Why all the hate?

[usmccharles]

3 hours ago, Winchester said:

 

  However i do not care for the Correa pick. He should never of been so overhyped in my opinion. Henry is a solid pick but Ridgeway has the tools to be a total stud. I'm not crazy bout the tavon young pick. While tough for his size witb good ball skills but he looks like he is not very fluid or sudden. And some better cornerbacks were available like Ryan Smith Harlan Miller and Robinson who is the best cornerbackin the draft.  

 

Where was he overhyped?  I didn't come across any hype, at all reading tons of pre-draft stuff. When we drafted him...I had no idea who he was. 

[GrimCoconut]

31 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Where was he overhyped?  I didn't come across any hype, at all reading tons of pre-draft stuff. When we drafted him...I had no idea who he was. 

I think he means after we drafted him. He's probably remarking on those saying Correa is the most explosive OLB in the class. 

[Jacquouille]

10 hours ago, ravensdan said:

What?  Ok you are definitely overthinking things. Whatever set up you want to dream up Doom is our best pass rusher and needs to be rushing on passing downs. 

Ah, probably. I didn't see Doom playing last year or in Denver, and heard he wasn't confortable as a DE. But if he is, good for us.

[usmccharles]

13 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I think he means after we drafted him. He's probably remarking on those saying Correa is the most explosive OLB in the class. 

Ah understandable.  I literally never heard of him and I mentioned before how people were hyping up the guys we drafted just because we drafted them. 

[Jaybirds]

1 hour ago, usmccharles said:

Ah understandable.  I literally never heard of him and I mentioned before how people were hyping up the guys we drafted just because we drafted them. 

CBS had him ranked as the 4th best OLB in this class all winter behind Jack, Darron Lee, and Leonard Floyd.  He came up in the Edge Rushers thread in this forum as an alternative after the first round.  Heck, I mentioned him on the first page of the Draft Day 2 thread, but he didn't seem relevant to anyone with Spence still on the board. 

Correa got talked about a lot more once we drafted him.  But he didn't exactly come out of nowhere, either. 

[Winchester]

16 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Where was he overhyped?  I didn't come across any hype, at all reading tons of pre-draft stuff. When we drafted him...I had no idea who he was. 

Duuuuude how did you miss that?? lol Nfl network dudes were saying he has elite raw tools and were saying he could end up being drafted in round1. I do not care for him. He is not flexible or strong. And He is a drag down tackler. He looks to struggle often getting qbs much lighter than him to the ground. I would of much preferred Ngakoue over him. His best position could be 4-3 strong lb. Cuz he has very good burst and long speed and could be a very good blitzer cuz of his position being defensive end, rush olb. But his stiff play could hurt him in coverage trying to cover running backs and athletic  TEs. And his hits are kind of unimpressive so far from what I saw. But there is a chance he could flourish as a4-3 strong Linebacker with his burst,energy and blitz experience. Much like Boulware played that position. But as a defensive end or 3-4 rush olb he is a total bust there in my opinion and will not beat nfl tackles. Sorry If that offends  but I do not like the pick.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Winchester

[JoeyFlex5]

32 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Duuuuude how did you miss that?? lol Nfl network dudes were saying he has elite raw tools and were saying he could end up being drafted in round1. I do not care for him. He is not flexible or strong. And He is a drag down tackler. He looks to struggle often getting qbs much lighter than him to the ground. I would of much preferred Ngakoue over him. His best position could be 4-3 strong lb. Cuz he has very good burst and long speed and could be a very good blitzer cuz of his position being defensive end, rush olb. But his stiff play could hurt him in coverage trying to cover running backs and athletic  TEs. And his hits are kind of unimpressive so far from what I saw. But there is a chance he could flourish as a4-3 strong Linebacker with his burst,energy and blitz experience. Much like Boulware played that position. But as a defensive end or 3-4 rush olb he is a total bust there in my opinion and will not beat nfl tackles. Sorry If that offends  but I do not like the pick.

I don't know how you say he's a drag down tackler. He drives THROUGH the player. His tackles are textbook and powerful when it's beneficial and not risky. Not all hits can be like that though. You often say things about Correa that leave me scratching my head.

 

Also, ngakoue? C'mon man, anyone who has watched the film knows who the better player is, it shouldn't even be a question.

[Winchester]

9 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I don't know how you say he's a drag down tackler. He drives THROUGH the player. His tackles are textbook and powerful when it's beneficial and not risky. Not all hits can be like that though. You often say things about Correa that leave me scratching my head.

 

Also, ngakoue? C'mon man, anyone who has watched the film knows who the better player is, it shouldn't even be a question.

Watch more of his games not his highlights where is a drag down tackler even on his highlights. Correa may be a little more polished but he is not even close to Ngakoue at rushing the qb!!  LBs can sharpen the edges lb responsibilities. But if he doesn't have enough juice to beat tackles and get to the qb then he will never be a good edge rusher. And there is not a chance in he// he will beat nfl tackles. Ngakoue has the raw skills to be a good edge rusher. We will revisit this thread when it becomes apparent he is never going to be a feared edge rusher. I will bet money with odds  he is not going to be a great or very good edge rusher.

[usmccharles]

2 hours ago, Winchester said:

Duuuuude how did you miss that?? lol Nfl network dudes were saying he has elite raw tools and were saying he could end up being drafted in round1. I do not care for him. He is not flexible or strong. And He is a drag down tackler. He looks to struggle often getting qbs much lighter than him to the ground. I would of much preferred Ngakoue over him. His best position could be 4-3 strong lb. Cuz he has very good burst and long speed and could be a very good blitzer cuz of his position being defensive end, rush olb. But his stiff play could hurt him in coverage trying to cover running backs and athletic  TEs. And his hits are kind of unimpressive so far from what I saw. But there is a chance he could flourish as a4-3 strong Linebacker with his burst,energy and blitz experience. Much like Boulware played that position. But as a defensive end or 3-4 rush olb he is a total bust there in my opinion and will not beat nfl tackles. Sorry If that offends  but I do not like the pick.

Theres one of my problems, I don't have cable, at all.  So my coverage of everything is pretty basic. 

1 hour ago, Winchester said:

Watch more of his games not his highlights where is a drag down tackler even on his highlights. Correa may be a little more polished but he is not even close to Ngakoue at rushing the qb!!  LBs can sharpen the edges lb responsibilities. But if he doesn't have enough juice to beat tackles and get to the qb then he will never be a good edge rusher. And there is not a chance in he// he will beat nfl tackles. Ngakoue has the raw skills to be a good edge rusher. We will revisit this thread when it becomes apparent he is never going to be a feared edge rusher. I will bet money with odds  he is not going to be a great or very good edge rusher.

Curious on what that bar is for being great or a very good edge rusher.  Obviously I hope he is great at what he does.   I cant really give much opinion on him so I will leave it to you guys and just read. 

[JoeyFlex5]

3 hours ago, Winchester said:

Watch more of his games not his highlights where is a drag down tackler even on his highlights. Correa may be a little more polished but he is not even close to Ngakoue at rushing the qb!!  LBs can sharpen the edges lb responsibilities. But if he doesn't have enough juice to beat tackles and get to the qb then he will never be a good edge rusher. And there is not a chance in he// he will beat nfl tackles. Ngakoue has the raw skills to be a good edge rusher. We will revisit this thread when it becomes apparent he is never going to be a feared edge rusher. I will bet money with odds  he is not going to be a great or very good edge rusher.

For starters, I don't watch highlights. I watch actual film, extensively, you've argued with me enough on these boards to know I don't base judgements off of highlights, get real.. 

 

Secondly, correa isn't just more polished, ngakoue is completely clueless and most of his sacks came from blown blocking assignments in garbage time. Anytime ngakoue actually faces a blocker he is neutralized with ease almost every single time, he is a complete non factor for a large majority of every game and he literally either gets a good jump or capitalizes on a blown block. If you wanna talk about a drag down tackler ngakoue is the worst, He wraps arms up high and takes 2 or 3 spins to make what should be an easy tackle, he tackles like an alligator catches a meal, he tries to spin and spin until they lose balance and gives up yards every time. 

 

And idk where you get this ridiculous idea that he does have the "juice". He is the most explosive off the snap in this class, has some of the best closing speed in this Class, and plays tough and violent, far more than ngakoue. Sure he could stand to bulk up a bit but he appears far from maxed out and polynesians simply don't struggle to bulk up, especially at age 21 when they aren't fully developed yet.

 

Again, head scratching.

[GrimCoconut]

8 hours ago, Winchester said:

Watch more of his games not his highlights where is a drag down tackler even on his highlights. Correa may be a little more polished but he is not even close to Ngakoue at rushing the qb!!  LBs can sharpen the edges lb responsibilities. But if he doesn't have enough juice to beat tackles and get to the qb then he will never be a good edge rusher. And there is not a chance in he// he will beat nfl tackles. Ngakoue has the raw skills to be a good edge rusher. We will revisit this thread when it becomes apparent he is never going to be a feared edge rusher. I will bet money with odds  he is not going to be a great or very good edge rusher.

I recall reading somewhere that teams didn't like Ngakoue's attitude and that he rolled his eyes at times when teams worked him out privately or at the Combine in ways he didn't like. This illustrates a possible attitude problem that may make him difficult to coach at the next level. 

I actually agree that I like Correa best as a 4-3 SAM but I don't think that's an insult because Von Miller played that role for years and still sorta plays there and is effective there.

I think Correa will be used some as an ILB and OLB after hearing Harbaugh speak on him in one of the pressers. 

[trevorsteadman]

1 hour ago, GrimCoconut said:

I recall reading somewhere that teams didn't like Ngakoue's attitude and that he rolled his eyes at times when teams worked him out privately or at the Combine in ways he didn't like. This illustrates a possible attitude problem that may make him difficult to coach at the next level. 

I actually agree that I like Correa best as a 4-3 SAM but I don't think that's an insult because Von Miller played that role for years and still sorta plays there and is effective there.

I think Correa will be used some as an ILB and OLB after hearing Harbaugh speak on him in one of the pressers. 

The most used comparison for Correa is Clay Matthews. He plays that role it is hard to compare but I think this may be the closest one. If Correa packs on about 10 pounds more of muscle he will be about where Clay is now. Matthews has played both roles well in the NFL and I think that Correa can be that guy we can use at both positions. I think he can still set the edge because he is quick getting off of blocks, but I wouldn't doubt hearing when OTA's start that he is taking snaps next to Mosley. He can be that linebacker swiss army knife. 

[Winchester]

You guys are going to be very disappointed in Correa if ravens try him at edge rusher. He could maybe be an impact strong 4-3 LB. Flex once thought Buckner was the best player in the draft. I watched him for 5 plays and said this guy will not have the juice to succeed in the nfl. These remind me of conversations about Scrubshaw. Any bulking will take from cirreas burst. It's just his bodytype. Sure Correa plays harder more polished but outside of burst he has nothing going. Ngakoue when he squares up produces a pop. Correa, nobody will fear his tackles. He is a poor man's version of Broncos young edge rusher Ray. When you have got together with former division1 college playersnon saturday afternoons and feel what pop is behind a hit. And can identify it when you see it on tv. Im not going to get into an explanation of Correa not being a good edge rusher i will say he is not going to be and I will say I told you  so when he fails to make an impact in the nfl

[Winchester]

2 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

I recall reading somewhere that teams didn't like Ngakoue's attitude and that he rolled his eyes at times when teams worked him out privately or at the Combine in ways he didn't like. This illustrates a possible attitude problem that may make him difficult to coach at the next level. 

I actually agree that I like Correa best as a 4-3 SAM but I don't think that's an insult because Von Miller played that role for years and still sorta plays there and is effective there.

I think Correa will be used some as an ILB and OLB after hearing Harbaugh speak on him in one of the pressers. 

His skill set says 4-3 lb or ilb. There are reservations(which i will not get into) about his potential to succeed even there but if I were to bet I would say he will be at least a very good to standout lb. This will not mean I will not root for him to be a standout edge rusher. It is just my opinion he will not be. And I'm usually right in my opinions about players potential and ceiling in the nfl. Of course I prefer him to be a double digit edge rusher and show his skill,potential to do so as arookie

[KBoum]

The Ravens will play a 4-3 Under schemes this season (15%-20% of the time). 65%-70% nickle defense. rest is goalline/dime/quarter (15%)

 

RE - Suggs/ZDS/Judon

DT - Jernigan/Guy/Henry

N - B.Williams/Davis

LE - Kaufusi/ZDS/

W- A.Brown/Orr

M- Mosley

S- Correa/Doom/Ochi

 

Some exemples : 

 

Edited May 6, 2016 by KBoum

[KBoum]

Correa won't face many OTs... they'll adjust the schemes to use a DE like Kaufusi on the outside to clear the path for a SAM like Correa.

Edited May 6, 2016 by KBoum

[KBoum]

In the 4-3 OVER front, Correa will play more a ILB type of role. This schemes allow the Double A Gap blitz, LBs cross Blitz, delayed blitz where Mosley and Correa can blitz and confused the O-Line. Both have the motor to be used in that role.

 

PICTURES ARE FROM BLEACHERREPORT

[ravensdan]

6 hours ago, Winchester said:

His skill set says 4-3 lb or ilb. There are reservations(which i will not get into) about his potential to succeed even there but if I were to bet I would say he will be at least a very good to standout lb. This will not mean I will not root for him to be a standout edge rusher. It is just my opinion he will not be. And I'm usually right in my opinions about players potential and ceiling in the nfl. Of course I prefer him to be a double digit edge rusher and show his skill,potential to do so as arookie

Idk man. I think you are a little off here. With some skills refinement I see him as a versatile olb. Idt he's an off ball lb covering TE etc. I think he can be a good back up edge guy and work his way in to more. His work ethic clearly there. 

[ravensdan]

5 hours ago, KBoum said:

The Ravens will play a 4-3 Under schemes this season (15%-20% of the time). 65%-70% nickle defense. rest is goalline/dime/quarter (15%)

 

RE - Suggs/ZDS/Judon

DT - Jernigan/Guy/Henry

N - B.Williams/Davis

LE - Kaufusi/ZDS/

W- A.Brown/Orr

M- Mosley

S- Correa/Doom/Ochi

 

Some exemples : 

 

What are you basing this on other than your own imagination?

[Darhk_Raven]

1 hour ago, ravensdan said:

Idk man. I think you are a little off here. With some skills refinement I see him as a versatile olb. Idt he's an off ball lb covering TE etc. I think he can be a good back up edge guy and work his way in to more. His work ethic clearly there. 

Who do you think takes over for Upshaw? Do you think he will have a chance down the road?

[JoeyFlex5]

8 hours ago, Darhk_Raven said:

Who do you think takes over for Upshaw? Do you think he will have a chance down the road?

I don't see that skill set from correa. If he were to be a 34OLB I think he is the future heir to suggs. he has held down that spot and been held in such high regards for so long because he isn't just an edge rusher, he's not the best edge setter but he plays the run very well and is extremely instinctive on quick zone drops, I see Correa very much in the same light, I think if we stick with the 34 then the plan is to replace suggs with correa after some coaching and bulking up

[KBoum]

12 hours ago, ravensdan said:

What are you basing this on other than your own imagination?

1. Its a lot easier to adapt the schemes to the personal than the opposite.

2. There were rumors the Ravens wanted to go back to more of a 4-3 type and the 4-3 Under looks a bit like the 3-4 but serve their player they have right now better. This would let Suggs rush the passer and not drop in coverage as much as he's getting older.

3. The way they drafted players. Sure you can say most of them are versatile enough to play both the 3-4 and 4-3. But in my opinion, Correa isn't strong enough to play the 3-4 position yet and face NFL OTs on a regular basis and still set the edge. In the 4-3 Under, he would be most of the time facing the TE. He would still rush the passer, but also use his speed to drop in zone as well and blitz from multiple positions. Kaufusi is another exemple, right now I know he's at 285 but he lacks a bit the power to play DE in a 3-4 schemes. He Bends very well and play very well the 4-3 DE position. He could be a role similar to Chris Long had with the Rams, bigger than Quinn so taking the OT and letting the SAM (Correa) a clear path to the TE or RBs in pass blocking. The 4-3 would also give Jernigan a very good season. He's a 1-gap type of guy and playing the 3-tech in a 4-3 might be the best thing for him. He will be a beast getting in the backfield a lot. Henry is another player that would fit best in that role on passing situations. If there were to give A. Brown one last shot, the 4-3 Weak Side LB is ideal for him.

4. There were also rumors the Ravens are going to run some more Tampa 2 schemes with the addition of Leslie Frazier. Having a very good front 4 is ideal for that type of schemes if you want to make plays. Young is a perfect fit for a zone scheme imo. He attacks and tracks the ball very well in the air. A ferrocious front 4 (with some blitzing LB (Correa- Mosley) will help the secondary a lot. Why do you think the Panthers let Norman go ? Zone corners aren't as valuable as man corner in a 4-3 zome schemes. THe pass rush is the key to the Panthers.

5. I mean that is just what I would do if I was the Ravens D coach. They have all the talent to play the 4-3 right now. Sure the 4-3 Will LB position is a bit unknown right now (thats why I wanted to Ravens to draft 1- Cravens, 2- Vigil 3, Jatavius Brown). They need to add speed to the LBs to cover the TEs/RBs what killed us last year. They could add a training camp cut, maybe move Weddle in the box in a BIG 3 safeties schemes and Brooks/Webb in deep zones. Weddle is very good at covering the hook zones, TEs, RBs. I mean its not a true 4-3 because in todays NFL you need to add speed, and the Will LB is more of a safety who can play the run pretty good.

Edited May 7, 2016 by KBoum

[KBoum]

2 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I don't see that skill set from correa. If he were to be a 34OLB I think he is the future heir to suggs. he has held down that spot and been held in such high regards for so long because he isn't just an edge rusher, he's not the best edge setter but he plays the run very well and is extremely instinctive on quick zone drops, I see Correa very much in the same light, I think if we stick with the 34 then the plan is to replace suggs with correa after some coaching and bulking up

thats the thing, they could have resigned upshaw really cheap. They have no one on their roster to play his role next season thats why I'm almost certain they are going to a 4-3 role. Having a solid edge setter LB is critical in a 3-4 hybrid schemes like the Ravens used to play. Doom wasn't effective in that role. The rotation of Upshaw/Doom was very very good.

[Darhk_Raven]

4 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I don't see that skill set from correa. If he were to be a 34OLB I think he is the future heir to suggs. he has held down that spot and been held in such high regards for so long because he isn't just an edge rusher, he's not the best edge setter but he plays the run very well and is extremely instinctive on quick zone drops, I see Correa very much in the same light, I think if we stick with the 34 then the plan is to replace suggs with correa after some coaching and bulking up

I would agree, I'm just trying to figure out who will fill that void. 

[GrimCoconut]

I think we may hope that Smith steps up and develops into a more complete edge defender in his second year. This would allow us to play Dumervil and Correa behind Suggs or Smith. I think Correa will stay on the field even in 4-3 fronts but I see him at OLB and not 4-3 DE. 

[RaineV1]

2 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

I think we may hope that Smith steps up and develops into a more complete edge defender in his second year. This would allow us to play Dumervil and Correa behind Suggs or Smith. I think Correa will stay on the field even in 4-3 fronts but I see him at OLB and not 4-3 DE. 

I agree. I also think Correa stays on the field in the nickle packege, playing alongside Mosley. As for Smith, I think he'll develop into an every down edge defender that can play DE in four man fronts. He won't be a world beater, but will be above average against the run and the pass.

[GrimCoconut]

1 hour ago, RaineV1 said:

I agree. I also think Correa stays on the field in the nickle packege, playing alongside Mosley. As for Smith, I think he'll develop into an every down edge defender that can play DE in four man fronts. He won't be a world beater, but will be above average against the run and the pass.

Smith played his best as a 4-3 end last year so I don't think that'll be a problem. The real question is if he can play OLB and set the edge against the run. I don't think he set the edge as well as he rushed the passer last year. It even took him time to do that. I do think he's the key, though. If he wasn't a senior last year I think he would've gone very high in this draft. 

[Darhk_Raven]

8 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

I think we may hope that Smith steps up and develops into a more complete edge defender in his second year. This would allow us to play Dumervil and Correa behind Suggs or Smith. I think Correa will stay on the field even in 4-3 fronts but I see him at OLB and not 4-3 DE. 

I was thinking about him being the one to take that spot also. I have high hopes for him in year two, he's been training since about a week after the SB.

 

4 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

Smith played his best as a 4-3 end last year so I don't think that'll be a problem. The real question is if he can play OLB and set the edge against the run. I don't think he set the edge as well as he rushed the passer last year. It even took him time to do that. I do think he's the key, though. If he wasn't a senior last year I think he would've gone very high in this draft. 

I agree he does play better as a 4-3 DE. I think it takes some players a little longer to get used to standing up. If that's what it is, then he should look a lot better as a OLB this season. 

[KBoum]

5 hours ago, Darhk_Raven said:

I was thinking about him being the one to take that spot also. I have high hopes for him in year two, he's been training since about a week after the SB.

 

I agree he does play better as a 4-3 DE. I think it takes some players a little longer to get used to standing up. If that's what it is, then he should look a lot better as a OLB this season. 

 

Well thats the thing, a lot of players are better in 4 men front because thats a better scheme fit. Jernigan, ZDS, A. Brown, Kaufusi, Henry, C. Davis to name a few. I don't see why they would still want to use the 3 men front as much and force their personal into a schemes that don't fit so well right now.

[Darhk_Raven]

2 hours ago, KBoum said:

 

Well thats the thing, a lot of players are better in 4 men front because thats a better scheme fit. Jernigan, ZDS, A. Brown, Kaufusi, Henry, C. Davis to name a few. I don't see why they would still want to use the 3 men front as much and force their personal into a schemes that don't fit so well right now.

We're a 3-4 Hybrid team, so we would play some 4-3 at times. That's how the team operates. Kaufusi was actually a  3-4 DE last year, where he finished second in run stoppage percentage and first in pass-rush productivity according to PFF. So he isn't being forced into a new scheme.