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Mt. Crushmore

2016 Draft a Franchise: Discussion Thread

6,017 posts in this topic

The thing with Newton is that everyone dogs his receivers because they weren't big names, but they were explosive and could all score at any point in time. They were vastly underrated.

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1 minute ago, BmoreBird22 said:

The thing with Newton is that everyone dogs his receivers because they weren't big names, but they were explosive and could all score at any point in time. They were vastly underrated.

I thought it was foolish to write off Carolina just because one receiver went down. In my eyes they were the clearest favorite of any division. 

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13 minutes ago, -Truth- said:

I thought he took a step forward I'm terms of going through his progressions the year before. I would've likely had Rodgers and Newton at No.1 and No.2 among my QB targets.

 

I think most of us agree Rodgers is the clear #1. After him, I think the majority of us agree that it's between Luck and Cam for the #2 QB slot.

 

Personally I think Luck has had more success with much less around him. He's played with some horrible defense, running backs, offensive line, and only had one really consistent reciever the last few years. He had a down year, and he's a steal at #5.

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16 minutes ago, regz1997 said:

 

I think most of us agree Rodgers is the clear #1. After him, I think the majority of us agree that it's between Luck and Cam for the #2 QB slot.

 

Personally I think Luck has had more success with much less around him. He's played with some horrible defense, running backs, offensive line, and only had one really consistent reciever the last few years. He had a down year, and he's a steal at #5.

That one receiver was also a rookie with him.

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6 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

That one receiver was also a rookie with him.

Yeah exactly. But he's really the only guy who's been relatively consistent for Luck besides another guy who was on the downside of his career anyway. Andrew Luck in Indy has masked many flaws in that team, while Cam Newton has had the luxury of always having that killer Panther defense to help win games, along with several solid running backs. 

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7 minutes ago, regz1997 said:

Yeah exactly. But he's really the only guy who's been relatively consistent for Luck besides another guy who was on the downside of his career anyway. Andrew Luck in Indy has masked many flaws in that team, while Cam Newton has had the luxury of always having that killer Panther defense to help win games, along with several solid running backs. 

Luck has been very instrumental in helping develop those receivers. Over 60% of his team his rookie year was new. I think every receiver/tight end outside of Wayne was a rookie. That's insane.

Like I said, Newton didn't have the big names, but they played out of their minds. Along with Seattle (another t4am that gets a bad rap) their top three receivers plus tight ends were ranked in the top three when not factoring in quarterback play.

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9 minutes ago, regz1997 said:

Yeah exactly. But he's really the only guy who's been relatively consistent for Luck besides another guy who was on the downside of his career anyway. Andrew Luck in Indy has masked many flaws in that team, while Cam Newton has had the luxury of always having that killer Panther defense to help win games, along with several solid running backs. 

Luck has always had a better offense. It's looking identical to the qb from Baltimore and the qb from Atlanta. The situations are extremely similar 

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1 minute ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Luck has been very instrumental in helping develop those receivers. Over 60% of his team his rookie year was new. I think every receiver/tight end outside of Wayne was a rookie. That's insane.

Like I said, Newton didn't have the big names, but they played out of their minds. Along with Seattle (another t4am that gets a bad rap) their top three receivers plus tight ends were ranked in the top three when not factoring in quarterback play.

You give luck credit for his offense improving but you don't give Cam credit for developing his talent. Ted Him has left and gone back to Carolina, and it's staggering how much better he is with Cam. 

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1 minute ago, CalvinSmoke said:

You give luck credit for his offense improving but you don't give Cam credit for developing his talent. Ted Him has left and gone back to Carolina, and it's staggering how much better he is with Cam. 

Well, that player (don't drop names) was in Carolina with Cam the first time, so...

We're also talking about veterans vs rookies. Cam has veterans. Luck had... rookies. 

Not to mention that his receivers didn't put up stellar stats. However (for what ever this is worth) PFF had his top weapons as a top three unit independant of quarterback play. When taking into account just their ability to get open and make plays, they were top 3. 

Again, they aren't big names, but they're explosive and can score any time they touch the ball.

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There's a QB under 30 I'd put in the top 3 over Cam. And I expect him to be selected within the next few picks.

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20 minutes ago, CalvinSmoke said:

Luck has always had a better offense. It's looking identical to the qb from Baltimore and the qb from Atlanta. The situations are extremely similar 

Not even close...

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1 minute ago, RaineV1 said:

There's a QB under 30 I'd put in the top 3 over Cam. And I expect him to be selected within the next few picks.

If Luck wasn't there, I was gonna roll with a third year guy one probably wouldn't expect

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1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Well, that player (don't drop names) was in Carolina with Cam the first time, so...

We're also talking about veterans vs rookies. Cam has veterans. Luck had... rookies. 

Not to mention that his receivers didn't put up stellar stats. However (for what ever this is worth) PFF had his top weapons as a top three unit independant of quarterback play. When taking into account just their ability to get open and make plays, they were top 3. 

Again, they aren't big names, but they're explosive and can score any time they touch the ball.

 

I like both the guys the same but for different reasons. But for argument sake since I did pick him and its turned into bash Cam hour (this is hard without mentioning names):

One of Luck's receivers is one of the game's best WRs and is far from a rookie.  Cam also had a rookie last year who he made look pretty good (especially when a lot of people thought he was going to be a bust).  Cam's receivers this year could get open for sure, that has never been a problem.  But for every catch the one receiver made, how many times did he have that brutal would-be-TD drop?  As for the running game, it's dynamic because of what Cam brings to the table.  Yes, they've had a stellar D, but they also led the league in PPG in 2015.  

Let's not kid ourselves and say the 2015 Panthers had a stellar season in spite of Cam.  Cam is also a tremendous character and brings energy to the entire team.  The type of guy that elevates the players around him.  

And we cannot dismiss what happened last year with Luck completely.  Yes he was injured and had an ineffective line.  But Luck was making some horrendous decisions.  

 

Edited by PuRock
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25 minutes ago, PuRock said:

 

I like both the guys the same but for different reasons. But for argument sake since I did pick him and its turned into bash Cam hour (this is hard without mentioning names):

One of Luck's receivers is one of the game's best WRs and is far from a rookie.  Cam also had a rookie last year who he made look pretty good (especially when a lot of people thought he was going to be a bust).  Cam's receivers this year could get open for sure, that has never been a problem.  But for every catch the one receiver made, how many times did he have that brutal would-be-TD drop?  As for the running game, it's dynamic because of what Cam brings to the table.  Yes, they've had a stellar D, but they also led the league in PPG in 2015.  Let's not kid ourselves and say the 2015 Panthers had a stellar season in spite of Cam.  Cam is also a tremendous character and brings energy to the entire team.  The type of guy that elevates the players around him.  

And we cannot dismiss what happened last year with Luck completely.  Yes he was injured and had an ineffective line.  But Luck was making some horrendous decisions.  

 

I have to concur on your point on Luck again. I'm not sure why he's given a complete pass for some very inconsistent and at times aweful play. He really has a lot to prove in my eyes. 

 

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32 minutes ago, PuRock said:

 

I like both the guys the same but for different reasons. But for argument sake since I did pick him and its turned into bash Cam hour (this is hard without mentioning names):

One of Luck's receivers is one of the game's best WRs and is far from a rookie.  Cam also had a rookie last year who he made look pretty good (especially when a lot of people thought he was going to be a bust).  Cam's receivers this year could get open for sure, that has never been a problem.  But for every catch the one receiver made, how many times did he have that brutal would-be-TD drop?  As for the running game, it's dynamic because of what Cam brings to the table.  Yes, they've had a stellar D, but they also led the league in PPG in 2015.  

Let's not kid ourselves and say the 2015 Panthers had a stellar season in spite of Cam.  Cam is also a tremendous character and brings energy to the entire team.  The type of guy that elevates the players around him.  

And we cannot dismiss what happened last year with Luck completely.  Yes he was injured and had an ineffective line.  But Luck was making some horrendous decisions.  

 

I meant in their rookie seasons. The only proven receiver he had was Reggie Wayne and while I agree that definitely helped with the transition, he had all rookies other than that, I believe, and a very makeshift line. Newton came in with a few rookies that I'm sure didn't even get significant playing time, a strong running game, and a decent offensive line. This also doesn't account for the fact that Newton had a very offensive minded coach and one of the best offensive minds in the game. I respect the OC Luck had, but that system was so boom or bust.

And I'm not saying Cam didn't help because he is a dynamic player with a lot of tools, but people act like he had five undrafted free agent pass catchers. He had good, solid vets who could get open and one of the top three tight ends in the league. 

And I'm not absolving Luck, nor did I even bring him up (I don't think) when talking about Newton, but he did take some chances. He's very Brett Favre in that sense. However, some of that is going to fall on a reciever reading a defense wrong, not running the right route, etc. Obviously trying to force throws is Luck, but if no one is open, a forced throw is the best you can do. No, he isn't perfect and he can definitely improve, but as a pure passer, give me Luck

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27 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I meant in their rookie seasons. The only proven receiver he had was Reggie Wayne and while I agree that definitely helped with the transition, he had all rookies other than that, I believe, and a very makeshift line. Newton came in with a few rookies that I'm sure didn't even get significant playing time, a strong running game, and a decent offensive line. This also doesn't account for the fact that Newton had a very offensive minded coach and one of the best offensive minds in the game. I respect the OC Luck had, but that system was so boom or bust.

And I'm not saying Cam didn't help because he is a dynamic player with a lot of tools, but people act like he had five undrafted free agent pass catchers. He had good, solid vets who could get open and one of the top three tight ends in the league. 

And I'm not absolving Luck, nor did I even bring him up (I don't think) when talking about Newton, but he did take some chances. He's very Brett Favre in that sense. However, some of that is going to fall on a reciever reading a defense wrong, not running the right route, etc. Obviously trying to force throws is Luck, but if no one is open, a forced throw is the best you can do. No, he isn't perfect and he can definitely improve, but as a pure passer, give me Luck

Didn't mean to address you entirety about Luck. I agree for a pure passer, give me Luck as well. It's hard for me to debate because I have always liked Luck and haven't really been a fan of Newton.  I finally conceded and came around on the guy last year. 

At the end of the day, there are a million points that can be made about who is the better franchise pick.  But both guys are still improving, they both have produced and have won a few big games, both have been fairly durable, and both have long careers ahead of them.

Besides,  I thought it would be fun building an offense around Newton in this game. 

Edited by PuRock
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1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Not even close...

I feel like his not getting enough respect. The guy had nothing... Luck not having a defense doesn't mean his a better QB

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Well, that player (don't drop names) was in Carolina with Cam the first time, so...

We're also talking about veterans vs rookies. Cam has veterans. Luck had... rookies. 

Not to mention that his receivers didn't put up stellar stats. However (for what ever this is worth) PFF had his top weapons as a top three unit independant of quarterback play. When taking into account just their ability to get open and make plays, they were top 3. 

Again, they aren't big names, but they're explosive and can score any time they touch the ball.

Are you trying to tell me Luck doesn't have speed on the outside? Because he has track stars out there man...
Carolina didn't have anything man, they constantly dropped passes, and they only had one home run hitter. They also didn't have a great offensive line at the time, and for that reason I rank Cam over Luck at the time. I rank a few people over Luck after what he showed us last year.

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19 minutes ago, CalvinSmoke said:

I feel like his not getting enough respect. The guy had nothing... Luck not having a defense doesn't mean his a better QB

Are you trying to tell me Luck doesn't have speed on the outside? Because he has track stars out there man...
Carolina didn't have anything man, they constantly dropped passes, and they only had one home run hitter. They also didn't have a great offensive line at the time, and for that reason I rank Cam over Luck at the time. I rank a few people over Luck after what he showed us last year.

Luck came in with all but one rookie weapon, rookie head coach, no offensive line, no run game, no defense. Luck has speed on the outside, but so does Newton. His starters from this season had serious speed to kill. 

Luck had 28 different starters on the offensive in like three years and that's when you factor in their LT never changing. You wanna tell me Newton had anything close to that bad? When Newton came into the league, he had a very strong left side of the line (at least good enough to keep him safe) and last year he had one of the dirtiest interiors and his LT was serviceable when combined with Newton's running ability.

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28 minutes ago, PuRock said:

Didn't mean to address you entirety about Luck. I agree for a pure passer, give me Luck as well. It's hard for me to debate because I have always liked Luck and haven't really been a fan of Newton.  I finally conceded and came around on the guy last year. 

At the end of the day, there are a million points that can be made about who is the better franchise pick.  But both guys are still improving, they both have produced and have won a few big games, both have been fairly durable, and both have long careers ahead of them.

Besides,  I thought it would be fun building an offense around Newton in this game. 

Newton is fun because he's dynamic and lessens the burden of the offensive line. Get good receivers and decent offensive line and he's [profanity deleted]i

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Darn--I knew Russell wouldn't get to me. Personally if I was building a franchise I would take him after Aaron Rodgers. 

 

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