Revisiting the 2014 NFL Draft

[ludy51]

Just now, GrimCoconut said:

I'd trade all 3 for Mack but knowing that decision on draft day I'd say it's a bad move. As a result I can't very well change my opinion now. 

I dont know about mosley but Jernigan and Brooks sure

[RavensDieHard21]

"Khalil Mack is an American football defensive end and outside linebacker for the Oakland Raiders of the National Football League. He played college football at Buffalo, and was drafted by the Raiders fifth overall in the 2014 NFL Draft. Mack holds the all-time NCAA record for forced fumbles and is also tied for career tackles for loss in the NCAA. In 2015, he became the first, first-team All-Pro in NFL history to be elected in two different positions in the same year." 

"Mack has quickly become one of the most complete and destructive players in football after only his second season. He also posted 54 defensive stops, which led the league among edge defenders." - PFF top 101 list

[GrimCoconut]

2 minutes ago, ludy51 said:

I dont know about mosley but Jernigan and Brooks sure

As much as I love Mosley I would've. Mack is too dominant a player. 

[ludy51]

Just now, GrimCoconut said:

As much as I love Mosley I would've. Mack is too dominant a player. 

Then who manns the middle?

[GrimCoconut]

3 minutes ago, ludy51 said:

Then who manns the middle?

Another LB we drafted? If you get Mack you have to give up Mosley. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. 

[RavensDieHard21]

6 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I don't think we were a piece away because if we were we wouldn't have taken such a step back this past season. If we needed any position it was CB since lack of depth there killed us.

I agree, CB has been our achilles for multiple seasons now, but the ol' saying I think applies here. A scary pass rush can mask even some of the worst secondaries, with less time and a non stop motor animal shutting down the run, Mack could make a difference. 

I think we took a step back this season because of two major things, the Suggs ripple effect and the offense lacking speed/ ability to punch the ball in the end zone instead of settling for three. Obviously injuries too. But If Mack is there, Doom stays in as a rotational rusher, meaning a fresher 3rd down pass rush, our defense is getting off the field. When offenses elect not to run, Upshaw then doesn't become such a big deal when Mack rotates with him at times. Once Doom became an every down rusher and there was no other rusher, we had to send blitzes to apply pressure and we had a lack of defenders to cover the field. Literally all of that gets solved or at least minimized by another animal waiting to go.

[ludy51]

1 minute ago, GrimCoconut said:

Another LB we drafted? If you get Mack you have to give up Mosley. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. 

So we don't get Mack

[GrimCoconut]

Just now, RavensDieHard21 said:

I agree, CB has been our achilles for multiple seasons now, but the ol' saying I think applies here. A scary pass rush can mask even some of the worst secondaries, with less time and a non stop motor animal shutting down the run, Mack could make a difference. 

I think we took a step back this season because of two major things, the Suggs ripple effect and the offense lacking speed/ ability to punch the ball in the end zone instead of settling for three. Obviously injuries too. But If Mack is there, Doom stays in as a rotational rusher, meaning a fresher 3rd down pass rush, our defense is getting off the field. When offenses elect not to run, Upshaw then doesn't become such a big deal when Mack rotates with him at times. Once Doom became an every down rusher and there was no other rusher, we had to send blitzes to apply pressure and we had a lack of defenders to cover the field. Literally all of that gets solved or at least minimized by another animal waiting to go.

Yes, a monstrous pass rush can mask a weak secondary--unless you play the Patriots who had a quick release QB to get the ball out faster than your pass rushers can get to the QB, in which case you must have a capable CB to shutdown the short game, which is why we failed in 2014...pass rush was great

[RavensDieHard21]

8 minutes ago, ludy51 said:

Then who manns the middle?

I love Mosley, he is great, but he is a bit more expendable than Mack. Now if he had Luke Kuechly like coverage skills and leadership than maybe a different story, but finding a run stuffing, instinctive LB is easier to find in the draft or FA than a pass rusher who can dominate at DE or OLB and can shut down the run while being able to pin his ears back and wreck your offense.

[GrimCoconut]

2 minutes ago, ludy51 said:

So we don't get Mack

So you'd give up a guy who may be the best and most complete defensive player in the NFL for an elite MLB who has some struggles in coverage? I love Mosley and I don't think he's as bad as some make him out to be in coverage but this shouldn't be a question. Mack is a straight up better player. 

[ludy51]

We'd be too weak in the middle

[RavensDieHard21]

4 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

Yes, a monstrous pass rush can mask a weak secondary--unless you play the Patriots who had a quick release QB to get the ball out faster than your pass rushers can get to the QB, in which case you must have a capable CB to shutdown the short game, which is why we failed in 2014...pass rush was great

I agree, but we really didn't have a chance at a lock down CB that year sadly. Jimmy was there until his injury mid-season ugh. So depressing lol But I mean, if you look at 2015, Pats despite their quick release offense, were left to watch Brady get hits 20 times because how fierce and quick of a rush they had. But the coverage was a huge part of that too so I see the point.

[RavensDieHard21]

4 minutes ago, ludy51 said:

We'd be too weak in the middle

Via the run game or in coverage?

[ludy51]

Just now, RavensDieHard21 said:

Via the run game or in coverage?

Both.

When Brandon Williams leaves via free agency. whos gonna stop us from getting destroyed up the middle?

[Tru11]

3 minutes ago, ludy51 said:

Both.

When Brandon Williams leaves via free agency. whos gonna stop us from getting destroyed up the middle?

Carl Davis or we get a NT?

i hope you dont think mosley can fill in what Williams does lol.

Mack >>> mosley , jernigan,brooks.

[ludy51]

1 minute ago, Tru11 said:

Carl Davis or we get a NT?

i hope you dont think mosley can fill in what Williams does lol.

Mack >>> mosley , jernigan,brooks.

Carl is very inconsistent

and "some other NT"? Really? that's your plan?

Mack wouldn't be used much simply because of the massive exploitable weaknesses in the other areas of our defense

[RavensDieHard21]

8 minutes ago, ludy51 said:

Both.

When Brandon Williams leaves via free agency. whos gonna stop us from getting destroyed up the middle?

Davis and Henry will help. Run stuffers are not too hard to find and groom for the Ravens as history has shown.

[ludy51]

I would LOVE to have Mack here, but the repercussions are just too big

[GrimCoconut]

13 minutes ago, ludy51 said:

Both.

When Brandon Williams leaves via free agency. whos gonna stop us from getting destroyed up the middle?

First, who said Brandon Williams is leaving in FA? I think he's a guy we keep around. We've let guys go, but don't think for a minute that was done without preparation for future contracts.

[ludy51]

Just now, GrimCoconut said:

First, who said Brandon Williams is leaving in FA? I think he's a guy we keep around. We've let guys go, but don't think for a minute that was done without preparation for future contracts.

Most likely scenario. Teams pay a premium for players like him, and his agent knows it.

[GrimCoconut]

Just now, ludy51 said:

Most likely scenario. Teams pay a premium for players like him, and his agent knows it.

It is not the most likely scenario. In fact, a "most likely scenario" doesn't even exist right now. 

[ludy51]

If I had 100% certainty that we could at least get 80% out of other guys that we get out of the players we have right now and would probably lose, I would make that move

[Purple_City39]

1 hour ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

In a way I guess you could say they missed on more talent, but Julio has made that offense explosive and they were right there in 2012 with him being a big part of it. 

I do agree Julio has made Atlanta more explosive on offnese.  But with all the holes they couldn't fill because they didn't have the draft picks to do it, they've still done nothing.  3 years before Julio, 33 wins and 0 playoff wins.  First 3 years with Julio, 36 wins and 1 playoff win.  I don't see the task in trading the farm for 1 win a season and .33 playoff wins a season.  Especially when you see how the team has looked since those missing draft picks caught up to them the last few years

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

10 hours ago, Winchester said:

It wasn't 3 round1 picks. The asking price was actually reasonable. It was a round1-3. Decosta is very cheap at dealing picks. Nobody woukd actually consider what he actually offers. He did not want to part with a round 3 pick to get back into round1 and round2. Ravens usually fail at trade up attempts. Ozzie and Decosta did not want to part with a round pick to trade up for Joe Cool. Ozzie and Decosta were content to draft the next best qb if a rival team took Joe cool. Biscotti ordered the trade up. Hevwas going to risk losing their top rated qb over a round pick!! A bargain by the  standards of what teams are trading to move up to get a franchise qb.

It was a good draft but Crockett Jernigan and Mosley are all replaceable. Game changing rare talents like Mack are not easily replaced!! Game changers are like qbs. You are not winning a championship without a couple of them. So may as well take some chances to get game changing  players with rare skills

I'd much rather have Mosley,Jernigan and Gilmore than just Mack.If those three are all easily replaceable then how come every team doesn't have a Mosley at ILB ,a Jernigan at DE and a Gilmore at TE?Mosley is not that far off from being on Macks level.He just plays a less glamorous position so his stat sheet doesn't look as pretty as Macks with all his sacks.Gilmore would've had over 700 yards and 6 or 7 TD's had he finished the season.Jernigan isn't on their level yet but he still hasn't played his best football yet.Having a guy like Mack gives you an awesome piece,but having guys Mosley,Gilmore and Jernigan gives you the makings of a solid TEAM.

[Purple_City39]

47 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I'd trade all 3 for Mack but knowing that decision on draft day I'd say it's a bad move. As a result I can't very well change my opinion now. 

I think this is an aspect we're all not fully considering.  In hindsight, we know how a player like Mack turned out, but that's a crazy trade on draft day.  First round picks bust all the time.  JaMarcus Russell was a can't miss pick.  The Browns traded an extra pick or two (I forget) to move up just one spot for Trent Richardson, who was another "can't miss" pick.  Even here in Baltimore, the team traded a future first for a franchise QB named Kyle Boller.

Hindsight is a wonderful gift, but I don't see how these trades get made on draft day

[ludy51]

1 minute ago, GrimCoconut said:

It is not the most likely scenario. In fact, a "most likely scenario" doesn't even exist right now. 

Huh?

[ludy51]

6 minutes ago, HomeoftheBRAVENS said:

I'd much rather have Mosley,Jernigan and Gilmore than just Mack.If those three are all easily replaceable then how come every team doesn't have a Mosley at ILB ,a Jernigan at DE and a Gilmore at TE?Mosley is not that far off from being on Macks level.He just plays a less glamorous position so his stat sheet doesn't look as pretty as Macks with all his sacks.Gilmore would've had over 700 yards and 6 or 7 TD's had he finished the season.Jernigan isn't on their level yet but he still hasn't played his best football yet.Having a guy like Mack gives you an awesome piece,but having guys Mosley,Gilmore and Jernigan gives you the makings of a solid TEAM.

this is true as well

[RavensDieHard21]

2 minutes ago, ludy51 said:

Carl is very inconsistent

and "some other NT"? Really? that's your plan?

Mack wouldn't be used much simply because of the massive exploitable weaknesses in the other areas of our defense

Williams was very inconsistent his rookie year too lol Davis will be very good, just wait. Willie Henry is decent against the run and can also rush the passer. I love Williams and Mosley, but that is off topic. Having Mack and Williams from 2014 through 2016 would still have happened. Williams isn't even off the team yet.

[RavensDieHard21]

12 minutes ago, HomeoftheBRAVENS said:

I'd much rather have Mosley,Jernigan and Gilmore than just Mack.If those three are all easily replaceable then how come every team doesn't have a Mosley at ILB ,a Jernigan at DE and a Gilmore at TE?Mosley is not that far off from being on Macks level.He just plays a less glamorous position so his stat sheet doesn't look as pretty as Macks with all his sacks.Gilmore would've had over 700 yards and 6 or 7 TD's had he finished the season.Jernigan isn't on their level yet but he still hasn't played his best football yet.Having a guy like Mack gives you an awesome piece,but having guys Mosley,Gilmore and Jernigan gives you the makings of a solid TEAM.

Once again Solid, not championship caliber. Mosley is the only one that is a real difference maker so far. Just looking at value, is it harder to find an all-pro a DE and OLB, can stone wall the run, and force fumbles in key moments or a ILB, a rotating 3-4 DE and a TE who hasn't eclipsed 500 yards in a season yet? Finding a game wrecking DE/OLB is the second hardest player to acquire in the NFL next to a Franchise QB.

If we land Mack, then in 14' we still have Suggs, Doom, McPhee, Jimmy, Webb, Hill, Williams, Daryl Smith, plus whatever picks we then make, including our solid rotation at run stuffing D lineman. In 15' we have same players minus McPhee. Plus we still land Carl Davis and have our solid 2016 draft picks moving forward. 

[Winchester]

11 hours ago, Winchester said:

It wasn't 3 round1 picks. The asking price was actually reasonable. It was a round1-3. Decosta is very cheap at dealing picks. Nobody woukd actually consider what he actually offers. He did not want to part with a round 3 pick to get back into round1 and round2. Ravens usually fail at trade up attempts. Ozzie and Decosta did not want to part with a round pick to trade up for Joe Cool. Ozzie and Decosta were content to draft the next best qb if a rival team took Joe cool. Biscotti ordered the trade up. Hevwas going to risk losing their top rated qb over a round pick!! A bargain by the  standards of what teams are trading to move up to get a franchise qb.

It was a good draft but Crockett Jernigan and Mosley are all replaceable. Game changing rare talents like Mack are not easily replaced!! Game changers are like qbs. You are not winning a championship without a couple of them. So may as well take some chances to get game changing  players with rare skills

Dislike all you want.  Show me one team that won a championship without rare talents!! So you need to make moves to get a couple of those guys you build your team around. Like Mayock said about trading up for qbs. It will not matter what it costed cuz you need a franchise qb. Franchise qbs never hit free agency just as Khalil Macks and .uk watts never hit free agency. Overrated players like Suh may hit the market and you will vastly overpay for him. But Macks watts reeds do not ever hit free agency. Have to draft'em

Edited May 16, 2016 by Moderator 3