Not Sold on Webb at Safety

[sflegend89]

Anyone else have some serious reservations about Webby starting at safety full time? I know he got some burn there at the end of last season but I'm not really feeling this as a full time move. Regardless of the safety positions being "interchangeable" for us both spots have to be able to come up in run support, that's a given. Webb is listed at 183 lbs, he's always lacked physicality as a corner, now you're talking about moving him to safety where the threshold for physicality is even greater than it is at corner. He's never been adept at run support, if anything he's been below average in the department. Just a smaller frame guy who has a hard time getting off blocks and meeting physical runners head on.

 

I think Webb can handle the coverage aspect at FS, no doubt about that. I just see him struggling at that spot in run support however and that concerns me. Both those safety spots have to be able to come down and clean up messy situations with RB's and even WR's/TE's, your safeties are your last line of defense and it's for that reason that tackling is an imperative part of playing that position in a way it's not at cornerback. 

[ALPHA]

Well you could say the same thing about the second half of Ed Reed's career, we just have to find a way to protect him.

[rmcjacket23]

To be honest, I see the complete opposite.

One of the strongest skill sets Webb has had in his career is his ability to play run support as a corner, and his ability to be physical. One could argue that's attributed to his injury history.

I think he's a good tackler generally and he's good against the run, which should translate well. I'm actually more concerned about his coverage skills on the back end, and in particular, his ability to read plays and not get beat deep.

I'd have to see if somebody has this info, but I'm pretty sure he's graded out pretty well in run coverage in his career. I've never viewed this as a weakness on his part.

Edited April 20, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[rmw10]

Yeah Webb is actually a pretty decent run defender because he can tackle. He may not be the brick wall in run defense, but he knows how to wrap up. He's reliable in that regard. Not perfect of course, but much better than pretty much everyone else in the secondary since he joined us. 

[Kinda_Dante]

11 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Yeah Webb is actually a pretty decent run defender because he can tackle. He may not be the brick wall in run defense, but he knows how to wrap up. He's reliable in that regard. Not perfect of course, but much better than pretty much everyone else in the secondary since he joined us. 

I think Jimmy does a pretty good job of tackling, so idk if I would agree that Webb is better than him but I do agree that the concern is more on Webb's coverage skills rather than run support. I do think that he will be fine though cause he's good at reacting to plays when he can keep them in front of him.

[Maryland]

Like others have said, the difference in tackling as a CB vs tackling as a S is pretty different--that's your main concern. 

However, Webb has always been good in run support as a CB, and he has played safety before (some last year and in college).

[K-Dog]

Webb will do just fine. 

He has good tackling skills, a nose for the ball, and not bad speed. 

 

You are worried about an issue that does not exist. 

[757RavensFan]

My only concern about Webb is his small frame and durability at the FS position. Coming from the back end of the secondary, his tackles will have more speed behind them meaning a bigger/harder collisions.  He probably could stand to put on 10 lbs of muscle.  

Edited April 20, 2016 by 757RavensFan

[Tru11]

hmmm from what i saw webb seems to be a willing tackler.

Heck he seemed to recklessly throw his body around to make a tackle which most likely lead to all those nagging injuries he keeps getting.

I actually hope they use him as the deep centre fielder to keep him from making to many tackles close to the LOS.

[sflegend89]

Look, there's a reason every team that needs help at safety doesn't just convert one of their corners. It's different body types, if they had a safety's body type they would've been drafted to play there in the first place more often than not. There's a reason we drafted Webb to play corner coming out of college even though he played safety at Nichols St. It's because he was too small, not physical enough, not durable enough. None of that has changed. This transition is entirely experimental, people need to take a step back if you're assuming this move will go off without a hitch.

Has Webb been able to knife in low and make some tackles in his career, sure, mostly close to the LOS on ball carriers that haven't accelerated near their top end game speed. Do you want him at safety coming down in run support, probably not. The NFL season is cumulative, the hits you have to make at either safety spot will wear down a small frame guy like Webb. Even guys that are considered small FS's like ET3 have bigger frames, they can take the knocks. I don't think Webb holds up for an entire season at FS, there's a reason teams aren't converting CB's left and right.

[Kinda_Dante]

Other teams not converting their corners might also have to due with the fact that their corners are actually still good at corner.

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, sflegend89 said:

Look, there's a reason every team that needs help at safety doesn't just convert one of their corners. It's different body types, if they had a safety's body type they would've been drafted to play there in the first place more often than not. There's a reason we drafted Webb to play corner coming out of college even though he played safety at Nichols St. It's because he was too small, not physical enough, not durable enough. None of that has changed. This transition is entirely experimental, people need to take a step back if you're assuming this move will go off without a hitch.

Has Webb been able to knife in low and make some tackles in his career, sure, mostly close to the LOS on ball carriers that haven't accelerated near their top end game speed. Do you want him at safety coming down in run support, probably not. The NFL season is cumulative, the hits you have to make at either safety spot will wear down a small frame guy like Webb. Even guys that are considered small FS's like ET3 have bigger frames, they can take the knocks. I don't think Webb holds up for an entire season at FS, there's a reason teams aren't converting CB's left and right.

Well, the main reason teams aren't converting corners to safeties is because there is a finite supply of corners and most teams want like 3 or 4 good one's, which very few teams have. If you are converting a corner to a safety, you now have a role to fill at corner, which most teams would say is harder to find than safeties.

As it were, a lot of teams do convert corners to safeties once they get past the point in their careers when they no longer think they can effective corners.

I don't really see the correlation between body type and safety skills and certainly not tackling skills. The difference between Webb and an Eric Weddle is like one inch and like 10 pounds. If it was really that big of a problem, Webb could just put on weight. For all we know, he might be already.

I suppose you could argue the transition is experimental, though I don't see any way where Webb returns to playing a corner in the NFL. When you consider he's largely been a slot corner, his age has caught up to his ability to do that any longer. So, he's pretty much going to be a safety from here on out, just depends on how good of a safety he is. If he's not any good, he probably won't be around much longer.

[sflegend89]

20 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Well, the main reason teams aren't converting corners to safeties is because there is a finite supply of corners and most teams want like 3 or 4 good one's, which very few teams have. If you are converting a corner to a safety, you now have a role to fill at corner, which most teams would say is harder to find than safeties.

As it were, a lot of teams do convert corners to safeties once they get past the point in their careers when they no longer think they can effective corners.

I don't really see the correlation between body type and safety skills and certainly not tackling skills. The difference between Webb and an Eric Weddle is like one inch and like 10 pounds. If it was really that big of a problem, Webb could just put on weight. For all we know, he might be already.

I suppose you could argue the transition is experimental, though I don't see any way where Webb returns to playing a corner in the NFL. When you consider he's largely been a slot corner, his age has caught up to his ability to do that any longer. So, he's pretty much going to be a safety from here on out, just depends on how good of a safety he is. If he's not any good, he probably won't be around much longer.

 

That's just not a logical statement. You're inferring that all height-weight ratios are created equal when in fact they're not. I use the word "frame" very specifically. If you saw Webb and Weddle stand side by side in real life you would see two distinctly different body types. The number on the scale doesn't tell the story of someone's body composition. You're body composition is entirely genetic, things like bone density, muscle insertion points, ect. play a major role in your durability as an athlete as well as your ability to generate force and your center of gravity. If there is no correlation between body composition and tackling ability then why are the best tacklers in the NFL exclusively LB's/S's, if there is no correlation shouldn't many corners be just as effective tacklers as their larger framed counterparts?

I'm also curious why Webb was drafted to play corner? If he played safety in college, supposedly has the frame to play safety in the NFL, why would we put him through an unnecessary transition to a new position? Was it perhaps that we didn't think he had the frame to play safety in the NFL. My point is just that we shouldn't assume we have a sure fire starter at FS, I'm highly skeptical of the long term success Webb is going to have at FS dealing with the cumulative, physical nature of an NFL season at an even more physically demanding position.

Edited April 20, 2016 by sflegend89

[redrum52]

The league is changing.  Barron and Buchanon came in at S and are now backers.  Mathieu plays S/c.  Things are changing.  If you can cover and tackle, why not ply them at S.  Hell, even Jack is being considered getting burn at S and he's a LB.  Gotta evolve.

 

It'd about what your trying to accomplish on defense and putting your guys where they will succeed.

Edited April 20, 2016 by redrum52

[Kinda_Dante]

7 minutes ago, sflegend89 said:

 

That's just not a logical statement. You're inferring that all height-weight ratios are created equal when in fact they're not. I use the word "frame" very specifically. If you saw Webb and Weddle stand side by side in real life you would see two distinctly different body types. The number on the scale doesn't tell the story of someone's body composition. You're body composition is entirely genetic, things like bone density, muscle insertion points, ect. play a major role in your durability as an athlete as well as your ability to generate force and your center of gravity. If there is no correlation between body composition and tackling ability then why are the best tacklers in the NFL exclusively LB's/S's, if there is no correlation shouldn't many corners be just as effective tacklers as their larger framed counterparts?

I'm also curious why Webb was drafted to play corner? If he played safety in college, supposedly has the frame to play safety in the NFL, why would we put him through an unnecessary transition to a new position? Was it perhaps that we didn't think he had the frame to play safety in the NFL. My point is just that we shouldn't assume we have a sure fire starter at FS, I'm highly skeptical of the long term success Webb is going to have at FS dealing with the cumulative, physical nature of an NFL season at an even more physically demanding position.

I don't think anyone is assuming he's a sure thing, but just pointing out that there is reason to be optimistic. I think you're right about whether he'll hold up or not, but he has shown himself to be a willing tackler, and I think he will be fine in coverage with everything being in front of him.

[sflegend89]

4 minutes ago, redrum52 said:

The league is changing.  Barron and Buchanon came in at S and are now backers.  Mathieu plays S/c.  Things are changing.  If you can cover and tackle, why not ply them at S.  Hell, even Jack is being considered getting burn at S and he's a LB.  Gotta evolve.

 

It'd about what your trying to accomplish on defense and putting your guys where they will succeed.

 

Barron and Buchannon are big dudes, I'd say that again goes to the point of body composition (ie: center of gravity, ability to generate force, ect.) matter more than the number on the scale. I'm all for pushing the envelope, I have no problem with Webb experimenting at FS and seeing if he can make it work. My gripe about this whole transition is now we have Webb acting like a place holder and kinda creating this illusion of a starter. I can envision a scenario where Webb looks competent there in training camp, we feel like we got a starter there, and then when the season starts we get a reality check when Webb can't endure the week-to-week physicality with his small frame and general lack of durability.

[rmw10]

1 hour ago, sflegend89 said:

Look, there's a reason every team that needs help at safety doesn't just convert one of their corners. It's different body types, if they had a safety's body type they would've been drafted to play there in the first place more often than not. There's a reason we drafted Webb to play corner coming out of college even though he played safety at Nichols St. It's because he was too small, not physical enough, not durable enough. None of that has changed. This transition is entirely experimental, people need to take a step back if you're assuming this move will go off without a hitch.

Has Webb been able to knife in low and make some tackles in his career, sure, mostly close to the LOS on ball carriers that haven't accelerated near their top end game speed. Do you want him at safety coming down in run support, probably not. The NFL season is cumulative, the hits you have to make at either safety spot will wear down a small frame guy like Webb. Even guys that are considered small FS's like ET3 have bigger frames, they can take the knocks. I don't think Webb holds up for an entire season at FS, there's a reason teams aren't converting CB's left and right.

No one is expecting a perfect transition, but if there's one thing to criticize with Webb, tackling wouldn't be that.  That's an area where he does really well.

[Deflated Football]

Let's just say I trust Webb over Elam. 

[sflegend89]

Just now, rmw10 said:

No one is expecting a perfect transition, but if there's one thing to criticize with Webb, tackling wouldn't be that.  That's an area where he does really well.

At cornerback close to the LOS, mostly on outside runs and screens. Run support from the safety position is an entirely different animal. When ball carriers are getting to that second level they have a head of steam already, you want a safety that can make them go backwards. Webb isn't that guy, he's a guy who is going to hit you low and throw his body at you, the Matt Elam special. 

Look, I don't want to be right about this. But I can already see the angry posts in the gameday thread.

[rmw10]

5 minutes ago, sflegend89 said:

At cornerback close to the LOS, mostly on outside runs and screens. Run support from the safety position is an entirely different animal. When ball carriers are getting to that second level they have a head of steam already, you want a safety that can make them go backwards. Webb isn't that guy, he's a guy who is going to hit you low and throw his body at you, the Matt Elam special. 

Look, I don't want to be right about this. But I can already see the angry posts in the gameday thread.

It sounds like to me that you just have your mind made up, so no point in debating it any further.

[harfordravenfan]

27 minutes ago, sflegend89 said:

At cornerback close to the LOS, mostly on outside runs and screens. Run support from the safety position is an entirely different animal. When ball carriers are getting to that second level they have a head of steam already, you want a safety that can make them go backwards. Webb isn't that guy, he's a guy who is going to hit you low and throw his body at you, the Matt Elam special. 

Look, I don't want to be right about this. But I can already see the angry posts in the gameday thread.

Many free safeties aren't going to make guys go backwards. Many tie them up and and wait for support or slowly get them down. There job is not to be a thumper, it's to cover deep

[K-Dog]

2 hours ago, sflegend89 said:

 

 

I'm also curious why Webb was drafted to play corner? If he played safety in college, supposedly has the frame to play safety in the NFL, why would we put him through an unnecessary transition to a new position? Was it perhaps that we didn't think he had the frame to play safety in the NFL.

Maybe they thought Ed was doing just fine....

[Bandwagon]

me neither but hey peas

[Winchester]

10 hours ago, sflegend89 said:

 

That's just not a logical statement. You're inferring that all height-weight ratios are created equal when in fact they're not. I use the word "frame" very specifically. If you saw Webb and Weddle stand side by side in real life you would see two distinctly different body types. The number on the scale doesn't tell the story of someone's body composition. You're body composition is entirely genetic, things like bone density, muscle insertion points, ect. play a major role in your durability as an athlete as well as your ability to generate force and your center of gravity. If there is no correlation between body composition and tackling ability then why are the best tacklers in the NFL exclusively LB's/S's, if there is no correlation shouldn't many corners be just as effective tacklers as their larger framed counterparts?

I'm also curious why Webb was drafted to play corner? If he played safety in college, supposedly has the frame to play safety in the NFL, why would we put him through an unnecessary transition to a new position? Was it perhaps that we didn't think he had the frame to play safety in the NFL. My point is just that we shouldn't assume we have a sure fire starter at FS, I'm highly skeptical of the long term success Webb is going to have at FS dealing with the cumulative, physical nature of an NFL season at an even more physically demanding position.

Dude that is exactly what I was going to say. You explained reason 2 players lets use cornerback and safety for example that are the same size yet different levels of strength and physicality. A bunch of guys 230lbs of all muscle are not going to benchpress the same. I am very reserved of Webb at safety.

[RayRocks]

10 hours ago, sflegend89 said:

I'm also curious why Webb was drafted to play corner? If he played safety in college, supposedly has the frame to play safety in the NFL, why would we put him through an unnecessary transition to a new position? Was it perhaps that we didn't think he had the frame to play safety in the NFL. My point is just that we shouldn't assume we have a sure fire starter at FS, I'm highly skeptical of the long term success Webb is going to have at FS dealing with the cumulative, physical nature of an NFL season at an even more physically demanding position.

Well, we had Reed in the prime of his career at FS when we drafted Webb so we had a far bigger need at corner than we did at safety.  Plus, corners are generally more valuable than safeties unless that safety ends up being Ed Reed, Earl Thomas, Troy Polamalu, etc.

[OldToby]

Always been a fan of Webb, I just don't think he can be relied on as a starter anymore. Like someone stated above, I can't see him staying healthy if he is tackling with a full head of steam every other couple of plays. I would rather have weddle at free safety and sign Donte Whitner to play in the box. Whitner plays, and presents himself like a Raven. Would be a good pick up.

[Winchester]

17 minutes ago, Winchester said:

 

I like the idea of signing leon hall for a cheap deal. He is bigger than Webb and has a big 195 lb frame that could hold 205 lbs witb no prob. He is as known for tackling and hard hits as he is coverage. And could be signed for a cheap deal. He was a 4.3 cornerback so even if he lost a step and not blazing fast for a cornerback  he is very fast for a safety. He could be a free agent steal. And it would be so totally cool to take him And convert him to a top notch fs and rub it in the Steelers missed on him although playing in the division and the bungles did not even know what it has in its own pocket. He could be a rod woodson like safety convert. He excelled in off coverage as well and played nickel and slot in cover2 formations when Jones was injured. He has shown all the necessary skills to really be successful as a fs or ss.

[Tru11]

11 hours ago, sflegend89 said:

At cornerback close to the LOS, mostly on outside runs and screens. Run support from the safety position is an entirely different animal. When ball carriers are getting to that second level they have a head of steam already, you want a safety that can make them go backwards. Webb isn't that guy, he's a guy who is going to hit you low and throw his body at you, the Matt Elam special. 

Look, I don't want to be right about this. But I can already see the angry posts in the gameday thread.

Webb most likely will be the Free safety playing deep coverage.

If rbs do manage to make it to him then all complaints should go to the front 7 and not him TBH.

also if he can diagnose the play correct he should be able to get to the RB before they get ahead of steam.

 

[rmcjacket23]

16 hours ago, sflegend89 said:

 

That's just not a logical statement. You're inferring that all height-weight ratios are created equal when in fact they're not. I use the word "frame" very specifically. If you saw Webb and Weddle stand side by side in real life you would see two distinctly different body types. The number on the scale doesn't tell the story of someone's body composition. You're body composition is entirely genetic, things like bone density, muscle insertion points, ect. play a major role in your durability as an athlete as well as your ability to generate force and your center of gravity. If there is no correlation between body composition and tackling ability then why are the best tacklers in the NFL exclusively LB's/S's, if there is no correlation shouldn't many corners be just as effective tacklers as their larger framed counterparts?

I'm also curious why Webb was drafted to play corner? If he played safety in college, supposedly has the frame to play safety in the NFL, why would we put him through an unnecessary transition to a new position? Was it perhaps that we didn't think he had the frame to play safety in the NFL. My point is just that we shouldn't assume we have a sure fire starter at FS, I'm highly skeptical of the long term success Webb is going to have at FS dealing with the cumulative, physical nature of an NFL season at an even more physically demanding position.

LOL, nice try...

1. I'd buy the "body composition" argument except for one very important factor... you are not in any position to determine that. What knowledge could you possibly have about the bone density, muscle insertion points, etc. of ANY Ravens player or maybe even any person walking this planet? I hope you're not seriously making these assertions based on photographs or watching them on TV, because that simply doesn't cut it.

2. What is the basis for saying that the best tacklers in the league are LBs and Safeties? Can you supply the source of that data?

3. I'm not sure who gave you the impression that Webb was the long term future FS of this team, but you are aware he is 30 right? How often do you think 30 year olds, regardless of position (except maybe QB or Kicker) are viewed as the long term future of anything in this league? Ed Reed, probably the greatest FS ever, was largely ineffective by 33-34. He's got two years left on his deal, and I expect that to be his window for playing FS on this team. After that, we likely move on. At best, he's probably a 3-4 year player. 

4. As a FS, he's probably going to be averaging somewhere around 4-5 tackles a game. He's not going to be putting up Daryl Smith-like tackling numbers, where's he outs there getting 8-10 tackles a week. His tackling and "hits" numbers probably won't be deviating a ton from where he's been at most of his career.

5. At the end of the day, for me, its quite simple. Who is in a better position to judge what role Webb should play on this team? The coaching staff of a professional football team... or any fan board poster ever? I'll let you or anybody else answer that one, but there's only one answer. The resume differences between the two is pretty close to the distance between this planet and the Moon.

Plus, there's the easy question... if not him, who?

 

[RavensDieHard21]

Webby is penciled in at Safety for at least one season. If we land a safety or Ramsey that could change quickly. But we need safeties that can cover and Weddle will be able to do that an with Webby no longer having to play CB, he will be able to rely on his great instincts where he will be able to protect the end zone.