2016 Draft a Franchise: Discussion Thread

[VeiledPsychosis]

5 minutes ago, ludy51 said:

Lol

You've gotta admit that "I'll believe it when i see it" is sort of an awkward response to the post though

[Mt. Crushmore]

9 hours ago, 52520Andrew said:

With the 13th pick in the 2015 Draft a Franchise, The Truffle Shufflers select...

 

 

Tom Brady, QB

What year do you think it is, @52520Andrew?

[52520Andrew]

Just now, Mt. Crushmore said:

What year do you think it is, @52520Andrew?

I was following the format you put in the original post of the thread

On 5/9/2016 at 0:00 PM, Mt. Crushmore said:

Pick Format:

With the _ pick in the 2015 Draft a Franchise, the ______ select...

[Picture if you so desire]

Player, Position

[ludy51]

3 minutes ago, VeiledPsychosis said:

You've gotta admit that "I'll believe it when i see it" is sort of an awkward response to the post though

Not really. He claimed that Donald couldn't be taken out while Miller and Mack could

[RaineV1]

Generally speaking consistent pressure from the middle is more effective than pressure off the edge. That said, I still think it's easier to gameplan around Donald than it is to deal with Mack or Von Miller.

[BmoreBird22]

20 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

Generally speaking consistent pressure from the middle is more effective than pressure off the edge. That said, I still think it's easier to gameplan around Donald than it is to deal with Mack or Von Miller.

If this is true, teams are still trying to figure it out because Donald finished tied for first in sacks, third in pressures, and had more than twice as many hits as the next defensive tackle.

[rmw10]

2 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

If this is true, teams are still trying to figure it out because Donald finished tied for first in sacks, third in pressures, and had more than twice as many hits as the next defensive tackle.

Donald is so hard to gameplan around because he's so explosive off the snap.  Not much an offensive lineman can do when Donald is by him before he's even out of his stance.

[RaineV1]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

If this is true, teams are still trying to figure it out because Donald finished tied for first in sacks, third in pressures, and had more than twice as many hits as the next defensive tackle.

Yeah, he outdid other defensive tackles. But Mack racked up 15 sacks while Miller did just as well off the edge as Donald did coming in the middle. That's why I say those two are apparently harder to deal with. Donald would be a clear cut 3 after those two though.

[regz1997]

About 6 hours til skip...

[BmoreBird22]

51 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

Yeah, he outdid other defensive tackles. But Mack racked up 15 sacks while Miller did just as well off the edge as Donald did coming in the middle. That's why I say those two are apparently harder to deal with. Donald would be a clear cut 3 after those two though.

If you're really using sacks as your argument, then I don't have much more to say.

[VeiledPsychosis]

20 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

If you're really using sacks as your argument, then I don't have much more to say.

I think he only started talking about sacks because you mentioned sacks...it's kind of hard to chime into a debate on how a player is more easily taken away, out of 3 players that have all equally not been taken away, and not be pushed in completely and your input made into an argument for one side against the other.

Edited May 11, 2016 by VeiledPsychosis

[BmoreBird22]

12 minutes ago, VeiledPsychosis said:

I think he only started talking about sacks because you mentioned sacks...it's kind of hard to chime into a debate on how a player is more easily taken away, out of 3 players that have all equally not been taken away, and not be pushed in completely and your input made into an argument for one side against the other.

I'm not really getting what you're saying, but I also mentioned hits and pressures as well as sacks. Donald had the highest pass rushing productivity grade amongst defensive tackles and had more quarterback hits than Miller. I'm mot sure with Mack, but I'd imagine it's close there as well. 

Again, if the argument is that Mack got more sacks, so he was harder to gameplan for, that's a flawed arguement.

[ludy51]

8 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I'm not really getting what you're saying, but I also mentioned hits and pressures as well as sacks. Donald had the highest pass rushing productivity grade amongst defensive tackles and had more quarterback hits than Miller. I'm mot sure with Mack, but I'd imagine it's close there as well. 

Again, if the argument is that Mack got more sacks, so he was harder to gameplan for, that's a flawed arguement.

He also had 1st team all-pro In two different positions...

Edited May 11, 2016 by ludy51

[VeiledPsychosis]

25 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I'm not really getting what you're saying, but I also mentioned hits and pressures as well as sacks. Donald had the highest pass rushing productivity grade amongst defensive tackles and had more quarterback hits than Miller. I'm mot sure with Mack, but I'd imagine it's close there as well. 

Again, if the argument is that Mack got more sacks, so he was harder to gameplan for, that's a flawed arguement.

My response wasn't making any argument for or against anyone, just explaining why someone pointed out sacks responding to your comment.

 

And an argument that Donald is the best out of the three based on how he compares to other DTs is a flawed argument. What I've been saying is: sure, if we're going to not focus on sacks because a DT can only do so much in that department then we have to do the same for OLBs pertaining to run stopping. Donald, at his best, will never get as many sacks as Mack, at his best, simply due to position, but the same can be said against the run, Donald can take away the middle but an edge player can never lock down 20+ yards on their own, they'll never be able to be on the same footing in the run department.

Edited May 11, 2016 by VeiledPsychosis

[BmoreBird22]

7 minutes ago, VeiledPsychosis said:

My response wasn't making any argument for or against anyone, just explaining why someone pointed out sacks responding to your comment.

 

And an argument that Donald is the best out of the three based on how he compares to other DTs is a flawed argument. What I've been saying is: sure, if we're going to not focus on sacks because a DT can only do so much in that department then we have to do the same for OLBs pertaining to run stopping. Donald, at his best, will never get as many sacks as Mack, at his best, simply due to position, but the same can be said against the run, Donald can take away the middle but an edge player can never lock down 20+ yards on their own, they'll never be able to be on the same footing in the run department.

Actually, I'd argue that edge defenders have a distinct advantage in run defense as well. Who's more likely to get a TFL? An edge defender. Who generally finishes with a higher tackle total? An edge defender. It's the nature of the position to put up more gaudy stats from DE/OLB.

A defensive tackle can stuff runs up the middle, but setting the edge can completely destroy a play by forcing a complete misdirection.

Edited May 11, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[BmoreBird22]

18 minutes ago, ludy51 said:

He also had 1st team all-pro In two different positions...

I'm not totally surprised because of the blurred lines between OLB and DE in the NFL now, but I'm not arguing that Mack is not an elite defender.

[Mt. Crushmore]

The skip time is 2:33 am EST

If there is a skip, then @ALSKAN RAVEN FAN goes on the clock. I won't be awake, but @allblackraven will be.

@BOLDnPurPnBlacK, if you won't be online around the skip time, can you try and send your board to allblackraven? We could then knock out multiple picks at once.

[Mt. Crushmore]

2 hours ago, 52520Andrew said:

I was following the format you put in the original post of the thread

Well played...

[VeiledPsychosis]

14 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Actually, I'd argue that edge defenders have a distinct advantage in run defense as well. Who's more likely to get a TFL? An edge defender. Who generally finishes with a higher tackle total? An edge defender. It's the nature of the position to put up more gaudy stats from DT. 

A defensive tackle can stuff runs up the middle, but setting the edge can completely destroy a play by forcing a complete misdirection.

That's not a good way to measure run stopping ability at all, of course an edge defender is going to have more of both simply because teams run outside more plus you've got screens and OLBs have coverage duties as well, all are padding the tackles stat and the first two pad the TFL stat. You could argue that but I'd argue that that is a terrible argument. i'd counter with: who has more of an advantage? a defender that is expected to handle a couple yards at most or one that is expected to hold down 20+? the DT of course has a distinct advantage in run stopping. You follow the draft, you should know that numbers alone is not the way to evaluate anyone especially something like TFL and tackles that are so broad an include many things outside of simple run plays.

Edited May 11, 2016 by VeiledPsychosis

[Mt. Crushmore]

I'm always interested to see when the first non-QB offensive player goes and who it is. This year it's Antonio Brown. It's interesting because for the most part if a person doesn't go QB in the first round then it is defense. However, there usually is a couple in the 1st each year.

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, VeiledPsychosis said:

That's not a good way to measure run stopping ability at all, of course an edge defender is going to have more of both simply because teams run outside more plus you've got screens. You could argue that but I'd argue that that is a terrible argument. i'd counter with: who has more of an advantage? a defender that is expected to handle a couple yards at most or one that is expected to hold down 20+? the DT of course has a distinct advantage in run stopping. You follow the draft, you should know that numbers alone is not the way to evaluate anyone especially something like TFL and tackles that are so broad an include many things outside of simple run plays.

Your sentences and lack of paragraphs are honestly throwing me off here.

An edge defender has a greater impact on the run game by virtue of being an edge defender. I'd imagine most teams want to run outside because if they can get the edge, they usually only have to beat a man in the secondary for a big gain. An edge defender that can lock down the edge is going to cause more issues than a defensive tackle because it causes misdirections or runs into the arm of that defensive tackle. 

If a defensive tackle starts penetrating, a running back can just bounce the run wide. It takes extreme quickness and closing burst to really beat a run up the middle as a defensive tackle in the same way that an edge defender does.

Just by virtue of the position, edge defenders are going to have gaudier stats, stand out more, and appear more flashy. 

I'm not really sure this even matters, but an edge defender is likely to get more run stuffs than a defensive tackle every single year by virtue of the position.

[allblackraven]

If I had to choose, I'd rather pay $100 mil Donald than Miller.

[VeiledPsychosis]

19 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Your sentences and lack of paragraphs are honestly throwing me off here.

An edge defender has a greater impact on the run game by virtue of being an edge defender. I'd imagine most teams want to run outside because if they can get the edge, they usually only have to beat a man in the secondary for a big gain. An edge defender that can lock down the edge is going to cause more issues than a defensive tackle because it causes misdirections or runs into the arm of that defensive tackle. 

If a defensive tackle starts penetrating, a running back can just bounce the run wide. It takes extreme quickness and closing burst to really beat a run up the middle as a defensive tackle in the same way that an edge defender does.

Just by virtue of the position, edge defenders are going to have gaudier stats, stand out more, and appear more flashy. 

I'm not really sure this even matters, but an edge defender is likely to get more run stuffs than a defensive tackle every single year by virtue of the position.

Like I said: I realize that edge players will always have better stats on paper than inside defenders, we can stop going back and forth agreeing on this.

"I'd imagine most teams want to run outside because if they can get the edge, they usually only have to beat a man in the secondary for a big gain." Exactly my point, an edge defender is on an island tasked with covering lots of yardage whereas inside defenders (especially in the 4-3) only have to handle a small area between them and the next guy. And I'd  argue that the rest of that paragraph can be said about both, if the edge is locked down the runner can cut it inside (which would pad the DT's stats and lets not act as if Donald hasn't had fantastic edge defenders on that Rams defensive front, which is also an argument pertaining to his pass rush prowess, he's never had a supporting cast anywhere near as bad as Mack, in fact his supporting cast since being drafted has arguably been the best in the league...)

If a DT gets pressure then the runner can bounce it outside which would easily benefit and pad the OLB's stats but why is the same not true for DTs when edge players get immediate pressure? usually if any DT gets immediate pressure on a run play, barring a missed tackle, they are able to get the runner no problem. Only in rare cases are you dealing with a runner able to make the move quick enough in that short time period to get away by bouncing outside, in such a case you are dealing with an elite runner and it doesn't matter what position you are talking about with instant pressure.

And pertaining to that last sentence, that's not necessarily true at all, Donald had more stops than most OLBs, including Miller, not Mack but most.

Edited May 11, 2016 by VeiledPsychosis

[VeiledPsychosis]

1 minute ago, allblackraven said:

If I had to choose, I'd rather pay $100 mil Donald than Miller.

I'm with you on that, I'm not arguing for Miller against Donald. Frankly I think Miller is kind of overrated, as an all around player anyway, there's no denying he can rush the passer when he feels like it.

[BmoreBird22]

13 minutes ago, VeiledPsychosis said:

Like I said: I realize that edge players will always have better stats on paper than inside defenders, we can stop going back and forth agreeing on this.

"I'd imagine most teams want to run outside because if they can get the edge, they usually only have to beat a man in the secondary for a big gain." Exactly my point, an edge defender is on an island tasked with covering lots of yardage whereas inside defenders (especially in the 4-3) only have to handle a small area between them and the next guy. And I'd  argue that the rest of that paragraph can be said about both, if the edge is locked down the runner can cut it inside (which would pad the DT's stats and lets not act as if Donald hasn't had fantastic edge defenders on that Rams defensive front, which is also an argument pertaining to his pass rush prowess, he's never had a supporting cast anywhere near as bad as Mack, in fact his supporting cast since being drafted has arguably been the best in the league...)

If a DT gets pressure then the runner can bounce it outside which would easily benefit and pad the OLB's stats but why is the same not true for DTs when edge players get immediate pressure? usually if any DT gets immediate pressure on a run play, barring a missed tackle, they are able to get the runner no problem. Only in rare cases are you dealing with a runner able to make the move quick enough in that short time period to get away by bouncing outside, in such a case you are dealing with an elite runner and it doesn't matter what position you are pertaining to with instant pressure.

And pertaining to that last sentence, that's not necessarily true at all, Donald had more stops than most OLBs, including Miller, not Mack but most.

I'd encourage you to check the Rams 2015 season because his supporting cast was injured for much of the year and he really never had his two healthy defensive ends to help him out. One ended up on IR and was playing sparingly throughout the entire season and the other played for most of the season, but started very few games. Donald was doing quite a bit on his own this year. Conversely, I'd say the Raiders put a ton of effort into rebuilding that front seven and did a fairly decent job of landing some good defensive lineman and a wingman to Mack.

An edge defender is tasked with holding the edge, not covering lots of yardage. If that edge defender is not chasing down the cutback, but rather running down the play to the outside on his side, he's failed his job as an edge defender and there's really nothing more to be said about that. 

You are actually correct that Donald racked up more stuffs than both Miller and Mack. It was 13, 2, and 12 respectively. I'm surprised to see that, honestly, but I suppose it makes sense because Donald is an animal.

In any case, this is a really pointless argument to have. The initial comment pertained to who is harder to gameplan for and someone basically said Mack is hardest because he has the most sacks. I'm saying that's wrong and I'm done arguing because it's getting way convoluted and pointless.

Edited May 11, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[Daft Classic]

15 minutes ago, VeiledPsychosis said:

I'm with you on that, I'm not arguing for Miller against Donald. Frankly I think Miller is kind of overrated, as an all around player anyway, there's no denying he can rush the passer when he feels like it.

For my Team's sake, he better be feeling like it

[VeiledPsychosis]

10 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

An edge defender is tasked with holding the edge, not covering lots of yardage. If that edge defender is not chasing down the cutback, but rather running down the play to the outside on his side, he's failed his job as an edge defender and there's really nothing more to be said about that. 

You are actually correct that Donald racked up more stuffs than both Miller and Mack. It was 13, 2, and 12 respectively. I'm surprised to see that, honestly, but I suppose it makes sense because Donald is an animal.

They're tasked with holding the edge, which is just about not letting the runner get outside, not about standing their ground from the start. There's always swing blockers on outside run plays, it's their job as edge defenders on run plays to force the running inside where they are. It's a success so long as the runner doesn't get outside. It's entirely unreasonable to expect any edge defender to stand their ground against swing lineman coming out to block them, to call it a failure if they aren't able to stop the run at the point of attack is just not possible on most plays if they are picked up by a blocker, by the time they get free from the blocker it will be too late to get the TFL and they are usually chasing the player down well after they've passed the LOS.

Edited May 11, 2016 by VeiledPsychosis

[-Truth-]

14 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

They admitted that their tight end definitely pulled up the overall grade, but apparently this accounted for every the top four receivers, not just top three, so one player isn't going to severely skew the average to put them at fourth with five players being taken into account. 

When I watched the Panthers, they had some issues with drops, but those guys had wheels and their issue was not with getting open or making plays. Those guys could win at any point in the game, and they often did. I'd imagine their grades were heavily pulled down by drops, but as a unit, they all performed better than anyone would have thought.

No, not a single one was a superstar, but when taking into account all his receivers, they were all a piece in the puzzle that all fulfilled their roles very well and really played well all things considered. No, it wasn't to the level of Arizona or Pitt, but it definitely was not a passing game like Baltimore has historically been where the top guy really dominates the catches and yardage. 

That they did, and I was glad to hear them state that he made up a large portion of the grade. That being said, their WRs received no higher than a 76.0 (43rd) at the position, with an average of 73.8 among the four. Their 2nd best receiving grade came from the WR with the least amount of snaps in the entire group. Considering that their lowest grade also came from the WR with the 2nd most snaps and the most overall starts, one could very well infer that the standardized formula which yielded the measuring stick is an improper representation of the performance of their most commonly used personnel. To touch upon the first notion, their TE amassed a whopping 95.4. That ups the difference in the overall average among the five players by a whopping 4.3 points, which is staggering considering that when their rankings of the receiving corps were released in November, the 4th and 10th teams were separated by that exact figure, 4.3 points.

I do agree with regards to foot speed. That aside, I feel that the part about the WRs often winning match ups is overstated. I've went back to the tape and I simply did not come away with the same conclusion as Newton's ball placement and timing alleviated the pressure of creating separation, especially on in-breaking routes. None of the receivers were outright woeful and they deserve credit for providing a stable of dependable role players. However, that is simply what they were, so the point about the lack of superstars isn't furthered enough. When breaking down the roster, it's entirely debatable whether the stable they fielded at WR had a single starter worthy member. I firmly stand by my point about their lack of talent at the position in 2015.

[allblackraven]

@KDUBB44 has been skipped

@ALSKAN RAVEN FAN's pick is in, @BOLDnPurPnBlacK is on the clock.

Edited May 11, 2016 by allblackraven

[CalvinSmoke]

Was hoping Brees would fall some more lol