[News] Eisenberg: Be Careful with the 'Choirboy' Narrative

[BR News]

Sure, they want ‘character’ guys, as every team does. But the Ravens aren’t averse to taking risks.

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[Raven_Don]

No problem with choir boys... as long as they are ball players... who are physical...

[ryananth]

Yanda and Williams are our perfect "choirboys". Beasts on the filed but conduct themselves as gentlemen off of it. Funny that we're now having to point negative things to make us look like we still have an edge. This kind of reminds of when Ben Carson said he once pulled a knife on a guy to make himself look tough.

[Peej]

Look at Yanda: He's considered one of the best (and toughest) lineman in the NFL, but you NEVER hear his name off the field!

Look at Flacco: After finishing the drive with a torn ACL and PCL, can anyone doubt his toughness?

There's a world of difference between being "hardnosed" and being a "thug"!

 

Edited May 3, 2016 by Peej

[ravens4life86]

Look I like the draft...but the people are right in "Choir boy" notion

Harbs kicked Boldin,Pollard, and a bunch of Alpha males off the team..
And every draft since Harbaugh been around... "Have put more emphasis on the "character" aspect of players then just being Gamechangers.

When Ozzie drafted by himself he got Ray,Ed,Ja.Lewis,McAlister, Suggs,Ngata,Etc etc
Not "YES MEN" Alpha Men Gamechangers

And Now..in the Draft proccess...If Von Miller is Sitting there possibly (Noah Spence) who may have a little drug baggage..
They would rather take a Paul Kruger developmental guys like Correa,Koufusi..
Who wont be 2nd contract cornerstone players..because THEY ARE CHOIR BOY Yes Men.

Thats the Harbaugh oroblem..taking lesser talent, for yes men..and character.

Character doesnt win Wins...
You know what does..Von Miller,

[rmcjacket23]

Look I like the draft...but the people are right in "Choir boy" notion

Harbs kicked Boldin,Pollard, and a bunch of Alpha males off the team..
And every draft since Harbaugh been around... "Have put more emphasis on the "character" aspect of players then just being Gamechangers.

When Ozzie drafted by himself he got Ray,Ed,Ja.Lewis,McAlister, Suggs,Ngata,Etc etc
Not "YES MEN" Alpha Men Gamechangers

And Now..in the Draft proccess...If Von Miller is Sitting there possibly (Noah Spence) who may have a little drug baggage..
They would rather take a Paul Kruger developmental guys like Correa,Koufusi..
Who wont be 2nd contract cornerstone players..because THEY ARE CHOIR BOY Yes Men.

Thats the Harbaugh oroblem..taking lesser talent, for yes men..and character.

Character doesnt win Wins...
You know what does..Von Miller,

LOL, Von Miller doesn't win. He wins when he has a great defense and great team around him, just like every other player.

He wins when he's playing on a rookie deal and his team can pay top dollar to FAs.

Lets revisit again when Von signs an $18-20M deal and see how much "winning" he does.

Ask JJ Watt.

[TheConquerorWorm]

It's just tired rhetoric from Mike Preston and his sheeple (you know the ones on here). They want more "Alpha dogs". Like Mike Preston would know what an Alpha dog is anyway (He let a guy named Schmuck become the go to columnist)....lol

Yanda = Alpha Dog
Brandon Williams = Alpha Dog
CJ Mosley = Alpha Dog
SSS = Alpha Dog
Crocket Gillmore = Alpha Dog
Eric Weddle = Alpha Dog
Etc, Etc, Etc

I guess in their mind, players that run their mouth are considered Alpha dogs - doesn't matter if they can play or not. Bernard Pollard is their "poster boy" for Alpha Dog - he's been cut by 4 teams and is currently on the street (2 years running) because he can't play.

Label them how you want - Lawrence Phillips was an Alpha dog and Jonathan Ogden was a choirboy. I know which one I'd take - Need I say more?

Edited May 3, 2016 by TheConquerorWorm

[OGPurple]

Yanda and Williams are our perfect "choirboys". Beasts on the filed but conduct themselves as gentlemen off of it. Funny that we're now having to point negative things to make us look like we still have an edge. This kind of reminds of when Ben Carson said he once pulled a knife on a guy to make himself look tough.

I was thinking the exact same thing...very corny to even have to have this discussion...

[codizzle]

"hey look, we're still big and mean" 

pretty pathetic article

[eze17]

How many of our "bad boy" players also got stupid penalties during critical moments of games in the past? Calling B. Scott, A. Thomas, B. Pollard, ect. How many times have I seen some of these Divas give the opposition a new set of downs so they can win a close game? More times than I care to think about. Being an alpha male is great, but acting like a bone-head doesn't make up for it. We all want tough football players, and I don't think you play football if your not into rough, physical confrontation.( Well, maybe some of the kickers are an exception. and Tom Brady.)

[ravens4life86]

@rmcjacket...

Im sorry who just won the SB MVP, oh right VON MILLER.

So you can get off subject and sidetrack the conversation... talking about well when his second contract comes up 20milliom player bs.. and no team around.

HELLO!!!! You obviously dont pay attention to football... Flaccos got paid and we havent had a team. So its a 2way street..you cant say its good to pay your QB.. but not your HOF Pass rusher.

And last I checked JJ Watt was 3x DPOY and Texans problem was NO QB.. so you making it a money issue is a joke..


Best players get PAID.

And yes VON Miller does Win Rings...
Hes got 1...
Regardless of depth etc..you need STARS

[ellicottraven]

I agree with the entire article Mr. Eisenberg. We the fans are quick to judge but isn't that what keeps the team on its toes? Why should contrarian views be dismissed regardless of where it lies on the spectrum of truth? Sometimes, it is important for the team ownership to get a gauge on fan sentiments because ultimately their pocket books line the team's coffers. Remember Cam Cameron?

[RavensDieHard21]

"hey look, we're still big and mean" 

pretty pathetic article

Lmao agreed. made no sense. There is nothing to prove. No doubt in my mind though, the Ravens passed on Spence because of character.

[patmanley27]

This will all be irrelevant when we win the Superbowl in 2017

[dirtybird66]

yeah,they give up an all pro cause he smokec alttle herb WHEN YOUNG,WHEN YOUNG,WHEN YOUNG,only to grab a guy thats an rear in the back of the draft.they contridict themselves on many levels,you think MARVIN LEWIS would of passed on a perrenial pro bowler like TUNSIL? the FINS hit the LOTTO on that pick. remember,nice guys do finnish last.

[rmcjacket23]

4 minutes ago, ravens4life86 said:

@rmcjacket...

Im sorry who just won the SB MVP, oh right VON MILLER.

So you can get off subject and sidetrack the conversation... talking about well when his second contract comes up 20milliom player bs.. and no team around.

HELLO!!!! You obviously dont pay attention to football... Flaccos got paid and we havent had a team. So its a 2way street..you cant say its good to pay your QB.. but not your HOF Pass rusher.

And last I checked JJ Watt was 3x DPOY and Texans problem was NO QB.. so you making it a money issue is a joke..


Best players get PAID.

And yes VON Miller does Win Rings...
Hes got 1...
Regardless of depth etc..you need STARS

Yup, he did win last year.

But why didn't he win in 2014? He was in the league then right? Shouldn't he have won that year?

Or what about 2013? He did play then right? Shouldn't he have won that year too?

Or what about 2012? He was in the league then too right?

Why hasn't JJ Watt won any rings? He's a STAR right? Best defensive player in the league and hasn't sniffed a SB. Why is that?

And yes, I can say pay your HOF QB but not your great pass rusher (Von Miller isn't near being a HOF pass rusher yet), because HOF QBs yield exponentially more value to a football team in the long run than great pass rushers do.

Who was the HOF pass rusher on the 2014 Patriots won won the SB? How about the 2013 Seahawks? Or how about the 2012 Ravens? Where were the HOF pass rushers who won the SB for those teams.

Classic fan overreaction. You look at the last SB champ and say "that's the only way you can win... you must do what they did or you will lose". And then, the very next season, the next SB champion does something completely different, and just shatters that theory into a million pieces.

Watch games guys. Watch games. Its the biggest team sport on the planet.

[RavensDieHard21]

@rmcjacket...

Im sorry who just won the SB MVP, oh right VON MILLER.

So you can get off subject and sidetrack the conversation... talking about well when his second contract comes up 20milliom player bs.. and no team around.

HELLO!!!! You obviously dont pay attention to football... Flaccos got paid and we havent had a team. So its a 2way street..you cant say its good to pay your QB.. but not your HOF Pass rusher.

And last I checked JJ Watt was 3x DPOY and Texans problem was NO QB.. so you making it a money issue is a joke..


Best players get PAID.

And yes VON Miller does Win Rings...
Hes got 1...
Regardless of depth etc..you need STARS

I don't really understand the point of this post because Von Miller coming out was far better than Noah Spence lol. Now if Von Miller was in this draft and he had a past ecstasy issue and we selected Ron Stanley over him than I would be ticked off. But none of that is really important.

I liked Spence over Correa, make no mistake about it, FO had character issue players on their board, but knocked them down significantly based on their character, e.g., John stating Tunsil was stil on the board when the Dolphins selected him.

Last issue is that defensive stars are worth the $, I'd pay JJ or Miller 18-20 million a year because those are the only two defensive players that can take over and wreck a game, Kuechly being strained by his position is just slightly behind them. Our problem is that we haven't really had any one deserving of that free market money besides McPhee, but we have guys that are really good like Williams that will be gobbled up by the money toss come next spring lol.

[EdBallhawkReed20]

My feeling on this draft overall is that it was a great draft in what the Ravens got. Ozzie wanted to get rotational pieces to replace what we lost in subpackages. As well as increasing the competition at CB, WR, and RB. Ozzie and company basically lied to the media in the final pre draft conference. They had a plan and did not follow through at all, so for the Ravens fans who are enraged by our draft I completely understand. Those who like the draft I also completely understand. I do feel it was entirely too safe and disagree with the first two picks of this years draft. We could have taken an immediate starter at a position of need. I really wanted Josh Doctson at WR, considering no matter what we do that is always the Ravens most lingering problem. They never found a true no.1 receiver. This year they had the no.6 pick. If you can't get the best DB at least get the best WR. We don't get to pick this high and more than likely won't for some time. Additionally have faith in your coaches for goodness sakes. Juan Castillo has done a great job developing our O-line. They seemed to show that type of faith with the CB's for Leslie Frazier why not OT as well. That could have been done in later rounds. This was not a good time to play safe. Myles Jack should have been selected in the 2nd round. That was a position of need and Jack wasn't just a 1st round but a top five pick. You contain mobile QB's from coming up or scrambling away from Suggs and Dumervil increasing their sacks with his presence alone. Which by the way the Ravens struggled against. RG3 did mess up his career vs. the Ravens, but we still lost that game. Mainly due to him being able to scramble away from the rush. When we play teams such as NE his presence would have helped a lot against Tom Brady who typically like to run no huddle to keep Baltimore from using its rotational players, so we did need immediate starters. Potential pro bowl caliber vs. a guaranteed back up just doesn't sound good to me with the no.36 pick. I understand the concern but their was tremendous upside. Just because a player is healthy does not mean he will contribute (Arthur Brown) and considering the best player available (C.J.Mosley) can keep a player like that from seeing playing time using that system. Which is why I prefer we draft the best player at a position of need moving forward...

[steelcityraven]

SMH.... we are really at a point where we need to defend taking character guys??? I get that we take a risk from time to time but the culture of our team should be so strong that when we bring somebody in with a character issue - they get on board here real quick and gravitate to our culture....That only happens if we make drafting character guys a priority! Not bring a character issue guy in and nobody lead this kid, allowing him to gravitate to the trouble... eventually hurting the entire team. (look at the Dolphins or the Vikings a few years ago - heck maybe even Cincy now).... that is not what any quality organization should be known for. It should be the opposite. The Raven way or the Patriot way, etc. I know that the Patriot comment will not be well received but the truth is... around the league they have been know to take players in (Randy Moss, Corey Dillion, Rodney Harrison, etc) from troubled pasts and they go up there and seem to reform. That should be the goal of every team... to have a strong enough -positive enough culture in the locker room that character issue guys conform... When we start apologizing for that... I am not sure what to think anymore!

[Space11jams]

It's just tired rhetoric from Mike Preston and his sheeple (you know the ones on here). They want more "Alpha dogs". Like Mike Preston would know what an Alpha dog is anyway (He let a guy named Schmuck become the go to columnist)....lol

Yanda = Alpha Dog
Brandon Williams = Alpha Dog
CJ Mosley = Alpha Dog
SSS = Alpha Dog
Crocket Gillmore = Alpha Dog
Eric Weddle = Alpha Dog
Etc, Etc, Etc

I guess in their mind, players that run their mouth are considered Alpha dogs - doesn't matter if they can play or not. Bernard Pollard is their "poster boy" for Alpha Dog - he's been cut by 4 teams and is currently on the street (2 years running) because he can't play.

Label them how you want - Lawrence Phillips was an Alpha dog and Jonathan Ogden was a choirboy. I know which one I'd take - Need I say more?

Speak on it!

[RRRRRavens]

For those who don't understand how the Raven FO uses the term "character" let me translate. What the Ravens want is DISCILINE and MATURITY both on the field and off. A perfect example of the lack of these traits was seen in the most recent playoffs when the Bengals Burfict essentially lost the game for them by his lack of discipline. Lack of these traits loses yards, games, seasons and playoffs.

[WNC-Raven]

12 minutes ago, EdBallhawkReed20 said:

RG3 did mess up his career vs. the Ravens, but we still lost that game. Mainly due to him being able to scramble away from the rush.

We lost that game because an unknown Kirk Cousins came in with 5 minutes to go and marched down the field for a game winning TD. Our entire game plan was designed to stop RGIII and the play action. When a pocket passer came in we werent mentally prepared and didnt have the time left to adjust. Even though it was a close game we were handling RGIII pretty well up to that point by not getting fooled too often and putting his but in the dirt. He was getting beat up long before Ngata sealed his fate.

[WNC-Raven]

1 hour ago, ravens4life86 said:

Look I like the draft...but the people are right in "Choir boy" notion

Harbs kicked Boldin,Pollard, and a bunch of Alpha males off the team..
And every draft since Harbaugh been around... "Have put more emphasis on the "character" aspect of players then just being Gamechangers.

When Ozzie drafted by himself he got Ray,Ed,Ja.Lewis,McAlister, Suggs,Ngata,Etc etc
Not "YES MEN" Alpha Men Gamechangers

And Now..in the Draft proccess...If Von Miller is Sitting there possibly (Noah Spence) who may have a little drug baggage..
They would rather take a Paul Kruger developmental guys like Correa,Koufusi..
Who wont be 2nd contract cornerstone players..because THEY ARE CHOIR BOY Yes Men.

Thats the Harbaugh oroblem..taking lesser talent, for yes men..and character.

Character doesnt win Wins...
You know what does..Von Miller,

Who's to say Biscotti didn't purposely hire Harbaugh because he wanted to change the teams identity? Isn't it more than possible the change in strategy is coming from the top? So many fans are critical of John and his no nonsense, keep your nose clean style but that is who he is and Steve knows that. This is a BIG business and I'm sure Biscotti would like to try and move his franchise up the list of most valuable teams. Only way to do that is to increase your fan base. Heck I still think of the Raiders as a rough, tough bunch of thugs because thats what they were when I was growing up.

[griffrb]

Hmmmmn? Interesting discussion. I think, we as Ravens fans want very hard nosed and very physical impact football players who make impact at the most critical time in a game that either wins the game or turns the game around. It does appear that we have lost our physicality over the past few years when we're not able to make a simple tackle. We're used to players showing emotion as they take no prisoners on the field; killer instincts - on the field. We're spoiled fans and we love what we love: hard-nosed, very physical football players who make impact consistently week in and week in - on the football field. If we can get that throughout the 53 man roster with character players - cool. I'm ok with a player who has an attitude and challenges coaches and after the decision is made, executes as directed. It keeps teams on an edge. BLUF: Winning cures all ails! Go Ravens!

[respecttheRaven]

This is one of the reasons for this article.http://www.russellstreetreport.com/2016/05/03/word-on-the-street/preston-contradicts-himself-ronnie-stanley/ He is not the only "fan" that I have seen this from either. Other team's calling us the "dirty birds" and the "thug" team. I will never question our FO for their draft picks.....will I understand them all, "No". But I am not the one spending months and months, and hundreds of man hours looking into these guy's backgrounds and history either. Our FO office is considered one of the best in the NFL......they know what they are doing!!!

[ravens4life86]

@WNC-Raven,
While I agree with your premise about wanting to increase value of team.. and fan base....
But the best and main way to do that is WIN RINGS.
Its no mistake, that a Teams value goes up after SB Wins and its Fans increase.

So..the whole needing Choir Boys..to improve Team value is a farce.

The Proof is in Jerry Jones. That guy is the Greatest Promotor outside Vince McMahon. And he fills hus team with questionable characters aslong as they are ALL PROs...and they are always tops in team Value..

So Character has nothing to do team value...
Heres what does..
Location..Thats why Kronke moved from St Louis to LA.. Increased value by like 500mil
Stadium.. if you have a Newer Stadium, or a MEGAPLEX like Jerry Jones..that holds Boxing,WWE,Concerts etc..more value..
3rd..Storied Franchise..Winning Tradition...SB RINGS..

Thats what creates Team Value.. not players character
You can have 53 buttholes and have richest NFL Team

Character is secondary

[fusuymada]

  1 hour ago, ravens4life86 said:

Look I like the draft...but the people are right in "Choir boy" notion

Harbs kicked Boldin,Pollard, and a bunch of Alpha males off the team..
And every draft since Harbaugh been around... "Have put more emphasis on the "character" aspect of players then just being Gamechangers.

When Ozzie drafted by himself he got Ray,Ed,Ja.Lewis,McAlister, Suggs,Ngata,Etc etc
Not "YES MEN" Alpha Men Gamechangers

And Now..in the Draft proccess...If Von Miller is Sitting there possibly (Noah Spence) who may have a little drug baggage..
They would rather take a Paul Kruger developmental guys like Correa,Koufusi..
Who wont be 2nd contract cornerstone players..because THEY ARE CHOIR BOY Yes Men.

Thats the Harbaugh oroblem..taking lesser talent, for yes men..and character.

Character doesnt win Wins...
You know what does..Von Miller,

Who's to say Biscotti didn't purposely hire Harbaugh because he wanted to change the teams identity? Isn't it more than possible the change in strategy is coming from the top? So many fans are critical of John and his no nonsense, keep your nose clean style but that is who he is and Steve knows that. This is a BIG business and I'm sure Biscotti would like to try and move his franchise up the list of most valuable teams. Only way to do that is to increase your fan base. Heck I still think of the Raiders as a rough, tough bunch of thugs because thats what they were when I was growing up.

I don't buy that Bisciotti hired Harbaugh to do anything other than coach. It is Bisciotti that has the final word on all questionable players which means that the boy scout, altar boy, choir boy approach is coming from the top of the food chain (owner) not farther down the line (coach). Bisciotti is running the Ravens like his temp personnel agency and this is the NFL and you can't do that. In the temp agency business your rep is everything, in the NFL it means nothing, wins and losses drive the bus. So while no one knows the final outcome of this draft (it takes three years) the direction the team has made regarding personnel since the Ray Rice incident is obvious, even to writers who are paid to toe the company line. Ozzie in the past has sought out those types of players in the past in both free agency and the draft so we know Ozzie has no problem with those players, but since the Ray Rice incident where Bisciotti was embarrassed by the video that came out, he has decided to run a clean team and he won't win that way, last year was proof. If we are better than 8-8 this year I will be shocked to the point of making a public apology. But I don't expect to be eating crow at the end of this season.

[Crusader]

"See what I mean? Be very, very careful." Sorry No I don't. The Lewis incident maybe they don't like Air force. This is a Navy town and the Weddle incident your not much of a man if you let that slide.
"All a team can do is try to improve its odds by adding players who won’t embarrass the franchise ... and also can play" You can get over embarrassed but you can't get over losing history or third place finishes.

[Crusader]

1 hour ago, WNC-Raven said:

2 hours ago, ravens4life86 said:

Look I like the draft...but the people are right in "Choir boy" notion

Harbs kicked Boldin,Pollard, and a bunch of Alpha males off the team..
And every draft since Harbaugh been around... "Have put more emphasis on the "character" aspect of players then just being Gamechangers.

When Ozzie drafted by himself he got Ray,Ed,Ja.Lewis,McAlister, Suggs,Ngata,Etc etc
Not "YES MEN" Alpha Men Gamechangers

And Now..in the Draft proccess...If Von Miller is Sitting there possibly (Noah Spence) who may have a little drug baggage..
They would rather take a Paul Kruger developmental guys like Correa,Koufusi..
Who wont be 2nd contract cornerstone players..because THEY ARE CHOIR BOY Yes Men.

Thats the Harbaugh oroblem..taking lesser talent, for yes men..and character.

Character doesnt win Wins...
You know what does..Von Miller,

Who's to say Biscotti didn't purposely hire Harbaugh because he wanted to change the teams identity? Isn't it more than possible the change in strategy is coming from the top? So many fans are critical of John and his no nonsense, keep your nose clean style but that is who he is and Steve knows that. This is a BIG business and I'm sure Biscotti would like to try and move his franchise up the list of most valuable teams. Only way to do that is to increase your fan base. Heck I still think of the Raiders as a rough, tough bunch of thugs because thats what they were when I was growing up.

This is so true. So now the Old guard is gone after 2012 lets see now this plays out. Its just like anything else.  The real change comes after time and the decisions that were made take affect.

Edited May 3, 2016 by The Mom Gene
Stop with the political references

[harfordravenfan]

2 hours ago, ravens4life86 said:

Look I like the draft...but the people are right in "Choir boy" notion

Harbs kicked Boldin,Pollard, and a bunch of Alpha males off the team..
And every draft since Harbaugh been around... "Have put more emphasis on the "character" aspect of players then just being Gamechangers.

When Ozzie drafted by himself he got Ray,Ed,Ja.Lewis,McAlister, Suggs,Ngata,Etc etc
Not "YES MEN" Alpha Men Gamechangers

And Now..in the Draft proccess...If Von Miller is Sitting there possibly (Noah Spence) who may have a little drug baggage..
They would rather take a Paul Kruger developmental guys like Correa,Koufusi..
Who wont be 2nd contract cornerstone players..because THEY ARE CHOIR BOY Yes Men.

Thats the Harbaugh oroblem..taking lesser talent, for yes men..and character.

Character doesnt win Wins...
You know what does..Von Miller,

You saying boldin was a thug, lacked character, or something to that nature? He's gone due to $, nothing more in my opinion