Our teams history with its bad luck of WRs

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

3 hours ago, thieverycorporation said:

You rebuttal provides much of the explanation. I'd say Seattle, Colts, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Patriots whom you omitted? Cincy and even the lowly Browns have drafted well at the position. One statement you said has credence as they (other then us) have opted to use early round picks to secure that position and sometimes while double dipping. I'd even give the Ravens a pass if they secured a dual threat RB if they chose not to double dip on receiver. An argument can be made that they did at tightend. But the bucket brigade of chain movers isn't the high octane threat in the red zone needed. Nothing can be said other then the Ravens stink/whiffed on multiple picks and the trend up to date continues. I do agree that Engram Has bested his predecessors. The buck stops with Ozzie regardless. He's the GM and owns all picks. Unless it was another teams developmental player we stood no chance. We can debate or list an itemized list but we probably won't agree. History shouldn't be re written nor a skewed as it what is. If there only method of getting better production is to get outside help so be it. But It's not something Ozzie could possibly want on his Resume. There best player available doesn't ring true. 

Wait - who have NE, Chicago and the Colts drafted (since '08) that have really contributed?

TY Hilton and Alshon I'll give you, but both were 2nd rounders I believe - which we're 1 for 1 as well (not that Torrey is quite on par, though he has at least been more healthy). 

NE has drafted Jeremy Gallon, Aaron Dobson, Josh Boyce, Jeremy Ebert, Taylor Price, Brandon Tate, Matt Slater, and Julian Edelman since '08. Other than Edelman, which again is that ultra rare late rounder - who in that group is worth the jersey their name got printed on? No one... so if you're going to put NE in the group of teams that is better than us at drafting - thats just flat out misinformed.

The bears - same thing. They've drafted Alshon, Kevin White, Marquess Wilson, Juaquin Iglesias, Johnny Knox, Derek Kinder, Earl Bennett, and Marcus Monk. Alshon, ok. 1st round talent that fell to them in early 2nd... and if you're going to give them Kevin White than youve got the give the Ravens Perriman. So both have landed 2 picks, one 1st and one 2nd... but the Bears have missed 2 other top picks and all others have been failures since '08.

And the Browns have hit on Benjamin. Not counting Gordon bc he's given them 1 good season - stretch that year over the 4 they shouldve had from him and hes been garbage bc hes not available. Other than Benjamin their next best pick is Greg Little in the 3rd. Other than that its Vinnie Mayle, Carlton Mitchell, Brian Robiskie, Mohammed Massaquoi, and Paul Hubbard.

And finally Seattle... hit on Golden Tate in the 3rd, and Lockett looks like hes going to pan out... but they also spent high picks on misses Paul Richardson, Chris Harper, and Deon Butler along with Kevin Norwood and Kris Durham.

 

So these teams that I "forgot about" that you have this impression of drafting WR's well just dont. They've hit on 1 or 2 WR's since '08 that they spent higher picks on... and the rest are a bunch of no-name misses. The guys you associate with them are mostly bargain FA's and vet pickups. And again, if you're going to grant Chicago Kevin White, than we get Perriman which puts us right on par with everyone else.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Sorry forgot Colts.. whose hits were Hilton and Garcon really. Dorsett is a 1st round TBD, but didnt meet expectations so far. Moncrief was a mid-round pick who flashed but hasnt done anything. Brazill had some buzz, but flamed out. Collie was strictly a Manning product. But 4 out of 6 are also higher picks, and really only 2 are standouts anyways. I'm sure in a Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck offense, some of our Malletts, Reeds, Deonte's, Streeters, and Harpers wouldve done more too.

[thieverycorporation]

7 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Sorry forgot Colts.. whose hits were Hilton and Garcon really. Dorsett is a 1st round TBD, but didnt meet expectations so far. Moncrief was a mid-round pick who flashed but hasnt done anything. Brazill had some buzz, but flamed out. Collie was strictly a Manning product. But 4 out of 6 are also higher picks, and really only 2 are standouts anyways. I'm sure in a Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck offense, some of our Malletts, Reeds, Deonte's, Streeters, and Harpers wouldve done more too.

Now name the Ravens acquisitions via the draft.

[Winchester]

9 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Wait - who have NE, Chicago and the Colts drafted (since '08) that have really contributed?

TY Hilton and Alshon I'll give you, but both were 2nd rounders I believe - which we're 1 for 1 as well (not that Torrey is quite on par, though he has at least been more healthy). 

NE has drafted Jeremy Gallon, Aaron Dobson, Josh Boyce, Jeremy Ebert, Taylor Price, Brandon Tate, Matt Slater, and Julian Edelman since '08. Other than Edelman, which again is that ultra rare late rounder - who in that group is worth the jersey their name got printed on? No one... so if you're going to put NE in the group of teams that is better than us at drafting - thats just flat out misinformed.

The bears - same thing. They've drafted Alshon, Kevin White, Marquess Wilson, Juaquin Iglesias, Johnny Knox, Derek Kinder, Earl Bennett, and Marcus Monk. Alshon, ok. 1st round talent that fell to them in early 2nd... and if you're going to give them Kevin White than youve got the give the Ravens Perriman. So both have landed 2 picks, one 1st and one 2nd... but the Bears have missed 2 other top picks and all others have been failures since '08.

And the Browns have hit on Benjamin. Not counting Gordon bc he's given them 1 good season - stretch that year over the 4 they shouldve had from him and hes been garbage bc hes not available. Other than Benjamin their next best pick is Greg Little in the 3rd. Other than that its Vinnie Mayle, Carlton Mitchell, Brian Robiskie, Mohammed Massaquoi, and Paul Hubbard.

And finally Seattle... hit on Golden Tate in the 3rd, and Lockett looks like hes going to pan out... but they also spent high picks on misses Paul Richardson, Chris Harper, and Deon Butler along with Kevin Norwood and Kris Durham.

 

So these teams that I "forgot about" that you have this impression of drafting WR's well just dont. They've hit on 1 or 2 WR's since '08 that they spent higher picks on... and the rest are a bunch of no-name misses. The guys you associate with them are mostly bargain FA's and vet pickups. And again, if you're going to grant Chicago Kevin White, than we get Perriman which puts us right on par with everyone else.

Paul Richardson has the makings of a stud when he actually  plays. If you call him an injury bust then so is Perriman so far. Mid to late round receivers are not busts. White shows a ton more skills than perriman. And I wouldn't call Torrey a real hit.If he was a hit he would be a raven. There are rival teams just bad at drafting receivers!! But that in no way excuses the ravens. Least those teams hit on somebody. There are not many teams worse at drafting WRs than the ravens. I would put the patsies as far worse than the ravens at drafting receivers. Cuz of swinging far often!!. The patsies have pretty much emptied their gun on receivers. I know somebody from patsies media and it is a long complicated story why the patsies miss so often on receivers. I do not do mocks but when I lay state to my fav draft mazes. It is going to be receiver laced. That is for sure. I'm soooo far behind looking over college talent this season. Ravens need to have a historical great draft this year! !

[usmccharles]

28 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Paul Richardson has the makings of a stud when he actually  plays. If you call him an injury bust then so is Perriman so far. Mid to late round receivers are not busts. White shows a ton more skills than perriman. And I wouldn't call Torrey a real hit.If he was a hit he would be a raven. There are rival teams just bad at drafting receivers!! But that in no way excuses the ravens. Least those teams hit on somebody. There are not many teams worse at drafting WRs than the ravens. I would put the patsies as far worse than the ravens at drafting receivers. Cuz of swinging far often!!. The patsies have pretty much emptied their gun on receivers. I know somebody from patsies media and it is a long complicated story why the patsies miss so often on receivers. I do not do mocks but when I lay state to my fav draft mazes. It is going to be receiver laced. That is for sure. I'm soooo far behind looking over college talent this season. Ravens need to have a historical great draft this year! !

Paul Richardson has played in 15 games in 14'  and put up under 300 yards, played in 1 game and 40 yards last year: I don't think you can put him and BP in the same boat, whether that be at least Richardson played or that BP will easily out perform those numbers if he plays, which I think he will. 

White should show more skills than BP, he was drafted top ten....

Torrey was a hit, him not being a Raven has nothing to do with it.  It's like saying KO wasn't a hit....I would love to hear you admit that after everything you have said about him.

I do agree the Pats are terrible at drafting WRs, honestly I don't know why they bother because they could just get a hot dog vendor....

As far as the bold, I honestly have no idea what that means. 

[Winchester]

32 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Paul Richardson has played in 15 games in 14'  and put up under 300 yards, played in 1 game and 40 yards last year: I don't think you can put him and BP in the same boat, whether that be at least Richardson played or that BP will easily out perform those numbers if he plays, which I think he will. 

White should show more skills than BP, he was drafted top ten....

Torrey was a hit, him not being a Raven has nothing to do with it.  It's like saying KO wasn't a hit....I would love to hear you admit that after everything you have said about him.

I do agree the Pats are terrible at drafting WRs, honestly I don't know why they bother because they could just get a hot dog vendor....

As far as the bold, I honestly have no idea what that means. 

Torrey was serviceable. By no means a standout receiver. Joe Cool timed and anticipated him very well and maxxed out his only skill. KO the ravens actually wanted and offered nearly 9mil per. Torrey would never of been payed more than barely over $5mil per. Can not believe you actually compared the ravens love for Torrey and KO. Receivers are payed more than guards. Yet KO was offered more $$ by ravens than Torrey actually got on the open market. Torrey was productive but not a hit cuz he left the team wanting a lot more from him. The team hoped hevwould become a complete receiver. But he did not. Ravens wanted to upgrade from Torrey more than have him back!! Torrey will be cut 2 yrs into that contract. Paul was being worked in behind productive starters. He did not see many reps yet. Just when he was getting considerable reps he got injured.

[usmccharles]

8 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Torrey was serviceable. By no means a standout receiver. Joe Cool timed and anticipated him very well and maxxed out his only skill. KO the ravens actually wanted and offered nearly 9mil per. Torrey would never of been payed more than barely over $5mil per. Can not believe you actually compared the ravens love for Torrey and KO. Receivers are payed more than guards. Yet KO was offered more $$ by ravens than Torrey actually got on the open market. Torrey was productive but not a hit cuz he left the team wanting a lot more from him. The team hoped hevwould become a complete receiver. But he did not. Ravens wanted to upgrade from Torrey more than have him back!! Torrey will be cut 2 yrs into that contract. Paul was being worked in behind productive starters. He did not see many reps yet. Just when he was getting considerable reps he got injured.

I was merely comparing the situation of letting a player walk doesn't mean they weren't a hit.  Yes KO is better at his position than Torrey was but by no means was Torrey terrible and im someone who didn't want to resign Torrey, he didn't develop much at all here and he was a good number 2, but that's beside the point.   Strangely, I agree with you on Torrey. 

You seem to have a love for WRs who are studs that have never produced, but COULD produce. Im not saying BP is better than Richardson right now, because BP hasn't played a snap in the NFL, but I do think he will be better. 

[Winchester]

12 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

I was merely comparing the situation of letting a player walk doesn't mean they weren't a hit.  Yes KO is better at his position than Torrey was but by no means was Torrey terrible and im someone who didn't want to resign Torrey, he didn't develop much at all here and he was a good number 2, but that's beside the point.   Strangely, I agree with you on Torrey. 

You seem to have a love for WRs who are studs that have never produced, but COULD produce. Im not saying BP is better than Richardson right now, because BP hasn't played a snap in the NFL, but I do think he will be better. 

Thank you for clearing that up.lol Paul has immense skills but Perriman will be better cuz Paul looks to be injury prone. It is multiple legs with him being injured. I have hopes for breshad but cause for skepticism. I do not try mocks I just lay state to best case scenarios in my opinion. Draft maze is a word for many draft routes. Laced means many receivers in the mix of ideal draft scenarios

[usmccharles]

11 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Thank you for clearing that up.lol Paul has immense skills but Perriman will be better cuz Paul looks to be injury prone. It is multiple legs with him being injured. I have hopes for breshad but cause for skepticism. I do not try mocks I just lay state to best case scenarios in my opinion. Draft maze is a word for many draft routes. Laced means many receivers in the mix of ideal draft scenarios

Yea I think BP's floor is what Torrey was.  I feel like he high points the ball better, he is bigger and hes a different kind of fast than Torrey.  Every since Torrey just let the ball get INT. 

For the record, I have no issue with the way the Ravens approach the WR position.  Getting aging vets have worked out great in the past with Mason, Boldin, SSr.  Obviously I would like us to draft one and develop one, but like I said before we just cant seem to develop a WR to save our lives.  I think us not having a version of Dez, Julio, Green is overblow

[757RavensFan]

On 4/10/2016 at 11:06 AM, Winchester said:

Much of that is cuz the receivers are so darn mediocre. Demarcus Robinson and Kenny lawyer round4 Jay Lee round5. Receiver shopping spree and dump losers like butler givens Matthews and maybe even aiken. He is just the best of scrubs.

Yeah, lets cut the ONLY guy who produced last season.

Ironically, you left Campanaro off your "guys who didn't do much last year who should be cut" list.  Go figure.  

[Cville-Raven]

4 hours ago, 757RavensFan said:

Yeah, lets cut the ONLY guy who produced last season.

Ironically, you left Campanaro off your "guys who didn't do much last year who should be cut" list.  Go figure.  

Aiken still can't get a break man

Edited April 12, 2016 by Cville-Raven

[Cville-Raven]

This got pretty gross quick

[usmccharles]

2 minutes ago, Cville-Raven said:

This got pretty gross quick

Sometimes people need analogies that fit their world to understand....

[Moderator 3]

Since half of our fans are female, could you please skip the sexist analogies?

[ludy51]

While uncomfortable, I don't see how that was "sexist" in any way

[The Mom Gene]

COULD WE PLEASE REFRAIN FROM HAVING POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS ON THE BOARDS?  That is all we are asking folks.

[K-Dog]

5 hours ago, The Mom Gene said:

COULD WE PLEASE REFRAIN FROM HAVING POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS ON THE BOARDS?  That is all we are asking folks.

I vote for that !!!!!


HA !!!!!!!! That's pretty funny !!!!!!! See what I did there ?

I amuse my self.....

[Tank 92]

5 hours ago, The Mom Gene said:

COULD WE PLEASE REFRAIN FROM HAVING POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS ON THE BOARDS?  That is all we are asking folks.

All caps?  Bad Mom, give yourself a warning.   lol

[Ravensfan23]

This was actually a pretty good discussion for a while and I could not only see but agree on points for both sides. 

My answer to the WR issue is a combo of the position being the toughness for young players to adjust(used to be), poor QB play(per 08') and coaching. 

While Flacco could be and should be commended for being able to have continued success with the constant change of OCs, it's almost impossible for young WRs to adapt so easily. How can you develop if you have to learn a new system each year? And for as much as the Ravens said they kept Kubes' system, Trestman's philosophy was all over the offense last season.

For the first time ever(imo) the Ravens have a WR friendly offense. We look at a team like the Steelers and commend them for their drafting of WRs but look at how often they have 4-5 WRs on the field at the same time. I remember seeing a stat during a game when Caldwell took over that showed how the Ravens were in the bottom 3rd of the league in 3WR sets under Cam. So if you are using 4-5 WRs a game, you get those guys more practice time to prep, if you're only planning on using 2 maybe 3 WRs, how do younger guys develop?

I'll probably be in the minority here, but I saw a ton of potential in both Doss and Reed. I thought both guys were vastly misused and under utilized early in their career. As a result they were basically put in make or break opportunities. No way Doss should have be asked to step into Boldin's role after not being given much play time the previous 2 seasons. Reed was a shifty WR with short area quickness, explosion and great balance. Yet he was constantly used as a vertical thread in limited action his first 2 seasons(10',11'). Why? Also in Reed showed really good ability in space but was never used on screens or shallow crosses. He was used on two end arounds in his first 2 seasons and gained 15+ yards on both and was never used again. I can easily see why you'd be excited to draft both those guys.

So did those two guys not develop because they were sorry or did they just not be given a proper opportunity to develop? Now Doss did have a drop issue and Reed fumbled twice but neither is the chief reason they aren't here imo. 

Both guys basically came from the spread like offense that Trestman is using now. I wonder if either guy would have given the Ravens a greater return if they were apart of the Trestman/Engram regime. Instead of the run, run and hope a WR can make a play on 3rd and long regimes we've had before. Those offenses weren't WR friendly at all.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

20 hours ago, Winchester said:

Paul Richardson has the makings of a stud when he actually  plays. If you call him an injury bust then so is Perriman so far. Mid to late round receivers are not busts. White shows a ton more skills than perriman. And I wouldn't call Torrey a real hit.If he was a hit he would be a raven. There are rival teams just bad at drafting receivers!! But that in no way excuses the ravens. Least those teams hit on somebody. There are not many teams worse at drafting WRs than the ravens. I would put the patsies as far worse than the ravens at drafting receivers. Cuz of swinging far often!!. The patsies have pretty much emptied their gun on receivers. I know somebody from patsies media and it is a long complicated story why the patsies miss so often on receivers. I do not do mocks but when I lay state to my fav draft mazes. It is going to be receiver laced. That is for sure. I'm soooo far behind looking over college talent this season. Ravens need to have a historical great draft this year! !

I never said mid to late round WRs were busts... But until they do something they're not hits. If they don't go into a teams drafting ability than you absolutely can't knock the Ravens bc since '08 we've only drafted 1 WR in the top 2 rounds that we can evaluate and he was a hit. 

And you're right, pointing out other teams that suck at drafting receivers doesn't make the Ravens good at it... But proving that the teams who mostly get recognized at being very good at drafting receivers actually aren't bc all of them only have 1 maybe 2 successes as well... And those successes were top picks which until we can evaluate Perriman were 1 for 1 there.

it proves that overall drafting WR's is a crap shoot and outside of drafting top prospects with high picks no team hits with any frequency... And since the ravens haven't had many, if any chances to draft top rated receivers, it's absolutely misguided to say they've failed or can't do it. 

We have no more success doing it than other teams, but we also haven't been worse than even the teams who have a reputation for drafting them well.

and until anyone can show a teams history of drafting receivers and a consistency in hitting not just top picks but middle to late rounds there's just no basis for it. 

The Steelers are one team that have had repeatable and consistent success... But they've invested a ton of top picks to do it. But since they also have a couple notable hits in later rounds I'll concede that they're much better at it than the Ravens. 

But otherwise, you can say were bad at it.. But then so is the entire NFL. And if that's the case that just helps the case that evaluating college receivers isn't a science. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

22 hours ago, thieverycorporation said:

Now name the Ravens acquisitions via the draft.

I did in the first post on the previous page. 

Its not really worse or better than any of the others. We missed on pretty much all of the mid to late picks - just like everyone else. 

And we hit on Torrey our only top round pick that we can evaluate. Just like most everyone else. 

Perriman is TBD and honestly if he becomes a legit #1 guy then were right on par with the teams you claimed to be so much better at drafting receivers. 

Its completely false to say were far worse than other teams at drafting receivers. If you want to say we don't have success that's fair - but neither does the NFL. 

The Steelers do. They're the one. But pretty much everyone has 1 or 2 hits but only when investing a top pick. Outside of an Antonio Brown here and an Edelman there (and maybe a Camp which again would help the case that were actually good at it) which only happens a couple times a decade... Like finding a Brady or Romo... No one really has any consistent success drafting receivers outside of top picks.  

[ALPHA]

Twice we've had the opportunity to trade peanuts for Brandon Marshall and never pulled the trigger.