[JoeyFlex5]

2 hours ago, ravensdan said:

Well first off I understand the salary cap very well. Participate in a detailed salary cap game on this site every year. Yes there are choices to make. I disagree with the choices of not retaining McPhee and KO.

First Pernell. I pulled up his Bear deal. He's earning a very manageable 7.75 mil average over his contract. He's a full time edge player with versatility inside. Honestly as good as Doom is if it really came down to that choice I keep the younger player just going into his prime. However I'm positive there were several other expendable choices there. 

 

Ko you bring up this year but that decision was made the year prior. He was limited by injury and we could have used that in contract negotiations. Now I will say that is a risk on our part. I.e. Pitta. IMO you keep the strength of the team intact and for this team it was the oline no doubt about it. Now I don't think this is a direct correlation but would I rather have a young great guard who is a monster and just getting into his prime or weddle and Wallace that's an easy choice. I do like the weddle signing as communication has been a big problem for the secondary and you need vet leadership but not over a young stud player. 

I think mcphees long injury history played a part. There was a reason he didn't break out until his contract year and it's possible the ravens didn't think 7m a year for a guy who had 1 Put of 4 seasons healthy was a safe bet, 7m for a guy who is on the trainers table is very bad and were trying desperately to get away from that because it's destroyed this team recently. Monroe, suggs, Jimmy, pitta, and prior it was ngata, KO, webb, rice, we constantly have huge price tags on guys not taking the field and guys we desperately depend on.

 

When a focal point of your defense is commanding a big salary and is constantly injured, your defense becomes ruined because that price tag cripples your chances to offset the losses. We missed mcphee quite a bit but if we have him that contract and he was THE GUY and he had another injury plagued couple of years, then our defense would continue to be crippled for another few seasons until he either gets healthy or we get his contract off the books and replace him.