Passing on Myles Jack....

[Jaybirds]

13 minutes ago, flynismo said:

I wonder...say we took Jack, and he goes on to play one or two seasons for us and retires. Would all these people bashing Oz for not taking a chance on Jack be the same people who bash Oz for being so stupid to spend such an early pick on a guy with such obvious red flags?

Honestly, I think it depends on how well we do those two years.  One Super Bowl win, and fans will probably say it was worth it.   Two more seasons behind Cincinnati, and probably not.  I don't know if that makes them right or wrong.  But I think that's how it would play out.

[52520Andrew]

23 minutes ago, Jaybirds said:

Honestly, I think it depends on how well we do those two years.  One Super Bowl win, and fans will probably say it was worth it.   Two more seasons behind Cincinnati, and probably not.  I don't know if that makes them right or wrong.  But I think that's how it would play out.

I mean people defend the Upshaw pick for the play he made in the Super Bowl(not just that but it plays a big part in any defense of the pick I see). If Jack plays 2 years but plays a significant role in us winning a championship, I can't hate the pick. And even if he only plays 4 years for us, that is just like Torrey and K.O. I don't think anyone would consider those bad picks in hindsight.

[flynismo]

46 minutes ago, Jaybirds said:

Honestly, I think it depends on how well we do those two years.  One Super Bowl win, and fans will probably say it was worth it.   Two more seasons behind Cincinnati, and probably not.  I don't know if that makes them right or wrong.  But I think that's how it would play out.

Absolutely, if he plays a large role in us winning a SB, then heck yeah he was worth it.

But to be clear, my question was meant to be framed along the lines of "if he didn't play up to expectations for us due to his knee, and then retired after a couple years". I'm wondering what they would say then, because that is a very real possibility, unfortunately.

[Tru11]

53 minutes ago, flynismo said:

I wonder...say we took Jack, and he goes on to play one or two seasons for us and retires. Would all these people bashing Oz for not taking a chance on Jack be the same people who bash Oz for being so stupid to spend such an early pick on a guy with such obvious red flags?

i rather have 2 years of jack playing at ray lewis level then 4 years of whatever brown has given us so far for instance.

it simply will come down to what jack manages to do before he retires when ever that is and whatever correa does in that same time span or for a longer period.

Life is unpredictable though.
For all we know Correa falls down some stairs like kindle or is a huge bust like dan cody. 

I dont even want to imagine what the crying will be like when it comes to that.....

 

 

[Tru11]

3 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Absolutely, if he plays a large role in us winning a SB, then heck yeah he was worth it.

But to be clear, my question was meant to be framed along the lines of "if he didn't play up to expectations for us due to his knee, and then retired after a couple years". I'm wondering what they would say then, because that is a very real possibility, unfortunately.

people will complain regardless.

 

[JoDaClub]

I just don't get it. Going to the playoffs six out of the last eight years, the Ravens have been forced to draft developmental or specif role players.  There is no doubt that this strategy has worked, but over that time our play makers have either retired for left in free agency. You look at any other winning franchise and there are at least 3 to 4 guys on that team that their fans worship. The Ravens have Flacco, but he has the personality of a door knob. Plus he is overpaid based on his stats. Suggs?  Past his prime and the bleach incident doesn't help. 

Finally a play maker, Jack, fall in our lap and we take a developmental player.  I just don't get it.  

[Jaybirds]

20 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Absolutely, if he plays a large role in us winning a SB, then heck yeah he was worth it.

But to be clear, my question was meant to be framed along the lines of "if he didn't play up to expectations for us due to his knee, and then retired after a couple years". I'm wondering what they would say then, because that is a very real possibility, unfortunately.

Sorry, that's the point I was trying to make.  If he doesn't live up to his billing, but we still win, it will be okay.   I'm expecting the final outcome won't actually depend on his play.  It's more about how we remember his time here overall. 

Andrew added the part about him playing a significant part in our Super Bowl run.  I wasn't assuming that at all, and I wasn't trying to say that. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by Jaybirds

[JoeyFlex5]

11 minutes ago, JoDaClub said:

I just don't get it. Going to the playoffs six out of the last eight years, the Ravens have been forced to draft developmental or specif role players.  There is no doubt that this strategy has worked, but over that time our play makers have either retired for left in free agency. You look at any other winning franchise and there are at least 3 to 4 guys on that team that their fans worship. The Ravens have Flacco, but he has the personality of a door knob. Plus he is overpaid based on his stats. Suggs?  Past his prime and the bleach incident doesn't help. 

Finally a play maker, Jack, fall in our lap and we take a developmental player.  I just don't get it.  

Playmakers don't make plays from the trainers table.

[Jaybirds]

36 minutes ago, JoDaClub said:

I just don't get it. Going to the playoffs six out of the last eight years, the Ravens have been forced to draft developmental or specif role players.  There is no doubt that this strategy has worked, but over that time our play makers have either retired for left in free agency. You look at any other winning franchise and there are at least 3 to 4 guys on that team that their fans worship. The Ravens have Flacco, but he has the personality of a door knob. Plus he is overpaid based on his stats. Suggs?  Past his prime and the bleach incident doesn't help. 

Finally a play maker, Jack, fall in our lap and we take a developmental player.  I just don't get it.  

I'm not sure what you're looking for here.  Do you want playmakers?  Do you want guys the fans will worship?  Do you want personality?   If we're just talking about playmakers, then the rest doesn't really matter. 

As for our playmakers:   Flacco, Suggs, Wallace and Weddle are proven playmakers.  You could almost add Tucker to the list to be honest.  Judon, Reynolds, Dixon and Young were all playmakers last year in college.  Let's see how their game translates.   And that's not including Correa, Kaufusi, Pitta/Maxx at tight end, and someone claiming the RB job.   There's definitely some what-if guys on that list. But we have more playmaking potential for next year than we did last year.  That need has been addressed. 

[ALPHA]

7 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Playmakers don't make plays from the trainers table.

I think this is where it begins and ends, I'm sick of hearing the same names with injury designations and on IR and I'm sure the front office is too. Hopefully this is a permanent thing.

[mc_red23]

He's come out with the usual nonsense of "I can't wait to prove my doubters wrong." 

Is he not meant to be intelligent or something? I've not seen or heard one person doubt his ability. 

[rmw10]

10 minutes ago, mc_red23 said:

He's come out with the usual nonsense of "I can't wait to prove my doubters wrong." 

Is he not meant to be intelligent or something? I've not seen or heard one person doubt his ability. 

I mean, 30 of 32 teams did pass on him.  I'd say you could classify them as doubters.

[JoeyFlex5]

10 hours ago, 52520Andrew said:

I mean people defend the Upshaw pick for the play he made in the Super Bowl(not just that but it plays a big part in any defense of the pick I see). If Jack plays 2 years but plays a significant role in us winning a championship, I can't hate the pick. And even if he only plays 4 years for us, that is just like Torrey and K.O. I don't think anyone would consider those bad picks in hindsight.

This is an excellent point but then you also have to realize that our FO clearly isn't about selling out to win now. They have been in a long term building mode for a while now which is why they are so willing to pay Joe but they stay patient in the market. If they think Jack is out of the league in 4 years then it simply doesn't fit their plans. Correa has real potential to take over for suggs in the future, they could see a 8 year starter for us by year 2 or 3, which is what they want, a 2nd round pick on a guy who has very severe medical issues is a big risk and we want to compete for the next 8-10 years so avoiding short term sellouts is the best bet to do that.

[mc_red23]

33 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I mean, 30 of 32 teams did pass on him.  I'd say you could classify them as doubters.

There's a huge difference between not believing in somebody's talent and not knowing if he'll reach a 2nd contract though. 

[52520Andrew]

Just now, JoeyFlex5 said:

This is an excellent point but then you also have to realize that our FO clearly isn't about selling out to win now. They have been in a long term building mode for a while now which is why they are so willing to pay Joe but they stay patient in the market. If they think Jack is out of the league in 4 years then it simply doesn't fit their plans. Correa has real potential to take over for suggs in the future, they could see a 8 year starter for us by year 2 or 3, which is what they want, a 2nd round pick on a guy who has very severe medical issues is a big risk and we want to compete for the next 8-10 years so avoiding short term sellouts is the best bet to do that.

The way I see it, a draft pick is only good for 4 years(5 years if a first rounder). After that you have to pay them or franchise them like everyone else. Sure we have rights to retaining them but people change teams all the time and we have let quite a few FAs go over the years. If Jack plays 4 years before the knee gets him while Correa plays 4 years at a decent level and we lose him in FA, which would you rather have? The only time I think you think about a player being there for the next decade are first round picks and guys who become absolute studs if you get an absolute steal. I mean how many people are still around from our Super Bowl winning team? I'll also throw in that I am pretty sure the last 2nd round pick we brought back on a second contract was Ray Rice, lotta guys hitting FA. 

And just so no one gets the wrong idea, I am playing this completely hypothetically. I am not insulting anyone in our FO and if our doctors did not like Jack at the selection, they certainly know a lot more than some guy on the internet who has never even seen the guy in person. Also if Correa becomes the next Suggs, it is an easy decision that we would rather have him. I am not sold that Jack even makes it 4 years on that knee, I am just looking at this situation with a bit of a broader lens. I think rookie deals are what make and break teams right now in the NFL outside of QB play and that you gotta get the best value over that deal that you can because those deals are so good compared to what vets are getting paid. If you get a huge impact player for 4 years but don't get him after that, I'd still take it over someone that does decent but doesn't reach that level(again not saying Correa will bust or Jack will even play 4 years) because the value over that deal will be so good and you aren't making up value once you get on a second contract since you are getting paid market value. 

[ALPHA]

1 hour ago, mc_red23 said:

There's a huge difference between not believing in somebody's talent and not knowing if he'll reach a 2nd contract though. 

Jack was on our board, he was just dropped two rounds.

[ravensdan]

I hear a lot about Jacks knee long term. But it's yet to be seen if he will contribute anything this year. And who's to say he will be the same the following year. When he didn't go to any of the playoff teams you know there is a universal large concern here. Not a mystery. 

[Jaybirds]

It's difficult for me to call anyone his doubters, when he's the guy who said 3 above average years.  Believing him when he said that isn't "doubting". 

[RavensDieHard21]

Jack is a gamble and the Jags were the perfect team to pick him as they are in the basement of the NFL, but have a lot of quality young players, if Jack pans out then they have a really dynamic defense. If he doesn't then it is nothing more devastating than they are already used to. 

[thieverycorporation]

You guys are beating a dead horse. Bury him and move on. I remember The Tyrann Mathieu non pick burned my grits but you at sometime have to let it go. We all lost some favorites in this draft. But most of our roster is from picks basically never heard of. My last words about Jack are they didn't value him as high due to injury and we should all hope he has a great career regardless of whom he plays for. May the best team win………..

[Tru11]

Correa has been the 21st player we have drafted in the 2nd round so far.

to early to say what will happen with maxx and jernigan which leaves us with 18 2nd round picks.

Off those 18 Rice is the only guy who landed a long term 2nd year contract with us and i highly doubt arthur brown is going to get 1.

Take this as you want but given our history id say that its a pretty silly excuse to pass on a talent as jack.

Time will tell though.

Gonna be interesting if Correa pulls a kruger by not contributing at all except in his last season and then bails.
At least kruger helped to win a SB though.

[Inqui]

20 hours ago, ravensdan said:

I hear a lot about Jacks knee long term. But it's yet to be seen if he will contribute anything this year. And who's to say he will be the same the following year. When he didn't go to any of the playoff teams you know there is a universal large concern here. Not a mystery. 

What I find mildly amusing is that people seem to think they know more about Jack's knee than the NFL FOs (not just Ozzie, but the 29 other guys who let him get to the Jags' second pick). Having an opinion about him is fine, but as fans it's all just speculation for us. You and I and everyone else are just random nobodies on the internet, while FOs have access to the full medical report on his knee and specialists to interpret it and offer the best input on whether he'll hold up to the rigors of an NFL training program and the knocks he'll inevitably take. The best access we get to that is guys like Ian Rapoport giving a one-sentence summary based on what they've heard, yet there are people acting like passing on Jack was a colossal mistake like they know something Ozzie (and the other GMs) don't. I know GMs aren't infallible, but this is one of those cases where, despite my opinions, I'll 100% defer to them.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Inqui

[thieverycorporation]

37 minutes ago, Inqui said:

What I find mildly amusing is that people seem to think they know more about Jack's knee than the NFL FOs (not just Ozzie, but the 29 other guys who let him get to the Jags' second pick). Having an opinion about him is fine, but as fans it's all just speculation for us. You and I and everyone else are just random nobodies on the internet, while FOs have access to the full medical report on his knee and specialists to interpret it and offer the best input on whether he'll hold up to the rigors of an NFL training program and the knocks he'll inevitably take. The best access we get to that is guys like Ian Rapoport giving a one-sentence summary based on what they've heard, yet there are people acting like passing on Jack was a colossal mistake like they know something Ozzie (and the other GMs) don't. I know GMs aren't infallible, but this is one of those cases where, despite my opinions, I'll 100% defer to them.

Well said.

[Dame2]

One of the Ravens UDR Patrick Onwuasor a MLB and played safety had 9ints.

[ALPHA]

Jack is still an unproven rookie, annointing him as the new Ray Lewis when he hasnt played a down seems pointless. Ive seen countless linebackers referred to as the next Ray, and only Patrick Willis came close.

[usmccharles]

16 hours ago, ALPHA said:

Jack is still an unproven rookie, annointing him as the new Ray Lewis when he hasnt played a down seems pointless. Ive seen countless linebackers referred to as the next Ray, and only Patrick Willis came close.

Sadly there will never be another Ray, i think thats some of the thrill of getting a guy like Jack, we want that next guy.   After Suggs is gone, we wont have any voice on defense, i know that doesnt equate to wins, but i will miss Suggs mouthing off....just like i miss Ray's speeches

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

1 hour ago, usmccharles said:

Sadly there will never be another Ray, i think thats some of the thrill of getting a guy like Jack, we want that next guy.   After Suggs is gone, we wont have any voice on defense, i know that doesnt equate to wins, but i will miss Suggs mouthing off....just like i miss Ray's speeches

There will be another Ray... There was one before him named Dick Butkus. He's a once in a generational talent and truth be told, that generational player is currently in the NFL on a team that just lost the SB. I think Luke is going to come very close. He's an animal and one of maybe three(Von Miller, Aaron Donald, and one day Khalil Mack) that I'd put up there with Watt on the god tier of defensive players. 

 

The guy that there will never be another one of is Ed Reed. That's a once in a lifetime player and we struck gold. 

[usmccharles]

1 hour ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

There will be another Ray... There was one before him named Dick Butkus. He's a once in a generational talent and truth be told, that generational player is currently in the NFL on a team that just lost the SB. I think Luke is going to come very close. He's an animal and one of maybe three(Von Miller, Aaron Donald, and one day Khalil Mack) that I'd put up there with Watt on the god tier of defensive players. 

 

The guy that there will never be another one of is Ed Reed. That's a once in a lifetime player and we struck gold. 

I meant there will never be a Ray Lewis for us.  There will always be more transcendent players, just the way it works.  A lot of the Ravens fans (imo) miss that face of the franchise.  Yes we have Joe and Suggs, but its just not the same for obvious reasons. 

[jdynamite]

On 4/30/2016 at 0:04 AM, sflegend89 said:

 I'm usually a massive Ozzie/Eric supporter, I'm usually defending them during the draft. Tonight they have done something so incredibly inept for our football team I don't know if I will sleep tonight.

It's this simple, the reward out weighed the risk. It's not like we passed on Jack and got a super polished pro-ready player with no significant risk. Correa has upside but he's a risk himself, he's pretty boom or bust. How do you pass on a top 5 talent risk for a 2nd round caliber risk? We opted for getting a base hit over trying to knock it out of the park. In the 2nd round that's not acceptable. When you get a chance to hit it out of the park in the 2nd round you take it, if you strike out so be it, it was worth it.

Look, Jack could play 1 season and retire, it was still the wrong decision. Because you know what else could happen? He could persevere and be the best ILB in football for 5-8 years. That my friends is called risk-reward and in the 2nd round you accept those two realities with a smile on your face. I envy Dallas and Jacksonville for sharing that mentality with me, they could be totally wrong and neither Jaylon or Myles Jack ever pan out because of their knee's.. but you know what? It was worth the risk. 

 

I wanted Myles Jack badly at that pick, and I read an article that doctors no longer fear he will have a degenerative knee but the Jags still slowly put him into the defense.  

We basically played Correa as if he was the one with massive  injury concerns. 

With that said all together trading out the pick with the Jags, led to a second trade with dolphins and got the team :

Pick #42 K.Correa (from Miami ), #107 (from Miami ) C.Moore, #146 (from Jags) M.Judon  

Judon seems like he will become a contributor to the defense going forward, C.Moore actually made a contribution with his special teams play, limited WR target, Correa tbd. 

Honestly the second trade is more questionable for me because either CB X.Howard picked 38th (by Miami) or DE/OLB Noah Spence picked 39th (By Tampa) would have been good additions to the defense. 

 

[jdynamite]

On 4/30/2016 at 9:21 AM, ALPHA said:

Smith's leg will get better, Jack's leg will get worse. Every team has been burned by injury busts so you can't blame them for being hesitant.

Although I believe Smith's leg will be fine based off Sean Spence recovering from similar injury multiple ligaments and nerve damage. It's the nerve damage that makes Jaylon's Smith worse. 

Myles Jack candor let teams to think he would immediately need microfracture surgery but that has since been dismissed. https://www.google.com/amp/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/2016/4/29/11540586/myles-jack-knee-injury-nfl-draft-surgery?client=safari

He may still have an injury in the future but that can be said for anyone, problem is if Jack goes down people will scream "told you so".