Revisiting the 2014 NFL Draft

[Tru11]

1 minute ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Right, and of course in that case Mack would have been better. But, the point is at the time of the trade you have no idea who the three 1st rounders on the other side of the equation would be... and right now we dont know what Perriman and Stanley are... so definitively saying Mack > Mosley, Perriman, and Stanley is premature at best, and utterly ridiculous at worst. Currently its inconclusive bc we dont know what 2 of the variables are.

 

Simple algebra. You can't say 10 > 5+a+b when you dont know the values of a and b.

you are the one who compared perriman to Odell Beckham.

i simply went with that and showed who else he can be compared to.

nothing more and nothing less.

[RavensDieHard21]

26 minutes ago, Jacquouille said:

Whatever we say, none of you would have taken that gamble that night. We got ourselves some very solid players in that draft, it was without a doubt an extremely important one for the future and when Jernigan reaches his ceiling (which he will) we'll all agree that Oz nailed it. 

I would have even if it was 1-4 or two firsts. I like Jernigan, but he has the same problems he had in college following him. Good but not great against the run, bigger lineman wash him out. Flashes quick hands and penetration skills, but they are not consistent. He is gassed late in the game often and the worst possible thing is that he commits terrible costly late hit penalties. He can obviously over come that, but he needs to get in better shape so that he is not go winded when we need him.

[RavensDieHard21]

21 minutes ago, redrum52 said:

Hate to be that guy, but Mack just was awarded All-Pro honors at 2 positions.  Some guys you know will have the talent.  When you see it, you take it if you can.  You can't always shop in the bargain bin if you want real change, especially with our top guys up there in age.  It will work some times and others it wont, but you need to be willing to take the risk.  We've seemed gun shy for awhile now.

agreed, I thought we should have made moves to grab Dez in 2010, but he went one spot ahead of us as we took the he's coming right to us approach lol I like Jimmy Smith in 11', so nbd. In 14' I was hoping we would move for Mack, then in 15' I was praying we would snag Peters who obviously looked like the best CB in the class. Our FO has worked wonders, but they need to break habits from time to time when you see a guy that can be built around for the next 10 years. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

18 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

you are the one who compared perriman to Odell Beckham.

i simply went with that and showed who else he can be compared to.

nothing more and nothing less.

Re-read. Didnt compare him to Beckham at all. The previous poster said Mack > Mosley and Perriman, PERIOD.

I said, WHAT IF Perriman = Beckham, would that equation still be true? Of course not, so it's not a PERIOD scenario.... maybe a comma or ellipses (quoted directly).

My post implied that there were any number of possible outcomes for Perriman, dont know how it could be taken any other way.

[BmoreBird22]

3 hours ago, Tru11 said:

 

SMH.

im going with what has been said in this thread and work with that.
its a what if thread , not what ozzie should have done.
OP had a random though so dont think this is a bash ozzie thread.
you are taking it way to serious for that.

yeah going into the finer details then things might not work out but then again things might.
there simply is no way of telling cause 1 thing done different will simply change everything from that point foward.

however my point is and still remains that mack is well worth mosley, jernigan and brooks for the simple fact he has brought more to the table so far as all 3 combined.

now are you going to argue that mack is worth less or are you going to bring in random stuff that has nothing to do with my point?

Considering that we had no idea that Mosley, Jernigan, and Brooks would get drafted, or any player in the future, it's silly to bring them into the conversation when considering the question.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

36 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

The hardest part to argue is what we would have given up. i heard the rumored trade on ESPN on draft night and cannot remember who said it. But someone commented saying that the Ravens inquired about moving up and the Raiders wanted their first slew of picks. I'm guessing 1-3 or 1-4, but I also seen rumors floating that it was two first rounders, who knows for sure outside of Raiders and Ravens FOs.

But the reason I said period was more a gesture of confidence than anything. Mack is ascending to a crazy level of play where CJ has taken a step back and Jernigan has the same problems he did in college and his rookie year. Perriman is a wild card, but I cannot give him credit yet as he hasn't even hit the field for a pre-season game. time will tell, but I wish the FO at times would switch its approach on draft night and in free agency. The whole, we'll be waiting right here thing doesn't always work.

 

Oh I know, my only issue was with the period part. As of now, sure its easy to say.

But Mosleys rookie year arguably topped Mack's. Mack clearly ascended to crazy heights last year, and may already be the premier edge defender in the league which is arguably more valuable than if Mosley were to ascend to similar heights at his position. Sophomore slumps are common though, so we'll see - I expect a rebound season from Mosley, especially with Daryl no longer here.

Especially though, without yet having any clue what Perriman will be, it's almost pointless to guess at which side of the equation is better. He could be anything from a complete bust, to a Hopkins/Beckham/Robinson type ascending superstar. And I think we'd all agree that if we the decision is between one elite defender vs getting a great young defender and premier pass catcher... im taking the 2 all day.

And theres the fact that in Jernigans rookie year, his pass rush productivity (on a per snap basis) was on par with JJ Watts though on a limited rotational basis. But that 4 game stretch he came in for Ngata, he was darn near dominant. If he can play close to that level consistently (which isnt an impossibility by any means) I may have a tough time saying I'd take Mack over just Mosley and Jernigan. As of today, its Mack for sure, but Mosley and Jernigan still have a whole lot of potential we may not have seen yet.

So, this is just a stretched out way of saying - there isnt a definitive answer yet. There are far too many variables (what if Mack has a career ending injury this year?, what if Mosley is Ray lewis and Jernigan rivals Donald in the coming years? And what if the pick compensation was three firsts plus... so Mosley, Perriman, Stanley, AND maybe Jernigan) to say anything as if its a "period" definitive statement is way premature at this point.

Edited May 17, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[elemento]

That draft was absolutely great. There's nothing to Fuss about. Ozzie nailed it. 

If we're going to play the hindsight game, then we could have drafted Rodgers instead of Mark Cleyton or Rob Gronkowski  and Navorro Bowman instead of Sergio Kindle and Ed Dickson. 

[usmccharles]

41 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

I think he makes a huge difference. Suggs goes down, Mack and Upshaw handle early downs. Doom comes in fresh on 3rd and we have two studs rushing the passer, we then do not have to blitz 6 guys and further expose the secondary, we legit with Mack could have rushed 4 and got constant pressure. 

Did you see what Mack did to Denver in week 16? He had 5 sacks, a strip in the end zone and completely shut their run game down. He demolished their tackles and even with double teams, he was rocking Osweiler. That constant pressure and presence immediately helps every single other player on the field.

I did, but its just not about Mack only on that team.  Carr, Cooper, Smith, Tuck, etc....The raiders were a good team last year, but it wasnt only because of Mack. 

14 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

I would have even if it was 1-4 or two firsts. I like Jernigan, but he has the same problems he had in college following him. Good but not great against the run, bigger lineman wash him out. Flashes quick hands and penetration skills, but they are not consistent. He is gassed late in the game often and the worst possible thing is that he commits terrible costly late hit penalties. He can obviously over come that, but he needs to get in better shape so that he is not go winded when we need him.

It is easy to say this now because we can see what Mack is, but its hard to justify making that gamble on the night of the draft.  There is nothing stating Mack will be this type of player on a piece of paper, there is no facts to back up how good a player is going to be from college to the NFL, we all know this, there for, it is a gamble.  Redskins gambled....it didnt work out, thankfully they were smart and still drafted a QB.  As for Jernigan..it was his second year....

10 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

agreed, I thought we should have made moves to grab Dez in 2010, but he went one spot ahead of us as we took the he's coming right to us approach lol I like Jimmy Smith in 11', so nbd. In 14' I was hoping we would move for Mack, then in 15' I was praying we would snag Peters who obviously looked like the best CB in the class. Our FO has worked wonders, but they need to break habits from time to time when you see a guy that can be built around for the next 10 years. 

This is what i dont get, we see and hear about the Ravens trying to move up and make trades but because we dont do it a certain way a fan likes, FO gets criticized.  They tried to get Ramsey, Dallas wanted too Much.  We tried to get Mack, Oakland wanted to Much.  Wanted Dez, and yea.  Traded up get Joe after trading down.  So we make moves but we cant just give a team what they want without taking in to account of what we are giving up, thats foolish. 

[usmccharles]

4 minutes ago, elemento said:

That draft was absolutely great. There's nothing to Fuss about. Ozzie nailed it. 

If we're going to play the hindsight game, then we could have drafted Rodgers instead of Mark Cleyton or Rob Gronkowski  and Navorro Bowman instead of Sergio Kindle and Ed Dickson. 

As you will soon learn on this board, some on here will find away to complain about winning a game, literally. 

Hindsight game is always a failure, for every single team.  Thats why the more picks the better. 

[berad]

8 hours ago, usmccharles said:

I think the problem with people wanting this key guy, one big cornerstone guy (im at fault of this) is because we were blessed with Ray Lewis for 17 years.  The man is considered the best leader in sports of all time by many analysts and players.  But it spoiled us in a way, a player like that barely ever comes around, yes there are the Lukes and the Macks and the Rays talent wise... but who Ray was as a person and a leader really skews it for some fans.

Perfectly said. Ray Lewis is an icon and a legend. Who else in the league means and produces as much for their team as Ray did? You'd be hard pressed to find non-QBs who do so - even going back over the whole history of the league.

[Jacquouille]

47 minutes ago, berad said:

Perfectly said. Ray Lewis is an icon and a legend. Who else in the league means and produces as much for their team as Ray did? You'd be hard pressed to find non-QBs who do so - even going back over the whole history of the league.

Bryan Dawkins is the only name that could come close (and it's still a far cry for Ray Ray). In today's NFL I don't see any player that could compare, Willis included.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

6 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Falcons were a bad team because they didn't have draft picks to add more players, again using the hindsight game goes both ways because look at the players they could of drafted if they didn't make that traded, especially since Alshon Jeffery would of been there with their 1st round pick (22) still.  I don't understand how you can make the argument that Julio has made a world of difference there, having won 1 playoff game since his acquisition.  Yes he may put up huge stats but how many teams with elite WRs are in the SB? 

Falcons gave up their 27th, 59th, 124th, year after 1st and 4th.  The team wasn't a WR away from winning a championship, obviously because they haven't.  So lets use the hindsight game like everyone likes to do here and say they didn't make the trade, they could of ended up with: Muhammad Wilkerson, Randall Cobb, Julius Thomas, Dont'a Hightower, Malik Jackson.... but that's COULD have.  They also could have had busts with all those picks, and Julio could of been a bust as well.  With more picks, the better chance you have of hitting on a guy. 

In 2013 Julio Jones played in 5 games, that's 1 more win than the Falcons had that entire year.  That's what happens when you lack depth. 

The Ravens have tried to trade up, but just because they don't means its a failure?  They have to have some type of line where its too much to give up.  I agree if you like a guy you should go get him, but to give all that up just for one guy is too much.  We got Mosely who isn't going to be what Mack is, but he is a great piece to be apart of a team.  The value of getting Mosley at 17 is far better than giving up 5 picks to get Mack (imo). 

Lets say we gave up what the Falcons did to get Mack, we wouldn't have gotten Mosley, Jernigan, We traded our 4th rounder to someone so add another player from somewhere in (maybe next year), then the next year we wouldn't of selected BP or one of the next three: Buck Allen, Z smith, Tray Walker.  All of which are contributors except the obvious (RIP). 

I don't know about college players as much as you do, but when we selected Upshaw, I was very unhappy, the guy just didn't look like a football player to me.  And ive said the FO missed on that pick numerous times.  You are right though, some fans will blindly give praise to the FO, I however like to think im objective, maybe more on the optimistic side but still.  Its all just opinion, and mine is that I don't think he would of been worth it considering the lack of talent everywhere else.  You yourself said we lack play makers, plural. 

This. Preach.

You don't trade your entire future for one guy period. And fwiw. I hated the Upshaw selection at the time. He was always good at one facet and one only.

 

2014 class has turned out very good for us. And people are complaining. Smh

[DenverRaven]

1 hour ago, usmccharles said:

As you will soon learn on this board, some on here will find away to complain about winning a game, literally. 

Hindsight game is always a failure, for every single team.  Thats why the more picks the better. 

Heh, isn't that the truth. Some are even haunted by decisions the front office makes.

[Winchester]

32 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

This. Preach.

You don't trade your entire future for one guy period. And fwiw. I hated the Upshaw selection at the time. He was always good at one facet and one only.

 

2014 class has turned out very good for us. And people are complaining. Smh

You guys seem oblivious to ravens just finished 5-11. Some people accept mediocrity. Again not the entire future. 3Draft picks in one draft. 2 defensive players coming off average years and a below average TE. The player ravens could of won everybody is picking him to be the best defensive player in the game this yr. Likely an all time great. He is a top 3 edge rusher,elite agsinst the run and can cover as well as any lb in the game. But particular dedicated fans are going to say ravens management makes all the right decisions. Mack could get 30 sacks and unanimous league mvp this year while Mosley/jernigan again struggle and it was the right decision to not trade up for him. The 3 #1 picks is ludicrous. Look up info there were legit negotiations. Do you believe there would of even been any talks if the price was 3 round1 picks?? You would never have heard about any interest or trade talks. Management is not going to say the asking price cuz it would make them look terrible!!  If it was ridiculous asking price it would be public.

[RavensDieHard21]

3 hours ago, elemento said:

That draft was absolutely great. There's nothing to Fuss about. Ozzie nailed it. 

If we're going to play the hindsight game, then we could have drafted Rodgers instead of Mark Cleyton or Rob Gronkowski  and Navorro Bowman instead of Sergio Kindle and Ed Dickson. 

I am not saying it was a bad draft, in fact it was solid, but for the sake of it being slow season for our fan board, I decided to bring up this topic. 

As far as hindsight, what you just stated is irrelevant. It is not like I am stating man we should have grabbed Gronk in that 2010 draft! or, jeez what were we thinking letting Antonio Brown slip to the Steelers in the 6th round! What I am bringing up is a potential deal that could have happened as ozzie did inquire about what the Raiders would want to trade back. Mack coming out wasn't a mysteriously good player, he was an animal. NCAA record breaker who dominated at Buffalo which was his knock, yet whenever they player premier talent, such as Ohio State, Mack dominated them too. 

It is just for the sake of an interesting conversation and to see if we think it is better for the front office to be more aggressive at times.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 hour ago, Winchester said:

You guys seem oblivious to ravens just finished 5-11. Some people accept mediocrity. Again not the entire future. 3Draft picks in one draft. 2 defensive players coming off average years and a below average TE. The player ravens could of won everybody is picking him to be the best defensive player in the game this yr. Likely an all time great. He is a top 3 edge rusher,elite agsinst the run and can cover as well as any lb in the game. But particular dedicated fans are going to say ravens management makes all the right decisions. Mack could get 30 sacks and unanimous league mvp this year while Mosley/jernigan again struggle and it was the right decision to not trade up for him. The 3 #1 picks is ludicrous. Look up info there were legit negotiations. Do you believe there would of even been any talks if the price was 3 round1 picks?? You would never have heard about any interest or trade talks. Management is not going to say the asking price cuz it would make them look terrible!!  If it was ridiculous asking price it would be public.

Are you aware that the Raiders finished just 7-9 with relatively full health? While we were missing for at least part of the season Suggs, Flacco, Forsett, S. Smith, Perriman, Monroe, Zuttah, Pitta, Gillmore, and half of the DB depth chart.

It's not accepting mediocrity, it's understanding that it's darn near impossible to be a contender for 8-10 straight years without a blip on the radar, and feeling content knowing the circumstances of the 5-11 year along with the plan thats being executed currently and for the future.

It's really easy to love what the Raiders and Jacksonvilles of the world are doing now, after 10 straight years of Top 5 picks and $2 billion in free cap space because theyve been terrible forever. Let's see how they do when its time to retain the difference makers and having to pick in the back half of the draft for a couple years.

 

The Ravens do what they do just as good if not better than 95% of the NFL. The only contenders in that regard are the Patriots (which remains to be seen what happens when Bradys gone, we'll get a taste for 4 games), Seattle (and we'll see what happens in the next cpl years now that theyve had to pay their players), and Denver (again recently... lets see sustained success routinely picking in the 20's).

To accuse a franchise that's had 1 losing season in 8 years of "accepting mediocrity" is one of the dumbest accusation ive heard in a bit. Seems theyre only accepting contention.... and what theyve been doing has kept us there routinely. IF, again IFFFFFFF losing becomes the routine THEN and only then will I, or anyone, have the right to question their overall methods. Question a pick or decision here or there - fine. But AFC Championship Games have been the norm around here for the better part of a decade.

And if we're right back to contending this year - how can we question the decision-makers? Oh, because there are teams that win the SB every year? I forgot, thats a reasonable standard.

[RavensDieHard21]

4 hours ago, usmccharles said:

I did, but its just not about Mack only on that team.  Carr, Cooper, Smith, Tuck, etc....The raiders were a good team last year, but it wasnt only because of Mack. 

It is easy to say this now because we can see what Mack is, but its hard to justify making that gamble on the night of the draft.  There is nothing stating Mack will be this type of player on a piece of paper, there is no facts to back up how good a player is going to be from college to the NFL, we all know this, there for, it is a gamble.  Redskins gambled....it didnt work out, thankfully they were smart and still drafted a QB.  As for Jernigan..it was his second year....

This is what i dont get, we see and hear about the Ravens trying to move up and make trades but because we dont do it a certain way a fan likes, FO gets criticized.  They tried to get Ramsey, Dallas wanted too Much.  We tried to get Mack, Oakland wanted to Much.  Wanted Dez, and yea.  Traded up get Joe after trading down.  So we make moves but we cant just give a team what they want without taking in to account of what we are giving up, thats foolish. 

I get what you are saying lol but the Ravens consistently offer these deals that teams don't even find enticing because that pick does not make them feel it is worth passing on that player, such as us offering a 4th to Dallas, when they wanted a third. I like Stanley so it is not the end of the world. In 2010, Ozzie offered a 4th to get Dez and Jerry laughed again and hung the phone up. Sometimes these manilla deals could be given a little spice by swapping picks in later rounds or adding another future mid rounder. 

[RavensDieHard21]

3 hours ago, berad said:

Perfectly said. Ray Lewis is an icon and a legend. Who else in the league means and produces as much for their team as Ray did? You'd be hard pressed to find non-QBs who do so - even going back over the whole history of the league.

JJ Watt and Luke Kuechly are on the rise, but Ray is historically iconic. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

13 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

I get what you are saying lol but the Ravens consistently offer these deals that teams don't even find enticing because that pick does not make them feel it is worth passing on that player, such as us offering a 4th to Dallas, when they wanted a third. I like Stanley so it is not the end of the world. In 2010, Ozzie offered a 4th to get Dez and Jerry laughed again and hung the phone up. Sometimes these manilla deals could be given a little spice by swapping picks in later rounds or adding another future mid rounder. 

Well, faulting the Ravens for the deals not being enticing might be misplaced.

Dont you think the Raiders had a pretty good feeling what Mack was? And they werent in a position where they had to give anything up to take him. Its exactly like youre saying with your argument.... well duh in hindsight we shouldve traded up for Mack, because Mack > player a, b and c.

Well... for the Raiders to accept our trade up offer, they wouldve on draft night have to have said ok, Ravens offer in picks > Mack.

And if your argument is we shouldve done it bc it was so obvious he was a cant miss talent, dont you think the Raiders knew that? So, logic tells you that any trade would have to include enough picks for them to feel very confident they were on the winning end - otherwise stay and take Mack. And that's where the ravens are good, we're not going to trade a haul of picks that is clearly more valuable than the player theyre targeting. If you're going to trade up, you want to win the trade.

And most teams arent going to accept your offer unless they feel like theyre winning the trade. Nothing wrong with the Ravens intelligently drawing a line in the sand and sticking to it. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

13 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

JJ Watt and Luke Kuechly are on the rise, but Ray is historically iconic. 

I would say that neither comes even close from a leadership, preparation and motivational stand point.

[Deflated Football]

10 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I would say that neither comes even close from a leadership, preparation and motivational stand point.

Exactly. No one will ever come close IMO

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

5 hours ago, Winchester said:

You guys seem oblivious to ravens just finished 5-11. Some people accept mediocrity. Again not the entire future. 3Draft picks in one draft. 2 defensive players coming off average years and a below average TE. The player ravens could of won everybody is picking him to be the best defensive player in the game this yr. Likely an all time great. He is a top 3 edge rusher,elite agsinst the run and can cover as well as any lb in the game. But particular dedicated fans are going to say ravens management makes all the right decisions. Mack could get 30 sacks and unanimous league mvp this year while Mosley/jernigan again struggle and it was the right decision to not trade up for him. The 3 #1 picks is ludicrous. Look up info there were legit negotiations. Do you believe there would of even been any talks if the price was 3 round1 picks?? You would never have heard about any interest or trade talks. Management is not going to say the asking price cuz it would make them look terrible!!  If it was ridiculous asking price it would be public.

And you seem to be oblivious as to why we were in that position in the first place. Departures and depth that couldn't have possibly be fixed in one season, in combination with injuries. 

 

So let's run through the ideal scenario. A majority of draft picks for an elite prospect(which Mack was)  in the previous two drafts. Then we have the likes of Torrey, McPhee, Ngata, and others leave while Pitta gets hurt again. In all likelihood in 2015 we don't have the ability to replace most of that with that draft, as some of those picks have undoubtedly been traded to obtain Mack. So still less depth. When Suggs goes down, Mack steps into his wings, but when the rest of the players start dropping and we have less depth, we're more screwed than before. Mack alone wouldn't have saved our season. We would probably be in a worse position due to lack of depth everywhere else. So again, the Atlanta Falcons effect. Lack of depth along the defensive was bad with all the draft picks made. What makes you think it'd be any better with less? Sure, we'd have a bonafida superstar, but the rest of the trenches would be weaker(no Davis or Jernigan in all likelihood), probably no WR. So yeah. Not trading up wasn't a terrible thing to do. 

 

Mack is a top 3 defender. Highly doubt he'll be better than Watt but he's damn good. He was an elite prospect too. But what makes you think that the Raiders would possibly want to pass up on him if that was the case? We'd have to sell the farm to obtain a guy like him, and Ozzie down the line probably realized that they wanted a lot more than we were willing to give. For a good reason too. Teams who sell the farm for one player in the draft seldom have success. 

 

Let's get this straight. Mosely didn't struggle. He's not even as bad in coverage as you proclaim. He needs to improve, but the rest of his game combined with his high football IQ makes him a cornerstone. Jernigan is a much needed dlinemen who's damn good vs. the run(something in which is necessary in the league even with the amount of passing going on) and is an inconsistent pass rusher. He didn't struggle. Crockett is overrated. I've said it. But he's not below average. He's not Jimmy Graham, but he's been a pretty good, rock solid TE for us who's a good blocker and can straight up power through defenders.  The amount of depth and surrounding help we got will only help these guys. Because Mosley is probably the second best player on the defense right now. Which is fine. There are only 3 mlbs I'd take over him WITH his coverage struggles. Which is saying a lot. Jernigan is a key piece too as a good run defender and a good pass rusher for a 3-4 DE. If he becomes consistent in any capacity than we've got another cornerstone. 

 

Mack is a better player than both undoubtedly. Not arguing that. But "us not having a cornerstone" isn't the reason why we failed this year. Injures and lack of depth screwed us over. Why it's so hard for people to understand that is beyond me. We had a core of Williams(a should've been pro bowler), Mosely(2nd team all pro his rookie year. You can't refute that), Jimmy(who was coming off of an injury and was very good the two seasons before), Hill(who payed well before his druggie habits kicked back in), Dumervil(who is probably still the best situational pass rusher in the NFL), and Jernigan who's a very good run defender and when he's actually on his a-game is a nightmare for QBs to block. We didn't have depth. Take out Mosley and Jernigan and swap them for solely Mack suddenly the core becomes depleted with even less depth. We went and got depth via the draft all over the defense. Correa, Kaufausi, Henry, Judon, Young. Positions where we needed it(especially pass rusher). 

 

Not to mention... You're missing a critical part. We managed to stick it out there with a few good teams, and until Joe went down every game was close. Let's put it this way. You get a healthy Suggs back. Even if he's not the player he was before, he still provides enough veteran savvy that he in all likelihood will make an impact. You get Steve Back who does some things that only a veteran can provide. Might not be as fast but his route running and toughness will still make him valuable. And then you proceed to add more pass rush to a team that stuck it out in every game(sure, we lost most of those games but we came close), and add more depth to a team that sorely lacked it. And you're telling me we're in trouble. 

 

Point is. CJ and Jernigan are essential to the team. We gave them surrounding talent. Not having Mack is not the reason we failed. It would've helped a little bit but that wasn't the overall issue. We addressed the overall issue. This team has depth again. It may not help immediantly but it should help us in the future. Mack is an elite player. But he wouldn't have solved our problems last season. no one man would have. 

 

 

[Guest]

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 0:18 AM, Winchester said:

It wasn't 3 round1 picks. The asking price was actually reasonable. It was a round1-3. Decosta is very cheap at dealing picks. Nobody woukd actually consider what he actually offers. He did not want to part with a round 3 pick to get back into round1 and round2. Ravens usually fail at trade up attempts. Ozzie and Decosta did not want to part with a round pick to trade up for Joe Cool. Ozzie and Decosta were content to draft the next best qb if a rival team took Joe cool. Biscotti ordered the trade up. Hevwas going to risk losing their top rated qb over a round pick!! A bargain by the  standards of what teams are trading to move up to get a franchise qb.

It was a good draft but Crockett Jernigan and Mosley are all replaceable. Game changing rare talents like Mack are not easily replaced!! Game changers are like qbs. You are not winning a championship without a couple of them. So may as well take some chances to get game changing  players with rare skills

I see they "negged" you for making straight up, factual points.  DeCosta is flat out making my head explode. We cannot allow that man to hold our future in his hands.  DeCosta is a Pick Hoarder.  The pick hoarding phenomena develops due to insecurity in being able to evaluate a stud player and go after him. A Pick Hoarder calculates that he is not sure of a selection, (especially early round selections), and its thus better to trade for more picks with the hope that a selection can be wrong and you can still get lucky with a "Hoard" selection.  It is the epitome of, "I don't trust myself" and I hope they don't see through me.

The Flacco ordeal, taking pride in losing guys, the recent drafts and I agree entirely with you that Jernigan, Urshel and others are not stars and are not draft coups, all are evidence that DeCosta is in way over his head.  

In the end we have quite the pair. The "He ain't what he use to be" and "The never was".

 

 

[usmccharles]

12 hours ago, Winchester said:

You guys seem oblivious to ravens just finished 5-11. Some people accept mediocrity. Again not the entire future. 3Draft picks in one draft. 2 defensive players coming off average years and a below average TE. The player ravens could of won everybody is picking him to be the best defensive player in the game this yr. Likely an all time great. He is a top 3 edge rusher,elite agsinst the run and can cover as well as any lb in the game. But particular dedicated fans are going to say ravens management makes all the right decisions. Mack could get 30 sacks and unanimous league mvp this year while Mosley/jernigan again struggle and it was the right decision to not trade up for him. The 3 #1 picks is ludicrous. Look up info there were legit negotiations. Do you believe there would of even been any talks if the price was 3 round1 picks?? You would never have heard about any interest or trade talks. Management is not going to say the asking price cuz it would make them look terrible!!  If it was ridiculous asking price it would be public.

Here is the problem.  You and I think 2 others are looking at making the trade for who Mack is now while in reality on draft night, as much as people think he was an elite prospect you don't know. 

2 hours ago, Danny D said:

I see they "negged" you for making straight up, factual points.  DeCosta is flat out making my head explode. We cannot allow that man to hold our future in his hands.  DeCosta is a Pick Hoarder.  The pick hoarding phenomena develops due to insecurity in being able to evaluate a stud player and go after him. A Pick Hoarder calculates that he is not sure of a selection, (especially early round selections), and its thus better to trade for more picks with the hope that a selection can be wrong and you can still get lucky with a "Hoard" selection.  It is the epitome of, "I don't trust myself" and I hope they don't see through me.

The Flacco ordeal, taking pride in losing guys, the recent drafts and I agree entirely with you that Jernigan, Urshel and others are not stars and are not draft coups, all are evidence that DeCosta is in way over his head.  

In the end we have quite the pair. The "He ain't what he use to be" and "The never was".

Every single thing he posted was literally opinion based....not backed up by one single link to a 'fact'. 

 

 

[Winchester]

19 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Here is the problem.  You and I think 2 others are looking at making the trade for who Mack is now while in reality on draft night, as much as people think he was an elite prospect you don't know. 

Every single thing he posted was literally opinion based....not backed up by one single link to a 'fact'. 

 

 

Opinion?? Majority of this board doesn't agree with just about EVERY move front office makes?? of course, it comforts people to think decosta made the right moves cuz then it can be accepted ravens will contend for a championship. Fact ravens just finished 5-11.  And were losing games with ss, flacco,forsett. So the injury excuse is not plausible. If ravens have a good year it will be cuz of this draft class. Players like Kufusi, Henry,Dixon,correa,young, and moore. Not a 37 yr old we coming off achilles,Suggs coming off achilles again,forsett.

[usmccharles]

3 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Opinion?? Majority of this board doesn't agree with just about EVERY move front office makes?? of course, it comforts people to think decosta made the right moves cuz then it can be accepted ravens will contend for a championship. Fact ravens just finished 5-11.  And were losing games with ss, flacco,forsett. So the injury excuse is not plausible. If ravens have a good year it will be cuz of this draft class. Players like Kufusi, Henry,Dixon,correa,young, and moore. Not a 37 yr old we coming off achilles,Suggs coming off achilles again,forsett.

So your going to find a way to complain that we have a good year because this draft class performs?  sounds about right.  We had a bad year, big deal, it happens.  Do I want it to, obviously not, but logic says that its going to happen here and there.  You have your opinion while others have different, its the way it goes.  I don't agree with every move the FO makes, but im not going to sit here and say I know more than our FO, or that you do.  No one here does, hence why we are on a message board praising/complaining. 

[Winchester]

35 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

So your going to find a way to complain that we have a good year because this draft class performs?  sounds about right.  We had a bad year, big deal, it happens.  Do I want it to, obviously not, but logic says that its going to happen here and there.  You have your opinion while others have different, its the way it goes.  I don't agree with every move the FO makes, but im not going to sit here and say I know more than our FO, or that you do.  No one here does, hence why we are on a message board praising/complaining. 

Sometimes I believe you are drunk when you post. Cuz you imply things thst are not said. Overall you may not know more but it is watching athletes perform. Anybody could end up being a better judge. No different from anything else. Some people are naturally better. Just like driving, computer hacking, carpentry,bodybuilding,modeling.You can drive for years and a new driver is better. Just like rookies that outperform vets. Just like talented scouts and coaches are held back. In football. In every draft since 2010 I would compare ravens picks to players i wanted. My current job couple yrs back a total moron overlooked me for a promotion. I knew I was better. But this ditzy moron thought her fellow moron was better. Long story short. Less than 2 yrs later I was begged by corporate to train the people for the position I went for. So the best for a position is not always the one hired. Am I saying I could be a gm. Of course not!! But when I decide on a particular player good or bad. I'm right 99% of the time. However I could never make judgements on 100s of players in one draft. which is essential for a scout/gm. Fans are correct over gms quite often!! Most gms are there cuz he played before or was family of somebody to give him a shot. Some GMs thought Gore and Johnson could still be impact players and played big $$ lol

[usmccharles]

33 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Sometimes I believe you are drunk when you post. Cuz you imply things thst are not said. Overall you may not know more but it is watching athletes perform. Anybody could end up being a better judge. No different from anything else. Some people are naturally better. Just like driving, computer hacking, carpentry,bodybuilding,modeling.You can drive for years and a new driver is better. Just like rookies that outperform vets. Just like talented scouts and coaches are held back. In football. In every draft since 2010 I would compare ravens picks to players i wanted. My current job couple yrs back a total moron overlooked me for a promotion. I knew I was better. But this ditzy moron thought her fellow moron was better. Long story short. Less than 2 yrs later I was begged by corporate to train the people for the position I went for. So the best for a position is not always the one hired. Am I saying I could be a gm. Of course not!! But when I decide on a particular player good or bad. I'm right 99% of the time. However I could never make judgements on 100s of players in one draft. which is essential for a scout/gm. Fans are correct over gms quite often!! Most gms are there cuz he played before or was family of somebody to give him a shot. Some GMs thought Gore and Johnson could still be impact players and played big $$ lol

I sure could use some vodka right about now, but for some reason that is looked down upon when dealing with 50million dollar aircraft.

You know, you do make some good points and some I have to agree with.  The notion around the league is that Oz is still one of the best and that is said by numerous outlets. I've never even met a fan from another team that said Oz is overrated, ironically its Baltimore fans which is about a group of 5 maybe on here.   And its fine that you guys feel that way, I don't nor do some others but yet it sparks a huge debate about others having different opinions.

Sometimes you are pretty outlandish on some things you say, but sometimes you have valid points, cant argue that.  But just because I disagree with what you say about Oz doesn't mean I just follow blindly, i've been critical of the FO before and most likely will continue to do so when I think it warrants it.  Overall I believe the good out weighs the bad with our FO.  Now if we have another losing season and Stanley is a bust, then maybe things should be changed, but doing so based on a draft a day afterwards is just a tad premature (cant remember who said it on here). 

Back to the discussion of Mack: I stand strong on my point you don't give up that many draft picks for one player, it never works out, Just like I don't think the trade worked out for the Falcons imho.  I have asked you numerous times if you have any source or links about what the Raiders wanted and you haven't gave me anything, because I am interested.  I think the most I would of given up is swapping our first round picks and a 1 and 3....and I wouldn't feel good about it

Edited May 18, 2016 by usmccharles

[Winchester]

9 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

I sure could use some vodka right about now, but for some reason that is looked down upon when dealing with 50million dollar aircraft.

You know, you do make some good points and some I have to agree with.  The notion around the league is that Oz is still one of the best and that is said by numerous outlets. I've never even met a fan from another team that said Oz is overrated, ironically its Baltimore fans which is about a group of 5 maybe on here.   And its fine that you guys feel that way, I don't nor do some others but yet it sparks a huge debate about others having different opinions.

Sometimes you are pretty outlandish on some things you say, but sometimes you have valid points, cant argue that.  But just because I disagree with what you say about Oz doesn't mean I just follow blindly, i've been critical of the FO before and most likely will continue to do so when I think it warrants it.  Overall I believe the good out weighs the bad with our FO.  Now if we have another losing season and Stanley is a bust, then maybe things should be changed, but doing so based on a draft a day afterwards is just a tad premature (cant remember who said it on here). 

Back to the discussion of Mack: I stand strong on my point you don't give up that many draft picks for one player, it never works out, Just like I don't think the trade worked out for the Falcons imho.  I have asked you numerous times if you have any source or links about what the Raiders wanted and you haven't gave me anything, because I am interested.  I think the most I would of given up is swapping our first round picks and a 1 and 3....

But I never once said I would give up 3 round1 picks for mack. Or what Brown's shelled out for jones. I said ravens should of traded the round1-3 picks or 2 round 1 picks. My opinion Mack will be the best defensive player in the nfl this yr. Maybe the best player overall. And will be compared to Taylor as an all time great defensive player.I loved Mack in the draft cuz he reminded me of  my fav ravens defensive player ever. Peter Boulware. If not for injuries he would be ravens sack leader. Many fans forget how awesome Boulware is at his best injury free!! Spence reminds me a little of Boulware. That is one player I wanted ravens to draft. He and Reshard Robinson round4. And Demarcus Robinson I liked to in round4. I like Chris Moore to. I just hope Moore plays as well as Robinson. I'm pulling for Wallace to be a bust and Chris Moore to be a draft Steal as a rookie. So ravens have young stud receivers to build a juggernaut. He plays faster than his 40time. ideal for campanaro perriman and chris moore to be ravens best receivers. Would be cool for that trio to step up!! Then Dixon/buck allen with their receiving skills and max is the young talent at te

[usmccharles]

4 minutes ago, Winchester said:

But I never once said I would give up 3 round1 picks for mack. Or what Brown's shelled out for jones. I said ravens should of traded the round1-3 picks or 2 round 1 picks. My opinion Mack will be the best defensive player in the nfl this yr. Maybe the best player overall. And will be compared to Taylor as an all time great defensive player.I loved Mack in the draft cuz he reminded me of  my fav ravens defensive player ever. Peter Boulware. If not for injuries he would be ravens sack leader. Many fans forget how awesome Boulware is at his best injury free!! Spence reminds me a little of Boulware. That is one player I wanted ravens to draft. He and Reshard Robinson round4. And Demarcus Robinson I liked to in round4. I like Chris Moore to. I just hope Moore plays as well as Robinson. I'm pulling for Wallace to be a bust and Chris Moore to be a draft Steal as a rookie. So ravens have young stud receivers to build a juggernaut. He plays faster than his 40time. ideal for campanaro perriman and chris moore to be ravens best receivers. Would be cool for that trio to step up!! Then Dixon/buck allen with their receiving skills and max is the young talent at te

I cant recall at the moment, I just remember discussing the Falcons trade and saying it was a mistake and you saying it wasn't, I was just going off of that.  So you are saying you would of gave up rounds 1,2,3 for mack? 

No links?