Revisiting the 2014 NFL Draft

[RavensDieHard21]

Just a random though I was having here. I have looked at our potential line up and I love the balance on both sides of the ball, especially with our offense and our defensive line. But there is still something missing to me, which is a game wrecker on defense. Our draft I believe was very very good in 2014 and could also have been this year, but we will need time to tell how these picks develop. One thing I am curious to know is how much interest did Ozzie have in one particular player in the 2014 Draft? That player being Khalil Mack. I heard rumors that he wanted him very badly, but the price was too steep to move from 17 to 5. 

So hypothetically with us knowing his potential and insane production through two years, would it have been worth it to give us a slight King's ransom to have acquired Mack? He is graded via PFF the best edge defender in the NFL and he is a stud at the OLB and DE position. Both a hammer against the run and can man handle lineman at the point of attack effortlessly. Would it have been worth it to have surrendered three first round picks? Those being Mosley, Perriman, and Stanley. Or, two firsts and two seconds in addition to later picks, so Mosley, Jernigan, Brooks, Perriman, Maxx, and Allen. Just a very interesting conversation to be had I feel. I know it is pointless as what is done is done, but it is a different way to look at draft strategy in a way I guess. 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Ozzie's best draft in years. Mosley, Jernigan, Crockett, Urschel are all positive contributors and we got three starters out of this draft. Maybe four if Brooks ever pans out in any capacity. 

[BmoreBird22]

You'd have to have like three 2012 type drafts for me to ever say a player is worth that much, even Watt.

[Winchester]

1 hour ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

Just a random though I was having here. I have looked at our potential line up and I love the balance on both sides of the ball, especially with our offense and our defensive line. But there is still something missing to me, which is a game wrecker on defense. Our draft I believe was very very good in 2014 and could also have been this year, but we will need time to tell how these picks develop. One thing I am curious to know is how much interest did Ozzie have in one particular player in the 2014 Draft? That player being Khalil Mack. I heard rumors that he wanted him very badly, but the price was too steep to move from 17 to 5. 

So hypothetically with us knowing his potential and insane production through two years, would it have been worth it to give us a slight King's ransom to have acquired Mack? He is graded via PFF the best edge defender in the NFL and he is a stud at the OLB and DE position. Both a hammer against the run and can man handle lineman at the point of attack effortlessly. Would it have been worth it to have surrendered three first round picks? Those being Mosley, Perriman, and Stanley. Or, two firsts and two seconds in addition to later picks, so Mosley, Jernigan, Brooks, Perriman, Maxx, and Allen. Just a very interesting conversation to be had I feel. I know it is pointless as what is done is done, but it is a different way to look at draft strategy in a way I guess. 

It wasn't 3 round1 picks. The asking price was actually reasonable. It was a round1-3. Decosta is very cheap at dealing picks. Nobody woukd actually consider what he actually offers. He did not want to part with a round 3 pick to get back into round1 and round2. Ravens usually fail at trade up attempts. Ozzie and Decosta did not want to part with a round pick to trade up for Joe Cool. Ozzie and Decosta were content to draft the next best qb if a rival team took Joe cool. Biscotti ordered the trade up. Hevwas going to risk losing their top rated qb over a round pick!! A bargain by the  standards of what teams are trading to move up to get a franchise qb.

It was a good draft but Crockett Jernigan and Mosley are all replaceable. Game changing rare talents like Mack are not easily replaced!! Game changers are like qbs. You are not winning a championship without a couple of them. So may as well take some chances to get game changing  players with rare skills

[usmccharles]

1 hour ago, Winchester said:

It wasn't 3 round1 picks. The asking price was actually reasonable. It was a round1-3. Decosta is very cheap at dealing picks. Nobody woukd actually consider what he actually offers. He did not want to part with a round 3 pick to get back into round1 and round2. Ravens usually fail at trade up attempts. Ozzie and Decosta did not want to part with a round pick to trade up for Joe Cool. Ozzie and Decosta were content to draft the next best qb if a rival team took Joe cool. Biscotti ordered the trade up. Hevwas going to risk losing their top rated qb over a round pick!! A bargain by the  standards of what teams are trading to move up to get a franchise qb.

It was a good draft but Crockett Jernigan and Mosley are all replaceable. Game changing rare talents like Mack are not easily replaced!! Game changers are like qbs. You are not winning a championship without a couple of them. So may as well take some chances to get game changing  players with rare skills

I doubt the raiders would of taken anything less to move down that far, but I haven't read anything stating what it would of taken.  Also (imo), having one great player isn't as important to having 3 or 4 starters that are good or above average.  You do need great players, but its all relative on what it would of taken to get Mack. 

[RaineV1]

As good as Mack is, one player doesn't make a whole team good. The Falcons' learned that the hard way with the Julio Jones trade. I would have given up a 2nd, and maybe a fourth to move up. Anything more than that just isn't worth it. Well, not worth it for anything less than a franchise QB.

[Purple_City39]

6 hours ago, usmccharles said:

I doubt the raiders would of taken anything less to move down that far, but I haven't read anything stating what it would of taken.  Also (imo), having one great player isn't as important to having 3 or 4 starters that are good or above average.  You do need great players, but its all relative on what it would of taken to get Mack. 

You shouldn't even add the "imo".  This statement is fact if you look through NFL history.

Barry Sanders
Calvin Johnson
J.J. Watt

Examples of players easily the best at their positions in their prime while on teams with with scrubs around them.  I think the three of them have 2 combined playoff wins.  One player isn't winning anything for a team.  Even Peyton Manning couldn't pull off a superbowl win until his defense stepped up in January of 2007 and carried Peyton's 3 TD, 7 INT performance to a ring, and he's considered the best QB ever by many

[RavensDieHard21]

8 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

You'd have to have like three 2012 type drafts for me to ever say a player is worth that much, even Watt.

Did you just say you wouldn't give up three first rounders for Watt now? or just knowing what he would become on draft day?

[RavensDieHard21]

8 hours ago, Winchester said:

It wasn't 3 round1 picks. The asking price was actually reasonable. It was a round1-3. Decosta is very cheap at dealing picks. Nobody woukd actually consider what he actually offers. He did not want to part with a round 3 pick to get back into round1 and round2. Ravens usually fail at trade up attempts. Ozzie and Decosta did not want to part with a round pick to trade up for Joe Cool. Ozzie and Decosta were content to draft the next best qb if a rival team took Joe cool. Biscotti ordered the trade up. Hevwas going to risk losing their top rated qb over a round pick!! A bargain by the  standards of what teams are trading to move up to get a franchise qb.

It was a good draft but Crockett Jernigan and Mosley are all replaceable. Game changing rare talents like Mack are not easily replaced!! Game changers are like qbs. You are not winning a championship without a couple of them. So may as well take some chances to get game changing  players with rare skills

I knew this might bring up the one player v a whole team debate, which I understand based on its merits, but come on, those players that we give up are often not far off from the players we would fill their role with. 

I love Ozzie and Decosta's draft strategies no doubt, but I agree, they very often let great players slip by because they want more picks to have a better chance at another player panning out. It is hit or miss, but if you are confident in a player's skills then make the deal! 

To me, Mack is going to be the best in the game. Miller is slightly better at rushing now, but Mack is a hammer in the run game and can absolutely man handle his opponents despite his position. Just watch his 5 sack game vs Denver, he was bull dozing everyone. Even watch his tape vs the massive Vollmer of NE or Gronk trying to chip him. Mack dominated them.

[usmccharles]

33 minutes ago, Purple_City39 said:

You shouldn't even add the "imo".  This statement is fact if you look through NFL history.

Barry Sanders
Calvin Johnson
J.J. Watt

Examples of players easily the best at their positions in their prime while on teams with with scrubs around them.  I think the three of them have 2 combined playoff wins.  One player isn't winning anything for a team.  Even Peyton Manning couldn't pull off a superbowl win until his defense stepped up in January of 2007 and carried Peyton's 3 TD, 7 INT performance to a ring, and he's considered the best QB ever by many

I get what your saying but that is just my opinion on what I would rather.    Just like someone on here would rather make that trade and have Mack.  I get why,  Mack is amazing,  but he alone wouldn't win a championship,  hell they have two top ten picks killing it now so obviously that makes it easier.   

Whats funny is,  I'd be willing to bet the same People saying we should of done that trade would of been the same people freaking out right after we actually made the trade   

[RavensDieHard21]

38 minutes ago, Purple_City39 said:

You shouldn't even add the "imo".  This statement is fact if you look through NFL history.

Barry Sanders
Calvin Johnson
J.J. Watt

Examples of players easily the best at their positions in their prime while on teams with with scrubs around them.  I think the three of them have 2 combined playoff wins.  One player isn't winning anything for a team.  Even Peyton Manning couldn't pull off a superbowl win until his defense stepped up in January of 2007 and carried Peyton's 3 TD, 7 INT performance to a ring, and he's considered the best QB ever by many

See that is what I am getting at. Everyone wants to look to other teams and their scenarios, but in 90% of these circumstances, the comparison is irrelevant. Sanders and Johnson were on the Lions, a team we are all very well-aware of that is good at drafting a generational talent every other decade, but cannot piece together a team, it's not because of Sanders of Johnson that the Lions were not successful. 

 

In the case of Watt, look at the success of Houston since his arrival compared to their 8-8 mediocrity for over a decade. That defense has been transformed, their downfall is that they haven't been able to land a great QB, it's not that Watt's contract inhibits that. 

[GrimCoconut]

I don't normally like the idea but sometimes you have to pay a premium to get a premium. Getting Mack could've changed a lot for this franchise this year and perhaps may have helped us beat New England in 2014 because of how good Mack is in coverage. 

I think it depends on the price. If Oakland wanted two first round picks and two 3rd round picks I would've done it. Expensive price but if you're that confident in the guy it's worth it for a team without many playmakers and two aging pass rushers. 

[RavensDieHard21]

6 hours ago, RaineV1 said:

As good as Mack is, one player doesn't make a whole team good. The Falcons' learned that the hard way with the Julio Jones trade. I would have given up a 2nd, and maybe a fourth to move up. Anything more than that just isn't worth it. Well, not worth it for anything less than a franchise QB.

In a way I guess you could say they missed on more talent, but Julio has made that offense explosive and they were right there in 2012 with him being a big part of it. 

[BmoreBird22]

42 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

Did you just say you wouldn't give up three first rounders for Watt now? or just knowing what he would become on draft day?

I wouldn't give up three first rounders and more for Watt. You know, it's great in theory to have a guy like Watt, but imagine using three first round picks, plus late round picks. If they did that, there is no Mosley, probably no Jernigan or BWill since they'd likely throw in a second that year as well, no Perriman, and no Stanley on top of role players. Do you give all that up for Watt, who will also constrict your cap space? He's getting Ngata type cap hits ($14.5M consistently). Do you take that?

[52520Andrew]

More than one first rounder is just too much for me to make that move. 

[RavensDieHard21]

6 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I don't normally like the idea but sometimes you have to pay a premium to get a premium. Getting Mack could've changed a lot for this franchise this year and perhaps may have helped us beat New England in 2014 because of how good Mack is in coverage. 

I think it depends on the price. If Oakland wanted two first round picks and two 3rd round picks I would've done it. Expensive price but if you're that confident in the guy it's worth it for a team without many playmakers and two aging pass rushers. 

I am the same way, but here are my issues that I think every one is very well aware of, including yourself. Sometimes one additional piece can in fact make that huge difference for a team. Just look at the Pats signing Revis in 2014. He was that piece they needed to get over the hump and capture their 4th ring. or you can look at Denver acquiring Ware and Talib, whom took a good defense to a great defense within a season. 

My next issue is that we have a very good team now, but we lack star power--a game changer moving forward. Don't get me wrong, I think Doom, Mosley, Williams, Weddle and a healthy Smith are all very good at their positions, but I don't know if I categorize them as game changers at this point. Doom and Mosley were in 2014, but moving forward we will see. We need an injection of a stellar talent to get us over the hump. Just look at the 2015 Broncos ( Miller, Ware, Talib, Harris, and Jackson), 2014 Patriots ( Revis, McCourtey, Jones), 2013 Seahawks ( Bennett, Sherman, Thomas, Chancellor), 2012 Ravens ( Lewis, Reed, Kruger, Suggs, Ngata) According to PFF, the Ravens only have one of their top 101 players, whom is Yanda, but I think Williams was a snub based on a lack of sacks. 

Please watch Mack's highlights, he is the best edge guy against the run in the game, double teams stand no chance. And once it is a passing down he arrives with absolute thunder and wrecks plays. He can also drop into coverage and excel there too. Even though he only had 4 sacks his rookie year, he had if I recall correctly, over 50 QB pressures, just imagine having that with Suggs, McPhee, and Doom in 2014? I think even without Jimmy Smith, we could have toppled the Pats. In 2015, the loss of Suggs would not have been as terrible as it was as Doom would never have needed to change his role. I will call it now, Mack will lead the league in sacks next year. The toughest thing to land is a game changing pass rusher, they go top 5 when they come out and they command serious money in the open market, so I think the other positions we might have passed on in the draft could have been more easily replaced. 

[RavensDieHard21]

3 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

More than one first rounder is just too much for me to make that move. 

An extra first rounder? 

[RavensDieHard21]

24 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I wouldn't give up three first rounders and more for Watt. You know, it's great in theory to have a guy like Watt, but imagine using three first round picks, plus late round picks. If they did that, there is no Mosley, probably no Jernigan or BWill since they'd likely throw in a second that year as well, no Perriman, and no Stanley on top of role players. Do you give all that up for Watt, who will also constrict your cap space? He's getting Ngata type cap hits ($14.5M consistently). Do you take that?

I guess it is tough, but Watt coming out wasn't even mildly thought to be who is now. I agree though, three first is a max because I think our FO's best skill is landing serious impact players in the mid rounds, so that is where we fill depth and role players, but the first round is more shaky, especially as we have found out picking at the back end of the first, so hypothetically, Watt for Jimmy, Upshaw, and Elam--three first rounders ( I know Upshaw went in the second but he was the use of what should have been a first round pick) 

[52520Andrew]

Just now, RavensDieHard21 said:

An extra first rounder? 

I wouldn't give our first rounder for 2015. I don't like giving up that much for one player. Also, I like Mack but 2014 is our best draft since 2011 and if we end up doing better this year, those guys are going to play a large part in it. Only guy right now I would give that extra first for is Watt and that isn't happening with how big his contract is now. 

[52520Andrew]

27 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I wouldn't give up three first rounders and more for Watt. You know, it's great in theory to have a guy like Watt, but imagine using three first round picks, plus late round picks. If they did that, there is no Mosley, probably no Jernigan or BWill since they'd likely throw in a second that year as well, no Perriman, and no Stanley on top of role players. Do you give all that up for Watt, who will also constrict your cap space? He's getting Ngata type cap hits ($14.5M consistently). Do you take that?

Williams was drafted in 2013 btw

[GrimCoconut]

8 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

More than one first rounder is just too much for me to make that move. 

I think two first round picks is the most I'd do myself. You can rationalize that kind of move. 

[52520Andrew]

Just now, GrimCoconut said:

I think two first round picks is the most I'd do myself. You can rationalize that kind of move. 

Yeah I may be able to get talked into it but that is still a lot for me to give up. Hindsight would make the trade a lot easier to do if Perriman busts but I don't like going that route when analyzing if I would do a trade or not. 

[RavensDieHard21]

8 hours ago, usmccharles said:

I doubt the raiders would of taken anything less to move down that far, but I haven't read anything stating what it would of taken.  Also (imo), having one great player isn't as important to having 3 or 4 starters that are good or above average.  You do need great players, but its all relative on what it would of taken to get Mack. 

I agree, I would have given three first round max, especially because in 2014 we were used to being a perennial play off contender just suffering from a SB hangover lol, but it would be tough, but I would have very easily done two first, a second, and a third. Our roster would have seriously been and would still be insane, just having Mack, Doom and Suggs is a serious threat, especially since we would have still had Williams and likely Davis, Henry, Guy up front to stone wall the run. We would still have Webb, Daryl Smith, Jimmy Smith, etc. 

I just think that a pass rusher of that quality is so hard to get that it is worth the extra lost picks, especially when Ozzie can pick very solid mid round prospects on a regular basis. The drop off from guys we have starting to their back ups isn't drastic--as far as the likely picks we would have passed on, Jernigan, Crockett, perriman, and Maxx.

[GrimCoconut]

5 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

Yeah I may be able to get talked into it but that is still a lot for me to give up. Hindsight would make the trade a lot easier to do if Perriman busts but I don't like going that route when analyzing if I would do a trade or not. 

Yeah. I get it and I normally feel the same but I'm not even considering Perriman in my decision because we wouldn't have him. I'd make the trade but I couldn't get on board with selling our top 2 choices in a single draft. I don't think Jernigan is worth Mack but knowing what I know now I still wouldn't have traded Mosley, Jernigan and Brooks in 2014. That's too high a price. 

[52520Andrew]

Just now, GrimCoconut said:

Yeah. I get it and I normally feel the same but I'm not even considering Perriman in my decision because we wouldn't have him. I'd make the trade but I couldn't get on board with selling our top 2 choices in a single draft. I don't think Jernigan is worth Mack but knowing what I know now I still wouldn't have traded Mosley, Jernigan and Brooks in 2014. That's too high a price. 

Yeah these what if questions always get to me because there are so many variables to consider. Also don't like selling the farm for one guy, while Julio Jones has done very well for Atlanta for instance, the lack of depth really hurt Atlanta in the coming years. 

[GrimCoconut]

3 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

I agree, I would have given three first round max, especially because in 2014 we were used to being a perennial play off contender just suffering from a SB hangover lol, but it would be tough, but I would have very easily done two first, a second, and a third. Our roster would have seriously been and would still be insane, just having Mack, Doom and Suggs is a serious threat, especially since we would have still had Williams and likely Davis, Henry, Guy up front to stone wall the run. We would still have Webb, Daryl Smith, Jimmy Smith, etc. 

I just think that a pass rusher of that quality is so hard to get that it is worth the extra lost picks, especially when Ozzie can pick very solid mid round prospects on a regular basis. The drop off from guys we have starting to their back ups isn't drastic--as far as the likely picks we would have passed on, Jernigan, Crockett, perriman, and Maxx.

Gillmore was a compensatory pick so we wouldn't have lost him. Regardless you can't look at a draft in hindsight like that. I'd never trade our top three draft choices ever in a single draft. That's the kind of move that hurts you. Not picking until the 4th round would be very very challenging. 

[RavensDieHard21]

1 hour ago, usmccharles said:

I get what your saying but that is just my opinion on what I would rather.    Just like someone on here would rather make that trade and have Mack.  I get why,  Mack is amazing,  but he alone wouldn't win a championship,  hell they have two top ten picks killing it now so obviously that makes it easier.   

Whats funny is,  I'd be willing to bet the same People saying we should of done that trade would of been the same people freaking out right after we actually made the trade   

No, not me. In 2014, we were a piece or two away from reaching a championship. Would Mack have made a huge impact in 2014, especially in the Pats game? I think so big time. Having to block Suggs, Doom, McPhee and Mack, regardless of dink and dunk tactics is very hard, especially with Mack's crazy quick first step. 

The reason it looks even better now is that we knew our pass rushers were both +30 and if we didn't plan on paying McPhee then we were in due time going to run into a pass rusher issue. Once either of them go down, our pass rush department is in big trouble. Mack would have a bigger impact long-term than Mosley or Jernigan, probably even both.

[RavensDieHard21]

6 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

Yeah. I get it and I normally feel the same but I'm not even considering Perriman in my decision because we wouldn't have him. I'd make the trade but I couldn't get on board with selling our top 2 choices in a single draft. I don't think Jernigan is worth Mack but knowing what I know now I still wouldn't have traded Mosley, Jernigan and Brooks in 2014. That's too high a price. 

Value wise, you think Mosley, Jernigan and Brooks> Mack, even if those were the only given up picks?

[GrimCoconut]

1 minute ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

No, not me. In 2014, we were a piece or two away from reaching a championship. Would Mack have made a huge impact in 2014, especially in the Pats game? I think so big time. Having to block Suggs, Doom, McPhee and Mack, regardless of dink and dunk tactics is very hard, especially with Mack's crazy quick first step. 

The reason it looks even better now is that we knew our pass rushers were both +30 and if we didn't plan on paying McPhee then we were in due time going to run into a pass rusher issue. Once either of them go down, our pass rush department is in big trouble. Mack would have a bigger impact long-term than Mosley or Jernigan, probably even both.

I don't think we were a piece away because if we were we wouldn't have taken such a step back this past season. If we needed any position it was CB since lack of depth there killed us.

[GrimCoconut]

Just now, RavensDieHard21 said:

Value wise, you think Mosley, Jernigan and Brooks> Mack, even if those were the only given up picks?

I'd trade all 3 for Mack but knowing that decision on draft day I'd say it's a bad move. As a result I can't very well change my opinion now.